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I'm putting together an Alchemist's Guide. So far Plant Shape 1 and 2 are both rated Red for no. I'll admit I've never played with anyone who cast this spell; seems like Druid stuff to me. Is it worth it? What can you do with a Plant Shape?
While personally I don't know a lot about the alchemist Ogre did a great job a while back here's the link to his guide to check out.
LINK
Andrew Betts wrote: While personally I don't know a lot about the alchemist Ogre did a great job a while back here's the link to his guide to check out.
LINK
The thing is, Ultimate Magic completely changed the game for Alchemists, IMO. Not to disparage Ogre, but his commentary regarding UM is very brief and only summarizes UM's Alchemist content; it doesn't really examine or even rank the new stuff. I've wanted a Treantmonk-style guide to Alchemist's for a while; I'm tired of waiting so I'm writing it myself.
For now, this guide will focus on ranged alchemists and give the most emphasis to their role as striker and controller. Nothing against melee/tank Alchemists, but that just feels like it's worth a whole separate guide to me.
This is a WIP.
Here are the Extract rankings.
Commentary/critique appreciated.
Note that this is focused on ranged Alchemists. It's also for pure Alchemists, not multiclassed ones. Do not take snarkiness toward Melee/Martial personally.
Here are the Discovery Rankings. Artwork/introduction not yet written.
These are rough drafts. Introduction will explain that dipping into Alchemist for martial/melee classes is fine, but that this guide focuses on pure Alchemist ranged attackers. Also will have stat breakdowns and probably talk about how the Alchemist is cutting into the rogue's turf and making the rogue obsolete. Or not.
I'll have to spend some time talking about the different roles the Alchemist can fill. How they have limited but effective battlefield control tools, though not as good as the wizard. How they can be a healer/buffer, but not as good as the cleric. How they can be a great sneak. Melee/tanking is something they can do, but will be a separate guide (after I play a few melee alchemists).
After that, class abilities, including a bunch on different kinds of Mutagens/Cognatogens.
A little on archetypes (mostly, don't) and then a section on the potential of Alchemical Simulacra to optimize and how to keep the other players happy with it (consult first, maybe make unto them a gift of a half-strength copy of themselves) and to accept that many players/GMs will consider it excessive cheese and graciously accept no for an answer.
joeyfixit wrote: This is a WIP.
Here are the Extract rankings.
Commentary/critique appreciated.
Note that this is focused on ranged Alchemists. It's also for pure Alchemists, not multiclassed ones. Do not take snarkiness toward Melee/Martial personally.
Going over level ones....
As a note, I'm assuming that the build has Infusion, as that Discovery gives you a silly amount of utility for its cost. I literally can't think of a better way to spend a Discovery - even Confusion Bomb doesn't have the same potential.
I feel that Crafter's Fortune is better than a Red. If you're taking Infusion (and you'd need to work really hard to convince me why you're not taking it) it gives the entire party a more or less passive, stacking +5 on every Craft check they'll ever make, which can be really strong depending on what you're doing. Never ever prepare an Extract with it, but if you're ever working on an item, just take a minute to buff someone with it. Niche, but still useful.
Anticipate Peril is minute/level - that's not a decent duration. It's a decent spell, but you'll never use it unless you know that Combat is coming up. Don't know if I'd call it Blue.
Enlarge Person can be used on multiple people if you're willing to dump the Extracts on it. It also is an absurdly good buff for a level one spell - why is this Red?
Keen Senses - I don't know if I disagree with you on its usefulness, but Perception is an Alchemist class skill.
Targeted Bomb Admixture lasts Rounds/level, adds maybe +7 to the damage of an attack, and negates all the damage your Sticky Bomb will deal (since Sticky Bomb is based off the splash damage). It's really not worth casting in combat when throwing another Bomb would deal more damage and won't remove all of your AOE capabilities. This isn't a Blue spell to me.
Level Twos
I'd call Barkskin a Blue spell due to its 10m/level duration. Its an untyped AC bonus that your meatshield can use, that scales with level pretty well.
Fire Breath has been really meh for me. The big advantage that bombs have are the fantastic debuffs (Tanglefoot Bomb, Stink Bomb, Confusion Bomb), not their raw damage, and even with that, the spell doesn't do more damage than just bombing does. At level 5, Fire Breath takes 1 Standard Action to drink (Since it lasts rounds/level, you can't assume you use it before combat) + 1 Standard action to breath fire once to deal 4d6 Ref/half and then deals less damage than a bomb, vs. 1 standard action to throw a bomb dealing 3d6+4 (assuming an Int of 18) with no save. It inflicts no status ailments and does nothing really to control the area. Yeah, it's sort of better than Breath Weapon Bomb, but why wouldn't you just 5' step away and bomb a target?
Vomit Swarm is better than Bottled Ooze to me just because it doesn't need a Discovery (Plus, there are only like 2 decent Oozes if I remember right). Remember that the first movement of Vomit Swarm doesn't take an action for you to direct. Yeah, the save DC of a Spider Swarm's distraction is only 11, but throwing it on an enemy caster is still somewhat effective, and it makes for a great party trick.
I'll glance at levels 3+ when I have time.
Probably because the guide doesn't assume Infusion.
joeyfixit wrote: Here are the Discovery Rankings. Artwork/introduction not yet written.
These are rough drafts. Introduction will explain that dipping into Alchemist for martial/melee classes is fine, but that this guide focuses on pure Alchemist ranged attackers. Also will have stat breakdowns and probably talk about how the Alchemist is cutting into the rogue's turf and making the rogue obsolete. Or not.
I'll have to spend some time talking about the different roles the Alchemist can fill. How they have limited but effective battlefield control tools, though not as good as the wizard. How they can be a healer/buffer, but not as good as the cleric. How they can be a great sneak. Melee/tanking is something they can do, but will be a separate guide (after I play a few melee alchemists).
After that, class abilities, including a bunch on different kinds of Mutagens/Cognatogens.
A little on archetypes (mostly, don't) and then a section on the potential of Alchemical Simulacra to optimize and how to keep the other players happy with it (consult first, maybe make unto them a gift of a half-strength copy of themselves) and to accept that many players/GMs will consider it excessive cheese and graciously accept no for an answer.
I disagree with you on the Archetypes - both Grenadier and Mindchemist are arguably better than the base class, depending on what you're doing. You're missing Eternal Potion (which has Extend Potion as a pre-req) on your list, which is massive.
Bottled Ooze isn't blue - at level 6, you can't summon said Cube since you need to burn an Extract slot of equal level to the Ooze's CR to summon it, which means you're spending Standard Actions to summon CR 1-2 Oozes or you're using up slots that could be spent on much better spells. I really see this as a Red.
Dispelling Bomb sucks all of the damage out of your bomb. Dispel Magic at will is handy, but I wouldn't say it's a required Discovery, since a Confusion Bomb will basically shut down a caster to the same degree and also hurt them quite a bit.
I'd say Sticky Bomb is at least a green. By the time you get it, if you're focused exclusively on bombing, your bombs should be doing at least 5d6+7 each (assuming 24 Int at level 10), and Sticky Bomb stacks with every other bomb, so it's free damage. Hitting a target 3 times (Once with a Confusion Bomb, and then with 2 Force Bombs) will deal 34 Force damage on the next turn for free. This could arguably be a Blue.
Madness Bomb is not a Blue. It deals 1d4, then 1d4-1, etc at the cost of 2d6 damage. You have no other way of draining abilities, and while a lot of stuff has a pretty crappy Wisdom Score, and will drain (on average) 2.5 Wisdom, then 1.75, then 1.25, and finally 1. It takes you 3 rounds of Full Attacking to drain a 10 Wisdom Commoner to 0 Wisdom - you can flat out kill most targets through damage if they let you do that. It's such a niche ability, and it's only real use is denying Wisdom-based casters their upper level spell slots, and even though it stacks with other bombs, it's not worth it.
Cheapy wrote: Probably because the guide doesn't assume Infusion. Why not? If it's a guide to running an Alchemist, the first thing I'd look for is Infusion. The ability makes an Alchemist magnitudes more useful. I cannot overstate how strong the Discovery is, and if he's writing a guide discussing the Alchemist, he either needs to explain why he'd not take it, or he should evaluate stuff assuming it was taken. I'd see it as a given that an Alch has it unless they told me otherwise.
Cheapy wrote: Probably because the guide doesn't assume Infusion. The guide doesn't assume infusion. Also, assuming the alchemist you're playing isn't the party's dedicated healer/buffer, they are ranked in importance to the alchemist. Meaning Enlarge Person doesn't get priority, Reduce Person does.
Also, any spell or extract is blue under the right circumstances (out of combat, 3/4 of the party are crafters, etc). Tell you what, though - I'll put a disclaimer in at the start of the extracts telling them that with Infusion, you need to examine the party needs and adjust accordingly.
Note that Infusion does get the blue rating under discoveries.
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote: Here are the Discovery Rankings. Artwork/introduction not yet written.
These are rough drafts. Introduction will explain that dipping into Alchemist for martial/melee classes is fine, but that this guide focuses on pure Alchemist ranged attackers. Also will have stat breakdowns and probably talk about how the Alchemist is cutting into the rogue's turf and making the rogue obsolete. Or not.
