This is always the part of Round 1 I dread the most. I've stated elsewhere that last year it felt like I spent as much time working out the price of the item as I did creating the item itself. While we have a table that gives general guidelines, it seems like pricing is less of a mathematical endeavor and more of an exercise in creative guesswork. Just looking at the listings of wondrous items in the Core Rulebook seems to support this, as there are plenty of items that don't follow the math on the table.
Example:
Boots of Teleportation vs. the Helm of Teleportation. Two items that do the exact same thing the exact number of times per day at the same caster level. Yet the latter has 150% the price of the former. Now I remember that in 3.5 there was a chart showing how items with certain powers were tied to a certain item slot location, and that it cost more to put those powers in an item kept in a different slot. Yet there's no mention of that in the PF Core. People coming to PF without a solid 3.5 background are likely to be confused.
There are others I've come across where I try to do the math and end up just scratching my head.
Why am I posting this? I suppose partially to vent my frustration at this part of the creative process. I also wouldn't be adverse to hearing the thoughts of others on this portion of the process. Heck, if one of the judges wants to throw their two coppers worth in as well, I might do a cartwheel.
Hey Shadowborn,
I'm not a judge (by any stretch) but this is something I felt I could "commiserate" with you about.
I remember my first time trying out, and I was lost with the entire "pricing" issue. I talked with a good friend of mine (who I felt was more knowledgeable or comfortable with the item creation rules) and he came up with the very thing you say here in your own post ... this is an exercise in creative guesswork rather than a mathematical endeavor. (I forget how my buddy phrased it exactly... but I do recall he started out by saying to me, "You're going to LOVE this..."). ;)
In later years I've come up with a "formula" that works for me (and it is basically comparing my item against something in the Core Rulebook) and I've found that, this works for me. (Although having said all that, I haven't been chosen ... yet... but in all my "feedback requests" I haven't been flat-out told I was priced to high or to low... well, my Diadem of the Void was pretty high... but badly written... I think I have gotten better since then. :P
Hopefully I'll see how much better in a month and a half.
I also hope someone of more authority comes along to truly give a better answer to your question.
Dean
Marathon Voter Season 6
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If you know the base items really well, I find going through the 3 lists of wondrous items (p497-499) really helpful as a gauge. Keep going down the list in gp order until you start coming to items that make you think they might be more valuable for your character than your Superstar item. Then when you hit an item that makes you go "yeah, that one's better than mine", you have your gp range. Sit it in the middle of that range and chances are the judges will just nod the head thinking "that's about right". If the number you calculate falls in that range, feel free to use it.
I think where people do run into trouble is when they calculate it precisely and then think it must be correct when in fact it fails the above test completely. Those are the ones that make the judges go "the price on this is wrong".
However, in the RPG Superstar seminar, the judges made particular note that pricing had never got an entry into top 32 or forced an item out of top 32. As long as the order of magnitude seems correct, they are more interested in the item itself.
I think the monster and stat-block round is where they are going to put the entries through the mathematical ringer (or Sean's excel monster document).
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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However, in the RPG Superstar seminar, the judges made particular note that pricing had never got an entry into top 32 or forced an item out of top 32. As long as the order of magnitude seems correct, they are more interested in the item itself.
That section makes me feel a bit better about my entry, at least.
Oooooooo, I think I may have goofed. I can't say why though, and that irks me because I wanna know!
Hey Shadowborn,
I'm not a judge (by any stretch) but this is something I felt I could "commiserate" with you about.
I remember my first time trying out, and I was lost with the entire "pricing" issue. I talked with a good friend of mine (who I felt was more knowledgeable or comfortable with the item creation rules) and he came up with the very thing you say here in your own post ... this is an exercise in creative guesswork rather than a mathematical endeavor. (I forget how my buddy phrased it exactly... but I do recall he started out by saying to me, "You're going to LOVE this..."). ;)
In later years I've come up with a "formula" that works for me (and it is basically comparing my item against something in the Core Rulebook) and I've found that, this works for me. (Although having said all that, I haven't been chosen ... yet... but in all my "feedback requests" I haven't been flat-out told I was priced to high or to low... well, my Diadem of the Void was pretty high... but badly written... I think I have gotten better since then. :P
Hopefully I'll see how much better in a month and a half.
