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Warlock Remastered


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Pathfinder Warlock

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (The Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int

Level - Base --- Fort --- Ref --- Will --- Invocations --- Special
------- Attack -- Save -- Save -- Save -- Known
------- Bonus


  • +0 --------- +0 ---- +0 ---- +2 ---- 1 ---- Eldritch Blast 1d6, Invocation (Least), Arcane Armor (Light)
  • +1 ---------- +0 ---- +0 ---- +3 ---- 2 ---- Detect Magic (At Will), Wisps (Level 0)
  • +2 ---------- +1 ---- +1 ---- +3 ---- 2 ---- Eldritch Blast 2d6
  • +3 ---------- +1 ---- +1 ---- +4 ---- 3 ---- Decieve Item, Eldritch Training
  • +3 ---------- +1 ---- +1 ---- +4 ---- 3 ---- Eldritch Blast 3d6
  • +4 ---------- +2 ---- +2 ---- +5 ---- 5 ---- Invocation (Lesser)
  • +5 ---------- +2 ---- +2 ---- +5 ---- 5 ---- Eldritch Blast 4d6
  • +6/+1 ------ +2 ---- +2 ---- +6 ---- 6 ---- Eldritch Heart
  • +6/+1 ------ +3 ---- +3 ---- +6 ---- 6 ---- Eldritch Blast 5d6
  • +7/+2 ------ +3 ---- +3 ---- +7 ---- 7 ---- Dual Essence, Eldritch Power (19-20) x3
  • +8/+3 ------ +3 ---- +3 ---- +7 ---- 8 ---- Eldritch Blast 6d6, Invocation (Greater), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Arcane Armor (Medium)
  • +9/+4 ------- +4 ---- +4 ---- +8 ---- 9 ---- Wisps (Level 1)
  • +9/+4 ------- +4 ---- +4 ---- +8 ---- 9 ---- Eldritch Blast 7d6
  • +10/+5 ------ +4 ---- +4 ---- +9 ---- 10 ---- Imbue Item, Eldritch Mastery
  • +11/+6/+1 -- +5 ---- +5 ---- +9 ---- 10 ---- Eldritch Blast 8d6
  • +12/+7/+2 -- +5 ---- +5 ---- +10 ---- 12 ---- Invocation (Dark)
  • +12/+7/+2 -- +5 ---- +5 ---- +10 ---- 12 ---- Eldritch Blast 9d6
  • +13/+8/+3 -- +6 ---- +6 ---- +11 ---- 13 ---- Eldritch Soul
  • +14/+9/+4 -- +6 ---- +6 ---- +11 ---- 13 ---- Eldritch Blast 10d6
  • +15/+10/+5 - +6 ---- +6 ---- +12 ---- 14 ---- Enhanced Shape, Eldritch Power (18-20)x4

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Warlock is proficient with all simple weapons and Light armor. A Warlock is not proficient with any shields.
Invocations: You all know what this is.
Eldritch Blast: You all know what this is. Critical Range (20) x2.
Arcane Armor (Light): A Warlock ignores all Spell Failure Chance while wearing Light Armor.
Arcane Armor (Medium): A Warlock ignores all Spell Failure Chance while wearing Medium Armor.
Detect Magic: A Warlock can Detect Magic at will.
Wisps (Level 0): A Warlock chooses a number of 0-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.
Wisps (Level 1): A Warlock chooses a number of 1-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.
Deceive Item: A Warlock may take ten when using the Use Magic Device skill even if distracted or threatened.
Eldritch Training: A warlock may take Fighter exclusive feats as if they were a Fighter of equal level to their Warlock Level -4. These feats can only be taken for Eldritch Blast.
Eldritch Heart: A Warlock adds their Charisma Modifier to their final damage roll when when using Eldritch Blast.
Dual Essence: A warlock may apply two Essences to any Eldritch Blast they invoke.
Eldritch Power (19-20)x3: When using an Eldritch Blast its critical threat range and multiplier are replaced with (19-20) x3.
Eldritch Power (18-20)x4: When using an Eldritch Blast its critical threat range and multiplier are replaced with (18-20) x4.
Imbue Item: A Warlock may create any magical item even if he does not know the spell required to make the item. He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + Spell Level for Arcane and DC 25 + Spell Level for Divine) in place of the required spell. The Warlock will also need the appropriate Crafting feat to create the item. A Warlock can only use this ability to replicate spells of a caster level equal to that found on the lowest spell chart for any other class.
Eldritch Mastery: A Warlock may take 10 on any concentration skill roll in regards to casting Eldritch Blast even if the Warlock is distracted or threatened.
Eldritch Soul: A Warlock may now add their charisma modifier to each die rolled when using their Eldritch Blast.
Enhanced Shape: A Warlock doubles all the range values for all Eldritch Shapes.


