The GM's policy is this: any arguments are between us, he wants no part of it. Which I can understand because of his gaming history. The store I play at has a long, painful, history of douchebaggery, and I can understand him not wanting to deal with it anymore.
the first player left for no reason that I can tell, he basically stopped showing up to the shop entirely, supposedly he is a truck driver, so he could be doing that, he also played Malifaux. The Barbarian left because he's going to Job Corps Tuesday and he's not sure when his first weekend off will be.
I wouldn't call it friendship, but I'm extremely picky on who I call a friend, more often than not most people are merely acquaintances to me. The summoner is a friend of mine, the grouchy guy in my good group is a friend, the store owner is a friend, and there are a few others, but I don't let anyone be considered "my friend" especially if I don't think they qualify. Yes, this is kind of standoffish, but I'd rather my friends be actual friends instead of the "friends" I see so often around me, people who act nice to each other, but wouldn't lift a finger unless someone was in actual mortal danger.
This doesn't stop me from being nice to them, or being generous, when the poor Barbarian player is hungry, I usually send him over to McDonalds with a few bucks to get him some food.... at least when I can. I can act friendly to people I don't consider actual friends, but I think that's part of just being courteous.
...okay. :)
You seem very logically oriented, and that is not a bad thing. I think what you may be running into is that some players are less of that mindset than you are. That is, they may be logical, but not /as/ focused in that direction.
Likewise, your interests and style will be different to them.
And it sounds like this conflict has been going on a while. That is, it isn't the first time it's flared up.
I don't think it will resolve anytime soon.
I realize that's not what you wanted to hear--I'm simply saying that some outlooks are just going to be different.
...okay. :)
You seem very logically oriented, and that is not a bad thing. I think what you may be running into is that some players are less of that mindset than you are. That is, they may be logical, but not /as/ focused in that direction.
Likewise, your interests and style will be different to them.
And it sounds like this conflict has been going on a while. That is, it isn't the first time it's flared up.
I don't think it will resolve anytime soon.
I realize that's not what you wanted to hear--I'm simply saying that some outlooks are just going to be different.
Yes, it's an old fight, been going on for months now, I intend to never play in another game with her, because it's just not worth it. However, I want a temporary solution for it at very least, something to get me through to the end of the campaign.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ultimately, someone in your group needs to show a little maturity and give up the weapon.
How is giving in to whiny children mature? It just shows them that with enough whining, she can have what she wants.
What would it take for her character to be somewhat mechanically effective with the weapon?
Probably a lot of character building.
So here's what I say you do. I do not really know this girl's personality through your posts, so you can tell me if this might work.
Mechanically, help her plan her character to be effective at wielding the sun blade. Maybe even try to convince her to take a level in a full BAB class, or at least help her tailor her spell and feat selection to combat buffs. Basically help her make her character effective at what she wants it to do before you fold.
Now on its own this might be disagreeable to her (I mean, partially yielding your character to someone else is not the ideal fun situation), but I think this could be seen as a roleplaying opportunity. That is, you are the self-proclaimed combat master in this party. You should realize that, if only the oracle were more combat effective, your party as a whole would likely be more effective. So, in-game, your character teaches her character how to fight, in order to wield the sun blade.
Honestly, this might be good for your party survival, regardless of solving the dispute. Combat healing is widely accepted to be an ineffective combat strategy, because almost any effective healer-class worth his salt should have better options during combat. Maybe she doesn't, but now is your chance to change that.
In character, you say you won't give the sword to her until she is up to your standards of combat effectiveness, through training. Out of game, represent that by helping her build her character to be effective.
Then give her the sword. If she wants it as bad as you say she does, she might just go for it. Hell, you might even convince your GM to let her respecialize her character somewhat, and then you help her with that too.
You have to realize that she might have actual combat in mind too. Not in the purely "I know this will be optimal" sense, but in realizing that being the combat healer leaves her with a lot of downtime that is probably better spent, and even the healing time is probably better spent. Or honestly, maybe it's just that being the combat healer is usually extremely boring. It's no thinking and no glory. Run away, press your spell buttons, get results. What I mean to say here is this: there are better reasons for wanting this than just the role playing aspect, and I would hazard a guess that she has other motives than what she states if she wants it so bad. So help her help you.
