Goblin Squad Member
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I wonder if a coating won't get tested well enough / underrepresented in crowdforging when all the EE backers don't have access to their DT yet. I'm just guessing the vast majority will go combat main and crafting alt. If this is the case, the priority level may have to be bumped up. Could be wrong though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would the accounts that have an undefined DT and a long-time character that might spawn an instant long-time twin more insanely valuable than the accounts with a defined DT, with a lot of XP, that hasn't spent any of it?Let's say the game is 5 years old, and someone has a Day One account with Destiny's Twin and a Day One character that has earned XP the whole five years but the Twin was never declared. Let's assume there's no limit as to how far back the XP accrual goes for the Twin.
I could effectively create a 5 year old character ON DEMAND. The flexibility that implies is enormous. And the value some players would attach to that capability is also enormous. It would be a potential "I win" button in some finite but potential circumstances.
Here is the add on question.
Its still in the plan to let someone gain xp and not spend it correct?
I guess the counter to that (which is the plan AFAIK) is that starting stats are similarly relevant to accessing high-tier game content and abilities and viability as it is in tabletop. I.e. nobody wanting a top notch high level Wizard has a character with 11 or 12 starting INT. If you made a 'generic' character that could have XP developed into any direction, you would have no (or few) dump stats and barely above average in all areas, so you could develop a wide range of class role abilities with those as pre-reqs. But you couldn't reach to the top levels of those ability scores necessary for each role. Of course for similar roles, e.g. Fighter/Barbarian, there may not be much stat distinction, and you could make a choice like that later down the line (when classes like Barbarian actualy exist and are fleshed out vs. their Fighter counterparts) and just have a generic 'melee combat stat' destiny's twin character accruing unapplied XP. Although for that example, based off tabletop, we might say that CON would be even more important for Barbs than it is for Fighters).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Quandary, I believe the idea is that everyone's character starts off at the same ability scroes (say, everyone starts at a 10 in each stat, modified by racial mods). Then the way to improve abilities after that is to take skills which use the relevant ability score. For example, if you want to play a melee assassin type you may come to a point where you have to train archery to improve your DEX enough for another level of stealthing, or maybe you have to train axes and spears to be able to increase your sword and dagger masteries. Actual skills were just made up, but you get the idea.
Then again, I don't think it's been stated how each character will start off. So I could be off the mark here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Then I would say, the fear of making an all of a sudden god character lost its teeth. The only difference is the name of the character, someone spawning one years down the road could pick the name then as opposed to now.
Granted, I agree for other reasons to only have something like a couple month window to create a DT.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless there is some cap to how much spare XP a character can accumulate, it could be a very good investment to start paying for a large amount of characters, never spend any XP and then sell them a few years down the line.
I don't think the system should allow unlimited XP accumulation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am also thinking that any account that is DT-enabled will be worth quit a bit down the line, when the game becomes popular off course.
Unless they will be offering more Destiny Twin-type deals in the future but that seems unlikely since the feature cuts directly in their long term earnings. We are not talking shiny fluff here that loses its value, we are talking lifetime free extra XP here(as long as you sub), the main commodity for your character and needed if you want to progress.
I am sometimes wondering if GW feels they gave away too much with the DT deal; then again, when the game is successful, the amount of DT-enabled accounts will be tiny compared to the whole.
Personally I thought the DT feature was a great offer, for which I made 2 extra pledge accounts. I am sure I was not alone in this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, if your paying for it, then there shouldnt be a problem.
The same argument could be used for GW selling items and XP from their shop.
I know it's inevitable that people will buy and sell characters and that GW have mentioned that they might act as brokers in such transactions. I just think that a cap of maybe a few months of unspent XP could perhaps decrease the incentive to run a character nursery business.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, if your paying for it, then there shouldnt be a problem.The same argument could be used for GW selling items and XP from their shop.
I know it's inevitable that people will buy and sell characters and that GW have mentioned that they might act as brokers in such transactions. I just think that a cap of maybe a few months of unspent XP could perhaps decrease the incentive to run a character nursery business.
The difference is that XP is gained through time, if you can just buy xp from the shop then you have a distinct advantage over someone that has been playing for a long time. Or its just pay to win if you can buy as much xp as you want.
Dont get me wrong, I dont think GW should let people sell characters for RL money either. The problem is that there is no real way to stop it, so they will make money from it instead.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Unless there is some cap to how much spare XP a character can accumulate, it could be a very good investment to start paying for a large amount of characters, never spend any XP and then sell them a few years down the line.
