Did the summoner skew the magic market?


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This might have been addressed before; I'm just not sure where to start looking for the topic. Seeing as how item creation cost and final sale price is dependant largely on caster & spell level and that the summoner has many iconic sorcerer/wizard spells on its spell list at lower levels than any other class, it would appear that summoners could produce many iconic items more cheaply than the traditional crafters.

Consequently, it would appear that the summoner is suddenly the best/fastest/cheapest item crafter around. Since an item's sale price is normally equivalent to the lowest creation cost x2, it would appear that the a big part of the magic item market would be skewed toward overall lower prices. Does anyone see this as a problem?


Ambrus wrote:

This might have been addressed before; I'm just not sure where to start looking for the topic. Seeing as how item creation cost and final sale price is dependant largely on caster & spell level and that the summoner has many iconic sorcerer/wizard spells on its spell list at lower levels than any other class, it would appear that summoners could produce many iconic items more cheaply than the traditional crafters.

Consequently, it would appear that the summoner is suddenly the best/fastest/cheapest item crafter around. Since an item's sale price is normally equivalent to the lowest creation cost x2, it would appear that the a big part of the magic item market would be skewed toward overall lower prices. Does anyone see this as a problem?

This has been brought up many times, but items are always assumed to be made by cleric or wizard.

If you want to search out for a summoner who crafts, go ahead. But as it is, items are always assumed to be made by wizards or clerics.

Liberty's Edge

If there's a summoner on every street corner, who happens to have all the right feats, and the right spells known, and happens to have nothing better to do, then yes.

Fortunately, the random factors do not align that often. All items are considered to be crafted by a class with access to 1 - 9 spells (and usually not spontaneous casters) unless for some reason they couldn't craft it. (Ie. a wand of summon eidolon)

Ninja'd by literally 1 second. . . (Now it says 2 seconds. . .I lost a second somewhere. . .)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ambrus wrote:

This might have been addressed before; I'm just not sure where to start looking for the topic. Seeing as how item creation cost and final sale price is dependant largely on caster & spell level and that the summoner has many iconic sorcerer/wizard spells on its spell list at lower levels than any other class, it would appear that summoners could produce many iconic items more cheaply than the traditional crafters.

Yes, a summoner may have certain spells at lower spell levels, but NPC summoners aren't assumed to be taking item crafting feats given the limited spells that they know. (which is a pre-req that you can not skip when making scrolls or wands)

Also keep in mind that the market for spell scrolls is rather limited so that's another disincentive.


yes those potions might be quite rare, but the alchemists eternal potion can be of greater invisibility, just need 1 potion.
Aside from this I don't know of a big abuse issue.


Cheapy wrote:
This has been brought up many times

Sorry for bringing it back up then.

Cheapy wrote:
but items are always assumed to be made by cleric or wizard.

Where is that written? Looking at the SRD, all I find is the following:

SRD wrote:
An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.


Ambrus wrote:
Does anyone see this as a problem?

I think it's dumb and I'm opposed on principle to getting spells early, but I don't think it's really a big problem.


Oh, I guess that's just Scrolls that assumes wizard / cleric. Whoops.

Shows what I get for not re-reading the rules before posting.

Anyways, it's the GM's choice whether summoners are the predominant crafters in his world.

Summoners are rare in golarion, IIRC, so they definitely won't be in that world.


Cheapy wrote:
Anyways, it's the GM's choice whether summoners are the predominant crafters in his world. Summoners are rare in golarion, IIRC, so they definitely won't be in that world.

Are they? Have any demographics been proposed for the various classes? I honestly don't know.

Regardless of who's actually crafting the stuff though, the issue remains that everyone is supposed to be charging the same low price as a summoner would were he the one crafting. That's what I mean about skewing the market.


Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Anyways, it's the GM's choice whether summoners are the predominant crafters in his world. Summoners are rare in golarion, IIRC, so they definitely won't be in that world.

Are they? Have any demographics been proposed for the various classes? I honestly don't know.

Regardless of who's actually crafting the stuff though, the issue remains that everyone is supposed to be charging the same low price as a summoner would were he the one crafting. That's what I mean about skewing the market.

Yep. Summoners aren't really in Golarion. Doesn't mean players can't be one, just you won't find (m)any NPC summoners.

Do note that this same issue exists with Bards and Paladins. Why would anyone pay the normal price for a wand of lesser restoration, when you could get a paladin to make one for 750 gp?