To me the Oracle wanting the Sun Blade is 1 step better than a priest of Nethys holding on to an arcane spellbook instead of the Wizard because of the logo on the cover.
Exactly. It's a munchkin tool. "Here, I should get this treasure, it ties into my character concept". I've actually seen an actual munchkin actually killing a campaign by "roleplaying" a greedy character.
Usually, if someone claims to be roleplaying and calling someone else a powergamer who only cares about numbers on a shield - while demanding something - chances are it's a munchkin who wants his way by playing the political game. Be first to insult the other so when he calls you by name, you can just play it down as a lash out against your "legitimate accusations".
@Cas Mat: What part of "I'm not giving her the sword." don't you get? This isn't a matter of concern for how well she can use it, this is a matter of reminding her that she is an agent of life, and I am an agent of death, she has no place in the front lines. If I give her the sword, she's going to use it once or twice a session, whereas I would be using it every round of combat in which I'm engaging the undead, or standing still next to someone/something I intend to kill.
Considering that we've been fighting golems (who hit us on 2s largely) and mummies casting spells (who hit us on at most 10s, if I go defensive) she will be busy keeping us standing. Which means that she shouldn't be swinging a sword at them, at all. Her job is boring to a degree, but the GM tries to make it exciting for her, by beating the crap out of us.
What would it take for her character to be somewhat mechanically effective with the weapon?
Probably a lot of character building.
So here's what I say you do. I do not really know this girl's personality through your posts, so you can tell me if this might work.
Mechanically, help her plan her character to be effective at wielding the sun blade. Maybe even try to convince her to take a level in a full BAB class, or at least help her tailor her spell and feat selection to combat buffs. Basically help her make her character effective at what she wants it to do before you fold.
Now on its own this might be disagreeable to her (I mean, partially yielding your character to someone else is not the ideal fun situation), but I think this could be seen as a roleplaying opportunity. That is, you are the self-proclaimed combat master in this party. You should realize that, if only the oracle were more combat effective, your party as a whole would likely be more effective. So, in-game, your character teaches her character how to fight, in order to wield the sun blade.
Honestly, this might be good for your party survival, regardless of solving the dispute. Combat healing is widely accepted to be an ineffective combat strategy, because almost any effective healer-class worth his salt should have better options during combat. Maybe she doesn't, but now is your chance to change that.
In character, you say you won't give the sword to her until she is up to your standards of combat effectiveness, through training. Out of game, represent that by helping her build her character to be effective.
Then give her the sword. If she wants it as bad as you say she does, she might just go for it. Hell, you might even convince your GM to let her respecialize her character somewhat, and then you help her with that too.
You have to realize that she might have actual combat in mind too. Not in the purely "I know this will be optimal" sense, but in realizing that being the combat healer leaves her with a...
+1
This is a great way of increasing party unity and helping to ease the bad blood between you and the Oracle. She gets the sunblade, you get a more effective party, and you come out of it looking like a better man for compromising on the situation. If she refuses your help then it puts things squarely on her as being selfish and not interesting in helping the party. These notions of being an agent of death vs. an agent of life are just silly anyway. An oracle of life is no more prone to preserving life than any other class with healing powers; she is just better at that aspect of the class.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
How is giving in to whiny children mature? It just shows them that with enough whining, she can have what she wants.
Ultimately, someone in your group needs to show a little maturity and give up the weapon.
How is coming to the internet instead of dealing with the guy in the seat next to you mature?
Whenever people bring these kind of petty debates to the net you hear half the arguments. Maybe the cleric should be the one who shows a little maturity. I no clue because really we're getting less than half the story.
If BS has been hogging all the treasure for the past six months is she still being whiney?
You can't solve problems with your neighbors by talking to people in China.
How is giving in to whiny children mature? It just shows them that with enough whining, she can have what she wants.
Ultimately, someone in your group needs to show a little maturity and give up the weapon.How is coming to the internet instead of dealing with the guy in the seat next to you mature?