I think people will do this. I'm more comfortable with it because they'll have to pay the freight to accumulate that XP and that helps sustain the game with each payment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan, I keep getting impressed by how realistic your approach is to many things that seem to "plague" MMO's and social interaction on the internet in general. I hope GW will broker these transactions so they will be safe and legit.
I was wondering about one thing: I was told that you stated some time ago that more then 1 character on the same account could log in simultaneously, however in the Destiny Twins description on the Kickstarter page it sais that the Twin characters can not be logged in at the same time. Is this still true?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Destiny's Twin characters are intentionally designed to be more limited than an alt. So we intend to let you log in one or the other of the twins, but not both at the same time.
Which seems a reasonable trade-off for never having paid for a single experience point on the Twin.
As long as I can get the retroactive xp back to the Day 1 anchor character for the Twin it will end up okay as far as what was promised in the Kickstarter. I also hope that happens before OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt they'll be ready day one anyway, so we'll have to have some system to do them post creation of A.I hope DTs will be at least available on day 1 of OE if not slightly before.
Plus a lot of DTs will be crafters and I seem to remember reading that the crafting system will be a work in progress during EE. So a delay in the release of DTs might not be a bad thing.
I think it would be one of the more bad things for the health of the EE.
If most have their combat characters running but no crafter Twins up that's a dearth of craft testing and crowdforging available as they try to develop it. Getting Twins instituted would seem like a high priority to me so as many players as possible can be experimenting and reporting back on both combat and industrial elements in EE as they're iterated.
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my only issue with this system of small groups at a time is that in a game where we make the content, the first 4500 will have a clear advantage in wealth, level, gear, and community. they will have the biggest guilds and the most weight to throw around. that means newer player can be easily bullied into the corner with constant raids as well as economic hindrance.
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I think the first 4500 will not be a monolithic block. They might have the making for a few solid settlements, but won't dominate the game for long.
i know for a fact that if i were one of the first 4500 i would have a large guild and settlements. i would figure out the mechanics of the economy and corner markets then destroy outposts that conflicted with my interests.
but then again thats me...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Urman. The first people in will have some advantage of head start, but it will quickly be overcome by large organized groups that follow. Possibly quickly if there is ample space or slowly as things open up.
How the influx of latter EE and OE people are treated, integrated, and dealt with could slow things, but that would take a coordinated effort. EE players will be a drop in the bucket in one year after OE.
There are not enough EE players that contributed, as it is, if they expand monthly as they have described.
Edit: All of this assumes that the game will be successful and popular. It doesn't matter if that should prove false.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think the first 4500 will not be a monolithic block. They might have the making for a few solid settlements, but won't dominate the game for long.i know for a fact that if i were one of the first 4500 i would have a large guild and settlements. i would figure out the mechanics of the economy and corner markets then destroy outposts that conflicted with my interests.
but then again thats me...
How would you create a large guild that has that level of ability, or are you saying that you wouldn't bother being in the first wave unless you were also in such a guild?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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So we're not going to let the game degenerate so that the first people in are forever after the overlords of all who follow. Part of the Early Enrollment process is to figure out, collectively with the players, how the game should be developed. We don't want to screw ourselves by locking up all the Good Stuff(tm) for the first in the sandbox.
It sounds like with future content unavailable early on, that anybody in EE may end up with "nonoptimal builds" if they later decide to pursue certain paths (and even within the original core class roles, when more auxiliary material is released for those). So much of their advantage will be cancelled by that.
Some EE players will end up doing well. Others will be on the losing end of conflicts.
Perhaps new players can assemble coalitions which even draw in the losers of EE to take on the winners of EE.
Groups of hardcore MMO players will join later when the game is fully fleshed out and "worth it" and quickly leverage their organization and dedication.
Etc.
Who ends up with the most power personally will probably not swing wholly on the XP advantage accrued during EE.
I won't be surprised to see some EE players/groups maintain top status. But not exclusively, and they will still have to work for it.
It would be nice to hear more concrete plans for different Tiers of "Deeds" (what name was ever settled on?),
that itself is a major factor in Skill Progression, equally or more so with generic XP accumulation.
Unless there is some cap to how much spare XP a character can accumulate, it could be a very good investment to start paying for a large amount of characters, never spend any XP and then sell them a few years down the line.I think people will do this. I'm more comfortable with it because they'll have to pay the freight to accumulate that XP and that helps sustain the game with each payment.