I also hope someone of more authority comes along to truly give a better answer to your question.
Dean
Not a judge? No cartwheel for you, then.
By the time I was done with the pricing of my submission last year, I was comfortable with the price compared to the power of the item. Still, if you asked me this year how I got the cost for the item, I don't think I could do the math for you. In the end, it just felt right.
I'm not even sure I asked a question, did I? *shrug* Anyway, thanks for the reply.
If you know the base items really well, I find going through the 3 lists of wondrous items (p497-499) really helpful as a gauge. Keep going down the list in gp order until you start coming to items that make you think they might be more valuable for your character than your Superstar item. Then when you hit an item that makes you go "yeah, that one's better than mine", you have your gp range. Sit it in the middle of that range and chances are the judges will just nod the head thinking "that's about right". If the number you calculate falls in that range, feel free to use it.
Sounds like a good way of going about it, and it seems no less sound than the mental contortions of calculating things via the table.
However, in the RPG Superstar seminar, the judges made particular note that pricing had never got an entry into top 32 or forced an item out of top 32. As long as the order of magnitude seems correct, they are more interested in the item itself.
I've heard this mentioned elsewhere. I'm glad of that. Still, it is RPG Superstar. If I don't put a full effort into the whole process, I won't feel like I'm really putting my best forward.
I think the monster and stat-block round is where they are going to put the entries through the mathematical ringer (or Sean's excel monster document).
Thankfully, I'm much more sure of my monster crafting abilities and making creature stat-blocks. So if I make it into the Top 32, I'm ready.
We had a good discussion about this in the PaizoCon RPG Superstar chat. I think we all agreed it doesnt have to be perfect or even exact.
I told my first test is to just gut check it against other items on the magic item pricelist. If your item is 100,000gp then it better sit with this group:
76 Mantle of spell resistance 90,000 gp
77 Mirror of opposition 92,000 gp
78 Strand of prayer beads, greater 95,800 gp
79 Manual of bodily health +4 110,000 gp
80 Manual of gainful exercise +4 110,000 gp
81 Manual of quickness in action +4 110,000 gp
82 Tome of clear thought +4 110,000 gp
83 Tome of leadership and influence +4 110,000 gp
84 Tome of understanding +4 110,000 gp
85 Amulet of the planes 120,000 gp
So once you price your item, try to slide it in the price list and see if that seems ballpark to you. I guarantee you this: we won't try to do the math. There are too many items. We will comment on ones that stick out as over- or under-priced.
Here's all 4 judges on pricing. We talk about it in the So You Want to be a Superstar panel discussion at PaizoCon 2011. Link is in the first post.
Pricing is at about 36 minutes.
One really important consideration is to get an accurate assessment of how powerful your item really is. Without that, your comparisons to other items won't be helpful. We've often seen the judges realize that an item or an ability is in a whole different league than what the contestant probably thought (this was very prominant in the archetype round last year).
So good rules of thumb are:
- Be aware of how changes to spell-like effects might make the effect more or less powerful. Look for other items that have made comparable adjustments, and see how that affected their pricing. (For example, eyes of charming demonstrates that raising a spell effect's DC really does require raising the spell level accordingly.)
- Try to look for upper and lower bounds of spells that could recreate a similar effect, even if they're much more/less powerful. If you're using time stop to keep your food fresh, that doesn't mean it should be priced as a CL 17 effect. If somebody could recreate your item's effects by buying several cheaper existing items, or if somebody could use your item to recreate some much more expensive item, then you know you've got a problem.
- For odd use limitations, it can be helpful to get a good idea of how much one use might be worth (comparing to other single-use effects), and then adjusting for how frequently it can be used. This can be less confusing than trying to price both the effect and the use limits together.