the Eldritch Power Class Feature is overpowered. just let the warlok gain Improved Critical(Eldrich Blash) as a bonus feat.


Omega9999 wrote:
the Eldritch Power Class Feature is overpowered. just let the warlok gain Improved Critical(Eldrich Blash) as a bonus feat.

Can you please explain?

Just saying something is over or under powered without an explanation does nothing to help assist in fixing it.


Don't worry, it's not overpowered at all. Unless of course there is a way to further expand the critical threat (such as would be possible with a melee or ranged weapon via the Improved Critical feat or keen weapon property).


do you realise what a 4x critical means? 40d6 on a successful critical without any Saving Throw.

Andoran

Omega9999 wrote:
do you realise what a 4x critical means? 40d6 on a successful critical without any Saving Throw.

And with a 30 CHA Eldritch Soul will make that 40d6 +400


ForgottenRider wrote:
Omega9999 wrote:
do you realise what a 4x critical means? 40d6 on a successful critical without any Saving Throw.
And with a 30 CHA Eldritch Soul will make that 40d6 +400

I'm not really sure where the 400 is coming from (closer to +40) (EDIT:- ignore this obviously missed a skill, that is REALLY strong)

But yeah it's pretty high damage for a crit. That's why the only class that can get a higher crit modifier while have a high crit threat range is a level 20 fighter.

On the other hand, one thing i've never understood, can a warlock fire of one Blast for each of his iterative attacks?

If he's only shooting one a turn it might not be that bad.


Detect Magic wrote:
Don't worry, it's not overpowered at all. Unless of course there is a way to further expand the critical threat (such as would be possible with a melee or ranged weapon via the Improved Critical feat or keen weapon property).

Warlock has always been able to take the improved critical feat for eldritch blast. Said long ago by Wizards so yes.

I have never heard of weapon enhancements being added to Eldritch Blast but I suppose there could be magical items created to do so.

NeverNever wrote:


But yeah it's pretty high damage for a crit. That's why the only class that can get a higher crit modifier while have a high crit threat range is a level 20 fighter.

On the other hand, one thing i've never understood, can a warlock fire of one Blast for each of his iterative attacks?

If he's only shooting one a turn it might not be that bad.

Yes, the idea was based on that Eldritch Blast can only be fired once a turn.

Course I always wondered that since Eldritch Blast is a standard action to fire if a player could use a double standard Action in a single turn to cast two Eldritch Blasts?
But I am pretty sure that is not allowed.
As there is an epic Feat to give Warlocks a 2nd Eldritch Blast a turn.

I do know quicken Spell Like Ability Feat will give a Warlock 2 a Turn but that feat comes with limited uses.

Doesn't matter over all I believe Omega999 is correct. I should remove Eldritch Soul and replace it with something else.

I was thinking of making Eldritch Soul a Dark Invocation?

I also think I will remove the x4 modifer.
Or maybe replace Eldritch Power Completely.
I just thought I make it more critical capable since a Warlock only gets one shot a round.

PS-- Why won't it let me edit the original post?

If I can't edit it that's going to suck.


why don't you make the capstone the epic feat that allows 2 eldrich blast per round?

Eldritch Sculptor [Epic]

You control and shape your eldritch blasts like a master sculptor.

