What does a 10th, 15th, 20th-level spellcaster think of 1st-level commoners?
I know that such characters have no concept of levels or stats, but they DO know that their magic can kill legions of lesser people, defend against the most powerful of attacks, create new worlds, and generally manipulate reality as it is known by those of lesser power.
Surely that must have some effect on a person's psyche, whether they are good or evil.
What do you think such effects might be? Do you think that such power has any effect at all? Please discuss.
I think the phrase really is more a warning than a truth. It's a generalization. Power doesn't always corrupt, though I suppose true absolute power would be mighty tempting for even a saint. But how often does one obtain true absolute power? Even a 20th level wizard is not a god.
Philosophically speaking, one might only be showing his true power when he sets his might aside and metes out mercy.
The typical response in literature, when an evil person obtains such power levels, is probably self explanatory and granted. What happens to good characters is probably more interesting. Most would be tempted to do good, but would end up being despotic and tyrannical, despite their intentions. I would expect anybody who could stave off that temptation would be pretty godly.
Depends entirely upon the character's personality that in turn interacts with the society of the game world. Do the peasants fear magic users and chase after them with pitchforks and torches, or do they give them respect? If they fear them, the caster has to work hard to not give them a reason to. If they respect them, why would the caster have any animosity toward them?
Spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually.
Spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually.
Enter AM BARBARIAN and his magic-eating lack of tactics
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What does a 10th, 15th, 20th-level spellcaster think of 1st-level commoners?
How do you come up with these scenarios?
I imagine a high-level character (NPC or PC) would probably think of 1st-level commoners in much the same way someone like Rupert Murdoch would think of us in our world.
EDIT: Rupert Murdoch (LE hm Asshat 20).
Depends entirely upon the character's personality that in turn interacts with the society of the game world. Do the peasants fear magic users and chase after them with pitchforks and torches, or do they give them respect? If they fear them, the caster has to work hard to not give them a reason to. If they respect them, why would the caster have any animosity toward them?
Spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually.
Well the point is a 20th level caster walks into a village where an overwhelming majority of people of 1st level commoners and maybe... maybe the best person there is a 3rd to 5th level class fighter/aristocrat. There torch and pitchforks wouldn't stand up against a meteor strike and summon monster 9.
A very interesting question Ravingdork. IRL if I were the 20th level mage... what would I do? I'd hope that I'd be humble and meek. Knowing what people can be like, 1 exception will lead to another which will lead to another, the bar will become lower and lower until that 20th level mage is worse than the devil himself.
In D&D there are so many DMs that say, "Are you sure you want to do that? That may cause an alignment shift." Which causes players to rethink their actions and do something else. I think it would be cool to let the player do their thing good or bad and the DM keep a tally. The alignment shift can be subtle and a secret from the player. It would be cool to see the players face when a detect alignment reveals that he/she is something other than what's on the character sheet. The reason being is that people lie to themselves about who they are or where they are headed. This could be the same thing. "My character sheet says NG however the actions seem more LE" This would be an example of a person lying to themselves, which I think would be an interesting thing to play out.
By the way: the "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" quote is a logica falicy.
If one has "Absolute Power," then it is impossible to be corrupt, because nothing is forbidden.
What does a 10th, 15th, 20th-level spellcaster think of 1st-level commoners?
Beware the echo chamber.
If there are not other people to give you sanity checks of if you are surrounded by yes humanoids then things can spiral out of control.
You've probably got 22 intelligence or so, you've fought the good fight, helped the down trodden.
Now you are choosing what to do next.
You do know better than a 10int commoner, don't you? No one is disagreeing so it must be true.
You can't save them all can you, no sir you can't
A little collateral damage for the greater good, they should be grateful - the buggers -, why are they at the gates with pitch forks and torches.
How dare they, a little meteor storm will show the riff raff.
And so it begins.
Has anyone who has ever said that absolute power corrupts absolutely ever actually had any power? Or is it just the whining of the jealous 99%?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Petty power corrupts massively out of proportion to actual power.
And, back on point.
