| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What, if any, will the penalties be?
How accessible will resurrection be?
Goblin Squad Member
|
It is a while, but I'm curious about this as well, especially with how things are being laid out in other threads regarding PvP, alignment, criminal tagging, guards, group defense fast travel, etc. All that will mean very little if you walk to your gravestone and are feeling better. However, something like perma-death could alienate a lot of people.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Probably some hybrid of the tow Runnetib. I'd guess the game would probably use a similar 'resurrection' mechanic to Pathfinder, wherein your estate pays a certain value (and those without enough money and without friends who give enough of a damn with enough money are SOL) and you're back, possibly with a small reduction in skill development (the Pathfinder Online equivalent of Level Loss.)
Or something along those lines :P
And if your alts 'know' each other (or, realistically, even if they don't) maybe you can use them to spread goodwill about your dead guy/girl, in the hopes of raising enough charity to bring him back.
Or you have the option to permadeath, however, with that option, it clears up the character slot dead guy/girl was in, but you get a nice headstone/cairn/in-world burning ceremony for other people to attend if they were your friends, etc. Maybe even the option to will things to people tracked as friends of the dead character. But mostly the other stuff. With a living world, aside from the burning, which is bigger technically, the other options would not invalidate, or in gaming terms, RETCON, said character's life out of existence.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here's the thing:
It's one thing if there is world PvP that you can't avoid--you can regulate safety to a high degree, but not guarantee it.
It's one thing if there is a small (and I mean tiny) death penalty of gold. (Any kind of exp/skill loss I would find intolerable.)
To have both would be a deal breaker for me. I will not play a game where I can be ganked, robbed, AND de-leveled by other players without my consent. Nothing else about the game would make this even tolerable.
And perma-death would be an absolute deal breaker for me.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Here's the thing:
It's one thing if there is world PvP that you can't avoid--you can regulate safety to a high degree, but not guarantee it.
It's one thing if there is a small (and I mean tiny) death penalty of gold. (Any kind of exp/skill loss I would find intolerable.)
To have both would be a deal breaker for me. I will not play a game where I can be ganked, robbed, AND de-leveled by other players without my consent. Nothing else about the game would make this even tolerable.
And perma-death would be an absolute deal breaker for me.
Well honestly it being a negligible penalty for death would also turn the griefing waaay up. In WoW the death penelty was more or less negligable, the result griefers and gankers would spawn camp and kill over and over again, harrasing and preventing people from playing for hours at a time, until someone comes by and kills them, at which point they immediately go somewhere else and repeat it.
In Liniage, Eve, Pardus etc... Someone directly griefing and harrassing, would likely kill 2-3 low level players tops before a group of high level kind players, gang up on him, and repeatedly kill him until his character is so weak it is no threat to anyone.
(note also that most games with death penalties, the stronger your character, the more you lost on death, IE a level 1 character would be set back 20 minutes work, when someone hits back at the 50+ that killed the level 1 character, he loses a day's work).
Basically what I'm saying is, if nothing is lost but a negligable cost, griefers grow to enormous levels, because there is no penelty for them no matter how badly they ruin someone's day. In most PVP games with a significant death penelty. PVP deaths from random ganking can be expected once every few months at the worse. (assuming that the player takes the basic precautions for the game, (IE not entering known dangerous territory, usually anarchy grounds are known and established in these type games).
What's the difference between a player killer and a high level respawning mob?
What's the difference between a player killer and a CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character?
Goblinworks Founder
|
Here's the thing:
It's one thing if there is world PvP that you can't avoid--you can regulate safety to a high degree, but not guarantee it.
It's one thing if there is a small (and I mean tiny) death penalty of gold. (Any kind of exp/skill loss I would find intolerable.)
To have both would be a deal breaker for me. I will not play a game where I can be ganked, robbed, AND de-leveled by other players without my consent. Nothing else about the game would make this even tolerable.
And perma-death would be an absolute deal breaker for me.
I'm pretty sure those penalties would only be for those repeat offenders that consistently grief players to the point of giving themselves a debuff.
I would never be in favor of any of those penalties listed to a player that prefers low risk gameplay. Those penalties should only be for high risk players that are willing to accept the consequences of high risk gameplay.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think permadeath can be kind of a fun challenge. Maybe for only certain servers of special hardcore characters.