I'll have to spend some time talking about the different roles the Alchemist can fill. How they have limited but effective battlefield control tools, though not as good as the wizard. How they can be a healer/buffer, but not as good as the cleric. How they can be a great sneak. Melee/tanking is something they can do, but will be a separate guide (after I play a few melee alchemists).
After that, class abilities, including a bunch on different kinds of Mutagens/Cognatogens.
A little on archetypes (mostly, don't) and then a section on the potential of Alchemical Simulacra to optimize and how to keep the other players happy with it (consult first, maybe make unto them a gift of a half-strength copy of themselves) and to accept that many players/GMs will consider it excessive cheese and graciously accept no for an answer.
I disagree with you on the Archetypes - both Grenadier and Mindchemist are arguably better than the base class, depending on what you're doing. You're missing Eternal Potion (which has Extend Potion as a pre-req) on your list, which is massive.
Bottled Ooze isn't blue - at level 6, you can't summon said Cube since you need to burn an Extract slot of equal level to the Ooze's CR to summon it, which means you're spending Standard Actions to summon CR 1-2 Oozes or you're using up slots that could be spent on much better spells. I really see this as a Red.
Dispelling Bomb sucks all of the damage out of your bomb. Dispel Magic at will is handy, but I wouldn't say it's a... 1) The archetypes will be discussed in due course. Mindchemist is the best of them, I'd agree. Preservationist will also rank highly.
2) But as soon as you level, you get a Gelatinous Cube. I'll add the caveat that it should be your 7th level Extra Discovery, because there are too many goodies at level 8.
3)I'll consider knocking CF up to orange with the caveat that it's only to be obtained via wizard book/scroll
4) No damage on Dispelling Bomb is a good thing. It means you can use it one your buddies to dispel what ails them (I guess I should include this).
5)I actually hadn't realized that sticky bomb stacks with other bombs. The orange rating comes because there are so many other 8th and 10th level goodies. Will consider upgrading.
6) You have a point. Vs. evil cleric and "so that the wizard can get his enchantments past that guy's will save" are circumstantial enough to knock this down a notch.
joeyfixit wrote: Cheapy wrote: Probably because the guide doesn't assume Infusion. The guide doesn't assume infusion. Also, assuming the alchemist you're playing isn't the party's dedicated healer/buffer, they are ranked in importance to the alchemist. Meaning Enlarge Person doesn't get priority, Reduce Person does.
Also, any spell or extract is blue under the right circumstances (out of combat, 3/4 of the party are crafters, etc). Tell you what, though - I'll put a disclaimer in at the start of the extracts telling them that with Infusion, you need to examine the party needs and adjust accordingly.
Note that Infusion does get the blue rating under discoveries. Fair enough. Crafter's Fortune, Enlarge Person, and Barkskin are all less valuable without Infusion, but the rest of my points still stand. Also, I would possibly have a section on Infusion itself and what it can do. Not only the obvious stuff like maximizing action efficiency by letting Melee classes spend their own actions to buff themselves, but the neat stuff like giving a party member Delayed Consumption --> Universal Forumula to give everyone in your party a Contingency that uses any level 1-3 Alchemist Extract as an immediate action, or causing what amounts to a Mass Magic Jar, or literally anything involving Twin Form.
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote: This is a WIP.
Here are the Extract rankings.
Commentary/critique appreciated.
Note that this is focused on ranged Alchemists. It's also for pure Alchemists, not multiclassed ones. Do not take snarkiness toward Melee/Martial personally.
Going over level ones....
As a note, I'm assuming that the build has Infusion, as that Discovery gives you a silly amount of utility for its cost. I literally can't think of a better way to spend a Discovery - even Confusion Bomb doesn't have the same potential.
I feel that Crafter's Fortune is better than a Red. If you're taking Infusion (and you'd need to work really hard to convince me why you're not taking it) it gives the entire party a more or less passive, stacking +5 on every Craft check they'll ever make, which can be really strong depending on what you're doing. Never ever prepare an Extract with it, but if you're ever working on an item, just take a minute to buff someone with it. Niche, but still useful.
Anticipate Peril is minute/level - that's not a decent duration. It's a decent spell, but you'll never use it unless you know that Combat is coming up. Don't know if I'd call it Blue.
Enlarge Person can be used on multiple people if you're willing to dump the Extracts on it. It also is an absurdly good buff for a level one spell - why is this Red?
Keen Senses - I don't know if I disagree with you on its usefulness, but Perception is an Alchemist class skill.
Targeted Bomb Admixture lasts Rounds/level, adds maybe +7 to the damage of an attack, and negates all the damage your Sticky Bomb will deal (since Sticky Bomb is based off the splash damage). It's really not worth casting in combat when throwing another Bomb would deal more damage and won't remove all of your AOE capabilities. This isn't a Blue spell to me.
Level Twos
I'd call Barkskin a Blue spell due to its 10m/level duration. Its an untyped... Anticipate Peril - Knowing a combat is coming up isn't a rare circumstance. I still use this one regularly in the teens.
Enlarge - Alchemist's version will only work on one person, will only work on himself until he gets infusion (so at least level 2) and does nothing to help the ranged bomber.
Percep - Wow, you're right. That's what I get for writing a guide under the influence of cold medicine. Good thing I shared before putting it all together...
TBA - At level 1, Sticky Bombs is a looong ways away. You have to stay alive to get there, and TBA helps put down solo monsters at low levels. Also, with no splash damage, you're not endangering your melee peeps unless you miss.
"But as soon as you level, you get a Gelatinous Cube. I'll add the caveat that it should be your 7th level Extra Discovery, because there are too many goodies at level 8."
You only get a Cube if you're willing to burn your 3rd level Extract slot on it. I don't want to spend a Discovery, and then a Standard Action at level 7 to summon a CR3 creature at the cost of my highest level school. The Oozes that are sort of worthwhile (to me) are the Melanchoic Ooze Swarm, which has a Swarm Traits, a Distraction DC of 15, and a paralyze DC of 15, so it forces multiple save or suck effects for a level 1 extract slot, or a Choleric Ooze Swarm since it can utterly wreck equipment for a level 2 extract.
EDIT
"Anticipate Peril - Knowing a combat is coming up isn't a rare circumstance. I still use this one regularly in the teens. "
Fair enough. And it certainly is one of the best level one extracts -again, especially with Infusion :)
"Enlarge - Alchemist's version will only work on one person, will only work on himself until he gets infusion (so at least level 2) and does nothing to help the ranged bomber."
I actually tend to burn my level 1 feat for Extra Discovery: Infusion. I'm weird, I know.
"TBA - At level 1, Sticky Bombs is a looong ways away. You have to stay alive to get there, and TBA helps put down solo monsters at low levels. Also, with no splash damage, you're not endangering your melee peeps unless you miss."
Bombers should have both Splash Weapon Mastery and Precise Bombs anyway since they're incredibly useful. I just can't get over spending a standard action in combat to buff myself with something that doesn't immediately change the fight itself. It's more damage over time on a single target, but how long does a typical fight last?
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote: Cheapy wrote: Probably because the guide doesn't assume Infusion. The guide doesn't assume infusion. Also, assuming the alchemist you're playing isn't the party's dedicated healer/buffer, they are ranked in importance to the alchemist. Meaning Enlarge Person doesn't get priority, Reduce Person does.
Also, any spell or extract is blue under the right circumstances (out of combat, 3/4 of the party are crafters, etc). Tell you what, though - I'll put a disclaimer in at the start of the extracts telling them that with Infusion, you need to examine the party needs and adjust accordingly.
Note that Infusion does get the blue rating under discoveries. Fair enough. Crafter's Fortune, Enlarge Person, and Barkskin are all less valuable without Infusion, but the rest of my points still stand. Also, I would possibly have a section on Infusion itself and what it can do. Not only the obvious stuff like maximizing action efficiency by letting Melee classes spend their own actions to buff themselves, but the neat stuff like giving a party member Delayed Consumption --> Universal Forumula to give everyone in your party a Contingency that uses any level 1-3 Alchemist Extract as an immediate action, or causing what amounts to a Mass Magic Jar, or literally anything involving Twin Form. Universal Formula can't be infused. Magic Jar and Twin form are both 5+ and can't be Delayed.
joeyfixit wrote: Universal Formula can't be infused. Magic Jar and Twin form are both 5+ and can't be Delayed. Delayed Consumption --> Universal Formula is perfectly legal. You could argue that Universal Formula won't do anything since the person triggering it doesn't have a Formula list, in which cast Delayed Consumption gets Invisibility, Haste, True Strike, Fly, or other cool stuff.
I know that about Magic Jar and Twin Form. I never said that you delayed them - I meant that sharing them through Infusion alone was fantastic.
EDIT
If you feel that Infusion isn't worth it, then I guess to you it isn't. To me, an Alchemist without it is gimping themselves hard. You lose a significant amount of out of combat usefulness. You give every single member of your party spell casting by taking it. I can literally think of no other effect as strong as that.
Menteith wrote: "But as soon as you level, you get a Gelatinous Cube. I'll add the caveat that it should be your 7th level Extra Discovery, because there are too many goodies at level 8."