Superhero Comics have dealt with this problem from time to time.
Has anyone who has ever said that absolute power corrupts absolutely ever actually had any power? Or is it just the whining of the jealous 99%?
Well if they did end up with any power they would become corrupted wouldn't they.
And then start whining about the commoners.
Has anyone who has ever said that absolute power corrupts absolutely ever actually had any power? Or is it just the whining of the jealous 99%?Well if they did end up with any power they would become corrupted wouldn't they.
And then start whining about the commoners.
Its my belief that power doesn't corrupt as much as it magnifies. Any preexisting flaw in a person's character, which would just be a quirk in a normal person, can have dire repercussions when a person is very powerful.
Think about the President of the United States (any of them) and how their (preexisting) personality traits affect their governance.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Surely that must have some effect on a person's psyche, whether they are good or evil.
Every day, many of us hold the lives of others in our hands.
Every time I get behind the wheel of a car, there's not a person on the planet who would survive a ton and a half of metal barrelling into them at 60+ MPH.
It's not a big deal to get a permit to own or even carry a handgun, and that's the sort of power that allows one to effortlessly kill someone who is a hundred times more physically, intellectually or spiritually advanced than oneself. Bruce Lee? Bang. Stephen Hawkings? Bang. The Pope? Bang. Millions of people in the world are walking around with that power in their hands or at their hip, and a very small percentange of them flip out and start pulling the trigger, just because they have that power.
For spellcasters, I could see several factors, pulling in different directions;
1) To be a wizard able to kill a bunch of people, one has to work like a dog, for *years,* studying until one's eyes bleed, and learning to hold mental structures in one's mind that Bob next door can't even form the words to describe, let alone learn to do. That's going to create, on the one hand, a sense of profound superiority, which might lead some wizards to think less of the un-disciplined rabble, and lead others to think dismissively of those who haven't learned these skills, and still others to think *fondly* of them, like a parent regarding children, and envying them their age of innocence, not knowing the terrible things that the wizard has learned, leading to wizards alternately holding the bulk of humanity in contempt on one end of the scale, and other wizards feeling a drive to protect them, to shield them from the arcane world that exists around them. One wizard becomes Hannibal Lector, the other becomes Clarice Starling.
2) To be a sorcerer able to kill a bunch of people, one is born with a special gift, rare and precious, leading to a very natural conclusion that one is different than, and, perhaps, *better than* other people. Some will take this in a supremacist direction, perhaps even surrounding themselves with others of rarified bloodlines, or similarly touched by their own particular bloodline (a draconic sorcerer seeking out half-dragons, etc. and attempting to perhaps establish a community of dragon-blooded people). Others may consider their foreign blood to be a taint, that makes them *less* than human (or elf, whatever), and that could lead to bitterness and anger and a sense of rejection, or a desire to prove their value to those around them. This might be more common among aberrant or fiendish blooded sorcerers, who feel that they might have to 'make up for' whatever is 'wrong' with them.
Sorcerers are a funny lot, in that, flavorwise, they would seem the perfect class to be the persecuted moody outsider, and yet, mechanically, with Charisma their best score, they are likely to be the most popular kids on the playground... The angry-at-the-world sorcerer therefore becomes a rare thing, since, more likely, they grew up *far* more popular and accepted than the nerdy wizard, up all night with his books.
Still, that's one of those flavor vs. mechanics things.
3) Divine spellcasters who gain enough power to kill a bunch of commoners are often clerics, beholden to dieties with very specific ideas of how they should regard their increases attunement with the divine. A cleric of Zon-Kuthon might regard those less spiritually advanced than himself with contempt, and Zon-Kuthon might approve of that mindset, but a cleric of Iomedae who decides that he is better than the dirty stinking peasants and starts calling down flame strikes is going to have to answer to more than just an angry mob. (Divine spellcasters, in general, aren't going to have quite as many awesome crowd-killing spells as an arcane caster, as well, although Druids have some nice toys in the control weather / control winds / call lightning vein...)