Whenever people bring these kind of petty debates to the net you hear half the arguments. Maybe the cleric should be the one who shows a little maturity. I no clue because really we're getting less than half the story.
If BS has been hogging all the treasure for the past six months is she still being whiney?
You can't solve problems with your neighbors by talking to people in China.
I'm mature enough to admit I need help, asking the largest pool of knowledge, ideas, and personalities I know of is simply tapping the source of the best/most varied responses I can get. Also, what massive ego do you have, that you think this is the only source I've asked? I want as many opinions and as much advice on this matter, that I cannot resolve myself, as I can get.
She's an oracle, not a cleric, if she were actually a cleric this would be different, because she could actually cast combat spells, instead of the incredibly limited spells she has as an oracle.
For like the billionth time: I'm not hogging them, I'm taking what I will use more than anyone else, and it just happens that a lot of things that will go unused if I don't use them, have shown up in the game.
@Cas Mat: What part of "I'm not giving her the sword." don't you get? This isn't a matter of concern for how well she can use it, this is a matter of reminding her that she is an agent of life, and I am an agent of death, she has no place in the front lines. If I give her the sword, she's going to use it once or twice a session, whereas I would be using it every round of combat in which I'm engaging the undead, or standing still next to someone/something I intend to kill.
Considering that we've been fighting golems (who hit us on 2s largely) and mummies casting spells (who hit us on at most 10s, if I go defensive) she will be busy keeping us standing. Which means that she shouldn't be swinging a sword at them, at all. Her job is boring to a degree, but the GM tries to make it exciting for her, by beating the crap out of us.
You see, I thought you were worried, in-character and out, about giving her the sword reducing combat effectiveness. I'm saying that that does not have to be the case.
The way you replied makes me feel like you didn't even read my post.
Oracles are a 3/4 BAB class, same as ninja. They are not as tailored to combat as the ninja is, but it doesn't mean they can't be effective. As a life oracle she obviously won't be optimized, but her being effective in combat is probably better for your party than her being a healbot, even if it means you personally losing some effectiveness.
I'm betting the real problem in your party is that you are essentially relying on two people in combat, and two are expected to be marginally useful. There are ways to make an Oracle more relevant to combat in spells, feats, etc.
I guess I didn't understand your motives until you said this:
"This isn't a matter of concern for how well she can use it, this is a matter of reminding her that she is an agent of life, and I am an agent of death, she has no place in the front lines."
I have to wonder why you think that statement is any less empty than
"This isn't a matter of concern for how well I can use it. This is a matter of reminding him that he is a cold blooded assassin, and I am a follower of Sarenrae; he has no place holding that sacred weapon."
@CasMat: Just because I'm an agent of death doesn't mean I'm cold blooded, I'm a pretty nice person, kind of like Death from Discworld. I don't have to be mean, or cold, because I'm incredibly dangerous, as such I will be a pleasant person to everyone I meet until they cross the line I've drawn morally speaking. Then that person gets to see why I'm such a nice person: because I am very dangerous.
I was hired on to protect a caravan at the start of the campaign, I took that very seriously, and I have been a protector of those who cannot defend themselves ever since.
Heck, when the Angel asked us to take the Geass, I was the first to say "I accept, someone has to stop these guys.", despite the fact that we had a paladin and this oracle in the group, I didn't even know we were going to get the items until after everyone agreed to it.
My character is tailored to combat, fighting, hers is tailored to healing, she shouldn't be getting involved in fighting outside of healing, especially when it's so easy for the monsters to hurt me, the barbarian, and the summoner's eidolon. Giving her the weapon does not improve the group in the slightest, in fact it hurts us quite a bit, because then I'm moving back to a masterwork wakizashi, and that's not going to be nearly as useful against what we are fighting.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This thread has turned into a train wreck.
BlueStar obviously has no intention of giving up the weapon, compromising, or doing anything other than asserting how right he is. The Oracle, according to him, is a shrill harpy who'd rather the party suffer a TPK than her not getting her shiny. The DM is, presumably, sitting on his hands and watching the party go to hell. The players in general seem to have no concept of compromising OOC in order to have a harmonious game.
