2nd Level Spell at Level 2?


Advice


I wonder, is there any way to swing a 2nd level spell at level 2? Is there a class/feat/archetype combo that can manage it? Just curious. I'm looking to build a Rouge/Trickster that needs a 2nd level spell in order to qualify for the PrC, but I *need* (... really want!) my other 18 levels. That leaves me with only 2 levels to dip into SOMETHING to qualify for the prestige, but I can't find any way to finesse a 2nd level spell with only two levels.

Granted, I've only been perusing the Pathfinder material for a few days. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of the text can put me on the right path.

Thanks in advance! ;)


Nope. You'll need 3 levels of wizard.


Dave Leach wrote:

I wonder, is there any way to swing a 2nd level spell at level 2? Is there a class/feat/archetype combo that can manage it? Just curious. I'm looking to build a Rouge/Trickster that needs a 2nd level spell in order to qualify for the PrC, but I *need* (... really want!) my other 18 levels. That leaves me with only 2 levels to dip into SOMETHING to qualify for the prestige, but I can't find any way to finesse a 2nd level spell with only two levels.

Granted, I've only been perusing the Pathfinder material for a few days. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of the text can put me on the right path.

Thanks in advance! ;)

What are you doing with the other 18 levels? Maybe we can talk you into something else.


The Assasin prestige class gives 1d6 sneak attack at first level. You can get into Arcane Trickster one level earlier than usual by progressing: Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Assassin.


Blueluck wrote:
The [urlhttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/assassin]Assasin[/url] prestige class gives 1d6 sneak attack at first level. You can get into Arcane Trickster one level earlier than usual by progressing: Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Assassin.

But you need 5 ranks of stealth (i.e. min level 5) before you can take assassin.


Interzone wrote:
But you need 5 ranks of stealth (i.e. min level 5) before you can take assassin.

You're right. It's the Arcane Trickster that requires 4 ranks of everything - I remembered that incorrectly. Although, Assassin could still be useful because you could get in one extra level of spellcasting by going with [Wizard 4, Rogue 1, Assassin 1] instead of the more traditional [Wizard 3, Rogue 3].


There's a recent (last few days) thread on exactly this topic:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz4tse?Whats-the-least-painful-path-towards-Arcan e

Personally I think Arcane Trickster is a pretty hard PrC to qualify for, but opinions differ. Read and decide for yourself.

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

See if you can convince your DM to let you make a new rogue talent.

That's What I Call Magic: Requires Minor & Major Magic tricks and two levels of wizard. You can cast a second level arcane spell once per day as a spell like ability.

Let him know what you are planning to do though.


karkon wrote:

See if you can convince your DM to let you make a new rogue talent.

That's What I Call Magic: Requires Minor & Major Magic tricks and two levels of wizard. You can cast a second level arcane spell once per day as a spell like ability.

Let him know what you are planning to do though.

"As a Spell-Like Ability" wouldn't qualify him though. It needs to be casted as a spell.

Silver Crusade

Gruuuu wrote:
"As a Spell-Like Ability" wouldn't qualify him though. It needs to be casted as a spell.

Does not say that.

Quote:
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.

and

Quote:

Major Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A rogue must have the minor magic rogue talent before choosing this talent.

Minor Magic (Sp): A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the rogue's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the rogue's Intelligence modifier. The rogue must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent.

If he can cast then he qualifies. This is subject to DM approval anyway so it might not matter.

edit: Wanted to add this.

Quote:

Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled.

If a character class grants a spell-like ability that is not based on an actual spell, the ability's effective spell level is equal to the highest-level class spell the character can cast, and is cast at the class level the ability is granted.

Please note the use of "cast" throughout.


We've been over this before. A SLA is NOT a spell, and doesn't qualify as being able to cast a spell. You need 3 levels of wizard to cast both mage hand and a real 2nd level spell. There's no cheat for that.


If he's asking his DM to create a new feat allowing him to get an SLA tailored to his build for the purpose of qualifying for a PrC, does it really matter whether or not the consensus is that SLAs don't qualify?


karkon wrote:
Quote:


Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.
Please note the use of "cast" throughout.

Requirement is to cast a spell. While being able to cast Mage Hand as a SLA would fly, casting anything as a SLA is not the same as casting it as a spell.

relevant SKR FAQ
FAQ wrote:

Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?

No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.