If you're planning around this type of thing, does that mean your planned limits on player expansion will be based on ACTIVE players, rather than all XP accruing characters?
Will characters be directly salable between player accounts?If not people may just sell accounts anyways, so allowing the former in a transparent way seems better.
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the point of my post, was to draw attention to the possibility of people trying to do as i mentioned. use that early access to gain a foot hold.
How would you create a large guild that has that level of ability
it happens in literally every mmo.
or are you saying that you wouldn't bother being in the first wave unless you were also in such a guild?
i dont get how you arrived at this conclusion. i would play to play, but im also a person who would try to create a warlord type persona in the pvp aspects and control the economy... i'm lawful neutral like that.
So we're not going to let the game degenerate so that the first people in are forever after the overlords of all who follow.
how could you stop this? would you be active and ban/restrict for playing the game in a non-cheating way(not against your EULA) that seems like it would be a bad decision.
Part of the Early Enrollment process is to figure out, collectively with the players, how the game should be developed. We don't want to screw ourselves by locking up all the Good Stuff(tm) for the first in the sandbox.
as i asked previously how would you handle this if it did occur? and even if it wasnt in the first 4500, and instead in the first wave of 12,000, how would you prevent this early advantage?
keep in mind im not trying to be aggressive, or antagonistic, but ive seen this happen in EVERY mmo i have ever played. those are in games that have everyone playing at once. out of the 500k that play day one the few opportunistic players corner markets and powergame with guilds they create quickly and efficiently.
it seems to me the slow introduction system would allow for this to occur with a higher efficiency.
and to add, i like this slower introduction rate it is a very intelligent decision from a business POV.
(im not expecting an answer,this is more rhetorical)
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If you're planning around this type of thing, does that mean your planned limits on player expansion will be based on ACTIVE players, rather than all XP accruing characters?
We will decide on a rolling basis how many characters we think the game is ready and able to handle during peak usage times, and we'll vary the number of new accounts we enable to be created based on that analysis.
Will characters be directly salable between player accounts?
Eventually 100% yes. They will be sold, so I want a cut.
If not people may just sell accounts anyways, so allowing the former in a transparent way seems better.
Exactly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@TheSideKick, firstly if you are new to this corner of the boards I'd like to say welcome to the PFO discussion.
Secondly, though I definitely agree that getting in early gives a group an edge, I don't exactly see where you are going with that. Do you think they're going to be able to bully out everyone else who tries to climb up after them, or use their vast wealth to grief people and ruin others' game experience? In my experience, coming in with people more established in the game should be an expected thing for every group, and it is a disadvantage that many successful groups overcome. Though a group joining in later may have to be a fringe group to start, if they have the means and motive I doubt it'll be (relatively) long before they have enough strength to start making their way up the political ladder and challenging better established groups than their own. It's just a small advantage in the grand scheme.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We will decide on a rolling basis how many characters we think the game is ready and able to handle during peak usage times, and we'll vary the number of new accounts we enable to be created based on that analysis.
I take "rolling basis' to mean that the number of players permitted new characters will also vary with the number of players leaving the game. If a large group decides to migrate it may open additional slots, and this makes the number of available positions 'roll'.
Will abandoned characters be therefore deleted?
Most traditional MMOs allow a player to leave and their characters and in-game assets are saved against their eventual return. If abandoned characters are not deleted, then a large organization who leaves might return and take up their once-abandoned characters. In the interim GW has opened to more new players calculating a reduced population once the large outfit is gone.
It could lead to a population explosion if that large organization then decided to return suddenly.
So it seems extraordinary population management methods will be in the works.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Many (most?) people will make a lot of characters and play them to various stages of development before settling on the one they want to make part of the Twinning process. To force them to Twin the first character they make would suck and just give us an endless stream of "please help me" emails which we could either refuse (leading to unhappy customers) or fix (which means we shouldn't have forced them to choose too early in the first place.)The concept of "main" makes no sense in Pathfinder Online.
RyanD
Not sure if this has been asked/answered elsewhere, but do only the people who pledged on the kickstarter get access to the Destiny's Twin? Or is it anyone who has pledged at the Adventurer level or more?
Thanks!
Daz
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure if this has been asked/answered elsewhere, but do only the people who pledged on the kickstarter get access to the Destiny's Twin?I'm fairly certain it's limited to only those who pledged during the Kickstarter.
Thanks Nihimon!
Now I REALLY wish I had pledged when I originally meant to.. Stupid brain.
Daz