The issue has existed since the CRB. Didn't cause great upheavals in the market then.


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Cheapy wrote:
Do note that this same issue exists with Bards and Paladins. Why would anyone pay the normal price for a wand of lesser restoration, when you could get a paladin to make one for 750 gp?

As far as I can tell, 750 gp is the normal price for a wand of lesser restoration for this very reason. It's what my character paid for his.


Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Do note that this same issue exists with Bards and Paladins. Why would anyone pay the normal price for a wand of lesser restoration, when you could get a paladin to make one for 750 gp?
As far as I can tell, 750 gp is the normal price for a wand of lesser restoration for this very reason. It's what my character paid for his.

Your GM must have that mythical group of Wand crafting paladins in his game then. Their motto is: "Screw smiting evil, let's craft some sticks" :D

Finally, remember that the assumed economy in the generic PF world (not Golarion, but you know...the baseline) is not capitalism. Applying modern ideas to it doesn't really work out.


Cheapy wrote:
Your GM must have that mythical group of Wand crafting paladins in his game then. Their motto is: "Screw smiting evil, let's craft some sticks"

No need to get snarky. We're just following the RAW. Insisting that the most common crafting classes set the default price for magic items in your world is fine; but it is a house rule.


Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Your GM must have that mythical group of Wand crafting paladins in his game then. Their motto is: "Screw smiting evil, let's craft some sticks"
No need to get snarky. We're just following the RAW. Insisting that the most common crafting classes set the default price for magic items in your world is fine; but it is a house rule.

I'm not being snarky. RAW says that a paladin crafted a wand of lesser restoration costs 750 gp. I'm saying that a paladin with Craft Wand is going to be a rarity.

Nevermind the huge demand that such a wondrously cheap item would have.

I am curious as to where the rule is that states that all items are at the cheapest prices possible.

Alternatively, why would the paladin / summoner sell the item at a price cheaper than what a cleric / wizard would sell it at?

Do they just go "Oh well hrm, I can make this item cheaper than almost everyone else. I'll sell it cheaper, rather than make more of a profit by selling it at the normal price."? Just because capitalism doesn't necessarily apply, doesn't mean common sense doesn't.

Well, on second thought, I guess the paladin might feel altruistic, and sell at a lower price. Or even At Price. But I get the impression you just bought it from the store.

No clue about why the summoner would do such a thing.


Cheapy wrote:
I am curious as to where the rule is that states that all items are at the cheapest prices possible.

I quoted it above. It's from the section on creating magic items.

Cheapy wrote:
Do they just go "Oh well hrm, I can make this item cheaper than almost everyone else. I'll sell it cheaper, rather than make more of a profit by selling it at the normal price."?

China seems to operate its manufacturing/export sector under that strategy. It seems to work for them. People will always seek to buy from the cheapest producer if the quality is comparable; forcing everyone else to match their price or fail.


Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I am curious as to where the rule is that states that all items are at the cheapest prices possible.

I quoted it above. It's from the section on creating magic items.

Bwhaaa?! Whelp, my apologies then. Never saw that line before. Should've read the entire thread after my post.

And yet the Gamemastery Guide explicitly lists them as 4,500 gp on pg 135.

How strange, I guess the core baseline does assume that there are orders of paladins solely devoted to selling wands, if 750 gp is the real market cost.


Cheapy wrote:
How strange, I guess the core baseline does assume that there are orders of paladins solely devoted to selling wands, if 750 gp is the real market cost.

I don't think that's the implication. Rather it's that there are at least a few paladins out there able to craft wands and, of the few people interested in acquiring such items, all will seek out the paladins first if it'll save them some gold. Consequently, any other craftsmen looking to sell such items have to match the lower price or they get none of the business.

Cheapy wrote:
And yet the Gamemastery Guide explicitly lists them as 4,500 gp on pg 135.

Which is a part of my concern. Introducing new classes such as the summoner (I know, the paladin isn't exactly new) with the same spells at lower slots would seem to retroactively reduce the sale price of many items.


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Cheapy wrote:
How strange, I guess the core baseline does assume that there are orders of paladins solely devoted to selling wands, if 750 gp is the real market cost.

The Paladins (Summoners, Bards) don't necessarily need the item creation feats themselves, they just need to cooperate with a Wizard (or whoever) who does have the feats by casting the appropriate spell each day during the item creation process.