I've always thought it would be cool to either reincarnate a character which would be random and could come back as an animal or monster or over around as a ghost and haunt people. >;+P
"Z"
How many MMO games do you know that actually HAVE perma-death?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Back in the saddle after a long hiatus, and check my email to see this pop up.
SWEET MOTHER OF GOD. All those letters to Paizo and the multiple restraining orders they placed on me finally worked!
SRS FACE time now, but a couple of options that might work.
1) Run to your corpse. Automatic 'temporary' loss of 1 level, lost after 24 hours or the correct spell/blessing/buff is accquired from an NPC or Quest, preferably painfully expensive without cripplingly so. Anyone who has played WoW knows the pain of watching graveyard-spammers at work. Stacks with itself.
The counter to this is having friends nearby. Even if they only bandage you up, so long as you have a single hitpoint in the positive, you revive, possibly with a small, minor debuff similar to what you would recieve in the Dragon Age videogame, concussion, broken bones, ruptured spleen etc etc. You can soldier on, grab a potion or spell or run back to civilisation (allied civilisation, even!) and get it fixed up for a much cheaper cost than the first part of this option.
2) The Sanctuary Method. upon death you find yourself within a grey, misty area. Other lost souls await in this limbo, and you can communicate with them and the Sentinels of Pharasma wait by the Portals back to the mortal world. Upon choosing to return to the Mortal Plane, the Sentinels charge you with a task to complete, be it minor, major or earth-shatteringly epic. Depending upon the nature of the task and your level, this mini-quest can have a set time-limit and if you fail, well, Divine Retribution is a b&!#@, shall we say? Bad luck befalls you, the church of Pharasma gets decidedly unhappy with you and GOOD LUCK coming back the next time you die ....
You dead sukka! Role up a new character at half of whatever xp you had! :p
What's the difference between a player killer and a high level respawning mob?
What's the difference between a player killer and a CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character?
The CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character is a figment of your imagination.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The non-existence of such a character is a figment of yours.The CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character is a figment of your imagination.What's the difference between a player killer and a high level respawning mob?
What's the difference between a player killer and a CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character?
Not really, Kyrt. What is the point of creating such a character other than to justify ruining another person's time?
Or as it is also called - "For the fun of it".
I've seen your arguments on the now-closed thread and, quite frankly, they don't wash with me, so there's really no need for you to answer that one. It also became apparent to me that you know next-to-nothing about how people behave in an MMO. Inconvenience is not a deterrent... heck, banning accounts isn't much of a deterrent.
I don't care for non-consensual PvP for the same reason that I don't let a player be a jerk at a gaming session because he's playing "in character".
I give you analogy and hyberbole -
Handing out loaded guns to everyone because 1 out of 10 people will use them with responsibility is not an argument to do it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the most rational position is that death results in loss of gear (because it stays on your corpse), and the loss of stats and/or experience.
Of course in both examples, what you have lost can be regained. The gear can be regained by finding your corpse (if your gear is still there) or hunting down the PC/NPC that took it. The levels and experience can be regained by way of a large donation to your deity that increases depending on the frequency and size of your damage. To illustrate, if you have died for the 4th time today, regaining that stat will be much more expensive than if you have only died once today.
Alternately, the way the game I am currently does it is each death creates an experience deficit...so, instead of loosing what you have, you must go work off this deficit before you can gain levels in any skills. This works well.
Although, I do think official executions, if that is added, should carry the weight of permadeath. This will make criminals think twice about breaking laws in civilized lands, try their hardest to not get caught, and keep allies to break them out. It will also make execution day an exciting public event. Likewise, I am all for prison sentences (you get subdued by the authorities or bounty hunters and when you "awake" you are stuck in a cell). You are welcome to log in as that character, but for the extent of your sentence, you can only pace the cell. But, I also support being able to break people out of prison by raiding it.
|
Goblinworks Founder
|
How many MMO games do you know that actually HAVE perma-death?
None yet, but the Torchlight MMOARPG that is currently in production will.
Granted it's an ARPG but they are specifically making it more rewarding to play permadeath via the risk vs reward concept.I am in favor of permadeath as long as there is still a way to resurrect via a cleric, reincarnate via a druid or reanimate via a wizard.