Prerequisites: One invocation from the least, lesser, greater, and dark blast shape invocation categories, Spellcraft 24 ranks.

Benefit: You can use two eldritch blasts per round as a full attack action, rather than the normal limit of one. You can apply eldritch essences to both blasts. If you possess the Lord of All Essences feat, you can imbue each blast with two eldritch essences. Activating this ability is part of the action to use an eldritch blast.

The area and range of all your eldritch blasts is doubled. Activating this ability is part of the action to use an eldritch blast. If you imbue your eldritch blast with the eldritch spear blast shape, the range increases to 500 feet. If you are using the hideous blow invocation, you no longer suffer attacks of opportunity for invoking this power in melee and all attacks of opportunity you make can include hideous blow. If you imbue your eldritch blast with the eldritch chain blast shape, you may start the chain up to 120 feet away from you and the maximum distance between each target increases to 60 feet. The area of the eldritch doom blast shape increases to 40 feet from you. The range of your eldritch cone increases to 120 feet.

You gain +2 bonus on attack rolls to hit an opponent with your eldritch blast. This is an extraordinary ability.

Normal: A warlock can use only one eldritch blast per round. Using the hideous blow blast shape provokes attacks of opportunity and cannot be used as part of an attack of opportunity.


Omega9999 wrote:

why don't you make the capstone the epic feat that allows 2 eldrich blast per round?

Eldritch Sculptor [Epic]

That feat plus quicken makes a max possible of 3 a turn.

I know of no other way of increasing it beyond this.

I think If I left Eldritch Power and removed the increased multiplier it should be fine.

With the critical feat Eldritch blast can be quite debilitating on top of its damage.

There's also the option of removing several of these class abilities and making them part of a list of options a player must choose from as the level up in warlock.

That way a player could customize their warlock more to their exact liking.

I could easily augment many of the abilities and add in some i had considered bu rejected when making this version.

That give players the options to make really unique warlocks to their express desires.


Pathfinder Warlock v2

Hit Die: d8
Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int

-- -- Level -- -- Base ----- Fort - - - Ref - - - Will - - Invocations - - Special
-- -- -- -- -- -- Attack -- -- Save - - Save - - Save - - Known
-- -- -- -- -- -- Bonus


  • 1 ------ +0 --- ---- --- +0 -- -- +0 - -- - +2 - -- - 1 -- -- Eldritch Blast 1d6, Wisps (Level 0), Invocation (Least)
  • 2 ------ +1 --- ---- --- +0 -- -- +0 - -- - +3 - -- - 2 -- -- Dark Gift
  • 3 ------ +2 --- ---- --- +1 -- -- +1 - -- - +3 - -- - 2 -- -- Eldritch Blast 2d6
  • 4 ------ +3 --- ---- --- +1 -- -- +1 - -- - +4 - -- - 3 -- -- Dark Gift 3
  • 5 ------ +3 --- ---- --- +1 -- -- +1 - -- - +4 - -- - 3 -- -- Eldritch Blast 3d6
  • 6 ------ +4 --- ---- --- +2 -- -- +2 - -- - +5 - -- - 5 -- -- Dark Gift,Invocation (Lesser)
  • 7 ------ +5 --- ---- --- +2 -- -- +2 - -- - +5 - -- - 5 -- -- Eldritch Blast 4d6
  • 8 ------ +6/+1 -- - -- +2 -- -- +2 - -- - +6 - -- - 6 -- -- Dark Gift
  • 9 ------ +6/+1 -- - -- +3 -- -- +3 - -- - +6 - -- - 6 -- -- Eldritch Blast 5d6
  • 10 ----- +7/+2 -- - -- +3 -- -- +3 - -- - +7 - -- - 7 -- -- Eldritch Mastery
  • 11 ----- +8/+3 -- - -- +3 -- -- +3 - -- - +7 - -- - 8 -- -- Eldritch Blast 6d6, Wisps (Level 1), Invocation (Greater)
  • 12 ----- +9/+4 -- - -- +4 -- -- +4 - -- - +8 - -- - 9 -- -- Dark Gift
  • 13 ----- +9/+4 -- - -- +4 -- -- +4 - -- - +8 - -- - 9 -- -- Eldritch Blast 7d6
  • 14 ----- +10/+5 - -- - +4 -- -- +4 - -- - +9 -- -- 10 -- -- Dark Gift
  • 15 ----- +11/+6/+1 -- +5 -- -- +5 - -- - +9 ---- 10 -- -- Eldritch Blast 8d6
  • 16 ----- +12/+7/+2 -- +5 -- -- +5 -- -- +10 - - 12 -- -- Dark Gift, Invocation (Dark)
  • 17 ----- +12/+7/+2 -- +5 -- -- +5 -- -- +10 - - 12 -- -- Eldritch Blast 9d6
  • 18 ----- +13/+8/+3 -- +6 -- -- +6 -- -- +11 - - 13 -- -- Dark Gift
  • 19 ----- +14/+9/+4 -- +6 -- -- +6 -- -- +11 - - 13 -- -- Eldritch Blast 10d6
  • 20 ----- +15/+10/+5 - +6 -- -- +6 -- -- +12 - - 14 -- -- Eldritch Mastery, Dark Gift

