I don't really see anything in the rule saying it only applies to different mutagens, heck it's not even plural, and the line after seems to cover the whole "can't drink two different mutagens" angle. Besides, your argument is "well it doesn't say it's a alchemical bonus, or that you don't gain the normal benefit, so it stacks". Both of them are pretty rules lawyering, so don't try to use "that's not the intention" as a fall back lol.
I don´t need a fallback argument, my original argument stands.
The Mutagen description you keep bringing up was written long before the ragechemist was conceived and its absolutely clear that this rule is about using multiple Mutagens.
So in other words "yeah but that's not MEANT to affect this".
Cyan, I agree completely, however in cases where RAW is being used often the only thing anyone will listen to is more RAW.
Sleet, you are using RAW to argue something that is obviously not intended, do not turn around and say that other bits of the raw don't count because it doesn't suit you. It's either RAW or RAI, you don't get to switch half way through.
And, developers frequently add catch all terms to things to stop later add-ons breaking things, thus why bonuses of the same types don't normally stack and other handy rules.
No NO NO
What I´m saying is that the Rage Mutagen CHANGES the effect of your normal mutagen.No stacking needed therefore no rules are violated.I´m not trying to pick and choose what suits me best I´m trying to argument from your perspective.But that hasn´t gotten us anywhere, did it.Your entitled to your opinion and thats fine no hard feelings.
I don't understand where at any point the +6 and the +4 being added together wouldn't be stacking, and as I've pointed out it is the mutagen giving both bonuses, so they can't stack, I honestly can't see your logic here, so if you wish to agree to disagree that's fine with me.
But I will point out, you seem (from my view) to be quite happy to follow the raw when it comes to the +6 being untyped and it not specifically saying you get it instead of the +4, but not when it counts as a mutagen stacking effects. That's all I'm seeing.
I agree that line probably wasn't intended to affect this, but I also do not believe it was intended to get +10 strength at level 2, hell a barbarian doesn't even get a total of +8 too his stats from rage, and he's LOSING 2 armour for it.
The best way to convince me that you´re right on this is to mark it for faq and hope that it gets answered.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Happy to see some people found the faq button:)
Still think we need a couple more.
Where my Alchemist Players at.
Remember that you have to push the FAQ button on the OP,marking my previous post won´t help.
Shameless Bump:)
Reading what's been said, and then reading the rule, I'd really suggest you just houserule the bonuses to become a +2 str/ac or so.
The rage mutagen text does not say "+6 in addition to normal bonuses..." or anything such, it says: "whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen grants the ragechemist a +6 bonus to Strength..." suggesting that it replaces the bonus of the mutagen used currently.
With that said, I personally went with a bonus to all str using mutagens equal to the difference between a basic str mutagen and a rage mutagen, adding that bonus to any future strength mutagen.
But other people are right as well in my opinion, this is a disappointing piece of poo, penaltied too much considering the bonuses, and while sounding cool, making you look less like Hulk, and more like Pass-out.'
If ya want Mr.Hyde, stick to normal mutagen, ask the gm to change out the feral mutagen's claws with slam attacks, and SMASH!
/rant off.
I do believe this has been finalized by the 'proper authorities' now... Link and quote:
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9p07
Alchemist: Is the Strength bonus for the rage mutagen ability of the ragechemist archetype (page 25) in addition to the normal bonus for a Strength mutagen?
No, the +6 replaces the normal +4 Strength bonus of the alchemist’s Strength mutagen. This will be updated in a future printing of Ultimate Combat as follows:
Page 25—In the Ragechemist archetype, in the Rage Mutagen class feature, change the first sentence to read as follows:
"At 2nd level, whenever a ragechemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen’s bonus to Strength increases by +2 and penalizes the alchemist’s Intelligence score."
—Sean K Reynolds, 02/21/12
The only way Ragechemist is in any way viable or useful is if the +6 bonus from Rage Mutagen adds to the effect of the normal mutagen. If it replaces, the entire archetype is completely pointless. The penalty is insanely, stupidly, suicidally harsh; there needs to be a big upside to make it even worth looking at.
I disagree. It doesn't really matter WHAT the benefit is, it doesn't change the fact that, as you say, the penalty is "insanely, stupidly, suicidally harsh."
At its very core, Comatose Chemist is rotten. The penalty is just so utterly massive, the archetype is going to be unbalanced no matter where you go from there. The solution isn't trying to throw more weight onto the other end of the see-saw. The solution is to make the penalty MUCH MUCH MUCH less insanely awful than it is.