You only get a Cube if you're willing to burn your 3rd level Extract slot on it. I don't want to spend a Discovery, and then a Standard Action at level 7 to summon a CR3 creature at the cost of my highest level school. The Oozes that are sort of worthwhile (to me) are the Melanchoic Ooze Swarm, which has a Swarm Traits, a Distraction DC of 15, and a paralyze DC of 15, so it forces multiple save or suck effects for a level 1 extract slot, or a Choleric Ooze Swarm since it can utterly wreck equipment for a level 2 extract.
I once felt as you do, that the CR don't make it worth it. I talked it out on these boards and they convinced me I was wrong. So I tried it in combat. What happens is that you target a square adjacent to a foe, throw the cube, and then the cube automatically engulfs the foe. Now you can deal with his buddies while he takes d6 every round until the rooms is cleared and your wizard or bombs can destroy that cube and everyone inside. This is control magic at its best.
The rest of your argument is that other oozes are cooler. This makes the discovery shine a brighter shade of blue.
EDIT: Actually, how we houseruled it is that a direct hit with the cube bottle=automatic engulfment. YMMV. The rules are a bit vague here - if it couldn't be thrown at an enemy directly, I think the rules would say so.
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote: Universal Formula can't be infused. Magic Jar and Twin form are both 5+ and can't be Delayed. Delayed Consumption --> Universal Formula is perfectly legal. You could argue that Universal Formula won't do anything since the person triggering it doesn't have a Formula list, in which cast Delayed Consumption gets Invisibility, Haste, True Strike, Fly, or other cool stuff.
I know that about Magic Jar and Twin Form. I never said that you delayed them - I meant that sharing them through Infusion alone was fantastic. Universal Formula wrote:
As you ingest this extract, it transforms into the appropriate extract for any formula you know of 3rd level or lower and takes effect immediately. If the chosen formula has an expensive material component, it must be provided along with the component for this formula. You may not create an infused extract with this formula.
Infused Twin Form? Sure, it's awesome. You win. Both Infusion and Twin Form got my blue rating. Combine them together and they're white. You probably missed this because it was the same shade as the white background.
Infusion is more than a discovery. It actually changes your entire build and role. You want to take this if there's no cleric, bard, or buffer/healer in your party.
If there is, you might be stepping on their toes. And spending precious time and extracts (one per level!) helping to buff the party instead of fashioning yourself into a nuclear cannon.
And Cure Potions work as good as Infused Cure Extracts below level 4.
It's not the CR, it's that you will generally have - at most - 3 level 3 extracts to burn. I'm not willing to give them up when I could use a Bomb and get a similar effect anyway. The lower CR Oozes are better since they don't use up an incredibly limited resource.
Also, you're right about Universal Consumption :(. Also, being limited to 1 active Delayed Consumption is lame, but it's still worthwhile to give someone in the group an Immediate action to do almost anything (except Teleport :( ).
joeyfixit wrote: Infused Twin Form? Sure, it's awesome. You win. Both Infusion and Twin Form got my blue rating. Combine them together and they're white. You probably missed this because it was the same shade as the white background.
Infusion is more than a discovery. It actually changes your entire build and role. You want to take this if there's no cleric, bard, or buffer/healer in your party.
If there is, you might be stepping on their toes. And spending precious time and extracts (one per level!) helping to buff the party instead of fashioning yourself into a nuclear cannon.
And Cure Potions work as good as Infused Cure Extracts below level 4.
It's just that the cost of picking it up is so low. It has no prereqs; you just grab it at any old level and all of a sudden the party has a thousand more options. Need to replicate a Mass Invisility/Fly/Disguise Self? Done. Want to give out unique, powerful buffs like Fluid Form (which lets a tripper threaten absurdly large areas with Enlarge Person and a reach weapon)? Done. Does the party wizard want to have a Delayed Consumption: Freedom of Movement available against a Kracken? You can do that too. The amount of utility given by the spell is indescribable. You have enough unique buffs and effects that no one should mind, and you really aren't using your Extracts in combat anyway (since Bombs will do more damage/debuff better if you're using this build).
I think everyone here should write their own guide :)
Cheapy wrote: I think everyone here should write their own guide :) :)
Just trying to give him the best feedback I can on what he's got down. Joey, if at any point I'm being too aggressive, just let me know!
Menteith wrote: It's not the CR, it's that you will generally have - at most - 3 level 3 extracts to burn. I'm not willing to give them up when I could use a Bomb and get a similar effect anyway. The lower CR Oozes are better since they don't use up an incredibly limited resource.
Also, you're right about Universal Consumption :(. Also, being limited to 1 active Delayed Consumption is lame, but it's still worthwhile to give someone in the group an Immediate action to do almost anything (except Teleport :( ).
Why only 3? Eventually you'll get 5+Intel mod. You can buy overlapping wizard scrolls to bolster your inventory, copy from another Alchemist's formula book, copy from the party wizard, and get bonus extracts via the Alternate Racial favored class bonus, if you're human.
Note that when you get the discovery, it doesn't cut into your extracts known, just your dailies. You are now able to create any CR Ooze you can make extracts at. Straight up to CR 6 Verduous Ooze. Also, level 3 extracts can be potion'd.
And these are summoned creatures, meaning that every hit that goes their way is one that didn't go at your party.
Menteith wrote: Cheapy wrote: I think everyone here should write their own guide :) :)
Just trying to give him the best feedback I can on what he's got down. Joey, if at any point I'm being too aggressive, just let me know! No, not being too aggressive. But... what do you want? I can't make the discovery any more blue. (well, I could, but I don't have the money for Photoshop)
Buffing the party is great. The Bard does this full time, the cleric does it when he's not healing, and the wizard does it pretty often.
Can the alchemist buff the party and still be an effective striker? Actually, yes. Be patient and wait for the section on builds. I've written 24 pages of this thing since Friday night; the rest will come in time.
joeyfixit wrote:
Why only 3? Eventually you'll get 5+Intel mod. You can buy overlapping wizard scrolls to bolster your inventory, copy from another Alchemist's formula book, copy from the party wizard, and get bonus extracts via the Alternate Racial favored class bonus, if you're human.
Note that when you get the discovery, it doesn't cut into your extracts known, just your dailies. You are now able to create any CR Ooze you can make extracts at. Straight up to CR 6 Verduous Ooze. Also, level 3 extracts can be potion'd.
And these are summoned creatures, meaning that every hit that goes their way is one that didn't go at your party.
At level 7, you have 1 (+2 with an Int of 24) level 3 extracts. I can't summon a Verdurous Ooze until I'm level 16 - summoning a CR6 creature, in exchange for a very relevant spell slot is just terrible. It's a speedbump at best. You're summoning stuff with CRs that are less than half of your own and using up really good things to do so. At level 10, you have the option of using up a 3rd level extract to summon a G. Cube, or full attacking with Sticky Confusion Bomb --> Sticky Tanglefoot Bomb --> Sticky Stink Bomb (provided you have either Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting). This will destroy just about anything, and will leave them unable to really do anything. The Cube will force a DC12 Reflex save to get out of the way (which everyone will make at level 10; people will be making that at level 7!) and then will wander around with its undirected 15' per round for awhile doing nothing else.
EDIT
Originally this came about because I was evaluating stuff assuming that the Alchemist took Infusion as soon as possible (level 1 or 2), and then you said the build didn't assume Infusion. I would evaluate the spells making that assumption for the same reason I would evaluate them assuming you have a high enough Intelligence score to cast them, because it would be weird to me if you didn't.
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote:
Why only 3? Eventually you'll get 5+Intel mod. You can buy overlapping wizard scrolls to bolster your inventory, copy from another Alchemist's formula book, copy from the party wizard, and get bonus extracts via the Alternate Racial favored class bonus, if you're human.
Note that when you get the discovery, it doesn't cut into your extracts known, just your dailies. You are now able to create any CR Ooze you can make extracts at. Straight up to CR 6 Verduous Ooze. Also, level 3 extracts can be potion'd.
And these are summoned creatures, meaning that every hit that goes their way is one that didn't go at your party.
At level 7, you have 1 (+2 with an Int of 24) level 3 extracts. I can't summon a Verdurous Ooze until I'm level 16 - summoning a CR6 creature, in exchange for a very relevant spell slot is just terrible. It's a speedbump at best. You're summoning stuff with CRs that are less than half of your own and using up really good things to do so. At level 10, you have the option of using up a 3rd level extract to summon a G. Cube, or full attacking with Sticky Confusion Bomb --> Sticky Tanglefoot Bomb --> Sticky Stink Bomb (provided you have either Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting). This will destroy just about anything, and will leave them unable to really do anything. The Cube will force a DC12 Reflex save to get out of the way (which everyone will make at level 10; people will be making that at level 7!) and then will wander around with its undirected 15' per round for awhile doing nothing else. You are in an arena with a giant rancor monster with a truckload of HP. A tunnel opens up and orcs riding on dire wolves start swarming in. You hear the yips, grunts, and howls of many more in the tunnel beyond.
You have Dex Mutagen up and running, you are flying, and you are smart and took Anticipate Peril. You are not in AoO range of the monster, but he's looking your way. It's no surprise that you're up first in initiative. What do you do?
You can a) buff with Haste or Displacement, and get outta the way
b) full attack the giant monster with your sticky bombs and wait for him to crunch you
c)try and take out as many of those orcs as you can
d) throw a Gelatinous Cube at that tunnel, and force the bad guys behind it to deal with it for at least one round. Allowing your melee guys to attack the monster and your wizard to use better control magic against the orcs that are already here or try one of his save-or-dies or big blasts against the monster.