Table top games are permadeath, life is permadeath, the only one that isn't pulling it's weight is the computer game.
Lets look at the possibilities:
1 - Resurrection via a high level player - no penalty, get back on the horse and continue.
2 - Reincarnate via a high level player - might come back as a kobold.
3 - Reanimate via a high level necromancer - might not be alive and breathing however.
4 - Player's body is taken to a temple - NPC priest resurrect in exchange for a fee. Fee could be experience, monetary or a "quest" spell.
5 - Player is a restless spirit - As a restless spirit you spawn in the ethereal plane near your corpse and may plea to the gods, demons or if you are close enough to a church or temple, convene with a priest to get back into your body. May come with experience or constitution penalty.
If the player cannot do any of those things then they are permanently dead. :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would support permadeath being semi-permadeath, if you have both the corpse (or some part of) of the person who is dead (which could exist in the world until the character is deleted by the player), and some single use player crafted magical item composed of extremely rare materials.
I am in favor of permadeath as long as there is still a way to resurrect via a cleric, reincarnate via a druid or reanimate via a wizard.
Table top games are permadeath, life is permadeath, the only one that isn't pulling it's weight is the computer game.Lets look at the possibilities:
1 - Resurrection via a high level player - no penalty, get back on the horse and continue.
2 - Reincarnate via a high level player - might come back as a kobold.
3 - Reanimate via a high level necromancer - might not be alive and breathing however.
4 - Player's body is taken to a temple - NPC priest resurrect in exchange for a fee. Fee could be experience, monetary or a "quest" spell.
5 - Player is a restless spirit - As a restless spirit you spawn in the ethereal plane near your corpse and may plea to the gods, demons or if you are close enough to a church or temple, convene with a priest to get back into your body. May come with experience or constitution penalty.If the player cannot do any of those things then they are permanently dead. :)
Interesting options but I would add some possible precautions that could be taken by players:
A - Rebirth in a clone prepared through spell or alchemy. Should require costly components - having more than one clone should require exceptional skills (not to mention exceptional costs). There should be even more costly possibility of creating clones for others. Also should require possession of alchemical/sorcerous laboratory capable of storing the clone.
B - Possibility of carrying magic items or divine blessing that transports the body to safe spot and returns to life.
C - skilled necromancers should have option of possessing others or reanimating own body while powerful druids/nature casters could inhabit wild animal and roam the wilds.
Also while existing as restless spirit characters could have option of venturing through realms of death and returning to life by performing certain quests there.
|
Goblinworks Founder
|
All of these options and more are covered by already existing spells.
Where do you think I got the ideas from? :)
Death will be easily recovered from because it's an MMO and harshly penalizing players for something that is going to happen is not how you appeal to a broad playerbase.
You described a themepark MMO. This isn't a themepark MMO.
Even the previous generation themepark MMOs like Everquest had harsh death penalties and everquest was the model that blizzard copied for wow.These are only my personal opinions on how I would like things to be. Telling me "that wont happen because MMO's don't do that" is pointless. I know how MMO's work, how RPGs work and how table top games work. I also know that MMO's that copy other MMO's just don't work anymore, the whole genre is stale and people are expecting far more than WOW2.0. I am more interested in a sandbox MMO that can give me a similar experience to a pen and paper game. An MMO or MOG will never be as good as a pen and paper game, but if the rules are more closely aligned to a pen and paper game, things will be far more enjoyable "for me" than the WoWs, Everquests and Rift themepark MMOs.
I have been waiting for a fantasy game that can bring me the depth of EvE Online and Pen and Paper RPGs for years now.
Survival of the Fittest :P
Not the definition, but whatever.
Games evolve. Going backwards would be silly and pointless. WoW doing away with having a significant death penalty is a quality of life improvement that doesn't deserve the axe just for the sake of "realism."
Look at the EQ model for death and why it's a failure. You die, you spawn naked with less exp, and have to go get your corpse. If you can't do that in time, you lose your stuff (a sometimes massive investment). This is a failure because it was possible to die and be unable to recover your corpse, for various reasons. It was also possible to get caught in a "death cycle," where you would die and respawn too close to danger and be killed over and over, resulting in huge losses of exp.
Now, imagine that instead of just through your own mistakes or bad luck, that other players can actively do this to you because of open PvP. This makes such penalties unacceptable.
