Incoming! (Penny Arcade)


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Hmm, the problems Mike "Gabe" refers to aren't exclusive 4e issues. High level play and GM Burn out has been a problem with the game for a long time. That's why the AP model is so great. A satisfying end to a campaign means you can get enthusiastic about a new story all over again.

A satisfying end at a mere level 15-18! Pish posh!!

Grand Lodge

This is brilliant. I hope PFS embraces this 'Old Testament' branding and ups the difficulty a notch or 400 ;D

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

Chris Self wrote:

Via Jason's Google Plus:

Pillars of Salt
School: transmutation; Level: cleric/druid 9
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, M (handful of salt)
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Area: 10-ft-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half; Spell Resistance: yes
This spell calls down the fury of the heavens, transforming all heathens within its area into pillars of salt. All creatures in the area that do not share one alignment component with you take 10 points of damage per caster level. Those that are slain by this spell are transformed into pillars of salt and cannot be raised or resurrected, without first casting wish or miracle. Creatures that save against this effect, but are still slain are not transformed in this way.

As far as I'm concerned, this is an official addition to the spell lists :)

Does anyone see the nastiness hidden in there? I do, oh yes I do.

(Except that it's a [bleeping] transmutation spell. @#$@!#$.)


Nice to see that Gabe added his thoughts on Pathfinder, and even linked to the Beginner's Box.

I particularly appreciate his commentary at the end about 'his game' belonging not only to him but the players as well. The statement that the Pf/BB material would be useful and inspiring even if used in 4E is insightful too. Hopefully such commentary will preempt any edition hate from long-time followers.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So can I consider this RAI? :D


TO SAAAAAND!

Dark Archive

Gorbacz wrote:
By the way, I sure do hope Paizo has enough bandwidth to handle all those PA readers who will flock to check out "the new thing". :)

I'll bet they all say "oh, shinny!"


Next Comic with Pathfinder posted:

http://penny-arcade.com/comic


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I wonder who those "Pathfinder veterans" were whose opinions Tycho read. I hope for people like Mikaze and Ice Titan, but I fear it were rather guys like Cartigan and Cirno. ^^

Sovereign Court

They are adults, they review/critique games for a living (sort of), they'll figure it out.

Dark Archive

MikeRansom wrote:

Next Comic with Pathfinder posted:

link

SAAAND!

Dark Archive

magnuskn wrote:
I wonder who those "Pathfinder veterans" were whose opinions Tycho read. I hope for people like Mikaze and Ice Titan, but I fear it were rather guys like Cartigan and Cirno. ^^

LOL !!! Hey I LOVE posts by Mikaze and Ice Titan, but Cartigan and Cirno have thier cultists, er ... followers too.

That's a funny thought though magnuskn, and we are one big loving disfunctional gamer family.

Now pass the dire turkey leg.


I hope Gabe doesn't start out at high level. If 4E becomes problematic past level 12, the same will be true of Pathfinder. You get some really whacky stuff in this game as you level up that it takes an experienced DM with a strong understanding of the rules to deal with. It will help that his players won't be very experienced, but might not completely negate how powerful high level Pathfinder characters are.

The one nice thing about Pathfinder over a 4E type of game is that characters do have definite weaknesses. None of this everyone saves 55% of the time or hitting defenses like AC for spells. You can target weaknesses and create very strong assaults on players as a DM that makes them feel the wrath of of the heavens as the comic shows.

You can send a hill giant army riding mastodons that aren't 1 hp minions and have one hell of a knockdown, drag out fight against them. When the party achieves victory, they really feel like the did something special versus were lucky enough to roll high enough to get past the reflex defense to kill the 1 hp minions and their 1 hp mounts.

Combat is a lot more dynamic and epic in Pathfinder. Looks more like landing at Normandy Beach than fighting in an anime cartoon. Pathfinder combat is blood and guts and explosions and massive amounts of violence with gore covered barbarians and fighters and flying artillery assault and manipulation wizards with clerics blowing off powerful heals than it is shiny people using at will and encounter powers and the like. I think Gabe will like that aspect of Pathfinder combat. He just has to get familiar enough with the system and his players capabilities to know how far to push it.

Dark Archive

Maddigan wrote:
I hope Gabe doesn't start out at high level. If 4E becomes problematic past level 12, the same will be true of Pathfinder.

A small quibble, but Gabe encountered difficulties with 4e after level 21, not level 12. And I tend to agree with the general idea that at about level 13 Pathfinder too starts to show some... uneasiness in gameplay (just as its 3.X ancestors).

