Goblin Squad Member
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@Pharazon, the problem with darkness that Ryan was concerned about was that it would be easy to hack to be able to see through it. This is because the Client process can't be trusted to enforce any rules. If the Client is aware of something, then the player can be aware of it. In order to keep the player from being aware of stuff their character shouldn't be aware of, you have to make that determination (should they be aware of it) on the server, and only send things to the client if the character should be aware of it. Making that determination on the server means more work on the server.
I understand the argument but I don't think it holds up in my scenario. The difference between what he is talking about and what I'm talking about is that if you can not see something your client would never be told about it thus not rendering it, like something that is invisible. If you can see it then it just has to be determined what you see. Rather than render a character model and have the client render it with effects that make it look like its in shadow (which is what he was talking about with hackers keeping the client from adding these render effects) I was saying that a entirely different texture would exist.
For example it would be the same as telling the client to render a tree versus a shrub. You can keep any effects from being rendered but you can't have it render a shrub instead of the tree because it is going to pull the texture for the tree not the shrub.
Going one further, assuming someone took the time to replace all the person.shadow textures with person.normal textures it wouldn't really matter because you are supposed to see them anyway, just not that clearly. If the person is beyond what you can see or you fail your perception to see it, it never renders the object in the first place so no amount of texture replacing or render hacking will make it render since your client doesn't know about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Torches are cheap.
75g gets you a permanent hands-free light that won't cause smoke or burns, so torches are not only cheap, they're irrelevant.
I just don't think "people will cheat the system" should be one of them. After all, one can say that about any part of the game from basic attacks to skill cool down.
You don't let the client program handle game rules in an online world.
Never trust the client.
Never put anything on the client. The client is in the hands of the enemy. Never ever ever forget this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, but I really can’t bring myself to read the whole thread, so I will just say my stuff. I learned some things about myself:
1. I don’t care about “real” darkness, the wow approach works for me.
2. I don’t care about other games. Something might have worked perfectly in random game 2123423, but there is no reason, for it to have a place in Pathfinder Online.
3. I really need an add-on for my browser to replace the word immersion with something funny/profane. I gets thrown around to justify everything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... if you can not see something your client would never be told about it...That's exactly what I said. That means the determination of whether or not you can see something has to be made on the server.
Sounds to me as the only logical solution to avoid a whole host of issues...especially if the decision has already been made that everyone will cheat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the sounds of it darkness has been done in other MMOs. Did it work in those MMOs? If not, what about it was broken and can it be fixed now that it is 2013?
If it can be done I think it would be a lot of fun. I like scary movies though and I like the fact that there can be things hiding in the corner that you just can't simply see. Having to decide over whether you carry your shield in your off hand or a torch adds to the challenge.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... if you can not see something your client would never be told about it...That's exactly what I said. That means the determination of whether or not you can see something has to be made on the server.
Yeah I think we're both on the same page mostly. The only disconnect is that I don't agree with some of the concerns expressed by others in thread over the concerns of extra load on the server. In relation to not having a true night phase, yes, there would be more load on the server.
But my point was that if you look at the load on the server to accomplish a true night phase that it would be no more taxing than running large scale combat where invisibility has to be checked for. When I am adventuring at night am I likely to ever need more visibility checks than a person during the day engaged in large scale combat where my opponents and allies both have access to invisbility? I don't believe so.
This is why I don't see having the server handle visibility in the night to avoid the potential rendering exploits, to be an issue. There may be other technical limitations but I don't agree with the extra server load portion being an issue like some people have suggested.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But my point was that if you look at the load on the server to accomplish a true night phase that it would be no more taxing than running large scale combat where invisibility has to be checked for. When I am adventuring at night am I likely to ever need more visibility checks than a person during the day engaged in large scale combat where my opponents and allies both have access to invisbility? I don't believe so.
This is why I don't see having the server handle visibility in the night to avoid the potential rendering exploits, to be an issue. There may be other technical limitations but I don't agree with the extra server load portion being an issue like some people have suggested.
I'm no expert, but this invisibility metaphor seems like a valid argument against the claims of cheating. Cool. I'd still like to think the devs would consider something like this.
"I can see a lynch mob with torches in the dark streets of the slums of River Kingdoms."
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would really like realistic darkness - an adventure into a cave isn't nearly so intense when you can easily see everything as if it were daylight. Atmosphere matters - look at Minecraft, where you really can't see anything without a light source. It can be rather terrifying at times. It's a thrill, just like adventuring is meant to be.