Thus, it is not the Paladin making the item, the other guy is. However, since the Paladin can cast the spell at a lower spell level, the finished product is easier to make and is thus cheaper. Any sane crafter would seek out a Paladin when crafting something like a wand of lesser restoration, and IMO most Paladin orders would likely be happy to oblige if they weren't otherwise doing something else.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
How strange, I guess the core baseline does assume that there are orders of paladins solely devoted to selling wands, if 750 gp is the real market cost.

I don't think that's the implication. Rather it's that there are at least a few paladins out there able to craft wands and, of the few people interested in acquiring such items, all will seek out the paladins first if it'll save them some gold. Consequently, any other craftsmen looking to sell such items have to match the lower price or they get none of the business.

Cheapy wrote:
And yet the Gamemastery Guide explicitly lists them as 4,500 gp on pg 135.
Which is a part of my concern. Introducing new classes such as the summoner (I know, the paladin isn't exactly new) with the same spells at lower slots would seem to retroactively reduce the sale price of many items.

Unless the rule is talking about a higher level cleric creating an item. So that a 15th level cleric is creating a Wand of Lesser Restoration it doesn't sell for 15 x 2 x 750 = 22,500 gp.


There is a bit of an issue with the logic that the quoted line makes paladin crafters RAW

SRD wrote:
An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not spell level, CASTER level. All this means is that a 1st level spell crafted by a wizard is crafted by a 1st level wizard. A 2nd level spell crafted by a sorceror is crafted by a 4th level sorceror. A 3rd level spell crafted by a bard is crafted by a 7th level bard. That is ALL that line means. The lowest possible caster level for whatever class made the item is the one used for it's price. (It also means that if SELLING items players dont get to charge extra for being a higher level then the minimum required level for the spell).

Which classes crafted available scrolls wands and potions is ENTIRELY up to the dm like all other issues related to treasure. That is why all of the various costs are presented. There are scrolls\wands\potions made by paladins if and only if the dm decides there are, period. It is the dms choice just like the availability of all other magic items.


Ambrus wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
How strange, I guess the core baseline does assume that there are orders of paladins solely devoted to selling wands, if 750 gp is the real market cost.
I don't think that's the implication. Rather it's that there are at least a few paladins out there able to craft wands and, of the few people interested in acquiring such items, all will seek out the paladins first if it'll save them some gold. Consequently, any other craftsmen looking to sell such items have to match the lower price or they get none of the business.

I think wands of lesser restoration would be in high demand. They're just so useful. And clerics, by far and large the most logically abundant creators of such wands, make them for 2,250 gp, as opposed to the 375 gp that Paladins make them for.

For the game to assume that the class that will logically be making the most of the item will take a hit of 1,500 gp just because there are a few paladins, probably even just a handful, out there that will make them for cheaper...

Makes no sense.

The rule you quote was clearly meant to adjudicate wizard / sorcerer differences. There is no way that the designers assumed that paladins and other full BAB martial characters will be the predominant makers of magical items. It is too illogical, and breaks verisimilitude far too much to be a part of the core assumption of the game.

The market price should not represent the lowest possible price to make. It represents the average cost of an item in a wide variety of markets. To figure out the markets, you need to figure out who will be creating the magical item most often. Full BAB martial characters, or full spellcasting characters?

The GMG's magic item tables supports this for the specific example of the Wand of Lesser Restoration, and since it was printed after the CRB, I take that to be the intended price.

I hope in the next iteration of PF, there is an explicit hierarchy, based on the specific tiers of spellcasting, from highest (9th level spells) to lowest (4th level spells), and the classes associated with those tiers.

While perhaps RAW if you only consider the CRB (a not-unsafe assumption, granted), there is no way it can be RAI.

If someone would like to argue that it is in fact RAI in a manner which is logical and does not break verisimilitude, I would love to see it.


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Yes A summoner creates these items cheaper... but summoners are rare, and a smart summoner would sell for the same value as anyone else so he can make even more profit off each item and not have to worry about the Wizards Crafting Guild hunting him down for cutting into their profits.

Silver Crusade

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Cheapy wrote:


I think wands of lesser restoration would be in high demand. They're just so useful. And clerics, by far and large the most logically abundant creators of such wands, make them for 2,250 gp, as opposed to the 375 gp that Paladins make them for.

For the game to assume that the class that will logically be making the most of the item will take a hit of 1,500 gp just because there are a few paladins, probably even just a handful, out there that will make them for cheaper...