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Warlock is proficient with all simple weapons. A warlock is not proficient with any armor or shields.

Invocations: You all know what this is.

Eldritch Blast: You all know what this is. Critical Range (20) x2. Detect Magic: A Warlock can Detect Magic at will.

Wisps (Level 0): A Warlock chooses a number of 0-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.

Wisps (Level 1): A Warlock chooses a number of 1-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.

Dark Gifts: Are a list of bonus abilities a Warlock may delve into as they expand their skill in the raw arcane magics they wield.

Dark Mastery: Are Gifts of exceptional power discovered only by the most exceptional of Warlocks.

-----

Dark Gifts

Arcane Armor (Light)
Requirements: None
A Warlock gains Armor Proficiency (Light) and ignores all Spell Failure Chance while wearing Light Armor.

Arcane Armor (Medium)
Requirements: Arcane Armor (Light)
A Warlock gains Armor Proficiency (Medium) and ignores all Spell Failure Chance while wearing Medium Armor.

Arcane Armor (Heavy)
Requirements: Arcane Armor (Medium)
A Warlock gains Armor Proficiency (Heavy) and ignores all Spell Failure Chance while wearing Heavy Armor.

Eldritch Training
Requirements: Warlock level 4+
A warlock may take Fighter exclusive feats as if they were a Fight equal to their Warlock Level -4. These feats can only be taken for Eldritch Blast.

Improved Eldritch Training
Requirements: Eldritch Training
A warlock may take Fighter exclusive feats as if they were a Fight equal to their Warlock Level. These feats can only be taken for Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Heart
Requirements: None
A Warlock adds their Charisma Modifier to their final damage roll when when using Eldritch Blast.

Improved Eldritch Blast
Requirements: Eldritch Blast
A Warlock gains +1d6 to their Eldritch Blast. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Eldritch Precision
Requirements: None
Increase the critical threat range of ones Eldritch Blast by +1. This Gift can be repeatedly taken once for each degree of Invocations Known. Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark.

Eldritch Power
Requirements: None
Increase the critical damage multiplier of Eldritch Blast by +1. This Gift can be repeatedly taken once for each degree of Invocations Known. Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark.

Crushing Eldritch Blast
Requirements: Weapon Focus (Eldritch Blast), Weapon Specialization (Eldritch Blast)
A Warlocks Eldritch Blast dice increase by 1 Increment. This Gift can be taken for each Improved version of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization A Warlock acquires.

Dark Eldritch
Requirements: None
A Warlock may use their Eldritch Blast even within an anti-magic field. This requires a Concentration check using up a Warlocks Eldritch Blast to create a buffering shield against the DC of the anti-magic field. A successful Concentration check Allows a Warlock to use their Eldritch Blast normally for a number of turns equal to their Charisma Modifier or their Eldritch Blast die, which ever is less. This only allows for the Use of ones Eldritch Blast, Essences, and Shapes, not of any Invocations.