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I really can't stress enough the importance of doing your homework on topics such as these. And by that, I mean the link Clark's given you to the "So You Want To Be A Superstar" recording from PaizoCon. We shared all kinds of insights into the wondrous item design process. Both what you should do, what you shouldn't do, and a lot about how the judges assess each submission. If you haven't listened to that panel discussion, you're missing out.
As for the impact pricing can have on Keeping or Rejecting an entry, I can say from my limited experience as a judge so far that I do recall an item or two that we rejected primarily on pricing. That's because they were over 300,000 gp...an amount that completely overshoots the entire wondrous item list in the Core Rulebook.
Additionally, I've seen items get called out for being so underpriced that it's ridiculous. I mean, when you invest a game changing power with a high-level spell effect woven through it and you set the price at a measely 2,000 gp, thereby granting it to every low-level hero, you've screwed up pretty royally and don't understand game balance, much less the pricing of wondrous items.
So, per the advice Clark gave in the Superstar panel, we're not so much concerned that you get the pricing "right" as we just don't want to see anyone who gets it "wrong." What does "wrong" mean? Exactly those two examples above. Aside from that, you should follow all the other advice we've given. Here's my own personal process:
1) Do the math according to the table to set a baseline (i.e., the "science" of wondrous item pricing)
2) Compare your item to other wondrous items on the price list to see if it's reasonable (i.e., the "art" of wondrous item pricing).
3) Go back and tweak if something seems out of whack.
Now, there are other considerations you also need to keep in mind beyond those basics, but I don't think the judges will necessarily go any more in-depth than whatever number you come up with as long as it meets this simple process. But, if you're interested in more complex stuff, here you go:
Advanced Considerations For Wondrous Item Pricing:
You also need to compare your item's price to what level a PC would need to be (according to the Wealth By Level table elsewhere in the Core Rulebook) to see if that item would be a "good buy" for them. By that, I mean, if the item produces an effect that's more easily achieved by such a PC with a spell he'll readily have available almost all the time...or won't come up all that often...then he's probably going to always buy something other than your item with his hard-earned gold, because it's a far better value for him.
Or, if that same PC can buy up enough scrolls or potions (or even wands) to do pretty much what your item allows him to do, but he can buy those other things far more cheaply than your item, you've pretty much priced it wrong and need to adjust accordingly. You also need to reconsider if your item is just a SIAC if this situation exists, as that's exactly what potions, scrolls, and wands are. So, if they're able to duplicate what your item does, you're entering SIAC territory.
Also, if your item produces an effect with a really low DC, you've got to consider the "power level" of the creatures and NPCs your character might use that item on. If those creatures and NPCs can easily and routinely beat the DC, once again it's not going to be an item that your character will want. Instead, he'll always be selling it rather than keeping it...because, it's pretty much useless to him. Items that run into those kinds of problems need to be priced lower...thereby pushing them further down the wondrous item price list so lower-level PCs can acquire them at a point in their adventuring careers where the item's effects would still be relevant.
When you see items in the Core Rulebook that don't seem priced "right" according to the math of the wondrous item pricing rules, it's often because of these exact reasons. This is most assuredly the "art" of wondrous item pricing. And you can bet the original game designers looked across the entirety of the game and the balance between character power levels, wealth levels, an item's in-game effect vs. creatures in a certain CR range those characters would likely be facing, and they deemed they needed to slide the price up or down a bit to make it harmonize better with everything else that's in the game.
I don't mind sharing this stuff here, because the judges already gave away these insights in the panel discussion. So, anyone who's already submitted had that same information available to them. And, if they did their homework, hopefully they applied what they could when pricing their item. For anyone else, you now have it spelled out here as well as the recording Clark linked to above.
My two cents,
--Neil
You also need to compare your item's price to what level a PC would need to be (according to the Wealth By Level table elsewhere in the Core Rulebook) to see if that item would be a "good buy" for them.