I could say more, but frankly it seems pointless. No-one's listening to each other here as it is, and everyone is arguing from different, irreconcilable assumptions. That game should end. This thread should too.
I could say more, but frankly it seems pointless. No-one's listening to each other here as it is, and everyone is arguing from different, irreconcilable assumptions. That game should end. This thread should too.
@CasMat: Just because I'm an agent of death doesn't mean I'm cold blooded, I'm a pretty nice person, kind of like Death from Discworld. I don't have to be mean, or cold, because I'm incredibly dangerous, as such I will be a pleasant person to everyone I meet until they cross the line I've drawn morally speaking. Then that person gets to see why I'm such a nice person: because I am very dangerous.
I was hired on to protect a caravan at the start of the campaign, I took that very seriously, and I have been a protector of those who cannot defend themselves ever since.
Heck, when the Angel asked us to take the Geass, I was the first to say "I accept, someone has to stop these guys.", despite the fact that we had a paladin and this oracle in the group, I didn't even know we were going to get the items until after everyone agreed to it.
My character is tailored to combat, fighting, hers is tailored to healing, she shouldn't be getting involved in fighting outside of healing, especially when it's so easy for the monsters to hurt me, the barbarian, and the summoner's eidolon. Giving her the weapon does not improve the group in the slightest, in fact it hurts us quite a bit, because then I'm moving back to a masterwork wakizashi, and that's not going to be nearly as useful against what we are fighting.
Fine, take out the word cold blooded. Hell, change it to "not a worshipper of sarenrae".
Then try to answer my question again, because you are missing the point.
My original post was not just "give her the sword". It was "make her useful when using the sword, then give her the sword". She does not have to be healing in combat to be useful, and it is probably better for your chances of survival if you try to make it so she has better options. If she's tailored to healing, help tailor her to something useful in combat, because it is probably better that way. I'm not sure what else to say to get it through to you. You seem to have a really staunch view about her party role and what it must do, and I'm trying to say that her character can be something better than that, and giving her the blade at some point could help accomplish that, and in turn help the party.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
I'm mature enough to admit I need help, asking the largest pool of knowledge, ideas, and personalities I know of is simply tapping the source of the best/most varied responses I can get.And it was a good idea. Sure, just asking the net and not seeking to solve this by yourself by talking with all parties involved would not really help you, but that doesn't mean you can't use the internet at all.
My question is, how does this help him solve the problem in his group?
My impression isn't that he wants to vent but that he is looking for some kind of resolution. Telling him "Hey you should have the sword!" *solves* nothing. He's going to go back to his group and say "The interwebs agree with me go chop wood oracle"... and nothing is resolved. Here, is the original plea:
I'm really sick of arguing with her. What should I do? Logically speaking I should hang on to the Sun Blade, it's a really really good weapon for me, but I'm sick of hearing her argue with me.
What should he DO?
This thread has turned into a train wreck.
BlueStar obviously has no intention of giving up the weapon, compromising, or doing anything other than asserting how right he is. The Oracle, according to him, is a shrill harpy who'd rather the party suffer a TPK than her not getting her shiny. The DM is, presumably, sitting on his hands and watching the party go to hell. The players in general seem to have no concept of compromising OOC in order to have a harmonious game.
I could say more, but frankly it seems pointless. No-one's listening to each other here as it is, and everyone is arguing from different, irreconcilable assumptions. That game should end. This thread should too.
I only reply so that people don't miss this one. I wish I had said it this well.
My hat is off to you sir.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Casmat:We will usually nearly die even with her healing, I don't care to try it without her healing. So, yes, she kind of needs to be healing in combat, if she doesn't want a TPK.