Makes no sense.

It is simple economics my good man. The paladin makes the wands for 375gp and then sells them for the 2250gp price people normally expect. He pockets a nice profit and if he is in a pinch he can sell it for a little less but not less than half of 2250 gp.

Solves the problem nicely. The few paladins who do go into crafting probably do it to support the cause with magic items or gold. This accomplishes both.

Other classes who can make an item for less will also sell it at the higher prevailing price and pocket the difference. Since they make so much more they can actually make fewer items and make more gold doing it. They can live nicely and work less.


karkon wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I think wands of lesser restoration would be in high demand. They're just so useful. And clerics, by far and large the most logically abundant creators of such wands, make them for 2,250 gp, as opposed to the 375 gp that Paladins make them for.

For the game to assume that the class that will logically be making the most of the item will take a hit of 1,500 gp just because there are a few paladins, probably even just a handful, out there that will make them for cheaper...

Makes no sense.

It is simple economics my good man. The paladin makes the wands for 375gp and then sells them for the 2250gp price people normally expect. He pockets a nice profit and if he is in a pinch he can sell it for a little less but not less than half of 2250 gp.

Solves the problem nicely. The few paladins who do go into crafting probably do it to support the cause with magic items or gold. This accomplishes both.

Other classes who can make an item for less will also sell it at the higher prevailing price and pocket the difference. Since they make so much more they can actually make fewer items and make more gold doing it. They can live nicely and work less.

Precisely. They wouldn't sell it at what they can make it for (750 gp). They'd sell it for what it'd go for in the market (4,500 gp).

A cleric can make the wand for 2,250 gp. They sell it for 4,500 gp.

The vast majority of such wands will be made by clerics. The vast majority of classes that get the spell cast it at 2nd level, not first. By vast majority I mean "everyone but the paladin."

And this isn't like China's strategy at all. It's more like Andorra using China's strategy to outsell the USA. Cute, and what a deal if you can find it, but it should not set the market price.

Silver Crusade

karkon wrote:


It is simple economics my good man. The paladin makes the wands for 375gp and then sells them for the 2250gp price people normally expect. He pockets a nice profit and if he is in a pinch he can sell it for a little less but not less than half of 2250 gp.

Solves the problem nicely. The few paladins who do go into crafting probably do it to support the cause with magic items or gold. This accomplishes both.

Other classes who can make an item for less will also sell it at the higher prevailing price and pocket the difference. Since they make so much more they can actually make fewer items and make more gold doing it. They can live nicely and work less.

Cheapy wrote:


Precisely. They wouldn't sell it at what they can make it for (750 gp). They'd sell it for what it'd go for in the market (4,500 gp).

A cleric can make the wand for 2,250 gp. They sell it for 4,500 gp.

The vast majority of such wands will be made by clerics. The vast majority of classes that get the spell cast it at 2nd level, not first. By vast majority I mean "everyone but the paladin."

And this isn't like China's strategy at all. It's more like Andorra using China's strategy to outsell the USA. Cute, and what a deal if you can find it, but it should not set the market price.

Too busy typing to check prices. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

I will confess that I've never understood the mentality that paladin wands of lesser restoration are rare, but wands of bless weapon are just fine. Either paladins make enough wands that they are easily available or they don't.

This is more a symptom of the problem that wand prices are caster level dependent even if the spell involved doesn't change with caster level.

If I could change how the core rules work, I would add a single line to each spell delineating a base magic item cost to remove a lot of the confusion/loopholes.


ryric wrote:
I will confess that I've never understood the mentality that paladin wands of lesser restoration are rare, but wands of bless weapon are just fine. Either paladins make enough wands that they are easily available or they don't.

I have never seen anyone but you (just now) mention wands of bless weapon. Do people actually advocate them?

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Cheapy wrote:
I have never seen anyone but you (just now) mention wands of bless weapon. Do people actually advocate them?

It was just meant as an example of a wand of a paladin-only spell. I've seen people argue that those are just fine, but paladin wands of lesser restoration are no good. Not in this thread, but in PFS discussions. In fact, in PFS, any paladin-only spell is peachy keen for purchase but you can't buy paladin versions of spells that are shared with other casters' lists.


Cheapy wrote:


I have never seen anyone but you (just now) mention wands of bless weapon. Do people actually advocate them?