+1
I was reading this thread, and was so surprised that nobody had mentioned this detail that I was about to write up a post not dissimilar to yours. Glad to see someone more expert than I do it, you're less likely to make silly mistakes. ;)
*cartwheels*
Ha! I sent my entry in an hour before this thread posted. Bummer, as there's some great advice here. Think I'm okay, but I suppose the judges will be the judge of that.
judge judge judge judge
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There's a lot of unevenness in the item pricing in the CRB, but there's some ways to navigate through it. Here's some fairly specific advice I would have:
When you create an item, you have a pretty good idea what would be the ideal level for a character to own it. This is usually within +/- 2 of the CL of the item. Then, look up the most expensive "big 6" item that the character can be safely assumed to possess at that level. This sets a soft floor that you probably should not go below, simply because of the way big6 items tend to be priced.
Then double the cost of that big6 item. This sets a hard ceiling for how expensive your item can be. Reason being: if adventurers find your item as loot, and they could sell it to buy their next big6, they'll do that every time. You want to remove that choice.
The CRB charges a lot extra for unrelated effects, and we should follow that lead. If your item is capable of doing things that are revelant in different situations/applications, it needs to be near the higher end of the scale.
(An item that casts both Bull's Str and Enlarge on you would be "the same situation"; whereas an item that casts Bull's Str and See Invis would be "different situations.")
After all of this, put the PC spin on it. "If I found this as loot, and the magimart was nearby, would I hawk it?" Divorce yourself from how "cool" your item is, and just judge it on power and usefulness. Make sure to doc the price severely if it only has niche or situation-dependant usefulness. Look at a Paizo AP and ask yourself "what percentage of encounters could I use this on?"
Therefore, I would strongly advise of developing outside of your level range. If you only have depth of experience PCing (not GMing, but PCing) up to 8th level, then don't design an item for 12th level characters. You haven't developed the intuition, and your perspective is all wrong.
Hope that helps!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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We'll do what I always do, Sarah Jane. Improvise* - The third Doctor.**
And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner. - Captain Hector Barbossa
Ok, snark aside, the guidelines are just that, especially if you get into the "non-standard" items. My guideline is similar to Clark's.
Figure best you can the price of X
Find the closest 'best' items of that price range.
Ask your fellow players. If you had the money, would you buy X, or Y for your character?
If they all say X you're too cheep. If they all say Y, you're too high.
"Loyalty is no longer the currency of the realm. I'm afraid that currency is the currency of the realm." - Lord Cutler Beckett.
*
**
Ever notice how we call the originals "The first doctor, the Second Doctor, etc." but the new ones get the shorthand "Ten" and "Eleven"?
I use the full titles for the new ones. Christopher Eccleston deserves no less.
Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm feeling more comfortable with the item pricing now. Special thanks to Clark and Neil.
+1 to this thread!
I just finished the item pricing for my entry and this thread really helped me get some perspective. Last year my submission followed a good chunk of the table on magic item pricing so it was easy enough to follow the formulas, at least as easy as item creation stuff can be. :-) This year's item is a lot more "free-form" and this thread really helped me nail down where I think the price should be. Here's hoping the judges happen to agree with me.
The main thing is hoping we don't disagree with you. We may not agree you got the pricing right, but you certainly don't want us all agreeing you got it wrong.
That's always the case, isn't it. Right is only marginally important - you just don't want to be *wrong*. ;)
The main thing is hoping we don't disagree with you. We may not agree you got the pricing right, but you certainly don't want us all agreeing you got it wrong.
Much of the formulae with magic item pricing has to do with the presumption that your item is causing a spell effect - in other words, doing something that an existing spell does, just in a different form and frequency.
What, if anything, can you say about pricing an item that does something that no one spell does? Or, the closest spell does something permanent, and your item does something similar, but temporary.
Based on prior threads and years of advice, my best reckoning is simply to 'compare it to other items' as the sages have told us to do. But I was wondering if anyone had further insight.
When it doesn't have a straightforward spell effect (and it's best when it doesn't), certainly compare it to other items on the wondrous item price list. Also, consider the in-game ramifications of the use of your item. At what power level does it potentially "break" the game. What if everyone in the entire party could afford one? Where does it make the most sense for such an item to appear in an adventurer's career? What "Wealth By Character Level" tier would it need to be priced at to become available to such a PC? When you can answer these types of questions, you'll have entered the "art" of wondrous item pricing.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I'm crossing my fingers that I priced my item right since I couldn't use just existing spells to price mine. But I tried to eyeball the appropriate wealth-by-level tables, and the other wondrous items I felt it compared to. Time will tell if I got that right. This part of the process always seems tricky to me.