However, this idea does seems to have been shot down by Ryan on the first page of this thread, so... I guess I'll just be disappointed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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especially if the decision has already been made that everyone will cheat.
Who is more likely to cheat, the average new player or the average PK?
Whether the server takes on the processing load or the client handles it and people do or do not hack it, IT DOESN'T MATTER. GW has already invented lore reasons for MMO tropes (Pharasma marks you to be resurrected if you die), and as I have pointed out twice now, there is cheap and permanent magical light available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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especially if the decision has already been made that everyone will cheat.Who is more likely to cheat, the average new player or the average PK?
Whether the server takes on the processing load or the client handles it and people do or do not hack it, IT DOESN'T MATTER. GW has already invented lore reasons for MMO tropes (Pharasma marks you to be resurrected if you die), and as I have pointed out twice now, there is cheap and permanent magical light available.
Unless the world itself is bio-luminescent then light out in the world would still not be what MMO's have chosen to display. I'm not against not having true darkness, but I think the opportunities to have smugglers who specialize in running at night, and having the added tension to transporting goods at night, or even bumping into monsters while at night to be highly desirable.
I understand GW may chose not to take on the challenge of true night and that's fine but it should be because the undertaking is too big, or there are limitations beyond, what amounts to a cop out IMO of "hackers gonna hack". If that was the case then we might as well keep the game text based because people are going to Bot with 3-d characters (This is hyperbolic on purpose).
There is no reason not to present both sides of the argument and any ideas that we can about what we would like to see. It's simply letting GW know what we are and aren't interested in and something to dream about while waiting on the game.
--Pharazon
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyone stop to think how long it might take to redownload the geometries of what wasn't drawn due to darkness the first time someone decides to make a light?
Of course you could excuse the lapse in frames saying your eyes are adjusting to the brightness. Unless the light is from an onrushing band of hostiles...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure why you clicked 'reply' to my post when you didn't actually address it.
I addressed what I thought was a comment about the mass availability of cheap light as a reason not to have a true night phase. If that wasn't the intent of the statement I apologize. I did go beyond that in the rest of the post though.
Anyone stop to think how long it might take to redownload the geometries of what wasn't drawn due to darkness the first time someone decides to make a light?
Of course you could excuse the lapse in frames saying your eyes are adjusting to the brightness. Unless the light is from an onrushing band of hostiles...
It's not really any different than having a spell effect light up an area. This portion would still be handled the same as it is now. But as far as something suddenly appearing because light was suddenly brought into existence would be no different than having a party of players suddenly pop in from being invisible since you don't download the geometries when someone becomes visible, your client is told which textures to load from your local storage (most likely in RAM while running) by the server and the client simply draws them. Again I'm not an expert but I just don't see this as much harder to handle than invisibility.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you are in a small room it isn't much different, no. If you are in a large complicated room then maybe it is. Normally everything would load in as you entered, and if you cast Light it would simply increase illumination from the light source: the textures are already there. If under your system you aren't loading anything beyond, say, twenty feet, your system would have to load it in.
Might make a delay, might not. But it might.
Then if I rush in at you, reveal a bright light and it takes time to load, you might be helpless there for the duration while my men whittle down your party. If everyone seems to be coming around, my guys already have their targets and start hitting more of you. I turn out the light and your client has to take time to offload all that it just loaded.
So I might be able to chain stun you in effect by just strobing a light.
Okay, so you have a high end card and lotsa RAM. Your buddy might not. If I can reduce your party's effective strength by say 20% per player with a low-end system I will have a significant advantage and all because I could strobe my lightsource.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure why you clicked 'reply' to my post when you didn't actually address it.I addressed what I thought was a comment about the mass availability of cheap light as a reason not to have a true night phase. If that wasn't the intent of the statement I apologize. I did go beyond that in the rest of the post though.
My point was just that the question is made moot by the easy availability of light without drawbacks. The 'ioun torch' item is just a continual flame spell cast on an ioun stone which has lost all of its power besides the ability to float beside your head. The 'flame' sheds light, but not heat, and doesn't consume fuel. It costs only 75g, so it would be available to anyone, probably in under an hour.
Why would the devs code a system to process light sources server-side, taking up their development time and using a lot of server resources, for an effect that anyone can make irrelevant in under an hour?
