My players were fighting an Earth Elemental and they tripped it.
I had it burrow from prone and glide elsewhere, ending the move standing above ground. The question came up as to how it worked with AOOs.
1) Should the players around it get an AOO when it burrowed out of threatened areas?
2) Should the players around it when it surfaced in a threatened area?
3) Should either group get AOOs for it standing up (or was that part of its burrowing action, effectively letting it stand up for free)?
I said no, no, no (part of the burrowing) and tabled the issue for future consultation (and here we are).
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My players were fighting an Earth Elemental and they tripped it.
I had it burrow from prone and glide elsewhere, ending the move standing above ground. The question came up as to how it worked with AOOs.
1) Should the players around it get an AOO when it burrowed out of threatened areas?
2) Should the players around it when it surfaced in a threatened area?
3) Should either group get AOOs for it standing up (or was that part of its burrowing action, effectively letting it stand up for free)?I said no, no, no (part of the burrowing) and tabled the issue for future consultation (and here we are).
1) They get an AOO when it leaves a threatened area.
2) Not sure what you are asking.
3) It can effectively stand up without an AOO while in earthgllide. It still takes an action to do so but it can do that.
1) They get an AOO when it leaves a threatened area.
2) Not sure what you are asking.
3) It can effectively stand up without an AOO while in earthgllide. It still takes an action to do so but it can do that.
1) It drops down into the earth, gliding downwards, to become untargetable. Then it moved away from the players' threatened area. Ergo it was no longer attackable by the players when it would have normally provoked AOOs. Or at least this is how I thought of it.
2) It is the same as 1, just in reverse. It glides under the ground, through your square, and then rises up out of the earth to stand next to you. Does the rising up out of the ground provoke an AOO (corollary: does sinking into the ground provoke an AOO)?
3a) Is this part of the burrowing move action or should it have to take two moves: First to burrow, second to stand, and thus have to wait for the next round to burrow out and act?
3b) If it burrows while prone, is it considered crawling?
Earth elementals can be tripped?
I saw no rules saying that it cannot be tripped. It can't be critted, stunned, poisoned, bled, sneak attacked, or flanked but it can be tripped (while not easy, the enlarged cleric did roll something like a 19).
This is... a bit of a tricky situation, but I can really see it going both ways.
First, in terms of players, they used a good strategy against a foe that seems like it would be vulnerable to, and had that completely negated, so I can see that it could be a source of frustration.
Second, because of the nature of earth glide, I'm going to guess that could "stand up" for free as part of its move, even though I don't think that's RAW. From RAW, I'd say that it presents itself for AoOs in all of those situations, even if it doesn't exactly make the most sense.
Third, basically what it got here was a free, short-range teleport, which is truly frustrating for a GM.
Here's how I would rule it:
1) AoO when it burrowed, but with cover (last-ditch attempts to "get it" while it's disappearing) but no AoOs during its movement (as it's not in range and thus not targetable)
EDIT: 1a) The reason it gets cover is that parts of it that they are targeting are literally disappearing before their eyes - what they target may suddenly not be there when they do so.
2) Second initiative check when it surfaced elsewhere - it basically took itself out of combat and dropped what amounts to a surprise attack on players. This could result in it getting one or two of them flat-footed with its attacks. I'd probably call for an impromptu spot check against a stealth (with a +8 modifier) or a straight DC (around 25) - failed checks yield the players being flat-footed, success allows initiative to see if they're flat-footed or not. If they win the initiative, then AoOs as it comes out.
EDIT: 2a) I would not give it cover in this case because it's coming out of the ground, not sinking into it, and they're reacting by seeing it appear, not disappear. I'd also make it flat-footed, though I don't think that changes much in this case.
3) No, much like you can't meaningfully trip a fish in the water (it could simply "right" itself) the earth elemental's earth glide ability covers this.
Now, these rules wouldn't be RAW, but that's how I'd do it: it would have allowed their tactics to have some effect, but allowed it to use its abilities to great effect, and allow them to still have a chance to counter it.
1) Should the players around it get an AOO when it burrowed out of threatened areas?
Yes, it left a threatened square, so the AoO would happen in the current square just before it leaves it (to burrow down).
2) Should the players around it when it surfaced in a threatened area?
No, the characters are unable to threaten squares underground for a variety of reasons. Remember, you provoke for leaving a threatened area, not entering one.
3) Should either group get AOOs for it standing up (or was that part of its burrowing action, effectively letting it stand up for free)?
Technically? By pure, legalistic RAW, it would need to stand up as a move action, not as part of its other move action, and yes, if it stood up before or after it's move, it would provoke when it stood. Alternatively, it could have moved underground as a move action and stood up as a second action, then next turn burrow back up to fight.