Dark Healing
Requirements: None
A Warlock may as a standard action use their Eldritch Blast to initiate a Healing Effect within them. A Warlock gains Fast Healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to the number of die in the Warlocks Eldritch Blast. Using this ability before a prior use runs out does not allow it to stack. The new use replaces the prior use. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly granting a +1 to the Fast Healing Bonus.

Dark Resilience
Requirements: None
Gain Damage Reduction 2/Iron. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly gaining +2 more damage reduction each time.

Dark Focus
Requirements: None
A Warlock may take any feat that augments Spell Like Abilities. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Dark Secret
Requirements: Ability to cast Invocations
Gain an Extra Invocation Known. Invocation can be any Invocation of a degree equal tot he Warlocks current Invocations Known. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Dark Knowledge
Requirements: None
Add all Knowledge skills to Skill List as Class Skills.

Dark Prowess
Requirements: None
Add Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, and Swim skills to Skill List as Class Skills.

Dark Instincts
Requirements: None
Add Handle Animal, Perception, Ride, Stealth, and Survival skills to Skill List as Class Skills.

Dark Skill
Requirements: None
Choose two Class skills. The Warlock may take 10 when using these skills even when distracted or threatened. A Warlock may also choose skill-like d20 class abilities like Concentration or Wild Empathy (Call of the Beast Invocation) as long as they are tied to their Warlock class and not from a different class or a feat. A Warlock may gain this Gift repeatedly each time choosing 2 more skills.

-----

Dark Mastery

Extra Dark Gift:
Requirements: None
Gain 2 Dark Gifts. A Warlock may gain this Mastery repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Eldritch Specialization
Requirements: Eldritch Training, Weapon Specialization (Eldritch Blast)
Bonus damage from Weapon Specialization is applied to each die of Eldritch Blast.

Eldritch Soul
Requirements: Eldritch Heart
A Warlock may now add their charisma modifier to each die rolled when using their Eldritch Blast.

Dual Essence
Requirements: 2 Essence of differing degrees.
A warlock may apply two Essences to any Eldritch Blast they invoke. A Warlock may gain this Mastery repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Enhanced Shape
Requirements: 2 Shapes of differing degrees.
A Warlock doubles all the range values for all Eldritch Shapes. A Warlock may gain this Mastery repeatedly. Its effects stack.

Imbue Item
Requirements: Dark Skill
A Warlock may create any magical item even if he does not know the spell required to make the item. He can substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + Spell Level for Arcane and DC 25 + Spell Level for Divine) in place of the required spell. The Warlock will also need the appropriate Crafting feat to create the item. A Warlock can only use this ability to replicate spells of a caster level equal to that found on the lowest spell chart for any other class.


Tygari said wrote:

Wisps (Level 0): A Warlock chooses a number of 0-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.

Wisps (Level 1): A Warlock chooses a number of 1-level spells from any spell list equal to the Warlocks Charisma + Invocations Known and gains these spells cast-able at will.

So . . . does this class gain additional 0 and 1st level spells as they learn new invocations? If not, just give a fixed number plus the Charisma modifier. If they do, you are giving this class a LOT of at-will utility powers (12+ 0 and 12+ 1st level spells usable at will, plus all of their invocations!). I would humbly suggest a fixed number for these powers, perhaps 2 or 3 plus Charisma modifier, or (even more radically) don't inclue the Charisma modifier at all, and just make it 4 spells they gain as part of this ability.

Master Arminas


master arminas wrote:

So . . . does this class gain additional 0 and 1st level spells as they learn new invocations? If not, just give a fixed number plus the Charisma modifier. If they do, you are giving this class a LOT of at-will utility powers (12+ 0 and 12+ 1st level spells usable at will, plus all of their invocations!). I would humbly suggest a fixed number for these powers, perhaps 2 or 3 plus Charisma modifier, or (even more radically) don't inclue the Charisma modifier at all, and just make it 4 spells they gain as part of this ability.