Which is to say that the latter third of each game (4e is aimed to top at level 30, Pathfinder at level 20) is the one where the system(s) break down.
In both situations, even though with different results, for the same reasons: too many options piling up and grinding down the rules. I sense a pattern, but maybe it's just my paranoia.


Maddigan wrote:


Combat is a lot more dynamic and epic in Pathfinder. Looks more like landing at Normandy Beach than fighting in an anime cartoon. Pathfinder combat is blood and guts and explosions and massive amounts of violence with gore covered barbarians and fighters and flying artillery assault and manipulation wizards with clerics blowing off powerful heals than it is shiny people using at will and encounter powers and the like. I think Gabe will like that aspect of Pathfinder combat. He just has to get familiar enough with the system and his players capabilities to know how far to push it.

I will just comment that you know nothing about anime if you think that they don't have blood and gore. You might be thinking of american cartoons. Anime has an entire genre for mature viewers.

Shadow Lodge

There is no blood in anime. None. None at all.


TOZ wrote:
There is no blood in anime. None. None at all.

A high level Fighter showing how it's done :)

Shadow Lodge

And that's the tame example!


I don't want to speak for anyone, but I believe Maddigan's comment was not about the content of blood, but the difference in focus when it comes to scenes of conflict . . . i.e. some opponents in anime might get taken out in droves within a few seconds while the hero heads for the big bad guy, in cut scenes that show the minions flying through the air, whereas most of us picture the landing at Normandy as a slow, deliberate slog towards the objective, with people being shot and screaming in pain and falling down in slow motion.

I think the comment was about focus and pacing rather than gore.


Maddigan wrote:

I hope Gabe doesn't start out at high level. If 4E becomes problematic past level 12, the same will be true of Pathfinder. You get some really whacky stuff in this game as you level up that it takes an experienced DM with a strong understanding of the rules to deal with. It will help that his players won't be very experienced, but might not completely negate how powerful high level Pathfinder characters are.

Some of the more recent posts on the site have indicated that Gabe has been discussing things with other gamers and has found that high level, across the board, can be problematic.


KnightErrantJR wrote:

I don't want to speak for anyone, but I believe Maddigan's comment was not about the content of blood, but the difference in focus when it comes to scenes of conflict . . . i.e. some opponents in anime might get taken out in droves within a few seconds while the hero heads for the big bad guy, in cut scenes that show the minions flying through the air, whereas most of us picture the landing at Normandy as a slow, deliberate slog towards the objective, with people being shot and screaming in pain and falling down in slow motion.

I think the comment was about focus and pacing rather than gore.

Maddigan wrote:
Combat is a lot more dynamic and epic in Pathfinder. Looks more like landing at Normandy Beach than fighting in an anime cartoon. Pathfinder combat is blood and guts and explosions and massive amounts of violence with gore covered barbarians and fighters and flying artillery assault and manipulation wizards with clerics blowing off powerful heals than it is shiny people using at will and encounter powers and the like. I think Gabe will like that aspect of Pathfinder combat. He just has to get familiar enough with the system and his players capabilities to know how far to push it.

I'm sorry you were saying?

And you can have it both ways, I find that in higer levels intercalating great battles against powerfull opponents with wading through dozens of enemies several levels below you. The first is grueling and epic and gives you a good sense of victory and conquering a difficult foe. The second lets you kill an enemie or more a round, reminding you that you are now one of the great powers at work, it's still resource consuming but feels easier, feels like your character has grown and the enemies that were troubling before now need small armies to worry you.


I've watched tons of anime. I know what the gore is like in anime. Seen some pretty nasty stuff. I do like anime.

The comment was my opinion that anime feels fake with the main characters almost always having the necessary power to win. Whereas Pathfinder combat feels more natural and like something I could picture really happening. The interplay in combat and the tactics are more complex than when I played 4E and complex combat consisted of knocking someone around like a hockey puck or firing off my encounter power.

Whereas Pathfinder combat feels more like a group of soldiers blowing all their ammunition, every artillery shell, and then going toe to toe with bayonets because they have nothing else left. The use of resources in Pathfinder is more to my liking and I can better control their use to get the feel I want in battle.

Just my opinion though.


Maddigan wrote:

I've watched tons of anime. I know what the gore is like in anime. Seen some pretty nasty stuff. I do like anime.

The comment was my opinion that anime feels fake with the main characters almost always having the necessary power to win. Whereas Pathfinder combat feels more natural and like something I could picture really happening. The interplay in combat and the tactics are more complex than when I played 4E and complex combat consisted of knocking someone around like a hockey puck or firing off my encounter power.