By all logic and RAI, though? The Earth Elemental could just Earthglide in such a direction that it ends up no longer prone when it's done, so no, it would not provoke.
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I want to be clear. The elemental was prone in a threatened square, right?
If so, when he started to leave it he provoked an AOO. No modifiers, no cover.
Keep in mind that an attack of opportunity occurs before the provoking action. So the prone elemental gets ready to earth glide. Characters who threaten the square see an opening in its defenses and attack (AOO). Then the elemental glides down.
1) If the Earth Elemental performed a full withdraw action, the first square doesn't count as threatened, so leaving that square wouldn't provoke. If it didn't full withdraw, then it provokes as normal.
2) Movement provoke from leaving a threatened square, not entering it. While the Elemental is burrowing, it has full cover and is not threatened. So when it surfaces it's not leaving a threatened square, so no AoO.
3)Prone isn't a condition Earth Elementals have to worry about while burrowing, anymore than a swimming or flying creature. They can't be tripped and can't be prone while burrowing. The Earth Elemental can also begin burrowing while prone, just as a creature can begin flying or swimming from prone.
EvilMinion, I totally agree that my ruling isn't RAW - I just mean that, for the other basic effects of cover than AoOs, it behaves like cover.
Also a few points were brought up that I hadn't thought of. So it looks like leaving should provoke, but arriving shouldn't. I'd still rule it basically the same way, however.
3)Prone isn't a condition Earth Elementals have to worry about while burrowing, anymore than a swimming or flying creature. They can't be tripped and can't be prone while burrowing. The Earth Elemental can also begin burrowing while prone, just as a creature can begin flying or swimming from prone.
Ok, so, let me say up front that I would never rule this by RAW--I would do as you said, that the Earth Elemental can just stand without problem (I doubt I'd ever allow it to be knocked prone in the first place, actually).
But by pure RAW, what stops a creature that is swimming or flying from having the Prone condition?
"A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks."
I don't see anything in there about not applying to flying or swimming characters. Why couldn't a swimming character be "prone" and take those bonuses/penalties? By the rules, I mean, not by actual logic.
Because there's nothing that can be done to cause them to become "prone" in a three-dimensional plane (which swimming and flying take place in a 3D plane). Effectively, they're immune to ever getting into that situation in the first place, so they're never subject to it.
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The description of 'Trip' from the combat chapter:
'Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.' (bolding mine)
So by RAW, you can't trip a flying creature. If you think about that, you can also surmise that you can't trip a swimming or burrowing creature - I mean, how would that even work? They're not standing up, so tripping is a no-go.
Also, as people before me have said, the elemental would provoke an AoO for leaving the threatened square, unless it took the withdraw action. It should probably count as prone for the AoO, too.
Once it's in the earth, though, prone has no meaning. It can pop out anywhere else and be right-side up again.
Thanks everyone, you make good points. I think the only thing I did wrong was allowing the elemental, in one turn, to go from prone in one threatened square to standing in another threatened square and attack someone without allowing the first group any AOOs.
Popping up into a threatened square doesn't provoke, and we seem to agree. Also it seems generally acceptable to have earthglide let the elemental stand up as part of the 'swimming through earth' concept.
Either I should have allowed AOOs when it left the starting position, then moved, surfaced, and attacked OR had it perform a withdrawal from the threatened square and wait until the next round to surface and attack.
As far as I can tell, there's no rule that says you can't walk while prone. It's just one of those common sense things, like, when you're dead, you fall down.
Going by the last line of the trip entry, and a little common sense, it's not hard to justify that creatures moving in 3-space can't be tripped or fall prone.
I would still allow a Earth Elemental standing on the ground to be tripped. Earth Elementals are typically depicted with legs, and the prone condition would affect them in other ways while on the ground, they can just burrow from prone. An Earth Elemental standing on metal, though, wouldn't be able to burrow at all.
Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.' (bolding mine).
Again, Devils Advocating the RAW position here (as I would never rule this way myself), but just because they can't be tripped does not mean they can't be prone. It just means that you can't use the most common means of knocking someone prone.
Sometimes RAW is silly.
1) Unless it withdrew, I would grant Attacks of Opportunity when it left the first threatened square. After that, it was in the ground and had total cover - so no more AoO's.
2) I would not grant an AoO to characters around it when it surfaced, because it had total cover when it left the underground square.
3) Standing up from prone provokes, but cover negates AoO's. Depends where it was when standing up. Standing up for free while earth gliding - makes sense, GM's fiat.
There are other ways of making creatures prone, but in a 3D environment, there's nothing that would allow those other effects to come about, that I can think of. It's more of a matter of "it's not possible to make them prone because there's nothing to make them prone against" than anything else.