Master Arminas

Yes that's exactly what it means.

As a player raises their Charisma permanently they increase the number of wisps known.
As they level up and gain more invocations known they increase the number of wisps known.
Wisps 0 is a moderately strong ability during levels 1 2 and 3.
By the time Wisps 1 is unlocked this ability doesn't even concern me.
It exists simply to give warlocks a bit of diversity through the use of the weakest of spells.

Of all the abilities on this list that concern me.
This one is pretty close to the bottom.
Everyone always says warlock doesn't have enough diversity.
This is how I came up with a means to cover that.
And its not like something similar to this isn't unprecedented.
Its fine. If a DM has trouble with these abilities they really need to learn to control their group better.


Let's presume you nearly max out Charisma: start it 14, add in your level ups, get a +6 item, get a +5 tome = 30 (. So, your Warlock would have 12 invocations, plus eldritch blast, plus 22 0-level spells (I don't think there are that many, lol), plus 22 1st-level spells, all of which are usable at will. That is not 'a bit of diversity', it is brokenly insane.

Adding your Cha modifier on each d6 of eldritch blast is also FAR too strong.

You need to rethink this.

Master Arminas


The Warlock was already a very strong (not broken, as some claim, but certainly very strong) class in 3.5. This increases that power level substantially, without need or reason. The Warlock is one of those classes that needed very, very little change to update it to Pathfinder: update its skill list, maybe fix the progression of eldritch blast to be regular, and maybe give them a replacement for Imbue Item, which everyone can do in Pathfinder.


master arminas wrote:

Let's presume you nearly max out Charisma: start it 14, add in your level ups, get a +6 item, get a +5 tome = 30 (. So, your Warlock would have 12 invocations, plus eldritch blast, plus 22 0-level spells (I don't think there are that many, lol), plus 22 1st-level spells, all of which are usable at will. That is not 'a bit of diversity', it is brokenly insane.

Adding your Cha modifier on each d6 of eldritch blast is also FAR too strong.

You need to rethink this.

Master Arminas

No its not. 0 level spells can barely do anything. Like taking a Nerf gun to a fight. Having more Nerf guns isn't going to help in a real gun shoot out. If you can't handle 0 level spells as a DM and especially 0 and 1st levels spells by levels 11 you really have no reason being a DM. So far you haven't explained anything as why its broken mere stating a lot of anything automatically makes something broken. If your not going to give a proper reason and argument then don't post.

Their merely meant to give Warlock a bit of diversity most of out of battle as they will be to useless to use in battle.

Fozbek wrote:
The Warlock was already a very strong (not broken, as some claim, but certainly very strong) class in 3.5. This increases that power level substantially, without need or reason. The Warlock is one of those classes that needed very, very little change to update it to Pathfinder: update its skill list, maybe fix the progression of eldritch blast to be regular, and maybe give them a replacement for Imbue Item, which everyone can do in Pathfinder.

Great another person who claims warlock was to strong but can't give a word of evidence to back it up. Your opinions mean nothing if you can't explain why. So until you can say more then whining you don't like something please don't post. your wasting peoples time having to read such a useless post.


Tygari said wrote:

No its not. 0 level spells can barely do anything. Like taking a Nerf gun to a fight. Having more Nerf guns isn't going to help in a real gun shoot out. If you can't handle 0 level spells as a DM and especially 0 and 1st levels spells by levels 11 you really have no reason being a DM. So far you haven't explained anything as why its broken mere stating a lot of anything automatically makes something broken. If your not going to give a proper reason and argument then don't post.

Their merely meant to give Warlock a bit of diversity most of out of battle as they will be to useless to use in battle.

You are quite wrong -- and your tone is unwarrantedly hostile. You asked for an evaluation of your character, and neither Fozbek or myself or anyone else responding to this thread have give you cause to take such a hostile attitude. Ok, you want we to actually go through and tell you why this is such a bad idea?