The only discussion worth having is what way you want to have that minor penalty manifest itself.
Exactly.
Ideally, IMO, death would carry a small gold penalty, and you would have the option of respawning intact at a graveyard or at some other hearth point or major city. That would give you the option of continuing what you were doing, or avoid griefing.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Ideally, IMO, death would carry a small gold penalty, and you would have the option of respawning intact at a graveyard or at some other hearth point or major city. That would give you the option of continuing what you were doing, or avoid griefing.
A game with the lack of repercussions for poor decisions resulting in your death is not a game I would be interested in playing. In my opinion this move to ever easier, less "realistic" (and on the surface, more fun, mechanics) is exactly why there are so many people waiting around for the next best thing...and why most here are reminiscing about how great what we played 10-15 years ago was.
This is of course only my opinion, by no means will Goblinworks miss my measly $15USD/month, but the opinion is equal in what it is to yours...so I just wanted to put it on the table.
I think the most rational position is that death results in loss of gear (because it stays on your corpse), and the loss of stats and/or experience.
Of course in both examples, what you have lost can be regained. The gear can be regained by finding your corpse (if your gear is still there) or hunting down the PC/NPC that took it. The levels and experience can be regained by way of a large donation to your deity that increases depending on the frequency and size of your damage. To illustrate, if you have died for the 4th time today, regaining that stat will be much more expensive than if you have only died once today.
Your opinion is valid but that doesn't mean it's a good idea for an MMO.
Part of why I made this thread was to see if there were reasonable, more severe consequences of dying than WoW provides. So far, not in my opinion.
I had an NPC take my stuff once in EQ, prior to the bank transfer interface. It was lying on the ground in a remote building on Luclin, waiting for me to log out and switch toons. Someone came up and said "this looks like a nice backpack" and it was gone!
A GM restored it for me.
Point is, the game should not take your stuff. Which is exactly what I said to the GM, and he agreed.
Hunting down a PC that took your stuff could prove impossible. What if they flee to their secure city, where you are hated? What if they never log in again? In fact, what if people who become disgruntled with the game make a habit of suicide ganking someone and logging out forever with their stuff?
That's a game that wouldn't interest me.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Then we will just have to agree to disagree because I do not agree the environment, PC or NPC, should not be able to interact with their environment...which may include stuff you left lying around.
And, if my sword of epicness which I just left lying around was so much so that it warranted infiltrating a neighboring nation to retrieve it...that is a game I would like to play.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And, if my sword of epicness which I just left lying around was so much so that it warranted infiltrating a neighboring nation to retrieve it...that is a game I would like to play.A game you would like to play is one where you can lose your sword of epicness by misclicking and dropping it on the ground? Well, that's just special.
A game I would like to play is one where I am not defined by my gear. This said, yes...if I drop my sword why cant someone pick it, including me?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A game with the lack of repercussions for poor decisions resulting in your death is not a game I would be interested in playing. In my opinion this move to ever easier, less "realistic" (and on the surface, more fun, mechanics) is exactly why there are so many people waiting around for the next best thing...
Nope. There are not a lot of people waiting around for the next best thing because dying doesn't hurt enough in MMOs. The lack of harsh death penalties is a good thing.
and why most here are reminiscing about how great what we played 10-15 years ago was.
Rose-colored lenses and all that. The ones who actually remember what it was like and still think it's a good idea don't make up a significant enough market to make it worth alienating everyone else for their sake.
This is of course only my opinion, by no means will Goblinworks miss my measly $15USD/month, but the opinion is equal in what it is to yours...so I just wanted to put it on the table.
An opinion's worth is not a set value. There are good opinions and there are bad opinions.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
A game with the lack of repercussions for poor decisions resulting in your death is not a game I would be interested in playing. In my opinion this move to ever easier, less "realistic" (and on the surface, more fun, mechanics) is exactly why there are so many people waiting around for the next best thing...Nope. There are not a lot of people waiting around for the next best thing because dying doesn't hurt enough in MMOs. The lack of harsh death penalties is a good thing.
and why most here are reminiscing about how great what we played 10-15 years ago was.Rose-colored lenses and all that. The ones who actually remember what it was like and still think it's a good idea don't make up a significant enough market to make it worth alienating everyone else for their sake.