This calls out Spell Trigger and Spell Completion, but,

FAQ wrote:
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell,

is clear enough.


alientude wrote:
If he's asking his DM to create a new feat allowing him to get an SLA tailored to his build for the purpose of qualifying for a PrC, does it really matter whether or not the consensus is that SLAs don't qualify?

Maybe not, but it does keep the rules marvins at the table from getting butthurt.

And also keeps the GM from regretting the decision when people start trying to Metamagic SLAs.


There was a way to do it in 3.5 (at first level even), but I don't think Pathfinder lets you. It opened the early door for a number of prestige classes.

Precocious apprentice from complete arcane for those wondering


There's a download from UndeFEATable that has a feat that lets you qualify with 1 or 2 levels of rogue. Run that by your GM. If he allows 3pp stuff, you could end up with 18 or 19 caster levels.

Silver Crusade

Gruuuu wrote:
is clear enough.

Bah, I say to your official FAQ. Mostly because I can never find the damn thing. Is there a link I am missing or something?

He is spending three rogue talents on this and two wizard levels. If there is a big rules lawyer in the group get him involved before you talk to the DM. That should prevent trouble.

But seriously where is the damn FAQ, I can't even google it up. And I am usually pretty good at it.


karkon wrote:

Bah, I say to your official FAQ. Mostly because I can never find the damn thing. Is there a link I am missing or something?

He is spending three rogue talents on this and two wizard levels. If there is a big rules lawyer in the group get him involved before you talk to the DM. That should prevent trouble.

But seriously where is the damn FAQ, I can't even google it up. And I am usually pretty good at it.

Oh it's easy. Just click on Roleplaying Game under Pathfinder in the small, gray Links section on the left. Then, in the paragraph text, find the link for the Core Rulebook. Then, scroll down a bunch until you find the blue tabs, the right-most one of which says FAQs and Rulings.

How could it be simpler?!

Sarcasm aside, the devs are keeping the FAQ hard to get to on purpose.
They don't want to draw attention to it until it has a lot more support.
This is a decision I disagree with, but it is fortunately not my decision.
I don't know if you have to find separate source books to see the FAQs in those.
Monkeys.


Gruuuu wrote:

How could it be simpler?!

Sarcasm aside, the devs are keeping the FAQ hard to get to on purpose.
They don't want to draw attention to it until it has a lot more support.
This is a decision I disagree with, but it is fortunately not my decision.
I don't know if you have to find separate source books to see the FAQs in those.
Monkeys.

It could be and is much simpler than that. From any page on Paizo.com, click on "Help/FAQ" in the third row of the header. Done.


So, what exactly did the OP want that required a full 20 levels?


Cheapy wrote:
So, what exactly did the OP want that required a full 20 levels?

To be a power mad munchkin?

...just sayin'.


Windquake wrote:

To be a power mad munchkin?

...just sayin'.

Can't be the case, he's playing a rogue.


Gruuuu wrote:
is clear enough.

It's really not.

We've gone over this before, but never come to an actual conclusion.

To me the RAW is perfectly clear.

The class prerequisite says: "ability to cast... at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher"

The rogue talent says: "A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

By RAW, the rogue gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell. Analyze it all you want; that's what the words say, and no FAQ or developer has contradicted it.


They get to cast it as a spell-like ability, not as a spell.

Read the second half of the sentence you quoted.


Cheapy wrote:
They get to cast it as a spell-like ability, not as a spell.

"The ability to cast a spell as a spell-like ability" is, by definition, "the ability to cast a spell". The words are right there, and "as a SLA" doesn't negate them; it just modifies them.


Anyways, that distinction is all moot, and is best for another thread.

The PRD on Spell like abilities wrote:


Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

So, they're not arcane "spells". Even if they're based on arcane spells.

And Arcane trickster requires the ability to cast arcane spells.

Specifically.

Spells requirement for Arcane trickster wrote:
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher.

Those little SLAs that Minor/Major magic give aren't arcane spells. At best, they are spell-like abilities based off of arcane spells, but they are not arcane spells since SLAs don't have a divine/arcane type.


AvalonXQ wrote:

It's really not.

We've gone over this before, but never come to an actual conclusion.

To me the RAW is perfectly clear.

The class prerequisite says: "ability to cast... at least one arcane spell of 2nd level or higher"

The rogue talent says: "A rogue with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability."