If lighting is processed client-side, then the same effects could make it irrelevant, but for those new players who can't afford a continual flame spell yet, going out at night would just make them more vulnerable to player-killers who are the most likely to hack their client.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well that assumes having the thing produces complete light rather than a given area
So you get two... or a Wayfinder... or you train just enough sorcery to get a light or dancing lights cantrip... or any number of other solutions. It's just too much in development and server resources for too little payoff. Maybe by the time they've run out of other things to do and the servers are powerful enough to make hundreds or thousands of visibility calculations per second a trivial thing...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being and others
I will try and describe my system for true night a bit better so you can understand what I mean since it seems clear that what I actually envision isn't coming across well and may help assuage some of the concerns you have.
I think a big part of the disconnect is I'm thinking of a system that simulates "true night" in feel and mechanics without actually needing to be based 100% in lighting effects. You start by rendering everything darker than normal similar to current mmo's but you shorten the draw distance at night so that after a certain point (120ish? ft for max line of sight at night) the world feels closed in on you like it would at night (This setting would have to hard coded to take effect during the night cycle so it was separate from normal draw distnace). This drastically reduces the textures that have to be rendered by the system as an added performance bonus.
Next light sources are used when considering perception related checks that server is doing but are not real time effects, though with shorter draw distance you could probably add a bit of "spell effect" visual (again this doesn't let you see more or effect the environment much other than letting you "see" your light source much like a fireball tinting things red briefly). Either way YOU can see 120ish ft of environment that is rendered in a manner that feels like night, but YOUR CHARACTER will not be able to see every object in that 120ish ft unless the proper perception evaluations are passed. Even if I hack the render at this point the only thing effected is the environment so I gain no edge since objects are being handled outside of this. If I have a torch and normal vision then an object that is beyond the dim range of the torch should count as invisible to me and thus not be rendered at all. I would assume this would be much like how stealth would be handled in that I can see everything in the environment but the rogue hiding in the bushes is not rendered because my perception was not high enough to see him.
My other point was that you could use additional textures to further the feeling of the night by using textures with less resolution and more black during the night time phase. Again not completely so but to lessen the definition some as you would actually have when it's night. Same with the flavor of darkvision loading a generic black and white line texture for a human when I encounter one out and have no light source but can see them with my darkvison.
Basically you go a bit darker than most MMO's by default and let players adjust that to get the environment as night feeling as they want. But use light and vision as an actual mechanic to reinforce the dangers of the dark. I feel that completely ignoring the mechanical workings of the night and the opportunity to make people afraid of it would be a mistake.
I do want to make clear that the idea of complete darkness and only being able to see what my torch illuminates because that's the only area that my lighting effect is helping render is not a solution I agree with either. I hope that the above helped clarify what I would like to see and what I was trying to convey earlier.
--Pharazon
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Goblin Squad Member
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New to the forums here, but as a long time gamer I would love to see 'real' darkness make a comeback to MMO's, for several reasons. I think it helps with immersion, creating a sense of danger and whatnot -- but also it creates a need for for torches, light spells, magic items, etc. all of which add flavor and complexity to a game when the trend for the past 10+ years is to dumb it down and make everything easily accessible.
Some of the most fun (and frustration!) I've had gaming was running through or retrieving my corpse in Kithicor Forest.
I've read in this topic about the technical limitations and whatnot -- but i have to ask: if the dev's can't stop light patching/hacking, how will they prevent radar, LOS hacking, etc. You have to draw the line somewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Pharazon
First let me reassure you that I agree it would be better to have true night. But I also agree with Ryan that I'm going to want to play on an even playing field.
I keep bumping into problems with the 'reduced draw distance' idea, even though it is elegant in most respects.
At night if there is a campfire a mile off I am going to see it clearly, even though it is over 120' away. If I move and I pass some sort of object between me and that distant campfire it will occlude the view of the campfire.
If I am in a great hall in a dungeon and a sconce of oil is lit in a distant hallway I'm not only going to see that lit sconce but also the shine off the polished table, the glimmer of the utensils on that table, I;m going to see the seams in the flagstone paving the floor of the hall and all are farther than 120' (and some closer).
If I am outside at night and there are stars in the sky I will be able to see the sillohuette of the mountain as well as the fir trees.
It won't work to simply not draw what is beyond 120'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You guys play a much higher fantasy version of Pathfinder than I do...especially at low levels, 75g is a lot of money. In my games, torches are much more economical. And, the light cantrip you keep expounding is first only available to magic users, and second...only has a 20-foot radius. For those of us who use a mat, that is 5 hexes...beyond that would be the argued for meaningful darkness. Sorry, I do not think your examples make the argument for meaningful darkness moot.