I've played scenarios like this, and I would rank the Gelatinous Cube's effectiveness as significantly better than "circumstantial". Two or more adjacent enemies? Cube 'em. Two or more large monsters? Cube one, concentrate on the others. Wizard and summoned creatures? Cube the wizard; even if he isn't instantly engulfed he's got to get away from it. Every spell he spends destroying or getting away from that cube is one less save or die at your party.
CR isn't everything.
In that situation, I would hit the Rancor with a Sticky Confusion Bomb and then Sticky Tanglefoot Bomb the Orcs at the mouth of the tunnel, gluing 2 of the riders down which should seal off the area for at least a round and forcing 2 Ensnare saves on every other Orc/Dire Wolf within range. If a Cube can seal off the area, 2 Dire Wolves glued to the ground prevents anyone from passing through them without cutting the glue apart, which takes at least a round from them. Using a Cube lets you get eaten by the Rancor, while a Confusion Bomb gives a 75% chance of it not killing you (I like those odds).
You guys are running the ability different than it's worded, and if you're allowing for auto-Engulfs it certainly is improved.
"When the alchemist activates the extract, he actually throws the bottle at a square within 30 feet, releasing the ooze, which reconstitutes and attacks the closest creature."
"Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity can attempt a DC 12 Reflex save to avoid being engulfed—on a success, they are pushed back or aside"
Nothing about that wording allows for an auto-Engulf; it might attempt an Engulf, which would then be laughably easily avoided. Then everyone ignores the Cube anyway since it can't hit anything with its (lol) +2 Slam, it can only move 15 ft per round, and its special attack can miss a level 1 Commoner pretty reliably.
CR isn't everything, and there are certainly times when a low CR monster is useful due to a unique spell like ability (basically letting you use a Summoning spell to gain access to that spell-like for the duration of the summon), or when a monster is grossly under CR for its difficulty. G. Cubes aren't. At the first level you gain access to them, they won't be able to hit anything except on a nat 20, and everything will be able to avoid the Engulf (seriously, Ref 12 negates). It has 5' reach, but that doesn't matter anyway - since it can't actually hit anything people can just walk by it ignoring the single AoO it can put out. It uses up a really relevant slot (taking away stuff like Fly, Haste, Heroism, and a mess of utility spells) and you can't use any bombs on the same turn you use the ability. I just don't get how you can value this so highly.
Menteith wrote: In that situation, I would hit the Rancor with a Sticky Confusion Bomb and then Sticky Tanglefoot Bomb the Orcs at the mouth of the tunnel, gluing 2 of the riders down which should seal off the area for at least a round and forcing 2 Ensnare saves on every other Orc/Dire Wolf within range. If a Cube can seal off the area, 2 Dire Wolves glued to the ground prevents anyone from passing through them without cutting the glue apart, which takes at least a round from them. Using a Cube lets you get eaten by the Rancor, while a Confusion Bomb gives a 75% chance of it not killing you (I like those odds).
You guys are running the ability different than it's worded, and if you're allowing for auto-Engulfs it certainly is improved.
"When the alchemist activates the extract, he actually throws the bottle at a square within 30 feet, releasing the ooze, which reconstitutes and attacks the closest creature."
"Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity can attempt a DC 12 Reflex save to avoid being engulfed—on a success, they are pushed back or aside"
Nothing about that wording allows for an auto-Engulf; it might attempt an Engulf, which would then be laughably easily avoided. Then everyone ignores the Cube anyway since it can't hit anything with its (lol) +2 Slam, it can only move 15 ft per round, and its special attack can miss a level 1 Commoner pretty reliably.
CR isn't everything, and there are certainly times when a low CR monster is useful due to a unique spell like ability (basically letting you use a Summoning spell to gain access to that spell-like for the duration of the summon), or when a monster is grossly under CR for its difficulty. G. Cubes aren't. At the first level you gain access to them, they won't be able to hit anything except on a nat 20, and everything will be able to avoid the Engulf (seriously, Ref 12 negates). It has 5' reach, but that doesn't matter anyway - since it can't actually hit anything people can just walk by it ignoring the single AoO it can put out. It uses up a...
Making a 12 Reflex save isn't guaranteed for anybody. Everybody, GM included, rolls a 1 sometimes. Everybody, your Gelatinous Cube included, rolls a natural 20 on their attack roll sometimes.
The tanglefoot bombs also offer a reflex save (admittedly, this should be more than 12 by level 6) against their Tangled Condition, and you need to make an attack roll to hit.
I stick by my blue, because it's a summoned creature. Summoned creatures soak damage and make your opponent have to deal with something. This is not the case with a tanglefoot that missed or that the target saved against. The cube can attempt to engulf multiple enemies per round and keeps trying to engulf enemies round after round while you're throwing more bombs.
I do think it's worth errata. For example, I wouldn't houserule auto-engulfing. I would houserule that the DC for escaping an Ooze that hits a character directly is the same as for all discoveries (10+1/2 level + Intel)
"Making a 12 Reflex save isn't guaranteed for anybody. Everybody, GM included, rolls a 1 sometimes. Everybody, your Gelatinous Cube included, rolls a natural 20 on their attack roll sometimes."
...and then deals 1d6 + 1d6 Acid? Sure it forces a DC20 Fort Save or Die, but the only way for this to come into play is on a nat 20 - when the ability you're using is utterly useless outside of crits, it's a crappy ability.
"The tanglefoot bombs also offer a reflex save (admittedly, this should be more than 12 by level 6) against their Tangled Condition, and you need to make an attack roll to hit."
Tanglefoot Bombs (by level 8, assuming 24 Int) force a Ref21 save or suck on the primary target AND on everyone else within the blast radius AND are dealing 4d6+7 Fire damage + 11 Fire Splash. And I can use that as part of my full attack, allowing me to force a different save if they're making the Ref21 save easily. And if you can't hit on a TOUCH attack by level 8 with medium BAB, something terrible is going on.
"I stick by my blue, because it's a summoned creature. Summoned creatures soak damage and make your opponent have to deal with something. This is not the case with a tanglefoot that missed or that the target saved against. The cube can attempt to engulf multiple enemies per round and keeps trying to engulf enemies round after round while you're throwing more bombs."
My point is that the Cube is pointless after being summoned. Like, it literally does nothing to affect the battle. It will miss on 95% of its attacks, people will almost always make the trivial save DC of Engulf, and since it won't (actually) threaten anyone they can just walk around it (it'll miss on the AoO it gets). Anything with an Intelligence score won't have to deal with it because there's nothing to deal with. It cannot make a meaningful contribution to the fight unless you've already debuffed the crap out of the enemy so it can hit them (in which case, you've already won and shouldn't be wasting Extract slots to summon it).
Look, taking a full attack and throwing out 3 bombs should disable at least 3 enemy combatants, as well as doing a significant amount of damage. A single Confusion Bomb will affect the fight more, since it actually removes an enemy from combat. If you're just using Tanglefoot Bombs, every enemy should be Ensnared by the end of your attack, preventing charges, forcing concentration checks on spells, lowering attack bonus and giving a -4 to Dex. You shouldn't be missing with any attacks because you're going against Touch AC, and if you're really worried about it you target the AC5 grid intersections at optimal points and snare everyone/splash damage everyone.
"I do think it's worth errata. For example, I wouldn't houserule auto-engulfing. I would houserule that the DC for escaping an Ooze that hits a character directly is the same as for all discoveries (10+1/2 level + Intel)"
Auto-engulfing has no evidence anywhere in any textual document. Nor is there is anything that suggests the Ooze uses a discovery's save DC. What the Discovery says is...
"When the alchemist activates the extract, he actually throws the bottle at a square within 30 feet, releasing the ooze, which reconstitutes and attacks the closest creature."
The Ooze attacks. The OOZE attacks - not the Alchemist. And you're still using up actual useful spell slots for the incredibly crappy summon.
Menteith wrote: In that situation, I would hit the Rancor with a Sticky Confusion Bomb and then Sticky Tanglefoot Bomb the Orcs at the mouth of the tunnel, gluing 2 of the riders down which should seal off the area for at least a round and forcing 2 Ensnare saves on every other Orc/Dire Wolf within range. If a Cube can seal off the area, 2 Dire Wolves glued to the ground prevents anyone from passing through them without cutting the glue apart, which takes at least a round from them. Using a Cube lets you get eaten by the Rancor, while a Confusion Bomb gives a 75% chance of it not killing you (I like those odds).
To address the problems individually:
If you can move to safety and take an extract, you can move to safety and throw your cube, long as it's within 30' of target.
If you full attack this round, Rancor has a 50% chance of destroying you with a BBEG full attack (act normally=kill you. attack nearest creature=kill you). And that's if you hit him. Likely, but not guaranteed. IMO, people put a little too much faith in Confusion.
Why exactly is it hard for the dire wolves to jump over their buddies? The bomb sticks targets to the floor but does nothing to even create difficult terrain.
If your alchemist is 10th level, he can't have Force Bombs and Fast Bombs and Confusion Bombs and Sticky Bombs. If he's higher than 11, he can afford a tougher ooze. If he's 11, he skipped Alchemical Simulacrum and Doppelganger Simulacrum and Mummification, all of which will help keep him alive. Also, by putting out that much firepower (confusing/tangling sticky bombs) he attracts enough attention to become the prime target of everything in that arena. Ya done painted a big bullseye on yerself and have no backup body.