Strangely enough, one of my players just asked if he could buy a wand of bless weapon. (The party is about to head out for the Abyss.)

I said no. Paladins are rare-ish IMC, and in the unlikely event that one invested in "create wand", he'd be doing it for his brothers and sisters, not for sale on the open market.

But under the RAW, arguably you could buy one.

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:


I have never seen anyone but you (just now) mention wands of bless weapon. Do people actually advocate them?

Strangely enough, one of my players just asked if he could buy a wand of bless weapon. (The party is about to head out for the Abyss.)

I said no. Paladins are rare-ish IMC, and in the unlikely event that one invested in "create wand", he'd be doing it for his brothers and sisters, not for sale on the open market.

But under the RAW, arguably you could buy one.

Doug M.

Could see about a Glory cleric making one? That's...about a million times more likely.

Hell, a Glory cleric might ask to come with them to the abyss.


Cheapy wrote:

This has been brought up many times, but items are always assumed to be made by cleric or wizard.

If you want to search out for a summoner who crafts, go ahead. But as it is, items are always assumed to be made by wizards or clerics.

Is this stated anywhere in the rules, or is this a general assumption? As far as I know, Summoners are not rarer than wizards by RaW.

Without the Advanced Player Guide, wizards are assumed to be the main magic craftsman because they can give their client the best deal by RaW. Summoners are not described as being less money-oriented than wizards, and in no worst position than clerics (who also have to purchase Scribe Scrolls as a feat).

'findel


Laurefindel wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

This has been brought up many times, but items are always assumed to be made by cleric or wizard.

If you want to search out for a summoner who crafts, go ahead. But as it is, items are always assumed to be made by wizards or clerics.

Is this stated anywhere in the rules, or is this a general assumption? As far as I know, Summoners are not rarer than wizards by RaW.

Without the Advanced Player Guide, wizards are assumed to be the main magic craftsman because they can give their client the best deal by RaW. Summoners are not described as being less money-oriented than wizards, and in no worst position than clerics (who also have to purchase Scribe Scrolls as a feat).

'findel

It was confusion on my part over the text about how scrolls assume Cleric / Wizard.


This has always been an issue since the core book was released. Bards making Potions of Heroism as a 2nd level spell vs Wizards as a 3rd level spell. The summoner just has different spells adding to this non issue.


Kolokotroni wrote:

There is a bit of an issue with the logic that the quoted line makes paladin crafters RAW

SRD wrote:
An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not spell level, CASTER level. All this means is that a 1st level spell crafted by a wizard is crafted by a 1st level wizard. A 2nd level spell crafted by a sorceror is crafted by a 4th level sorceror. A 3rd level spell crafted by a bard is crafted by a 7th level bard. That is ALL that line means. The lowest possible caster level for whatever class made the item is the one used for it's price. (It also means that if SELLING items players dont get to charge extra for being a higher level then the minimum required level for the spell).

Which classes crafted available scrolls wands and potions is ENTIRELY up to the dm like all other issues related to treasure. That is why all of the various costs are presented. There are scrolls\wands\potions made by paladins if and only if the dm decides there are, period. It is the dms choice just like the availability of all other magic items.

Did everyone just ignore this post? Because it seems quite pertinent.


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Cheapy wrote:
I think wands of lesser restoration would be in high demand. They're just so useful.

I disagree:
I understand where you're coming from, but I'm going to pick on your statement anyway, because I know you will take my disagreement in the spirit of constructive discussion rather than as a personal attack.
A wand of lesser restoration is very useful for an adventuring party, but that's a very wealthy set of customers with highly unusual needs.

First, the average citizen, should they ever be attacked in such a way that they take ability damage, is probably getting killed quite easily by their attacker. Should they survive, there's very little reason they would spend weeks worth of income to heal the ability damage, when they could simply rest for a few days and heal naturally. Adventurers, of course, live hurried dangerous lives and can't count on getting a good night's sleep.

The median annual household income in Pathfinder is probably about 1000 gold.
The median annual household income in the united states is about $50,000.

Buying a wand of Lesser Restoration is like buying a $40,000 piece of medical equipment that you might never need, and which only an expert case operate. Does anyone here own an MRI machine? Dialysis machine?

Also, if you have access to someone who can make a wand of XYZ, you obviously have access to someone who can simply CAST XYZ. So, rather than paying item creation costs, they're likely to cast the spell, either as a charity or for money.