By RAW, the rogue gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell. Analyze it all you want; that's what the words say, and no FAQ or developer has contradicted it.

If your interpretation is correct, it would be the only instance where this Rogue Trick counted as casting a spell for ANYTHING AT ALL requiring the ability to cast a spell.

So, while it hasn't been called out specifically, I think precedent is set.


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So, to recap:


  • SLAs aren't arcane or divine. They can resemble a divine or arcane spell, but divine or arcane they are not.
  • SLAs are not spells, as clarified by the FAQ. (And is RAW anyways. See below.)
  • SLAs don't let you treat yourself as having the spell it resembles on your class list, as per the FAQ.
  • Arcane Trickster requires the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells, as well as mage hand.

You cannot use Minor / Major Magic to meet the prerequisites for Arcane Trickster.

Universal Monster Rules, SLAs wrote:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like spells (though they are not spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components).
Glossary of the CRB wrote:
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but the cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.

So, they're like spells, but not spells. One could say that they are...spell-like.

Silver Crusade

Let us agree the SLA are not spells and they do not qualify you for things like Arcane Trickster.

Having said that...

Is my solution too far out of bounds? Does it seriously unbalance anything? What are the problems with creating a talent like:

That's What I Call Magic: Requires Minor & Major Magic tricks and two levels of wizard. You can cast a second level arcane spell once per day as a spell like ability.

And then allowing that to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

If you were DM what problems would you see for this? Short of disallowing it how would you fix it?


karkon wrote:

Let us agree the SLA are not spells and they do not qualify you for things like Arcane Trickster.

Having said that...

Is my solution too far out of bounds? Does it seriously unbalance anything? What are the problems with creating a talent like:

That's What I Call Magic: Requires Minor & Major Magic tricks and two levels of wizard. You can cast a second level arcane spell once per day as a spell like ability.

And then allowing that to qualify for Arcane Trickster.

If you were DM what problems would you see for this? Short of disallowing it how would you fix it?

Actually, just realized. The character is STILL not going to qualify for Arcane Trickster by 5 with this.

Extra Rogue Talent requires the Rogue Talent Class Ability. Unless he has a way to get two feats to burn on Extra Rogue Talent when he hits Rogue 2, he's still not gonna get there.


Dave Leach, would this archetype help you fulfill your desires for your character?

Sandman.

Silver Crusade

He would need 8 levels of rogue to do it that way. With the 2 levels of wizard then he would be 10 before he could get to trickster. With extra rogue talent feats he could do it earlier.

I don't know what his goal is, so this solution might be unnecessary. He wants 18 levels of not wizard so he might not want to spend feats or levels on this.

Just throwing ideas out.


Wow! This blossomed into quite a little discussion. Thanks for the input, everyone.

I'm certainly no power gamer, though I do appreciate good synergy and DPR as much as the next guy. I love Rogues. I always play Rogues and shall continue to do so, regardless of their viability from a number crunching perspective. I've long since come to terms with their limitations.

I appreciate the feedback, but I've already decided to abandon the Arcane Trickster. I'm not a fan of magic, in general. I thought maybe I'd try something a little different (albiet still Roguish), but I've already soured on the idea. That, and qualifying for the PrC requires too costly a dip into a class I have no interest in.

As for building to 20, that's just an old habit. I always map my characters out to level cap. Hardly necessary, I realize, especially in a campaign that likely won't progress beyond level 12. The Rogue + Trickster combination takes far too long to pay dividends, made worse given the length and format of the campaign.

I continue to search for a class combination that will suit me. I'm about to start a new thread on the subject, actually ...

Thanks again!

Dark Archive

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if you can use 3.5

Precocious Apprentice

Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.

Prerequisites: Int 15 or Cha 15, arcane spellcaster level 1

Benefit: Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school that is not barred to you. You can cast that spell once per day. In effect, you have an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used to cast the chosen spell, and cannot be used for any other purpose. If you cannot cast 2nd-level spells yet, you must succeed on a caster level check (DC 8) to successfully cast the spell; if you fail, you miscast the spell to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances.

When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the previous benefit described above. Instead, you simply have an extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you may use to prepare (or spontaneously cast, if you are a spontaneous caster) 2nd-level or lower spells as you normally would.

You also gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.

Special: You can only take this feat as a 1st-level character.

its from complete arcane

feat is online here

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