Disclaimer: This is not a question about if you can dual wield bombs, and throw more of them that way!
The question is if you could dual wield bombs and another ranged weapon (and dose one need fast bombs for it)? Say wielding a crossbow in your main hand and throwing a single bomb with your offhand.
As a bonus question I was going to ask if one could use a repeating crossbow to gain multiple attacks with both the crossbow and bombs (from Improved Two Weapon Fighting) but it seems like those specify that you need two hands... How about having a revolver in one hand and throwing bombs in the other ? Disallowed by RAW or touch-attack galore?
An example of how this would look:
X the ambidextrous alchemist with Dex 17, base attack bonus +7, fast bombs, firearms proficiency and improved two weapon fighting:
Bombs +8/3 for xd6+int & revolver +8/3 for 1d8
Fast Bombs:
Fast Bombs
Prerequisite: Alchemist 8
Benefit: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon.
You can't two-weapon fight with bombs because it is a standard action to activate and throw a bomb, or, with Fast Bombs, a full-round action to activate and throw multiple bombs.
In both cases, the action is activating and throwing one or more bombs. It is not an attack or full attack action, thus you cannot mix it with other attacks.
The Bomb class feature is a supernatural ability that requires a standard action to use. Part of that standard action is making a ranged attack, but you are not using the attack action. Bombs are mechanically the same as a dragon using its breath weapon; you wouldn't ask if a dragon could two-weapon fight with its breath weapon and a ballista, would you?
Fast bombs still modifies the original Bomb class feature, which is still a supernatural ability and thus requires a separate action. The "this functions as a full attack with a ranged weapon" is there to tell you that your attack bonus decreases and so on as if you were making a full attack. It doesn't allow you to mix other attacks with bombs.
The Bomb class feature is a supernatural ability that requires a standard action to use. Part of that standard action is making a ranged attack, but you are not using the attack action. Bombs are mechanically the same as a dragon using its breath weapon; you wouldn't ask if a dragon could two-weapon fight with its breath weapon and a ballista, would you?
Fast bombs still modifies the original Bomb class feature, which is still a supernatural ability and thus requires a separate action. The "this functions as a full attack with a ranged weapon" is there to tell you that your attack bonus decreases and so on as if you were making a full attack. It doesn't allow you to mix other attacks with bombs.
Per this FAQ it does allow bombs to be considered a weapon for other feats as well:
Quote:
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
The Bomb class feature is a supernatural ability that requires a standard action to use. Part of that standard action is making a ranged attack, but you are not using the attack action. Bombs are mechanically the same as a dragon using its breath weapon; you wouldn't ask if a dragon could two-weapon fight with its breath weapon and a ballista, would you?
Fast bombs still modifies the original Bomb class feature, which is still a supernatural ability and thus requires a separate action. The "this functions as a full attack with a ranged weapon" is there to tell you that your attack bonus decreases and so on as if you were making a full attack. It doesn't allow you to mix other attacks with bombs.
Even though Fast Bombs is its own full round action, which would preclude you from taking a Standard or Full Attack Action, there are certain "special" actions that allow you to make attacks (Charge, for example) without using the Standard or Full Attack Action.
Fast Bombs states "This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon." This does mean that your attack bonus decreases and so on as if you were making a full attack.
It also means that the Alchemist can use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks, since you can use those with ranged weapons and Fast Bombs is "just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
It's not a stretch at all to argue that, since you can make attacks with multiple different weapons when full attacking with a ranged weapon, "This functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon" also means that you can also use multiple weapons with Fast Bombs because Fast Bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
I'll agree that there are good arguments for allowing TWF to work with Fast Bombs, especially in light of that FAQ. I still think the intent was to just allow extra bombs when using TWF with Fast Bombs, but there's definitely a solid argument otherwise.
Normal bombs are definitively out. Nice to see that there are others that think that one might TWF with bombs and guns/crossbows - even thou the matter isn't clear. I'll put this in the maybe folder then =)
given the official FAQ answer, I can't see any way that using whatever combination of one-handed weapons you wanted wouldn't be ok with TWF. Mix and matching thrown weapons, using a one-handed melee weapon (bombs presumably count as light weapons), or using a one-handed ranged weapon (which are few and far between - I could see a single round from a crossbow, but you can't really use a longbow one-handed). Of course, you found a way around that with the revolver... and I might point out that you can get an extra arm as an alchemist. You could reasonably TWF/Rapid Shot bombs with bows for tons of fun. Suddenly I'm thinking of what cannot possibly be an optimized build... but dual-wielding bows with an alchemist seems like too much fun. Maybe I'll focus Mutagen-side and make him dual-wield greatswords instead...
given the official FAQ answer, I can't see any way that using whatever combination of one-handed weapons you wanted wouldn't be ok with TWF.
The context of the question was adding more attacks with bombs, not adding additional weapons into the activation of a supernatural ability.
Again, there is a valid argument that it is OK, and honestly any weapon you choose to add is going to be less powerful than another bomb, I just want to point out that there is a viable argument otherwise as well.
True, but the ability states that it works just like a full attack and the FAQ answer clarifies that it does so. It's slightly less "activating a supernatural ability" at this point and simply "using a weapon other classes don't have". It even provokes attacks of opportunity (making it act more like a ranged weapon than a supernatural ability). If the supernatural ability in question specifically says to treat it as a full attack, and the official answer from the developers is that it works fully with two-weapon fighting, taking the two together makes a pretty solid case for treating bombs in a full attack as just another potential weapon choice.
Going back to the OP, your question about using a hand crossbow seems like it would work once between reloads, faster with the Rapid Reload feat (after all, your hand is empty between bomb throws). If you only take the first TWF feat (or don't take it at all) you only get one off-hand attack anyway. Nice for adding a little extra damage to one full attack during a combat anyway.
That said, an official answer on using other weapons during a Fast Bombs full attack would be nice. I always prefer offical errata to attempting to divine the intent of the devs - even when I'm GM'ing, I prefer players and GM alike know they can rely on the rules to determine what's going on.
Thanks for all the input - the plan was to find a way to use the Grenadier archetypes ability to shoot alchemical substances with a weapon as an extra nice little bonus. And to save those precious bombs but still use those TWF feats one have in all encounters during the day.
@Waiph I'm fairly sure bombs only require one hand to operate, since they are eligible for TWF =)
@Gatherer818 Dual-wielding composite longbows ... hmm what dose have a nice sound about it...
@Fozbek Yeah, I could certainly see this going against RAW on some interpretations (since I did feel the need to ask : ) ).
I toyed with the idea of duel wielding alchemist fires and bottles of acid. Would that be possible?
The only issue with it is the feat "Quick Draw" which is needed to throw more then one item per hand.
Quote:
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
So, you could not quick draw alchemists fire to throw more then one per hand.
Yes, I remember reading that. It would be every other round. Standard to throw a bomb, move action to draw alchemal item, then next round bomb and alchemal item?
Ha, I knew one DM who ruled if you passed a perform (juggle) check, you could throw all the knives you were juggling without needing the quick draw feat.
This led to a guy juggling non-stop through every dungeon.