We concede that the cannon is glass; we can at least make it masterwork.
By the way, Ment, I enjoy all your comments and feedback. Keep 'em coming.
joeyfixit wrote:
If you can move to safety and take an extract, you can move to safety and throw your cube, long as it's within 30' of target
If you full attack this round, Rancor has a 50% chance of destroying you with a BBEG full attack (act normally=kill you. attack nearest creature=kill you). And that's if you hit him. Likely, but not guaranteed. IMO, people put a little too much faith in Confusion.
01-25 Act normally
26-50 Do nothing but babble incoherently
51-75 Deal 1d8 points of damage + Str modifier to self with item in hand
76-100 Attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject's self)
So he goes after Orcs? If he's closer to you than he is to the Orcs, take an attack action to Confuse him and move away from both him and the Orcs, then unleash hell on them afterwards. The Cube does nothing to affect him in your example either way - he's completely unaffected by it when you throw it at the Orcs, and your strategy will result in you dying if no one else stops him. I like my way (75% survival chance) better than 100% death chance.
You're building a bomber. If you can't hit a (Presumably Huge size or greater) creature with a touch attack you fail in a fundamental way.
joeyfixit wrote:
Why exactly is it hard for the dire wolves to jump over their buddies? The bomb sticks targets to the floor but does nothing to even create difficult terrain.
Except the Ensnared condition cuts movement speed in half, stops them from running or charging, and gives a -4 Dex penalty. Depending on how high they need to jump, they're looking at a 20+ Acrobatics check with significant penalties, and even if they make it over the glued targets, they're moving more slowly than you are and you can just run away.
EDIT for math
Dire Wolves have a base speed of 50 ft. They have a +6 Ref save, meaning that they'll be ensnared 75% of the time from the splash of a Tanglefoot Bomb. If they have to save against 2 of them, there is a 87.5% chance they'll be ensnared. If they are, they drop to a 25 ft/round speed negating their speed bonus to Acrobatics, and take a -4 Dex hit giving them a +0 on their Acrobatics checks to jump while ensnared. If a Large animal glued to the ground is 5 feet high, they have to pull a nat 20 to jump over their friends.
joeyfixit wrote:
If your alchemist is 10th level, he can't have Force Bombs and Fast Bombs and Confusion Bombs and Sticky Bombs. If he's higher than 11, he can afford a tougher ooze. If he's 11, he skipped Alchemical Simulacrum and Doppelganger Simulacrum and Mummification, all of which will help keep him alive. Also, by putting out that much firepower (confusing/tangling sticky bombs) he attracts enough attention to become the prime target of everything in that arena. Ya done painted a big bullseye on yerself and have no backup body.
Level 8: Fast Bombs
Level 9: Extra Discovery - Confusion Bomb
Level 10: Sticky Bombs
What CR4 is significantly better? Gray Ooze is still terrible in that fight. And you are still using extract slots for this, which are way more valuable than a Bomb. I can pull up my old Bomber build if you want. You have D8 HP, good Reflex and Fortitude saves, some of the best defensive buffs ever, and pick up +Dex/Nat Armor from Mutagen. You have more defensive abilities than most people, don't pretend like Alchemists are going to get 1 hit killed by a normal fight. I do love me some Doppelganger Simulacrum, but I generally don't get it until level 14. If my biggest problem is that I'm being too awesome and people want to stop me, I can live with that.
EDIT
Glad to :)
I love the Alchemist. It has my favorite parts of Arcane Casters and is a lot fairer than they are. Fantasticly unique abilities that have a large range of customization and effects. I'm glad to have someone to talk to about it :).
"The rancor has his eye on you." It's implied that you're closest.
Every attack roll has a 5% chance of failure. The more rolls between you and your objective (bomb has to hit, creature gets a Confusion roll), the greater the chances that your stated objective will fail.
Okay, so you threw a Confusion Bomb at the Rancor. I'll roll for you. (rolls dice). You got a 6. You must have pretty good buffs from your Dex Mutagen, and he's a giant monster. You hit. He's under the effect of a confusion spell.
Now you move away.
Next up in initiative order are two of the Orc/Wolves riding in the arena. One of the wolves tries to grapple your fighter. It fails, but the Orc clonks him on the head with a mace. Another one tries to grapple your wizard. It succeeds. The fighter is next. He tries to get the wolf off of the wizard. He succeeds on his grapple. Next up is more orcs/wolves coming through. One tries to grapple the wizard. It succeeds. Wizard is clonked on head. The other tries to grapple the fighter. Fails. Next up is ranger, who's safely out of range. Shoots at wolf grappling wizard, kills it. Next up is more riders. One is hit by opportunity attack from fighter, kills orc but not wolf. Wolf grapples wizard. Next up is Rancor. Rancor rolls. (rolls dice) Gets an 89. Attacks nearest creature. It's not you, but let's say it's 50/50 whether it's somebody in your party. Let's say you're like the summoner at my game and you always want low. (rolls dice) 57. It's not Ranger, since he's safely away. High it's Fighter, Low it's Wizard. (rolls) 56! Lucky break. He would have killed your wizard. Rancor rolls, hits, gets a bazillion damage. Fighter has to make a system shock roll. He makes it. Now it's wizard's turn. Wizard puts some kind of wall over the tunnel to prevent more enemies from getting through. Now it's your turn again. Your wizard is hurt, your fighter is hurt bad, and your ranger looks pissed.
What should have happened:
You throw gelatinous cube and move away. Instead of charging through, first orcs up are surprised, have to roll to avoid charging into it. Next wolves up start attacking it. They'll have it killed by the end of the round, but by then your fighter has either grabbed your wiz and got him to safety or got rancor's attention away from wizard. Your ranger full attacked it and started jacking him up. Assuming the wizard gets to go, he's tried to blind it or kill it or (assuming Rancor is like, The Tarrasque) is signaling for everyone to converge for a teleport to safety.
Yeah, it's a ridiculous, unfair straw man argument, and we could go about it all day, but I think I made my point.
joeyfixit wrote: lots of speculation about facts you're making up as you go, with an incredibly complicated scheme I can't post a response to since I don't have knowledge of my party, everyone's position, everyone's capabilities, and layout of the arena. Look, if we're bringing other people into the mix you have to give me that information. I can guarantee you I can find a better way to use my actions if I have more information.
joeyfixit wrote:
What should have happened:
You throw gelatinous cube and move away. Instead of charging through, first orcs up are surprised, have to roll to avoid charging into it. Next wolves up start attacking it. They'll have it killed by the end of the round, but by then your fighter has either grabbed your wiz and got him to safety or got rancor's attention away from wizard. Your ranger full attacked it and started jacking him up. Assuming the wizard gets to go, he's tried to blind it or kill it or (assuming Rancor is like, The Tarrasque) is signaling for everyone to converge for a teleport to safety.
I honestly don't understand your obsession with G. Cubes. If there's an Orc with class levels it's going to murder it in a single full attack - christ, it has an AC of 4. If they're just a bunch of CR 1/2 Orcs on CR 3 Dire Wolves, I'm not even going to notice them if a Tarrasque is within a mile of me. If there's a Tarrasque present and I'm level 7, I'm going to use Wings to get the hell out of there immediately and then punch the DM for forcing us into an Arena situation with something that will tear through unprepared parties.
If I do care about the Orcs - it's a Dire Tiger or something, not a Tarrasque in the way or something they're on CR6 Huge Wolves and all have class levels that make them halfway relevant, I can still Full Attack forcing them all to make Ref21 and Fort21 save or sucks while dealing actual damage to them. If it's a Dire Tiger, I might even try a Tanglefoot Bomb on it to shut down Pounce, and it only has a 50% chance to make the save against it - and I can try up to 3 times. I have a 87.5% chance to entangle the thing if I Full Attack it, which prevents it from closing with me that round even if I don't move. That leaves the Orcs open to do stuff if I need to use every attack I have on the Tiger, but you listed multiple party members, they should be doing stuff to take care of that.
joeyfixit wrote:
Yeah, it's a ridiculous, unfair straw man argument, and we could go about it all day, but I think I made my point.
Wait, what? I homebrewed a monster that destroys all oozes in a 50ft radius as an immediate action. Yeah, it's a ridiculous, unfair straw man argument but I think I made my point. >.>
You can create absurd situations all you want. At the end of the day, you're taking a Discovery (in a really Discovery starved build - try fitting Wings, let alone Mummification into a Bomber build without dropping core Discoveries) that uses up your Extract Slots (which are way better spent on using your amazing buffs) to create a Monster with +2 to hit, a Ref12 save or die, and an AC of 4 with no other relevant abilities. That you don't control.
Here are the raw facts.
Assuming you take Bottled Ooze at level 7, you will be able to Summon an uncontrolled G. Cube for 7 rounds at the cost of one of your three Level 3 Extracts. These extracts include Heroism, Fly, Haste, Protection from Energy, all of the Remove Debuff spells, Burst of Speed, and Displacement.
The Cube has an AC of 4, a single attack at +2 that forces a DC20 Fort save or die if it hits, a DC12 Ref save or die special attack, and 50 HP. Again, it's uncontrollable. Lets see how it matches up against a CR7 creature - the stuff that you should be fighting at level 7. I'll use a Dire Bear since that's the only CR7 I can remember off the top of my head.