Oracles and Druids, on the other hand, might not only lack the specific tenets forbidding them from opening up on a bunch of commoners, but might even feel like their position entitles them to do so, as they more directly choose their beliefs and don't have to justify their actions to 'the boss' at the end of the day.
.
Here on Earth, anyone, with barely any training at all (or none, even) can crawl behind the wheel of a car, or pick up a hand gun, and kill a bunch of people. Few choose to do so. Some, particularly in the case of the car, seem blithely unaware of the power they are (half-assedly) controlling. But since we aren't having daily recreations of the old Death Race movie, it seems that we don't have a lot of people inclined to do that sort of thing (or willing to face the consequences of doing that sort of thing, anyway).
Under PF rules, anyone with the power to kill crowds of people magically will have undergone years, perhaps even decades, worth of training, to do so. They won't be the 'idiot with a car' or 'idiot with a gun,' they'll be the equivalent of fighter pilots and nuclear physicists, people who could, in theory, cause incredible devastation, and yet, in practice, don't.
Even the most evil of high level spellcasters might regard blasting a crowd of peasants into cinders with a fireball as 'beneath him' or a waste of perfectly good magic.
What does a 10th, 15th, 20th-level spellcaster think of 1st-level commoners?
I know that such characters have no concept of levels or stats, but they DO know that their magic can kill legions of lesser people, defend against the most powerful of attacks, create new worlds, and generally manipulate reality as it is known by those of lesser power.
Surely that must have some effect on a person's psyche, whether they are good or evil.
What do you think such effects might be? Do you think that such power has any effect at all? Please discuss.
Simple. My 18th level, lich wizard thinks of these people as a resource. Not something to be abused for power, but something vital that he devotes a lot of effort to protect, as an obligation. After all, if he were to eliminate them, how would any among them have a chance to rise to greatness and increased understanding?
Surely that must have some effect on a person's psyche, whether they are good or evil.Every day, many of us hold the lives of others in our hands.
And don't forget the Psychopath, who by their nature will attempt to gain power and lack empathy for anyone.
And no, I'm not saying most of those with 'Power' are psychopaths, I believe most of the 'Power that corrupts' comes from honest temptation.
But the psychopath will be have a over representation in power spaces that are unmoderated.
Talk about wizards, sorcerers and clerics
Would clerics be less corruptible since, by definition, they have a higher power - their god - who could take away their source of power.
Talking about goodish clerics, naturally, since the evilish clerics are sort of meant to be corrupt.(If an evil cleric becomes good, is that corruption?)Would the discipline of the Wizards study make them resistant to corruption, having distilled a sense of discipline and direct knowledge of what can happen if you cross the line.
Would the sorcerers strength of self make them resistant to temptation.
What about a fighter?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The original quote is "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Lord Acton said it, so I think it's safe to say it's not the powerless whining about those in power. The term absolute power refers to democratic checks and balances, the mechanisms by which we prevent absolute power. Elections even at the highest levels, independent courts, that kind of thing. If those are dismantled, horror ensues.
A 20th level wizard is not god. In a typical fantasy world, he's not evel close to the top of the pile. It doesn't really apply. However, there is another factor that would be more important. The quote is "it's lonely at the top". For all their power, there are extremely few they can truly trust. Friends would be intensely valued. There are hordes of people who would try to use his powerbyvarious means, and it gets tiresome. Isolation becomes the easy way out, hence demiplanes, wizard towers, and so on. As for commoners, some would prefer rulership over them, and whether they did well at it would be determined by their talents for it. Given a typically decent intelligence, most would do acceptably well. Still, my guess is that commoners would not even register to most archmages - they simply have no common frame of reference.
Well the point is a 20th level caster walks into a village where an overwhelming majority of people of 1st level commoners and maybe... maybe the best person there is a 3rd to 5th level class fighter/aristocrat. There torch and pitchforks wouldn't stand up against a meteor strike and summon monster 9.Depends entirely upon the character's personality that in turn interacts with the society of the game world. Do the peasants fear magic users and chase after them with pitchforks and torches, or do they give them respect? If they fear them, the caster has to work hard to not give them a reason to. If they respect them, why would the caster have any animosity toward them?
Spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually.
Where exactly did I say that it was the peasants who would bring the spellcaster down?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Has anyone who has ever said that absolute power corrupts absolutely ever actually had any power? Or is it just the whining of the jealous 99%?
Lord Acton was hardly one of the 99%. He was a historian, and he was commenting on what he had learned from history. Another great quote of his is "Great men are almost always bad men."
Another favorite: "It is bad to be oppressed by a minority, but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority. For there is a reserve of latent power in the masses which, if it is called into play, the minority can seldom resist. But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason."
Oh, well. Gamers used to know stuff. *sigh*
Edit: Ninja'd by Sissyl. Yay!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
By the way: the "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" quote is a logica falicy.
If one has "Absolute Power," then it is impossible to be corrupt, because nothing is forbidden.
Doesn't that just prove it, though? If all the things that were once forbidden become possible for a man, then that man has been corrupted, changed or warped, from what he was before.
If a paladin sees raping and murdering innocent villagers as something that he could possibly do, he is corrupted. Now I'm not talking about him thinking it is possible that someday a wizard will cast dominate person on him and force him to. He thinks he could do it, because he believes he has absolute power and there is no higher authority to stop him.
Absolute vodka corrupts absolutely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if by lvl 20 you don't live in your own custommade plane with nymphs and succubi you are doing something wrong.
Also, it depends a lot on your wisdom score wether you go nuts or not.
Well the point is a 20th level caster walks into a village where an overwhelming majority of people of 1st level commoners and maybe... maybe the best person there is a 3rd to 5th level class fighter/aristocrat. There torch and pitchforks wouldn't stand up against a meteor strike and summon monster 9.Depends entirely upon the character's personality that in turn interacts with the society of the game world. Do the peasants fear magic users and chase after them with pitchforks and torches, or do they give them respect? If they fear them, the caster has to work hard to not give them a reason to. If they respect them, why would the caster have any animosity toward them?
Spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually.
Where exactly did I say that it was the peasants who would bring the spellcaster down?
You didn't... I read the peasant part and promptly ignored the rest. my bad. You are right, spellcasters on a power trip can and will be brought low eventually, but it will take a while and lots of resources. This hasn't stopped spellcasters from becoming evil, from trying to take over the world, or from being petty.
A spellcaster could become evil but stay nicer than a balor so that resources are devoted to stopping the demon summoner and he will always be the "we'll get to him later, right now we have this" type of evildoer. He could make life miserable for lots of others without making himself too much of a target.
The point is though, at that power level, there isn't too much that can stop him and of those things that can, it will take a while (maybe several years or decades). Plus it is most likely the mage has studied his opposition so that he is prepared, adding even more to his ego.
Good stuff
You said what I wanted but was not able to.
I
First we have the Good Wizard that is kind and generous revered by his community. The people always turn to him for guidance and help. It would be very easy for him to slip down the road of feeling that he knows best. He does things for the communitie's own good whether they realize it or not. If a child was horrible assulted and was having nightmares and sever psycological problems because of it would it be right to erase her memory of the event so she could live a more normal life? But is this the right thing to do?
Harder question:
The good wizard divines glimpses of the future of the child, and sees that they would be wracked with depression and torment as an adult without intervention, but would otherwise live as a good person. He decides not only to wipe their memory but that he should play guardian angel for the child during times he divined that further misfortune might come, secretly keeping them safe from harm until they are of age.The child develops a sense of superiority, thinking that no harm can possibly befall them, and becomes a horrible person as an adult.
Was helping the wrong thing to do?
|
|
True most people that own/carry guns or drive cars can in fact kill pretty easily. However they can not kill without reprecussions. There are laws and punishments for killing people and it is fairly easy for the powers that be to find you and lock you up.
No matter what level a wizard can reach, there's always *someone* that's scarier to him than a cop is to me.