First of all, you said any spell list. Not any arcane spell list, but any spell list. Just keeping with the Core Pathfinder Rulebook, that gives us a list of zero and 1st-level spells as follows:

0-level spells: Acid Splash; Arcane Mark; Bleed; Create Water; Dancing Lights, Daze, Detect Magic; Detect Poison; Disrupt Undead; Flare, Ghost Sound; Guidance; Know Direction; Light; Lullaby; Mage Hand; Mending; Message; Open/Close; Prestidigitation; Purify Food and Drink; Ray of Frost; Read Magic; Resistance; Stabilize; Summon Instrument; Touch of Fatigue; Virtue

1st-level Spells: Alarm; Animate Rope; Animal Messenger; Bane; Bless; Bless Water; bless weapon; Burning Hands; Calm Animals; Cause Fear; Charm Animal; Charm Person; Chill Touch; Color spray; Command; Comprehend Languages; Lesser Confusion; Cure Light Wounds; Curse Water; Deathwatch; Delay Poison; Detect Animlas or Plants; Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Detect Secret Doors; Detect Snares and Pits; Detect Undead; Disguise Self; Divine Favor; Doom; Endure Elements; Enlarge Person; Entangle; Entropic Shield; Erase; Expeditious Retreat; Faerie Fire; Feather Fall; Floating Disk; Goodberry; Grease; Hide from Animals; Hide from Undead; Hideous Laughter; Hide from Undead; Hold Portal; Hypnotism; Identify; Inflict Light Wounds; Jump; Longstrider; Mage Armor; Magic Aura; Magic Fang; Magic Missile; Magic Mouth; Magic Stone; Magic Weapon; Mount; Obscure Object; Obscuring Mist; Pass without Trace; Produce Flame; Protection from Chaoas/Evil/Good/Law; Ray of Enfeeblement; Reduce Person; Remove Fear; Resist Energy; Lesser Restoration; Sanctuary; Shield; Shield of Faith; Shillelagh; Shocking Grasp; Silent Image; Sleep; Speak with Animals; Summon Monster I; Summon Nature's Ally I; True Strike; Undetectable Alignment; Unseen Servant; Ventriloquism

Lots of things on those lists. First up, you are right. With how Pathfinder deals with cantrips, casting them at will does not matter. The sheer number your are giving your warlock, on the other hand, does matter.

On to the 1st-level spells. First of all, they can pick more 1st-level spells to use at will than a 20th-level sorceror has in zero-level cantrips. I have bolded the ones that present the largest problems. For the sake of time and my sanity, I am not going to go through the entire list of 1st-level spells that become a serious problem when they can be use at will, each round, every round. I will point out that because you said any spell list you can get several good 2nd-level cleric and sorcerer/wizard spells that paladins, rangers, and bards have as 1st-level spells. Things like lesser restoration, delay poison, and resist energy. Little things.

And this list doesn't even include the new spells that are not in the Core rulebook.

If you can't look at this list and see what the problem is going to be Tygari, I am not certain any of us here can help you.

I wash my hands of it, this thread, and you, sir.

Master Arminas


master arminas wrote:

You are quite wrong -- and your tone is unwarrantedly hostile. You asked for an evaluation of your character, and neither Fozbek or myself or anyone else responding to this thread have give you cause to take such a hostile attitude. Ok, you want we to actually go through and tell you why this is such a bad idea?

And yet here you are with a proper reply. A much better response. with a proper argumentative purpose instead of saying I don't like something cause I don't want too. Your prior post was childish and pointless. this ones good. Try to make future ones like this one.

As for a reply. I am quite aware of all that. I actually did stop to look at all the 0 and 1st level spells.

Yes in this design set up a warlock would gain more 0 and 1st level spells then a cleric, druid, sorcerer or wizard. But then I ask how many spells above 1st do they get? How many of those compare to warlock? Even if you compare similar spells from the two lists those others can cast them with much more force then a warlock can.

Warlocks aren't a replacement to cleric and druid healing and divinity nor a replacement to sorcerer and wizard arcane might. No matter what a warlock does they can't do anything as good as the others. Their more like a Bard in their respective role. They can fiddle around in various other classes but never be as good as those other classes.