Oh, and even if you have a 75g magic item that glows, die, get looted...guess you do not have one anymore...should have just bought a torch...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Pharazon
First let me reassure you that I agree it would be better to have true night. But I also agree with Ryan that I'm going to want to play on an even playing field.I keep bumping into problems with the 'reduced draw distance' idea, even though it is elegant in most respects.
At night if there is a campfire a mile off I am going to see it clearly, even though it is over 120' away. If I move and I pass some sort of object between me and that distant campfire it will occlude the view of the campfire.
If I am in a great hall in a dungeon and a sconce of oil is lit in a distant hallway I'm not only going to see that lit sconce but also the shine off the polished table, the glimmer of the utensils on that table, I;m going to see the seams in the flagstone paving the floor of the hall and all are farther than 120' (and some closer).
If I am outside at night and there are stars in the sky I will be able to see the sillohuette of the mountain as well as the fir trees.
It won't work to simply not draw what is beyond 120'.
Good points. The first actual discussion on the proposal I have seen. Thanks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Pharazon
First let me reassure you that I agree it would be better to have true night. But I also agree with Ryan that I'm going to want to play on an even playing field.I keep bumping into problems with the 'reduced draw distance' idea, even though it is elegant in most respects.
At night if there is a campfire a mile off I am going to see it clearly, even though it is over 120' away. If I move and I pass some sort of object between me and that distant campfire it will occlude the view of the campfire.
If I am in a great hall in a dungeon and a sconce of oil is lit in a distant hallway I'm not only going to see that lit sconce but also the shine off the polished table, the glimmer of the utensils on that table, I;m going to see the seams in the flagstone paving the floor of the hall and all are farther than 120' (and some closer).
If I am outside at night and there are stars in the sky I will be able to see the sillohuette of the mountain as well as the fir trees.
It won't work to simply not draw what is beyond 120'.
Okay now that we are on the same page :) I think these are good points but first I can't think of a game right off that will show you a campfire over a mile away.
I think you are more in the realm of realism, which I would love to have myself, but I don't think is possible even from much larger companies with much larger bank rolls. I think the solution is to get the "feeling" of the night correct as best that you can with as much realism as you can within the bounds of the engine and the system.
For example you could potentially use "set pieces" of terrain to handle some of what you mentioned. A town way off in the distance is a known point so are the mountains beyond that. You wouldn't necessarily need a draw distance greater than your immediate vicinity to draw that as it is almost a background to your immediate area. So potentially two layers. the not quite so detailed background of mountains, and large set pieces and then the rendering of your immediate surroundings of trees shrubs, overturned carts, etc.
I admit handling campfires, assuming you can create them adhoc and are not known points, would need more thought to a decent solution. But that's what game companies are for. I am but one person so I definitely don't have all the answers.
But overall it should be possible to create a more real night than currently exists in the MMO space (lets face it there really aren't night cycles just less bright times of day) in PFO. It won't be completely real or observe every rule of the real world but it should be a step beyond what we have and we are already suspending disbelief for those.
--Pharazon
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Goblin Squad Member
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You guys play a much higher fantasy version of Pathfinder than I do...especially at low levels, 75g is a lot of money. In my games, torches are much more economical. And, the light cantrip you keep expounding is first only available to magic users, and second...only has a 20-foot radius. For those of us who use a mat, that is 5 hexes...beyond that would be the argued for meaningful darkness. Sorry, I do not think your examples make the argument for meaningful darkness moot.
Oh, and even if you have a 75g magic item that glows, die, get looted...guess you do not have one anymore...should have just bought a torch...
You could be playing a game where at 20th level you hope to upgrade your weapon from a stick to a pointy stick, but there are average wealth-per-level tables in the game. Those are the default assumption, so unless you specify you're playing Pennyfinder, you can't assume others are following your house rules. Well, you can assume it, but you'll be wrong.
You can get a cantrip as a background trait in PFRPG, and PFO doesn't even use classes in the way the tabletop game does. You don't declare yourself a wizard and then get locked into training only the things wizards can do, you train things you want to do and earn the right to call yourself a wizard when you've mastered a sufficient number of basic spells. This means lots of people can dabble in low-powered magic.