Our Dire Bear (lets call him Phil) has an AC of 18. The Cube hits him 25% of the time, meaning he's missing 3/4 attacks. Doing nothing for 3/4 rounds. If he hits, he hits for 2d6 (1d6 + 1d6 acid), which averages 7 damage on the Bear's 95 HP. If the Bear gets hit, he makes his Fort save 60% of the time - the save only works 40% of the time. On any given attack, the Cube will need to both hit and Phil needs to fail his save to make a noticeable contribution - this happens (.25 * .4) = 10% of the time. 10% of the time our Cube will actually do something relevant on its attack. If it goes for its Engulf, Phil makes his save on everything but a 1, 2, or 3; 15% of the time. If he's engulfed, he has no issues breaking the Pin and taking the ~7 damage if he beats the Fort check, which he will a majority of the time.
Now, Phil is a bit upset that this Cube suddenly appeared in his cave and is smacking him about. If he had a better Int score he would ignore it and walk around it, seeing as how his movement is more than double the Cube's. If he wants to attack the thing, he hits on everything but a nat 1. He will successfully hit with every attack a little over 85% of the time, dealing 31.5 damage on average. He drops him in 2 hits, and won't take any damage from him most of the time. Nothing is stopping him from simply walking around the Ooze, which is left in his dust since it HAS 15 FEET OF MOVEMENT. At most, you cost Phil 10 feet of movement to walk around the Cube.
Now, this is when the Ooze is at its best. This is the best summon from the Discovery up until level 11, when you can start to waste even better spells to summon monsters that stopped being dangerous 7 levels ago. The Cube will scale worse and worse as time goes on, and is replaced with the Grey Ooze.
Mr. Gray has the same HP as the Cube, an AC of 5, A MOVEMENT SPEED OF 10 FEET PER ROUND, and, as before, a single attack at +6. Look, that's just awful. If it hits anyone it deals pathetic damage and can try to grapple, which is probably worse for the Ooze than its target since its medium size with a Strength of 16. It can't win a grapple check at level 11. You're better off using the awful Cube, since at least that "might" be able to affect a slow moving target that rolls a nat 1 on its reflex save and then praying they don't make a Fort Save.
Mummification and Wings, you say? I did it already.
The final build is a little different. Trade the Zombies in for Fast Bombs, and Strafe Bomb for nothing (only 1 flaw). He also started at level 11 instead of 10. There's probably something else I'm missing.
Yeah, simulacra are nice, but you really have to go with either Mummification or the Sims; you can't have both and my group has enough Cheese Queens without me ordering a bunch of clones around.
If I had to do it over again, I would trade the Frost Bombs in for Infusion. Live and learn. It may be my next discovery, if we ever level.
Mmm. Cheese Queens.
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joeyfixit wrote: Mummification and Wings, you say? I did it already.
The final build is a little different. Trade the Zombies in for Fast Bombs, and Strafe Bomb for nothing (only 1 flaw). He also started at level 11 instead of 10. There's probably something else I'm missing.
Yeah, simulacra are nice, but you really have to go with either Mummification or the Sims; you can't have both and my group has enough Cheese Queens without me ordering a bunch of clones around.
If I had to do it over again, I would trade the Frost Bombs in for Infusion. Live and learn. It may be my next discovery, if we ever level.
Mmm. Cheese Queens.
You don't have, well, any of the stuff I'd actually associate with a Bomber. Off the top of my head, here's what I'd generally associate with the build;
Half Orc Mindchemist
Favored Class: Alchemist
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (20 point buy)
Traits
Legacy of Sand
Reactionary
Racial Traits
+2 Intelligence
Darkvision
Orc Blood
(Alternative) Sacred Tattoo
(Alternative) Scavenger
Add +1 Int at (4), (8), (12), (16), (20)
Feats
Splash Weapon Mastery (1), Extra Discovery: Precise Bombs (3), Extra Discovery: Smoke Bomb (5), Two Weapon Fighting (7), Extra Discovery: Confusion Bomb (9), Force Bomb (11), Extra Discovery: Alchemical Simulacrum (13), Extra Discovery: Extend Potion (15), Extra Discovery: Elixir of Life (17), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (19)
Discoveries
Infusion (2), Tanglefoot Bomb (4), Smoke Bomb (5), Stink Bomb (6), Fast Bombs (8), Confusion Bomb (9), Sticky Bomb (10), Force Bomb (11) Tumor Familiar taking a Compsognathus (12), Alchemical Simulacrum (13) Doppelganger Simulacrum (14), Extend Potion (15), Eternal Potion (16), Elixir of Life (17), Enhance Potion (18), Grand Discovery: Awakened Intellect (20)
Obviously, flaws can improve the build, but I would never assume that a player can take them as they can quickly overpower a build. No offense, but I don't think that your build is "that" strong. Tumor Familiar taking a Compsognathus is superior to Improved Initiative. Dodge and Mobility are both pretty weak, and Shot on the Run while nice isn't worth 3 different feats. I don't agree with the PB Shot --> Precise Shot --> Rapid Shot over 2W Fighting unless you're planning on taking Improved Precise Shot, and even then it's a debatable call. You can't force a saving through outside of Force Bombs, and even then it's only Prone which doesn't hurt a caster. I personally like Half Orc for Bombers since their Favored Class Alternative gives effectively +1 damage/level per bomb when you factor in Sticky Bomb, they give +2 Int, and Darkvision is actually decent. I technically "could" cut the Smoke Bomb --> Stink Bomb chain, but Stink Bomb is so wonderfully overpowered, and it scales with your level extremely well - ditto Tanglefoot Bag. At level 20, he ends up with a +33 Save DC on his Bombs, gets a total of 5/round that should all hit Touch without a problem, and each deal (10d6+23) + 33 damage on the next round and which splash for 33 damage each, for a total of ~340 damage on the first round, and 505 damage on every round after Sticky Bomb sticks.
EDIT
I could probably squeeze more damage out the build depending on what Eternal Potion ends up being. Extend Potion + Alchemical Allotment means you should have some combination of Barkskin+5, Elixir of Hiding (+10 Stealth), Elixir of Vision (+10 Perception), Tounges, Resist Energy 30 (any), Magic Circle Against X (you can have multiples up), Nondetection, Heroism, and probably a few buffs I'm forgetting up constantly. I'd recommend Haste for the Eternal Potion, but there are other decent options. Point is, you can rock enough buffs to make a DMM Cleric blush if you try hard enough (well, not really...stupid DMM). If you can find a way to take Enhance Potion and Extend Potion together you get access to all sorts of fun stuff. With an Int of 36 you have 8 Alchemical Allotments available, every potion with a duration of 10m/level lasts for just under 7 hours, everything with a duration of hours/level lasts for 40 hours, and you consume none of these buffs.
Menteith wrote: Here are the raw facts.
Assuming you take Bottled Ooze at level 7, you will be able to Summon an uncontrolled G. Cube for 7 rounds at the cost of one of your three Level 3 Extracts. These extracts include Heroism, Fly, Haste, Protection from Energy, all of the Remove Debuff spells, Burst of Speed, and Displacement.
Well, this one's easy. You tell me that there are only three level 3 extracts, and then you name 8 that are vital. You're talking about Schrodinger's Alchemist. By the way, you probably only have one of them at level 7.
Heroism - you don't need it in your extracts. Like I said in my guide, it's better as a potion. As a daily, it's orange or red.
Haste - Awesome mostly because it gives you an extra full attack. At level 7, you can't full attack with multiple bombs, so that's not on my dailies.
Fly - Planning on a lot of flying? Get wings. Matter of fact, I'm bumping that down to green for that very fact. Thanks:)
Protection from Energy - Somewhat circumstantial, and if you have this you should have it as a potion. You don't have detonate yet, so this doesn't need to be in your dailies.
Remove Blindness/Deafness - This is the cleric's job. No cleric? We're talking about a different build. Even so, it should be a potion, not a daily.
Remove Curse - Same as above, but slightly better. Worth a potion, not a daily.
Remove Disease - Same as above. Also, antiplague is cheaper and you can probably make that.
Burst of Speed - If you're flying, you really don't need this yet. If not, you should potion this ASAP.
Displacement - Great buff. Potion it before most of these others.
As you can see, your ability to make 3rd level extracts into Potions is changing the game. More importantly, every round you spend buffing is a round that you didn't attack or do anything to change the conditions of the battlefield. If you desperately need one of the above, starting with a well-placed cube isn't a bad idea because your enemies need to deal with it while you're buffing. And you've changed the reality of the battlefield.
If it's just me and Phil, why did I bother throwing a cube at him? Why didn't I just fly to where he can't reach me and bomb him until he drops?
Like you said, 15% of the time, Phil gets engulfed by a Gelatinous cube and can do nothing for the next 7ish rounds. More importantly, every swipe of the claws Phil throws at Cubey is one he didn't throw at my friends. Can Phil do 50 damage in one round? (I honestly have no idea). If not, then that's two rounds that I or my buddies got to reposition, or escape, or take Phil down.
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joeyfixit wrote:
Well, this one's easy. You tell me that there are only three level 3 extracts, and then you name 8 that are vital. You're talking about Schrodinger's Alchemist. By the way, you probably only have one of them at level 7.