Whereas Pathfinder combat feels more like a group of soldiers blowing all their ammunition, every artillery shell, and then going toe to toe with bayonets because they have nothing else left. The use of resources in Pathfinder is more to my liking and I can better control their use to get the feel I want in battle.

Just my opinion though.

Oh, when you put it that way I completely agree with you.

...
A Maddigan opinion I can agree with? I'm astonished and confused. I'm confustonished. It feels weird.


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Maddigan wrote:
The one nice thing about Pathfinder over a 4E type of game is that characters do have definite weaknesses.

That's no different from 4e. All characters in 4e have definite weaknesses.

Quote:
None of this everyone saves 55% of the time

Saving throws are a duration mechanic in 4e. The fact that you're criticizing them in this way demonstrates to me that you aren't familiar enough with how the system works to criticize it.

Non-AC defenses take the place of saving throws from 3.5.

Quote:
or hitting defenses like AC for spells.

Spells don't target AC. Spells target Reflex, Will, or Fortitude. There might be exceptions, of course (as I'm sure there are in Pathfinder), but I didn't find any. A search of the Compendium for Wizard attack powers that target AC turned up nothing.

Quote:
You can send a hill giant army riding mastodons that aren't 1 hp minions and have one hell of a knockdown, drag out fight against them.

You can do this in 4e, too. In fact, there are ten different non-minion hill giants for you to throw at your PCs in 4e. There is only one hill giant minion.

There are no mastodon minions in 4e, so you definitely made that part up. There are plenty of potential mounts for hill giants that aren't minions. Off the top of my head, a mammoth would work.

Quote:
When the party achieves victory, they really feel like the did something special versus were lucky enough to roll high enough to get past the reflex defense to kill the 1 hp minions and their 1 hp mounts.

If that's what you're interested in accomplishing, 4e lets you accomplish that easily. It's very straightforward to design an exciting encounter in 4e.

Quote:
Combat is a lot more dynamic and epic in Pathfinder.

4e was designed with dynamic, epic combats in mind, and facilitates them far better than 3.5/Pathfinder does. Minions, elites, solos, terrain powers, traps, hazards, and skill challenges can be combined to create incredible scenarios.

You've said a lot of things, here, and a huge amount of what you've said has been either demonstrably false or deliberately misleading. It's clear that you've got it in for 4e, though it's not clear why, since the reasons that you've outlined here don't actually apply to the game to begin with - you made most of them up. You're not interested in being accurate. You're interested in trashing a game you don't play to make yourself feel better about the one you do.

If you're going to take the time to criticize something, make sure you have an adequate understanding of it first.


Scott Betts wrote:
and facilitates them far better than 3.5/Pathfinder does.

Incorrect. (I.e. subjective)

Paizo Employee Senior Software Developer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Can we not have a 4e-vs.-Pathfinder discussion here?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Gary Teter wrote:
Can we not have a 4e-vs.-Pathfinder discussion here?

No. :P

More seriously...

Spoiler:
I observed a 4e game saturday, termenology was weird, but it played similar enough. One player though whenever he used a power took out a card, declared what it was then layed it down. Seriously, it was like watching a kid from Yu-GI-Oh come to life. "It looks like a love child of 3.5 and Magic" was my comment.

Of course so many of the jokes were similar. "I attack her!" "It's a him." "It's an elf, how can you tell the difference?" "Yeah they're like Dragonborn." "No, Female Dragonborn have breasts."

Edit: Forgot to add that the important thing was everyone was having fun. Glad I wasn't playing though, I wanted to throttle Yugi and I was trying to ignore him.


Gary Teter wrote:
Can we not have a 4e-vs.-Pathfinder discussion here?

You want to avoid having a 4e-vs.-Pathfinder discussion in a thread about a prominent individual weighing the benefits of switching to Pathfinder or staying with 4e?

Shadow Lodge

Actually Scott, it's about the influx of traffic from PA the site may be getting after Pathfinder was featured. And as usual, people started arguing about 4E and PF.

Fozbek wrote:

Penny Arcade just posted a strip featuring Pathfinder and a commentary that criticizes 4th edition (which they've been pretty up on overall in the past).

Expect some additional traffic as PA-ers start investigating this "new game".

NOTE: This isn't an edition war post and I'd appreciate if people wouldn't turn it into an edition war thread.


Fair enough.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What about the pizza?

Dark Archive

Gary Teter wrote:
We can not have any more 4e-vs.-Pathfinder discussions in our lifetime.

Fixed that for you Gary.

Shadow Lodge

I'm currently, you know...between "realms"...

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