DANCING LIGHTS
School evocation [light]; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect Up to four lights, all within a 10-ft.-radius area
Duration 1 minute (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Depending on the version selected, you create up to four lights that resemble lanterns or torches (and cast that amount of light), or up to four glowing spheres of light (which look like will-o'-wisps), or one faintly glowing, vaguely humanoid shape. The dancing lights must stay within a 10-foot-radius area in relation to each other but otherwise move as you desire (no concentration required): forward or back, up or down, straight or turning corners, or the like. The lights can move up to 100 feet per round. A light winks out if the distance between you and it exceeds the spell's range.You can only have one dancing lights spell active at any one time. If you cast this spell while another casting is still in effect, the previous casting is dispelled. If you make this spell permanent, it does not count against this limit.
Dancing lights can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Okay, so... one lantern 10' ahead of me, one 10' behind, and one 10' to each side, all for the cost of a word and a gesture (cheaper than a penny, in case that isn't clear). A highly-detailed implementation of this cantrip with all of its ability to move about would trivialize the highly-detailed implementation of darkness. They can save dev time on both sides of the equation, dim the lighting at night, and move on to code things that are actually interesting. If we were looking at Zork Online and you needed light to ward off the grues lurking in every shadow, then darkness would be a serious challenge and a vital part of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A highly-detailed implementation of this cantrip with all of its ability to move about would trivialize the highly-detailed implementation of darkness.
Couldn't the same be said about an involved implementation of hunger and thirst being solved by simply buying food and drink? I dont think having to buy torches trivialises night being dark, i think its an appropriate response to the night being dark.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A highly-detailed implementation of this cantrip with all of its ability to move about would trivialize the highly-detailed implementation of darkness.Couldn't the same be said about an involved implementation of hunger and thirst being solved by simply buying food and drink? I dont think having to buy torches trivialises night being dark, i think its an appropriate response to the night being dark.
Are you claiming that processing the lighting server-side would be equivalent to a hunger system (in terms of server resources), or have you just not read enough of this thread to understand why that's a false analogy?
This isn't a tabletop game, where the limits of complexity are set by what the players care to track. Any important detail in PFO will be tracked by the game server, because any details tracked by the client programs are open to being hacked. The client only acts as a terminal for interaction with the server.
Also, the spell dancing lights (which is what you were apparently replying to) is not a torch which costs .01g, it's a cantrip which produces four hands-free torches and costs nothing but a word and a gesture.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just dont think saying that buying a light source as a reponse to darkness should really be calling it trivialising the mechanic.In a tabletop game, no. Are you imagining that logging in to PFO will involve driving to Seattle?
Ok so working out lighting is too much work, why stop there though? What other aspects of gameplay could we trim out of the development budget in order to reduce the strain on the servers, cause i mean if we are cutting out something that is occuring half of the time in game surely there are things that occur less that can be cut. Mapping the path of shadows due to the sun? I mean you could trivialise that by surround yourself in static lighting, no change in the direction of the lighting means no change in shadows.
It all comes down to what you want out of the game in the end. I would love to have meaningful night times, regardless of whether or not having a torch or other light source would reduce it effect, the ambiance of walking through forest with nothing but the ring of light from my torch to buoy my spirits should be something worth trying for to me.
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Ryan is the one that needs to be convinced . Pharazon put forth an idea that might bring darkness to the game without increasing load on the servers. (Honestly I have no idea if it would or not, I'm not a tech) if there's a way to get Ryan to look over the idea and give his opinion rhen the question of whether or not darkness will make it into the game could be answered.
Edit: I removed part of my post because it was akin to banging my head against a brick wall thinking I was going to knock it down. Heh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry for the flippant response, its midnight and i'm operating on 2 hours of sleep, shouldn't be an excuse for my rudeness though. Anyway i just don't think the pessimistic attitude of it will be too hard so don't try is a healthy one, you can never succeed if you don't give it a try after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Mapping the path of shadows due to the sun? I mean you could trivialise that by surround yourself in static lighting, no change in the direction of the lighting means no change in shadows.
Shadows like that don't significantly affect gameplay, and as such are fine as a client-side rendering thing. GW could make night dark like that, but while you're wandering around with a torch the PKs will have their client hacked to remove darkness effects.
These games have been around for 15+ years now, but even at the beginning the first designers realized you can't trust the client program. You're asking for the effects of lighting to be rendered server-side and then sent to you, and I'm saying the servers are not going to handle that when you multiply it by a few hundred players, let alone tens or hundreds of thousands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
I'm curious what you think about the idea that I put forth. I clearly agree that true lighting effects for night are beyond the scope and budget of GW (and most MMO companies honestly) but that doesn't mean you can't create a meaningful night cycle.