That's because Alchemists actually are Schordinger's Alchemists. Since it only takes 1m of time to prepare a spell in the field, you have no reason to ever fill your slots unless you KNOW combat is coming up. I personally like to leave all but my Infused Extracts and a single CLW for myself if I'm dropped below 0 open.
joeyfixit wrote:
Heroism - you don't need it in your extracts. Like I said in my guide, it's better as a potion. As a daily, it's orange or red.
Haste - Awesome mostly because it gives you an extra full attack. At level 7, you can't full attack with multiple bombs, so that's not on my dailies.
Fly - Planning on a lot of flying? Get wings. Matter of fact, I'm bumping that down to green for that very fact. Thanks:)
It's for giving them out to others. Again, I have a hard time evaluating them without considering Infusion since is it that good. Haste and Fly both have a tendency toward getting handed out like candy toward our melee, so they can use them when we expect combat.
joeyfixit wrote:
Protection from Energy - Somewhat circumstantial, and if you have this you should have it as a potion. You don't have detonate yet, so this doesn't need to be in your dailies.
Remove Blindness/Deafness - This is the cleric's job. No cleric? We're talking about a different build. Even so, it should be a potion, not a daily.
Remove Curse - Same as above, but slightly better. Worth a potion, not a daily.
Remove Disease - Same as above. Also, antiplague is cheaper and you can probably make that.
These are for other people. Almost all of my 2nd levels are already being spent on self buffing with Alchemical Allotment, so I don't have a ton of AAs to hand out for other people to use my potions. I keep these open because there's really no reason to not do so, so that I can cure every status condition that comes up with 1m prep time.
joeyfixit wrote:
Burst of Speed - If you're flying, you really don't need this yet. If not, you should potion this ASAP.
Displacement - Great buff. Potion it before most of these others.
As you can see, your ability to make 3rd level extracts into Potions is changing the game. More importantly, every round you spend buffing is a round that you didn't attack or do anything to change the conditions of the battlefield. If you desperately need one of the above, starting with a well-placed cube isn't a bad idea because your enemies need to deal with it while...
I'm not the one using most of these. I'll agree with you if you don't have Infusion, and prepare all of your Extracts each morning, but why would you do either of these terrible, terrible things? Also, stop with the Cube - seriously. I have the option of dropping the laughably useless monster or dropping a relatively high DC Tanglefoot Bomb or Stink Bomb, I'll go with the one that can actually stop enemies.
The point about the Dire Bear is that the Cube will almost never hit him - also the Engulf isn't a Save or Die since a Dire Bear can actually break the pin without a problem and will make the Fort save a majority of the time. I'm pointing out that under optimal conditions (the most even fight you'll ever see, since Bottled Ooze gets worse every level up) Bottled Ooze still doesn't really make a more noticeable contribution to a fight. Yeah, it technically does something about 10% of the time, but a Bomb will do something a lot more often and will inflict actual damage even if they make the save.
Menteith wrote: joeyfixit wrote: Mummification and Wings, you say? I did it already.
The final build is a little different. Trade the Zombies in for Fast Bombs, and Strafe Bomb for nothing (only 1 flaw). He also started at level 11 instead of 10. There's probably something else I'm missing.
Yeah, simulacra are nice, but you really have to go with either Mummification or the Sims; you can't have both and my group has enough Cheese Queens without me ordering a bunch of clones around.
If I had to do it over again, I would trade the Frost Bombs in for Infusion. Live and learn. It may be my next discovery, if we ever level.
Mmm. Cheese Queens.
You don't have, well, any of the stuff I'd actually associate with a Bomber. Off the top of my head, here's what I'd generally associate with the build;
Half Orc Mindchemist
Favored Class: Alchemist
STR: 10 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 20 WIS: 10 CHA: 7 (20 point buy)
Traits
Legacy of Sand
Reactionary
Racial Traits
+2 Intelligence
Darkvision
Orc Blood
(Alternative) Sacred Tattoo
(Alternative) Scavenger
Add +1 Int at (4), (8), (12), (16), (20)
Feats
Splash Weapon Mastery (1), Extra Discovery: Precise Bombs (3), Extra Discovery: Smoke Bomb (5), Two Weapon Fighting (7), Extra Discovery: Confusion Bomb (9), Force Bomb (11), Extra Discovery: Alchemical Simulacrum (13), Extra Discovery: Extend Potion (15), Extra Discovery: Elixir of Life (17), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (19)
Discoveries
Infusion (2), Tanglefoot Bomb (4), Smoke Bomb (5), Stink Bomb (6), Fast Bombs (8), Confusion Bomb (9), Sticky Bomb (10), Force Bomb (11) Tumor Familiar taking a Compsognathus (12), Alchemical Simulacrum (13) Doppelganger Simulacrum (14), Extend Potion (15), Eternal Potion (16), Elixir of Life (17), Enhance Potion (18), Grand Discovery: Awakened... Where's improved Familiar? Isn't it required for a Compy?
I think between the two of us we illustrate that there is a LOT of room for variety between Alchemist builds, and two disparate ones can both be effective.
What may be confusing you is that my bomber is built for Stealth. Kobolds get it as a class skill, and get a bonus that stacks with their size bonus. At level 11, he's rocking something like a +28 without going invisible. The party has no rogue, but does have The Cleric That Will Live Forever despite the DM building encounter after encounter with the sole purpose of taking that nasty powergaming cleric out.
Things like Shot on the Run are there to keep the kobold alive. Kobolds get a -4 racial penalty to Constitution. Is this optimal? Nah. Done for RP reasons. For optimization, see the Wizard/Alchemist link.
Our party has a 5-tool Gold star Paladin, a Cleric that is stingy with healing and won't die (but will Hold Action. A lot), a Summoner coward who is also frequently cowardly with his superbuff'd Eidelon (but likes to swoop in for the kill when the BBEG is down to 9 HP), a monk who plays his monk well, but isn't a powergamer/rules lawyer and isn't much of a tactitian, and a wizard. The wizard is played by the DM's son and is bullied a lot by Dad and frequently thinks he knows more than he does. Not a terribly effective controller, in other words, but he's learning.
So that leaves me, the sneak/bomber, to do the controlling. I daresay that combat-wise I'm the most effective player outside of the Paladin, who roleplays really well, cuts the enemy in half, and somehow still gets in a lot more channels than the cleric. But often I am the one who frustrates GM's well-laid traps, sometimes with an arcane eye and more than once with a (wait for it!) Gelatinous Cube. Most recently he really wanted to hit me with an evil wizard's Save-or-Die but he had to get through my Greater Invisibility stacked with nondetection, and he failed his caster level check.
That said, if I had to do it over again I would do tons of things differently. I underestimated the value of familiars in general, for one thing. This guy was built with one purpose in mind: get in, deliver the bomb, get out. All without being spotted. He's pretty great at it, and he's pretty great at a lot of things out of combat. He also has wacky things like a Kobold Longbow that's only there to deliver poison. Once I started playing I realized I didn't really choose the right poisons for this adventure and that that strategy wasn't great.
A whole minute per extract? Couldn't do it on the dungeon crawl we're on (which has been going on since spring). DM would cream us.
That said, it only takes a minute to whip up a Cube, right? Why doesn't the GC get the same consideration?
I'll stop praising it's merits when you stop arguing them.
with the above seneario, i prob would have chucked stink bombs at the entrance. Lasts for 1 round per level, and they have to save or be nauseated, and that lasts for 1d4+1 rounds. So all they can do is run away :)
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joeyfixit wrote: Where's improved Familiar? Isn't it required for a Compy? Nope.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/familiar
joeyfixit wrote:
I think between the two of us we illustrate that there is a LOT of room for variety between Alchemist builds, and two disparate ones can both be effective.
This is true, but I would still say that a guide-writer has to know all of the different builds, their strengths and weaknesses, and most importantly WHY they're strong in those areas and weak in others.
joeyfixit wrote:
What may be confusing you is that my bomber is built for Stealth. Kobolds get it as a class skill, and get a bonus that stacks with their size bonus. At level 11, he's rocking something like a +28 without going invisible. The party has no rogue, but does have The Cleric That Will Live Forever despite the DM building encounter after encounter with the sole purpose of taking that nasty powergaming cleric out.
You can just take Highlander for +1 Stealth/+2 Stealth in hills and rocky areas, which also grants Stealth as a class skill. It's a trait out of the Advanced Player's Guide, if I remember right. I actually have a Half Orc Gish I'm working on (the build should be somewhere on this forum, look up Alchemist Archer Gish if you want to find him) who pulls +24 to stealth at level 5, if I have time to buff.
joeyfixit wrote:
Things like Shot on the Run are there to keep the kobold alive. Kobolds get a -4 racial penalty to Constitution. Is this optimal? Nah. Done for RP reasons. For optimization, see the Wizard/Alchemist link.