If Sarenrae wanted it in the hands of his follower, I would not be able to make use of it, I would have died by now, or something would have happened by now, but it hasn't. My character is an atheist, I have no god backing me up, if Sarenrae wanted his follower to have it, I have nothing that can get in his way, aside from my own will, and that is not nearly enough to stop a god when they really want something done. Sarenrae doesn't care who is wielding it, just that it is being wielded in a way he likes. Which it's not even a weapon he cares about, it's a bastard sword, not a scimitar.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My question is, how does this help him solve the problem in his group?I'm mature enough to admit I need help, asking the largest pool of knowledge, ideas, and personalities I know of is simply tapping the source of the best/most varied responses I can get.And it was a good idea. Sure, just asking the net and not seeking to solve this by yourself by talking with all parties involved would not really help you, but that doesn't mean you can't use the internet at all.
You are the one who took this off the rails, which means you are the one not helping me, KaeYoss has given me some good advice, you have not.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
When someone has gotten to the end of their wits when it comes to solving a problem, it would be dumb for them to not ask for help. I am human, I can't have all the answers, and as such I asked for help. Your ego decided that "I'm better than that, therefore I should treat this person like dirt." as though you are some kind of "nobility" (in the ancient sense) when true nobility comes from magnanimosity, the ability to see someone who needs help, and to genuinely help them when they swallow their pride to ask for it.
You literally think you are so much better than me, that I don't deserve a proper answer from you, and I think, in reality, that makes you a much worse person than myself.
You need to sit down with your group and figure out a way of resolving treasure disputes that everyone thinks is reasonable. Clearly arguing about who can make best use of the item isn't working.
The few times I've had problems with this in the past we:
None of these solutions guarantee you will wind up with the item but, unless you get buy in from the oracle's player on whatever solution there isn't going to be any resolution.
This is essentially what I suggested on P1 but you don't seem interested in finding a solution to the problem, only in finding ways to ensure you get your item.
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
This was my first post in the thread.
IMO sounds to me like both of you have a reasonable reason for having the weapon. Doesn't your group have some way of resolving treasure disputes beyond arguing?
We've used a system, taken turns getting first choice, dicing off, etc. etc...
I've never seen a problem like this solved by running to the Internet and complaining.
How is this taking things off the rails?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When someone has gotten to the end of their wits when it comes to solving a problem, it would be dumb for them to not ask for help. I am human, I can't have all the answers, and as such I asked for help. Your ego decided that "I'm better than that, therefore I should treat this person like dirt." as though you are some kind of "nobility" (in the ancient sense) when true nobility comes from magnanimosity, the ability to see someone who needs help, and to genuinely help them when they swallow their pride to ask for it.
You literally think you are so much better than me, that I don't deserve a proper answer from you, and I think, in reality, that makes you a much worse person than myself.
You need to sit down with your group and figure out a way of resolving treasure disputes that everyone thinks is reasonable. Clearly arguing about who can make best use of the item isn't working.
The few times I've had problems with this in the past we:
Diced off for items
Had a rotating list of who got first pick of treasure
Let the GM arbitrate
Player vote None of these solutions guarantee you will wind up with the item but, unless you get buy in from the oracle's player on whatever solution there isn't going to be any resolution.
This is essentially what I suggested on P1 but you don't seem interested in finding a solution to the problem, only in finding ways to ensure you get your item.
Like all the suggestions made here, I will take it into consideration, sure I didn't think it was truly amazing advice, which means it didn't get a response from me, but I will take it into consideration.
Your more recent posts have taken it off the rails rather harshly.
You could always put it to a coin flip. I mean, if you both agree - the loser sucks it up, and the winner gets the sword. Done.
Then again, I can't imagine you would agree to it... 50% is still a pretty good chance of retaining your blade, and think - she would finally shut up XD
I believe that, earlier in the thread, you mentioned that you want to see this campaign through to the end before you leave the group. So how much longer do you believe this campaign is going to be? I ask because, if the campaign is over in the next couple of sessions, I fail to see any reason why you should worry about giving the sword up at all. Just don't discuss it and when the oracle brings it up you can ignore her. However, if this game is going to be continuing for the next few months, then what is the point of playing if all that is going to happen are internecine party conflict? This seems like way more trouble than it is worth and, while I can appreciate your wanting to see this through to the end after the time and effort you have been investing into the campaign, it sounds like it has stopped being fun. It just seems like a lot of hoopla over what ultimately amounts to some modifiers on a dice roll and a name on a piece of paper.