I would be interested to see the conversation moved from lighting effects like Legend of Grimrock to a discussion of a system that makes the change from day to night meaningful and even atmospheric without needing to go all the way into client side lighting effects for all things.
As I've said before just because it isn't being done in other MMO's doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done in PFO, especially because of the added gameplay that it could bring.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You know you can have the change to night from day remarkable even if the lighting is only twilit. The sky can be black and spilling with glorious stars and moon while the world remains visible.
Star and moonlight removes all color, and object appear in shades of gray. More than fifty shades for anyone preoccupied with counting. This is quite different from areas lit by firelight, which glistens with reddish gold highlights.
I would also recommend what walkers of the night rely on for warning of someon or something approaching. Unless it is particularly stealthy the first thing the alert notice is a stilling of the crickets and frogs of night.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A highly-detailed implementation of this cantrip with all of its ability to move about would trivialize the highly-detailed implementation of darkness.Couldn't the same be said about an involved implementation of hunger and thirst being solved by simply buying food and drink? I dont think having to buy torches trivialises night being dark, i think its an appropriate response to the night being dark.Are you claiming that processing the lighting server-side would be equivalent to a hunger system (in terms of server resources), or have you just not read enough of this thread to understand why that's a false analogy?
This isn't a tabletop game, where the limits of complexity are set by what the players care to track. Any important detail in PFO will be tracked by the game server, because any details tracked by the client programs are open to being hacked. The client only acts as a terminal for interaction with the server.
Also, the spell dancing lights (which is what you were apparently replying to) is not a torch which costs .01g, it's a cantrip which produces four hands-free torches and costs nothing but a word and a gesture.
Actually I think you are illustrating the interesting mechanics of light/darkness perfectly. You can have your 20' radius circle (4 hex radius) of light...again not a far distance. But, it sure does highlight your position well to anyone just outside that circle.
And, of course, the higher your level the bigger and brighter your light...the bigger beacon you are making. Just because you can, does not mean you should.
Personally I think taking these things (strategies, pros and cons) into consideration would make the game much more interesting.
I would love to see day/night, and the players races as well as mobs vision types come into play as part of the world.. If it were able to be done in a way that wouldn't bog down the servers, even better.
Utilizing darkness would add many many possibilities to how PC and NPC are dealt with.
I'm envisioning a settlement under siege mustering a company of dimi-humans to stage a midnight strike on the enemy leaders camp seeking to remove him and demoralize the attacking force followed by a dawn assault on the enemy siege camp.
Or perhaps that same settlement using the cover of darkness to slip a small party past the enemy camp and their guards in a effort to enlist the aid of a nearby settlement in breaking the siege.
Even PvE would change with a functional day/night cycle. Certain creatures or mobs possess poor night vision, this would allow adventurers to get closer to them before being spotted. The reverse is also true, Drow would actually be able to spot adventures long before they themselves are spotted. Time enough to ready an ambush.
I realize that even if the server load issue was neutralized much of what I mention above would require additional coding (time). Would the benefits outweigh the trouble of adding these mechanics? That's for the Devs, and perhaps us Crowdforgers to decide. It's definitely something that would be far down the master list of tasks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually I think you are illustrating the interesting mechanics of light/darkness perfectly. You can have your 20' radius circle (4 hex radius) of light...again not a far distance. But, it sure does highlight your position well to anyone just outside that circle.
Holy non sequitur, Batman.
You were arguing for torches as a recurring cost.I showed that for no cost at all I could make four floating torches.
Now you're saying "but that gives your position away".
As if torches don't...?
Your math is off too. A hex is about 75% of a mile, so I don't know what your "4 hex radius" bit is about.
The spell gives four lanterns that can spread out in a 10' radius. A 10' radius is a 20' diameter. Each lantern creates a 20' globe of normal light, and for 20' beyond that (a 40' globe) it raises darkness to dim light or dim light to normal. Some of those globes will overlap, so we're talking a pretty wide well-lit area. I can move those lights away from myself, group them closer together, etc. It's really versatile for a cantrip which can be recast indefinitely.
And, of course, the higher your level the bigger and brighter your light...the bigger beacon you are making. Just because you can, does not mean you should.
That is not the case. Read the spell.
Personally I think taking these things (strategies, pros and cons) into consideration would make the game much more interesting.
All the while failing to understand the point.
Option 1:
Does the client software handle lighting? If so, it's hacked in a couple days and the PKs will run around with full visibility while you bumble around with your torch. Even if you're a dwarf or otherwise have darkvision, your visual range is going to be lower that someone in broad daylight, and daylight is just how the game would look to someone with a client hacked to remove darkness effects.