I've talked about this with other freelancers. The usual way to price an item seems to be:
1) Figure out what level this item should be available.
2) Take a look at the WBL guidelines table, and figure out what the WBL for the level you wish the item to start to be available at.
3) Apply some constant to figure out the price of the item.
4) Sanity check against the formula.
5) Modify if necessary.
It looks like Neil Spicer said all this (although not in that order) above, but in more details. I'm glad I've been doing it the mostly-correct way!
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I had lots of issues with pricing. A few were similar but different... I had to figure when I would want characters having such an item in my game versus when they would want it readily available. Wish I had done a little more research on spells from outside the CRB. My gut says I should have went with my first easily priced item, but I listened to my inner worries and doubts...
When it doesn't have a straightforward spell effect (and it's best when it doesn't)...
This really goes to the heart of the matter, doesn't it. We have heard time and time again, that the really superstar items are the ones that break that magic "Now, why didn't I think of that"-boundary. So if your doing it right, it should neither have a straightforward spell effect or do something similar to an existing item.
So in that respect, if your item is really easy to price, that may be a warning sign. (Or maybe I'm telling myself this because my item fluctuated wildly in price before I settled on the final price tag.)
I actually had some pretty major thoughts on this shortly before finishing (oh, and then rewriting totally) my item, as pricing was one of the last things I looked at.
Basically table the calculation as per the CRB gave me a price which was, like, at least 5x as much as any PC with half a mind would ever be willingly to spend on the effect.
That actually got me inspired to limit the item in an entirely new way which got it rewritten to something wholly unlike the original (and incidentally, rather unrelated to any spells).
I ended up setting the price based on taking my most optimizing player aside and ask something like "at what price would you EVER choose to buy this over a similar item of same price?" (such as the nearest in price cloak of protection, amulet of natural armor or such, which normally would be the "standard" item for the given level.
I liked that price decently well. Then I went over item priced close to the same. Some of them I would not, ever, choose for a PC before (possibly because I was liking it, admittedly), but some would definitely be better for some characters.
I still felt insecure as the table of magic item pricing is normally my religion in this (I hate underpriced items, and have a player who likes to customize items - not always at reasonable creation prices). So I took that to note and looked, not at the buy price, but the creation price as any given player at my table who really wants an item hardly ever buys it, thereby often getting them earlier than otherwise expectable. They tend to be willing to take any number of penalties on the crafting check so long as they CAN make it. So the creation cost is one of the only finite limits on how early they CAN get to the item, if they really want it. I then checked against the PC wealth by level table, asking myself the question "Would I spend the rest of my life wishing I'd priced it higher if they access it at this level (the first where they could, possibly, with their total wealth, afford this item)?" I didn't feel too worried about it. It might be REALLY, very powerful at the earliest level any PC could get it, but then, if they want it *that* much I'm inclined to let them enjoy it for a few levels until it evens far more out, since it didn't seem game breaking.
I guess the short of that is: if the item is a literal gamebreaker at the first level where PCs can possibly, somehow, considering that they might borrow a bit from other players and create it themselves, and take penalties to ignore spell/Caster Level requirements. If I at this point had felt overly alarmed, I would probably have heightened the price a bit, just for safety.
Oh, I ramble, but one more point.
A player said I'd buy/price this between this point and one 5000 higher. I ended up choosing price in the high end of that margin, as it felt much safer to deny the item just a little longer than the earliest opportunity where a player could see it being interesting (and halfway reasonable).
So, despite my feelings about underpriced items, I ended up with one at a much lower price than the table of pricing initially suggested I should be at - never mind that the price itself caused me to rewrite the item do to sudden inspiration.
So, whatever I was trying to say, this year my experience with pricing was, definitely, 80% art, guesswork and gut-feeling.
This was most surely more wordy an any submission should ever, ever be.
Sincerely,
Siv