This is of course only my opinion, by no means will Goblinworks miss my measly $15USD/month, but the opinion is equal in what it is to yours...so I just wanted to put it on the table.An opinion's worth is not a set value. There are good opinions and there are bad opinions.
You stating something is so does not make it so. You will just have to be satisfied that others have opinions equal to yours.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Nope. There are not a lot of people waiting around for the next best thing because dying doesn't hurt enough in MMOs. The lack of harsh death penalties is a good thing.There is not a huge masochism market in MMOs, you're right.
Rose-colored lenses and all that. The ones who actually remember what it was like and still think it's a good idea don't make up a significant enough market to make it worth alienating everyone else for their sake.Well, it could also be that they're reminiscing about different parts of games they played umpteen years ago, too. UO wasn't all bad.
No, of course not. But things have moved forward, not back. I found UO enjoyable, for a time. Would I find those same things enjoyable now? Probably not. I've tasted better, and backsliding would be a disappointment (and would be a great reason to stop playing).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You stating something is so does not make it so.
You're right. It being so makes it so.
You will just have to be satisfied that others have opinions equal to yours.
This is a worrisome personal philosophy for one to have. All opinions are not created equal. Some are based on well-formed argumentation, and some are based on little more than wishful thinking.
If you don't think your opinion is better than mine, why hold it?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
What's the difference between a player killer and a CE worshipper of Our Lord in Iron who is legitimately acting in character?
They're both jerks deliberately ruining other players' fun, so I can't see a difference. They'd both be banned from my tabletop game and I can't see any reason they shouldn't be banned from an MMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
No, of course not. But things have moved forward, not back. I found UO enjoyable, for a time. Would I find those same things enjoyable now? Probably not. I've tasted better, and backsliding would be a disappointment (and would be a great reason to stop playing).There are parts of UO that are perfectly good ideas today and parts of UO that have been discarded that might be worth reexamining. Now, to bring it on topic, UO's attitudes on player death are not. Looting other players, the pain to get rezzed, insurance, all of that nonsense: all quite antiquated. Leave that in the past.
But to say UO is old so we should leave it behind entirely, that's silly, and this is coming from someone who thinks that UO was chock full of bad ideas that it only had because nobody knew better yet.
I agree completely. I was speaking both holistically, as well as specifically with regards to death penalties.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Responding to the OP:
We're early at this stage to be expecting that concrete an answer, I think, but only because of the new "We've learned not to say one thing and then change our minds" realization that Developers of MMOs have had. Communities freak out when they hear one thing, and then it gets altered. I have been guilty of freaking out over those kinds of things myself.
Still, if it were up to me, and if my vote counted, I'd say: Any hit that drops you below 0hp leaves you at -1, at which point you begin counting down. An enemy PC (because NPCs won't do it) can stand over your corpse and begin a ten second count-down. If no-one interrupts them they coup de grace you and you need to be resurrected, causing a typical 5000gp cost. But then, I want the game to be as much like pathfinder as possible.
I also think that getting killed by PCs two or more CRs above you shouldn't cost you a dime, and you should awaken at a shrine of Iomedae surrounded by paladins. Or in a bucket of swill with your gear being looted off your body if you're playing evil. Gotta stick to realism.
Most likely however? They'll cater to the 'easy game' mentality and have a temporary <5min debuff and nothing more. If that, even.
As to the expansion on this topic... CE players...
Well... CE characters are part of the game world, and I certainly hope we have some PC River Kingdom bandits to take down. I just hope systems are in place that make banditry as rewarding as stomping bandits into the mud with a full mounted brigade of silver knights. I hope they get to build dungeons, and staff monsters, and I look forward to one day raiding their dungeon and stealing everything in their poorly locked chest. In fact... Poorly locked chests should be a requisite staple of BUILDING your dungeon. There should be a poorly-locked-chest-per-dungeon-hex requirement to fulfill.
It's a legitimate playstyle. As much as playing the shining knight or the dark warlord. I enjoyed City of Villains far more than City of Heroes. But one hopes the CE Lord in Iron Follower isn't stabbing random first level guys as they come out of the introduction area. There's a difference between 'evil' and 'douche'. And if you die and respawn over and over where a high level mob spawns? Well... I hope you can report that to someone to get your carcass moved, either GM or other player.