Option 2:
Does the server process lighting and visibility for every player, taking into account every light source for a quarter mile around? That might work if you had a few tens or hundreds of players. GW hopes to have a few orders of magnitude more than that at some point. When that kills the servers, every character will be in the dark.
It isn't a question of what would be cool, it's a question of what's possible. This isn't a world running in your imagination alone, it also has to run on the technology available.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
Have you read my posts at all? I get that people are still discussing the night cycle in the sense of dynamic lighting effects, but I think everyone can agree that in an MMO environment that can not be done.
However that doesn't mean a meaningful night cycle with racial vision taken into account can't be accomplished to give the game more flavor. It seems you are content on just hammering home the point of "client side lighting will be hacked so no night cycle" rather than engaging in any discussion that is offering up alternatives to that which could create the same "feeling" without all the actual effects.
@ Harad Navar
I don't think even with the absence of a night cycle that the spell darkness would be affected. When in the radius of the spell your screen wouldn't render anything so you would have nothing to hack per se. And when viewed from the outside so long as the client is told not to render anything currently in the radius of the spell, again no hack should negate that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Holy non sequitur, Batman.
You were arguing for torches as a recurring cost.
I showed that for no cost at all I could make four floating torches.
Now you're saying "but that gives your position away".
As if torches don't...?...other stuff...
*laugh* I suggested the economic impacts as one benefit to meaningful darkness that is also fulfilled by your 75g light items.
What I argued, was that darkness, improved stealth, and other visibility mechanics can be done differently that on previous games. Specifically, I suggested that only the information that a PC should have access to be sent to the client...so no amount of hacking/cheating will gain access. My argument was in response to GWs position that darkness as done in other MMOs is hackable because it is all handled client-side...and if it is hackable, it is not worth doing.
You then pointed out that light is cheap and easy to get in what I assume is an argument against wasting resources developing meaningful darkness. I countered your proposal that 75g was cheap, then countered your point that even if light is easy to get (i.e. light spell) then that still does not nullify the effects of meaningful darkness (not to mention the other impacts of this implementation such as allowing "improved stealth"). And, as you point out, neither does a torch...thankfully.
As for my reference to hexes, I was responding to your quote from the PF manual, which of course defines the PF game...so I used the definition of a hex in that manual. As you can see from my initial reference a few posts up:
For those of us who use a mat, that is 5 hexes
But...hey, you win. The decision has already been made that meaningful darkness is not worth implementing. Cheers.
EDIT: Oh, and you are right, you win again...I did misread the spell, the light effect does not change as you increase levels, range does. Since I was wrong there, of course everything else I argued must be wrong too...Damn I am full of fail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Damn I am full of fail.
Have fun with your pseudo-self-deprecation.
Hexes are... hexagonal, by the way. Tabletop PFRPG tends to use squares.@Keovar
Have you read my posts at all?
Not in any detail, no. I'm going with the likelihood that those who have built and are currently building games know what is possible server-side.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar
Here is the gist of my proposal:
I think a big part of the disconnect is I'm thinking of a system that simulates "true night" in feel and mechanics without actually needing to be based 100% in lighting effects. You start by rendering everything darker than normal similar to current mmo's but you shorten the draw distance at night so that after a certain point (120ish? ft for max line of sight at night) the world feels closed in on you like it would at night (This setting would have to hard coded to take effect during the night cycle so it was separate from normal draw distnace). This drastically reduces the textures that have to be rendered by the system as an added performance bonus.
Next light sources are used when considering perception related checks that server is doing but are not real time effects, though with shorter draw distance you could probably add a bit of "spell effect" visual (again this doesn't let you see more or effect the environment much other than letting you "see" your light source much like a fireball tinting things red briefly). Either way YOU can see 120ish ft of environment that is rendered in a manner that feels like night, but YOUR CHARACTER will not be able to see every object in that 120ish ft unless the proper perception evaluations are passed. Even if I hack the render at this point the only thing effected is the environment so I gain no edge since objects are being handled outside of this. If I have a torch and normal vision then an object that is beyond the dim range of the torch should count as invisible to me and thus not be rendered at all. I would assume this would be much like how stealth would be handled in that I can see everything in the environment but the rogue hiding in the bushes is not rendered because my perception was not high enough to see him.