Rovagug thought he was untouchable. He's in a box for the last 10,000 years. Razmiran seems effectively untouchable, currently, but lives in absolute dread every second of every day, because he's dying anyway. Tar-Baphon smacked down an overconfident goddess, and, like Rovagug, has been locked in the hoosegow, just like a common human murderer. That demon lord, Aolar, that was stealing the followers of various gods probably thought he was hot stuff right until Desna fluttered down into the Abyss and ate his face.
Nex and Geb are good examples of this in action. Either one of them might have expanded to control all of Garund, and perhaps even the Inner Sea entirely (Nex turning it into Eberron, Geb into a 'white kingdom'), but they ended up running into someone who was their match (each other) and wasting most of their energy on each other.
Sure, some people are gonna go nuts with power and think they are all that and a wedge of cheese, but there's always a bigger fish (or a sufficient number of smaller fish that are equally dangerous, when teamed up against you!).
The intelligent super-powerful person will remain cognizant that there's a lot of *other* super-powerful stuff out there, and that everyone can die.
By the way: the "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely" quote is a logica falicy.
If one has "Absolute Power," then it is impossible to be corrupt, because nothing is forbidden.
Doesn't that just prove it, though? If all the things that were once forbidden become possible for a man, then that man has been corrupted, changed or warped, from what he was before.
If a paladin sees raping and murdering innocent villagers as something that he could possibly do, he is corrupted. Now I'm not talking about him thinking it is possible that someday a wizard will cast dominate person on him and force him to. He thinks he could do it, because he believes he has absolute power and there is no higher authority to stop him.
You are missing a point here.
If someone actually has Absolute Power, then there really is no higher authority to stop them.
A more interresting example of what you are discussing is the historical Roman Emperor Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus. He probibly came closer to having absolute power then any other person in history and (if contempory sourses are to be belived) did many things that would have been criminal for any lesser man. Of course, the Praetorian Guards eventually had enough of this...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think I like the idea of 'with great power comes great responsibility'.
If we are talking about being Heroes - y'know the reason a lot of people (myself included) play RPGs in the first place then I look at 1st level commoners being the reason I adventure. I take on the horrors they can't face so they can live the life they choose in safety.
I know this isn't popular amoung a segment of RPGers but I don't game with those kind of players anymore.
Sure it would affect your psyche, but I don’t think any more than a 20th level martial character.
How it would affect someone would vary a lot person by person. Just like how money affects people irl.
I agree with what someone else said. Power - at least the kind that is achieved from actual work, mortal risk and dedication - more amplifies a person’s personality and allows them to express themselves in ways others can’t than it changes them. They are just working on a larger scale. A billionaire who builds a school isn’t any more or less generous than the poor person who donates $5 to it. A tyrant is a tyrant whether they oppress a country or their family. Power just makes it easier to be a saint or an a&*&#~~. It doesn’t turn you into one.
If there is a universal rule for how power affects people. It is that it makes them feel more special. Though not necessarily in a good way.
Does a rule without enforcement remain a rule?
Sure. Just look at any of the U.S. laws enforced by the Securities Exchange Commission.
I think I like the idea of 'with great power comes great responsibility'.
If we are talking about being Heroes - y'know the reason a lot of people (myself included) play RPGs in the first place then I look at 1st level commoners being the reason I adventure. I take on the horrors they can't face so they can live the life they choose in safety.
I know this isn't popular amoung a segment of RPGers but I don't game with those kind of players anymore.
This says all that I wanted to say, but says it better. +1 ^^
|
|
I hate to say it, but Ravingdork's threads are almost always fun. Or weird, which I think is fun. One of the two.A delicate blend of both?
Yeah, if nothing else, his threads remind my of why I pre-screen my players over a beer or coffee so we can see if our play styles are compatible. His threads tend to bring out a comprehensive example of the different sensibilities in our hobby. I'd hate to be responsible for someone not enjoying their play experience, and vice versa.
Any other opinions or thoughts?
Absolute power rocks absolutely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Of course I've gone mad with power. Have you ever tried going mad without power? It's no fun at all" ~ EPA guy from the Simpsons movie