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Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.' (bolding mine).Again, Devils Advocating the RAW position here (as I would never rule this way myself), but just because they can't be tripped does not mean they can't be prone. It just means that you can't use the most common means of knocking someone prone.
Sometimes RAW is silly.
"Prone: The character is lying on the ground."
That's RAW, too. Are you suggesting that a flying character 30,000 feet up in the air can decide to throw themselves prone, travel 30,000 feet in an eyeblink and arrive on the ground below instantaneously, simply because of the way prone is worded?
How about we combine the wording of the prone condition and the ability to drop prone?
'Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.'
'Prone: The character is lying on the ground'
It follows that if there is no ground in your space, you cannot throw yourself prone. If you also can't be tripped, how are you to become prone?
EDIT: The word prone has now lost all meaning for me. Prone. Proneproneprone.
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Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.' (bolding mine).Again, Devils Advocating the RAW position here (as I would never rule this way myself), but just because they can't be tripped does not mean they can't be prone. It just means that you can't use the most common means of knocking someone prone.
Sometimes RAW is silly.
"Prone: The character is lying on the ground."
That's RAW, too. Are you suggesting that a flying character 30,000 feet up in the air can decide to throw themselves prone, travel 30,000 feet in an eyeblink and arrive on the ground below instantaneously, simply because of the way prone is worded?
How about we combine the wording of the prone condition and the ability to drop prone?
'Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.'
'Prone: The character is lying on the ground'
It follows that if there is no ground in your space, you cannot throw yourself prone. If you also can't be tripped, how are you to become prone?
EDIT: The word prone has now lost all meaning for me. Prone. Proneproneprone.
Just to continue the silly, Is an earthgliding thing prone? After all, it is laying in the ground. And if an earthgliding thing decided to "drop prone" would it pop up to the surface, laying down?
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Just to continue the silly, Is an earthgliding thing prone? After all, it is laying in the ground. And if an earthgliding thing decided to "drop prone" would it pop up to the surface, laying down?Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.' (bolding mine).Again, Devils Advocating the RAW position here (as I would never rule this way myself), but just because they can't be tripped does not mean they can't be prone. It just means that you can't use the most common means of knocking someone prone.
Sometimes RAW is silly.
"Prone: The character is lying on the ground."
That's RAW, too. Are you suggesting that a flying character 30,000 feet up in the air can decide to throw themselves prone, travel 30,000 feet in an eyeblink and arrive on the ground below instantaneously, simply because of the way prone is worded?
How about we combine the wording of the prone condition and the ability to drop prone?
'Drop Prone
Dropping to a prone position in your space is a free action.'
'Prone: The character is lying on the ground'
It follows that if there is no ground in your space, you cannot throw yourself prone. If you also can't be tripped, how are you to become prone?
EDIT: The word prone has now lost all meaning for me. Prone. Proneproneprone.
Even better while swimming. You shoot down to the ocean floor in the space of a free action! Just don't try this over an undersea trench, or you're likely to explode from the pressure.
My players were fighting an Earth Elemental and they tripped it.
I had it burrow from prone and glide elsewhere, ending the move standing above ground. The question came up as to how it worked with AOOs.
1) Should the players around it get an AOO when it burrowed out of threatened areas?
2) Should the players around it when it surfaced in a threatened area?
3) Should either group get AOOs for it standing up (or was that part of its burrowing action, effectively letting it stand up for free)?I said no, no, no (part of the burrowing) and tabled the issue for future consultation (and here we are).
Some things to consider.
Note: Burrow and earth glide aren't the same thing; I'd recommend against using them interchangeably. But the same conclusions apply to both in this case.
I'd treat it like any other movement, and if it just moves out of combat, as a withdraw action. A withdraw action does not provoke an AoO so long as you don't move out of any threatened square except that first one. You can use any movement mode you have listed for the withdraw action.
Surfacing somewhere else is perfectly valid, even into a threatened square, but since withdraw is a full-round action the elemental could not attack. If it did, it would "magically" provoke AoOs at the threatened square it left int he first place (I hate when players do this, since it breaks versimilitude to rewind back to where they were before they did the stuff they did and to replay an attack).
Now, because it's burrowing or using earth glide, you have to consider something. If the elemental is larger than medium and it surfaces into a threatened square, it really should provoke an AoO unless it only surfaces half way.
It would provoke because, thinking in terms of cubes rather than squares, it moves into that 5-foot cube that's threatened, and then that part moves out of the cube as the rest of it moves out of the ground.
It's no different than a large creature moving sideways; as the first part enters a threatened square, you don't get an AoO, but then it exits that threatened square and enters another.
A medium or small elemental would not have that problem, since it effectively fits into the 5-foot cube (more or less).