My other point was that you could use additional textures to further the feeling of the night by using textures with less resolution and more black during the night time phase. Again not completely so but to lessen the definition some as you would actually have when it's night. Same with the flavor of darkvision loading a generic black and white line texture for a human when I encounter one out and have no light source but can see them with my darkvison.
Basically you go a bit darker than most MMO's by default and let players adjust that to get the environment as night feeling as they want. But use light and vision as an actual mechanic to reinforce the dangers of the dark. I feel that completely ignoring the mechanical workings of the night and the opportunity to make people afraid of it would be a mistake.
I agree that it makes sense to defer to GW when it comes to what is actually possible in the UNITY engine but so far the only actual discussion has been about real world darkness like that in Legend of Grimrock or Skyrim and not about whether it is possible to find a middle ground.
As a player of several MMO's I miss the feeling I get in Pathfinder or single player video games of the danger of the night. That sort of monster under the bed feeling you get. I don't think its unreasonable to think that a system can be thought of and developed that can deliver on that feeling without needing to go to the extreme of 100% lighting effects.
Unfortunately, try as I might I can't seem to get people to stop discussing Skyrim type darkness and instead consider if there is a way to beef up the night cycle of current MMO's to get us closer to that ultimate goal.
--Pharazon
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the sounds of it darkness has been done in other MMOs. Did it work in those MMOs? If not, what about it was broken and can it be fixed now that it is 2013?
If it can be done I think it would be a lot of fun. I like scary movies though and I like the fact that there can be things hiding in the corner that you just can't simply see. Having to decide over whether you carry your shield in your off hand or a torch adds to the challenge.
Richter, it has been done, and is being done in other MMO's. However, it hasn't always been handled well. For example, DDO has darkness, from storms, night and underground, but certain spells are left off the list that would help, like any sort of non-combat Light based spell. Others, like True Seeing don't work as they do in the table top version, or even as the MMO describes it, as you don't see everything that is hidden or invisible, which is in many ways tied to light/darkness. This doesn't mean some systems are not more robust, as darkness does aid in hiding, quite a bit in fact, especially in the Underdark. The devs over there have come out with goggles that make the darkness less dark, but only underground. So there are flaws in the system if it isn't integrated properly from the start. I'd really like for the devs here to see if they can code it properly before Ryan says a final no (presuming we can convince him to revisit this issue). If it can add depth without a lot of resources being hogged for the system, then I say try it.
The fact, whenever something is being up for discussion and potentially voted upon either via those discussions or an actual vote, someone is always going to be disappointed. That's the nature of democracy, and Crowdforging is democratic in many ways based upon Ryan's own description. If light/darkness makes it in, some will hate it and some will love it. I don't think, however, that saying no just because it is potentially something that can be hacked is fair to those voicing an opinion either way, as it negates both. Anything can be hacked today, but the object for the devs should be how to make this harder, such as having systems most likely to be hacked operate only on the server side, reducing the chances (nothing will eliminate them).
I have faith if the GW devs that they can find a way to do something if the majority vote for its inclusion, while still addressing concerns of those not looking to have it. How they do so is up to them. If they can't do it for any number of reasons other than "it can be hacked", then fine I understand even a server next year or the year after will have limitations. I guess I just feel it is unfair to simply use hacking as an excuse to not try things, because, taken to its ultimate extreme, the game can be hacked, so why even make it?
No offense is intended oh course to Ryan or anyone else. I'd just like a better reason than hacking to be given for why it can't even be tested is all. In all fairness to everyone involved in this thread, it should at least be discussed among the Devs to see if it is feasible to do it on the server side, and if so, can people opt out in some manner, again on the server side. Should it prove too costly or unable to be done, then at least we know our crowdforging has been looked into and assessed . It is obvious that enough people care one way or the other to produce 7+ pages.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Alydos - I guess you're making your posts indirect to avoid flagging, but that's also obscuring whatever you're trying to say.
@Pharazon - I have never played Skyrim, but I think that's single-player and thus doesn't have the whole client/server issue nor thousands of visual fields to track. I've not even heard of Grimrock, so I'm not sure how that would or wouldn't apply.
If that limited-communication form of darkness is possible, I think GW is likely to explore it at some point. Stealth, invisibility, and other systems would be improved by it, and I'm sure they'd like to implement iconic class features and spells as much as we'd like to play with them. It may not make it into the "minimum viable product" plan, but if it's possible, it can be added later. I'm not sure what good it does to discuss the 'how' without even knowing if it's possible, though.
@Gloreindl - DDO is basically PvE only, outside of the tavern pits. Does stealth work in them?