No, I get that, but I feel like you could spend 3 feats to gain more survival than you're picking up with Dodge, Mobility, and Shot on the Run. None of the feats are that spectacular. Shot on the Run isn't good with such a low movement rate, Dodge is really meh, and you have no reason to be taking AoO. That's why Wings + Withdraw Action or 5' step away + Full Attack (which hopefully will glue or nauseate them) are for. On top of that, you have a somewhat decent AC between Barkskin, decent Dex, and the Nat Armor bonus of the Mutagen. Disabling a target as quickly as possible is the safest way to survive, and that's what the bomber focuses on doing.
joeyfixit wrote:
Our party has a 5-tool Gold star Paladin, a Cleric that is stingy with healing and won't die (but will Hold Action. A lot), a Summoner coward who is also frequently cowardly with his superbuff'd Eidelon (but likes to swoop in for the kill when the BBEG is down to 9 HP), a monk who plays his monk well, but isn't a powergamer/rules lawyer and isn't much of a tactitian, and a wizard. The wizard is played by the DM's son and is bullied a lot by Dad and frequently thinks he knows more than he does. Not a terribly effective controller, in other words, but he's learning.
So that leaves me, the sneak/bomber, to do the controlling. I daresay that combat-wise I'm the most effective player outside of the Paladin, who roleplays really well, cuts the enemy in half, and somehow still gets in a lot more channels than the cleric. But often I am the one who frustrates GM's well-laid traps, sometimes with an arcane eye and more than once with a (wait for it!) Gelatinous Cube. Most recently he really wanted to hit me with an evil wizard's Save-or-Die but he had to get through my Greater Invisibility stacked with nondetection, and he failed his caster level check.
If you already have a Summoner, he could easily burn a single spell to create a longer lasting, faster moving, controlled, intelligent summon that can trigger traps for you. I've lost count of how many poor celestial monkeys have been blown up opening doors/chests for me. I've tried to make my point a few times, and all I can say about Bottled Ooze has been said. You waste a Discovery and your spells to summon monsters whose CR is less than half that of the party, which gets worse and worse the higher level you are. The Oozes summoned cannot compete physically with the monsters you should be fighting their +attack and damage is incredibly low, they are uncontrolled, last a short time, and will die in a single iterative of an appropriately level monster's full attack, the 30' range forces you to be WAY to close to melee for your health, their save DCs are just worse than what you should be able to put out with your Bombs and there are so many better Discoveries and Feats that you can get instead.
joeyfixit wrote:
A whole minute per extract? Couldn't do it on the dungeon crawl we're on (which has been going on since spring). DM would cream us.
That said, it only takes a minute to whip up a Cube, right? Why doesn't the GC get the same consideration?
Wait, really? Christ, I have never, in all my life, been on a dungeon crawl that's lasted over 6 months. Also, if you guys can't get a minute to prepare an extract, how do you replenish spells/extracts at all? You seriously can't take a minute out of combat to prepare a spell? Either your DM is metagaming hard to crush you (Monsters should have no way to know when you're preparing an Extract unless you're watched 24/7) or something really weird is going on. Sure, it only takes a minute to get a Cube, but it's a worthless summon, so why would I care to have it? Evaluate the effect of a single Bomb off my build at any point past level 10 vs. summoning a CR3-4 Ooze. Hell, do after I get Tanglefoot Bomb and I can tell you I'd rather use the Bomb.
@Zakur - It lasts a round. All of the other Smoke Bomb derivatives last round/level, Stink Bomb is only a round (which is good, since it breaks the game already).
Who has ten rounds in the middle of a battle to whip up an extract?
6 months isn't right. I don't know why I said that. The kobold didn't even enter my brain until September.
Kobold gets something like a +8 just for being a Kobold.
Incidentally, this is nowhere near as good as a goblin is at stealthing. I rolled up a goblin rogue a little while ago who had a +20 at level 1. Without the Stealthy feat. (Hint: +4 Dex Bonus helps)
Low movement rate? I can fly at 60, 90 hasted.
Bottled Ooze - had this discussion. I was convinced of their potential, tried 'em out, and they work. Summoned creatures are about more than whether or not they can put an enemy down or tank indefinitely. Not gonna say anything more about it.
Re: me not being qualified to write a guide - k, now you're being aggressive. If you have beefs with specific things in my rankings you take issue with, I'd love to hear them. But don't get your hackles raised if I decide to defend something in it. I appreciate your input and I honestly will think about knocking the BO down to green. But if you think you can do better, well... do it.
No, really. Not being sarcastic. The lack of a decent, up-to-date guide is the main reason I'm writing it. To be honest, I learned quite a bit when I examined everything, step-by-step, and had to rank them. Tumor familiars, for example, didn't even register on my radar until I had to put think it through and put a color to it. And to build a guide that covers melee, buffer/healer AND ranged attacker is a bigger task than you think at first. I would say my guide focuses on delivering the bombs and having options when the bomb doesn't work.
joeyfixit wrote: Who has ten rounds in the middle of a battle to whip up an extract? You don't ever use it in combat. You use it to prepare for specific situations before they come up; you find yourself in an area where the party needs stealth? You burn slots to give out Extracts of Invisibility. Impassable Gorge? Extracts of Fly. You learn that you're tracking a monster with Fire Breath? Protection from Fire. And so on. Most of the Extract list is actually really bad for in combat use.
joeyfixit wrote:
Bottled Ooze - had this discussion. I was convinced of their potential, tried 'em out, and they work. Summoned creatures are about more than whether or not they can put an enemy down or tank indefinitely. Not gonna say anything more about it.
Alright, but that's not exactly an argument in their favor. Oozes can't stop an enemy from walking around them (meaning they can't tank), can't control an enemy because of weak DCs and attacks, and have no unique properties. I just don't get what you see in them.
joeyfixit wrote:
Re: me not being qualified to write a guide - k, now you're being aggressive. If you have beefs with specific things in my rankings you take issue with, I'd love to hear them. But don't get your hackles raised if I decide to defend something in it. I appreciate your input and I honestly will think about knocking the BO down to green. But if you think you can do better, well... do it.
Not saying you're unqualified :). I perhaps phrased that wrong, and I'm sorry about it. What I meant to say was you need to be able to illustrate the benefits of each unique feature to a skeptical reader. I'm a fairly skeptical reader who is familiar with the Alchemist, and I disagree with some of the suggestions you've made.
joeyfixit wrote:
No, really. Not being sarcastic. The lack of a decent, up-to-date guide is the main reason I'm writing it. To be honest, I learned quite a bit when I examined everything, step-by-step, and had to rank them. Tumor familiars, for example, didn't even register on my radar until I had to put think it through and put a color to it. And to build a guide that covers melee, buffer/healer AND ranged attacker is a bigger task than you think at first. I would say my guide focuses on delivering the bombs and having options when the bomb doesn't work.
Oh, I know, and I appreciate that you're doing this. I'm in finals until Christmas so basically everything RPG related is on hold for me. I'm trying to give you the best feedback I can using my own experience and suggestions to improve your guide - if you don't want to use that, that's fine, and I can bow out of the thread.
No unique properties? (Grumble) Here we go again.
Engulfing, wrecking gear with acid, immune to electricity - these are all just traits from the Gelatinous Cube. One of many Oozes.
But I said I was done with that topic.
Re: Hurt feelings - nah, don't worry about it. In fact, I apologize for making it personal. I'm rocking a fever hovering around 100 this weekend (one of the reasons I have time to sit around and write a guide for this dumb game) and I'm tired and grouchy. Your feedback is appreciated and I welcome it.
Would you believe, I never actually noticed the "one minute preparation" caveat? Hell, the wording even gives you a pretty heavy hint in the same line. All of my alchemists just became a lot more effective. Nevertheless, I think limited extract progression justifies most of the rankings I handed out.
joeyfixit wrote:
Re: Hurt feelings - nah, don't worry about it. In fact, I apologize for making it personal. I'm rocking a fever hovering around 100 this weekend (one of the reasons I have time to sit around and write a guide for this dumb game) and I'm tired and grouchy. Your feedback is appreciated and I welcome it.
I've been a bit of an ass too. Yay, BioChem Final in 36 hours :(. We'll agree to disagree about the Oozes, then.
joeyfixit wrote:
Would you believe, I never actually noticed the "one minute preparation" caveat? Hell, the wording even gives you a pretty heavy hint in the same line. All of my alchemists just became a lot more effective. Nevertheless, I think limited extract progression justifies most of the rankings I handed out.
Maybe. It makes all of the situational things potentially awesome - you can justify even really niche stuff like Touch of the Sea, Detect Undead, Blood Transcription, any skill booster, etc since with 1m prep time you can use them. That's a big reason I love the Alchemist so much, you can cast literally anything off your spell list. That's also why I value my Extract slots so much - as long as I have some open, I can solve hundreds of different situations.
BioChem. Natch.
All situational things are potentially awesome, but you still have to pick 'em. Given that, it's nice to have them ranked, I think. You're still going to take True Strike and Reduce Person before adjuring step. Probably the prelude to extracts will include something like "If you have the chance to acquire something, take it. No matter what it is. Even if it costs a little gold. If you have a choice and can't decide which to take, here's a handy guide."
That said, one of the things that drives this guide is action economy; you can only have so many buffs before the battle is happening without you. You're at a distinct disadvantage with Mister Wizard and Mister Cleric in that you can't buff multiple people at once, and if you're handing out potions/extracts, they have to take an action to use them. And somebody has to fight the bad guys.
Menteith wrote: I actually tend to burn my level 1 feat for Extra Discovery: Infusion. I'm weird, I know. Unless you houserule it, you can't take Extra Discovery until level 2 Alchemist when they gain the Discovery ability.
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