My point, and the way I handle magic items.
All magic items are expensive and rare. The best way to get any magic item is to have it made for you. It only takes one day to make a 1st level wand or +1 armor, two days for a +1 weapon, a few days for a Belt of Strength +2, what's the rush?
Go to a city, hand over your money, and ask the local wizard/cleric/shop/guildhouse/temple to make whatever you need. Provided they're capable of making it, they'll jump at the opportunity to make 500 gold/day for enchanting!

When I run Pathfinder, magic items don't sit on shelves waiting for rich adventurers to buy them (except the occasional scroll or potion), but provided you're willing to plan ahead just a bit, anything you want is available.


ryric wrote:
In fact, in PFS, any paladin-only spell is peachy keen for purchase but you can't buy paladin versions of spells that are shared with other casters' lists.

Hi Ryric - do you by any chance have a source for this? And do the source say if it is the same for summoners? I've been thinking about buying scrolls of haste for my summoner (as a 2nd level spell with caster level 4) - but if what you say is correct, it might not be legal for play?

...annoying with these kind of silly exceptions :) I'm all for streamlining the prices of both wands and scrolls!

NOTE: My question is in regards to scrolls, I don't know if there's a marked difference in regards to the rules for wands?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Blueluck wrote:
The median annual household income in Pathfinder is probably about 1000 gold

I'd say it's more likely 10 gold given that a copper represents a menial worker's daily wage. Adventurer's skew the average so badly, that you do need to remove them from the equation.


LazarX wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
The median annual household income in Pathfinder is probably about 1000 gold
I'd say it's more likely 10 gold given that a copper represents a menial worker's daily wage. Adventurer's skew the average so badly, that you do need to remove them from the equation.

I think Abe did the math, and it was about 1000 pre-expenses and about 10 after expenses.

So you are both right! Huzzah!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Derwalt wrote:

Hi Ryric - do you by any chance have a source for this? And do the source say if it is the same for summoners? I've been thinking about buying scrolls of haste for my summoner (as a 2nd level spell with caster level 4) - but if what you say is correct, it might not be legal for play?

...annoying with these kind of silly exceptions :) I'm all for streamlining the prices of both wands and scrolls!

NOTE: My question is in regards to scrolls, I don't know if there's a marked difference in regards to the rules for wands?

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play, page 19. I'll quote it in spoiler to minimize derailment of thread:

Spoiler:
Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play wrote:

Potions, Scrolls and Wands

All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables
are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder
Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells
that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For
example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as
a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be
purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If
a spell appears at different levels on two different lists,
use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example,
poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of
a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are
available only at minimum caster level unless found at a
higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between
an arcane and divine scroll or wand in Pathfinder Society
Organized play. Thus a bard and cleric may both use the
same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th-level or higher are not
permitted unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle
sheet specifically listing them.

So you can buy and use scrolls of haste but they must be caster level 5 wizard scrolls. This ruling is quite...contentious on the PFS boards and it has been discussed to death there.


Cheapy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Blueluck wrote:
The median annual household income in Pathfinder is probably about 1000 gold
I'd say it's more likely 10 gold given that a copper represents a menial worker's daily wage. Adventurer's skew the average so badly, that you do need to remove them from the equation.

I think Abe did the math, and it was about 1000 pre-expenses and about 10 after expenses.

So you are both right! Huzzah!

38 gp actually but yeah -- you might have a potion of cure light wounds sitting on the top shelf of your pantry, but a wand of lesser restoration isn't going to be as common.

Though it is well within the wealth range of a local church, and a single charge off of such a wand should only cost 15 gp so it might be something a farmer could still afford to use once a year if needed.


LazarX wrote:
I'd say it's more likely 10 gold given that a copper represents a menial worker's daily wage.

I believe the daily wage for a menial labourer is 1 silver piece; or about 36.5 gold per year.

Silver Crusade

I am really surprised as how often the magic economy and NPC economy come up.

Also, Abe's analysis assumes a farmer who has to do untrained labor in the winter. That works for the little village he created. However, many professions allow year round work. e.g. merchant or tailor. So those people would have more left over at the end of the year; not much more but more.

The concept of being able to buy one charge off a wand from a rich group or person makes great sense too. People in villages and small towns might have a mutual insurance pool where they all throw in a gp or two a year and get certain benefits from that. I could see guilds providing a similar benefit to members.


Karkon I calculated the pay of people that were not farmers too when I did the village, and those extra 13 weeks were not insignificant in the way of disposable income: 398.5 gp compared to 572 gp for a year round professional for a difference of 173.5 gp. This is assuming the farmer's wife is bringing in about the same amount as an unskilled laborer on a regular basis (I reasoned this off of her performing odd jobs for neighbors like crafting specific items or what not in addition to running the household).

Silver Crusade

Abraham spalding wrote:
Karkon I calculated the pay of people that were not farmers too when I did the village, and those extra 13 weeks were not insignificant in the way of disposable income: 398.5 gp compared to 572 gp for a year round professional for a difference of 173.5 gp. This is assuming the farmer's wife is bringing in about the same amount as an unskilled laborer on a regular basis (I reasoned this off of her performing odd jobs for neighbors like crafting specific items or what not in addition to running the household).

Quiet you! *shakes fist* Fine, I admit I only skimmed that particular post. mutter grumble.


The best, and arguably only, way to exploit this the Pathfinder Savant prestige class. Basically you can get a few wizard spells at lower level by choosing off the summoner list with the esoteric magic class ability. Like 8th level wiz spells as 6th level ones. Not all, but some.


My estimate of median Pathfinder income was based on a skilled worker. Unskilled workers throughout history have been poor, aristocracy rich, and farmers capable of sustaining their families with little regard for the cash price of food and other items they make for themselves. Also, I essentially rounded up wherever possible to establish a high estimate of 1000 gold/year total income.

Even given the most generous view of income, only the extremely wealthy would have access to magic items of any kind. Also, since it generally takes a spellcaster to use a spell-casting item anyway and creating them is expensive, the local public service or retail facility will use direct spell casting rather than items.

The magic item economy shouldn't be compared to the modern economy for groceries, or clothing, or even cars. It's more like the modern economy for oil tankers, satellites, or jets. That is, made under contract rather than mass produced and sitting on shelves waiting for buyers.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also keep in mind that most midieval economies, especially rural, used barter more often than cash exchange.


Blueluck wrote:


Even given the most generous view of income, only the extremely wealthy would have access to magic items of any kind. Also, since it generally takes a spellcaster to use a spell-casting item anyway and creating them is expensive, the local public service or retail facility will use direct spell casting rather than items.

The magic item economy shouldn't be compared to the modern economy for groceries, or clothing, or even cars. It's more like the modern economy for oil tankers, satellites, or jets. That is, made under contract rather than mass produced and sitting on shelves waiting for buyers.

Honestly I was with you up until this point. Then your whole thing gives away to assumptions that aren't in RAW, and really doesn't hold up.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:
Blueluck wrote:


Even given the most generous view of income, only the extremely wealthy would have access to magic items of any kind. Also, since it generally takes a spellcaster to use a spell-casting item anyway and creating them is expensive, the local public service or retail facility will use direct spell casting rather than items.

The magic item economy shouldn't be compared to the modern economy for groceries, or clothing, or even cars. It's more like the modern economy for oil tankers, satellites, or jets. That is, made under contract rather than mass produced and sitting on shelves waiting for buyers.

Honestly I was with you up until this point. Then your whole thing gives away to assumptions that aren't in RAW, and really doesn't hold up.

RAW really doesn't make more than a token effort to build up a real economy, by RAW, the players are the ones that drive the main economic engine for game purposes, but it's a Gygaxian "Gold Rush" standard which hardly makes sense in the big picture.

There's at least one cartoon I remember that lamp shaded the situation it was a bout a town who had a kid whose duty was to watch for incoming adventurers, when he gave the alarm, the citizenry would flip over the pages changing the prices from medieval standard to "adventurer standard."

So any attempt to describe the economy as it's modeled in game terms should be taken with a heavy tongue in cheek.


LazarX wrote:


RAW really doesn't make more than a token effort to build up a real economy, by RAW, the players are the ones that drive the main economic engine for game purposes, but it's a Gygaxian "Gold Rush" standard which hardly makes sense in the big picture.

There's at least one cartoon I remember that lamp shaded the situation it was a bout a town who had a kid whose duty was to watch for incoming adventurers, when he gave the alarm, the citizenry would flip over the pages changing the prices from medieval standard to "adventurer standard."

So any attempt to describe the economy as it's modeled in game terms should be taken with a heavy tongue in cheek.

My opinion is people trying to stick to a 'medieval standard' is part of what hurts any real attempt to work on it.

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