This is how I see Warlock. Like comparing barbarian to fighter. Just cause both swing big weapons doesn't make them the same. they have their own way of doing things. Plus you can't forget. A warlock only gets one eldritch blast a round. This is its primary offense ability. Even if you specialize with the opens above A warlock could never hope to out damage a sorcerer or wizard or fighter or barbarian in damage. A warlock works best when it is running support. Not in healing but in filling in lost roles and for boosting roles in need of extra support for a round or two help. its not like they can cast 8 or 9 of these a turn. Spell-like abilities are one a turn. unless you have the quicken spell like ability feat. So what ever a warlock chooses they only get the one a turn.

That is the essence of the wisps ability. To allow a Warlock to better assist their party. Also don't presume just cause the ones you put bold are the ones you personally think are the best that others might not choose a different path.

As I have said, the wisps abilities don't concern me. in my honest opinion their a minor ability for diversity sake alone. I am much more concerned about some of the others.

What I am concerned about is if there's to many dark gifts. Is 8 a proper number or to many?

Are all the gifts balanced?

Some of the gifts are really strong but they fit so I tried to make them more difficult to acquire.

Did I make a proper variety to cover most aspects a Warlock might take?


Tygari wrote:
Fozbek wrote:
The Warlock was already a very strong (not broken, as some claim, but certainly very strong) class in 3.5. This increases that power level substantially, without need or reason. The Warlock is one of those classes that needed very, very little change to update it to Pathfinder: update its skill list, maybe fix the progression of eldritch blast to be regular, and maybe give them a replacement for Imbue Item, which everyone can do in Pathfinder.
Great another person who claims warlock was to strong but can't give a word of evidence to back it up. Your opinions mean nothing if you can't explain why. So until you can say more then whining you don't like something please don't post. your wasting peoples time having to read such a useless post.

Please don't lie about what I have said, especially when you quoted my entire post in the same post you lied in.

I never said that the 3.5 Warlock was too strong. In fact, I explicitly said that I did not think it was broken. I said it was very strong, which is true. 3.5 Warlocks are the best crowd control/battlefield manipulation class in the game, and they have a surprising amount of utility outside that (permanent flight and invisibility, for example).

Your update takes a class that was already good and adds an extremely high amount of power to it and directly contradicts one of the design goals of the class. The Warlock was designed as a selfish class. They can use their abilities at will, but with only a single exception I can think of (cold comfort, from Complete Mage), they can only use their buffs on themselves. Giving them dozens of first-level spells from any class takes their utility, triples it, and allows them to buff and heal others infinitely. Then you give them abilities that were Epic-level feats in 3.5 and let them take them without even spending feats. Then you give them insane damage boosts--16-20x6 (12-20x6 with Improved Critical) with +Cha per damage die is utterly absurd and broken even for a single attack per round. Considering the existence of eldritch glaive, it is beyond broken and into "you're joking, right?" territory.


Fozbek wrote:

Please don't lie about what I have said, especially when you quoted my entire post in the same post you lied in.

I never said that the 3.5 Warlock was too strong. In fact, I explicitly said that I did not think it was broken. I said it was very strong, which is true. 3.5 Warlocks are the best crowd control/battlefield manipulation class in the game, and they have a surprising amount of utility outside that (permanent flight and invisibility, for example).

Your update takes a class that was already good and adds an extremely high amount of power to it and directly contradicts one of the design goals of the class. The Warlock was designed as a selfish class. They can use their abilities at will, but with only a single exception I can think of (cold comfort, from Complete Mage), they can only use their buffs on themselves. Giving them dozens of first-level spells from any class takes their utility, triples it, and allows them to buff and heal others infinitely. Then you give them abilities that were Epic-level feats in 3.5 and let them take them without even spending feats. Then you give them insane damage boosts--16-20x6 (12-20x6 with Improved Critical) with +Cha per damage...

Another post of whining without telling how its wrong.

How?
How?
HOW?


You know, I swore I wouldn't be back in this thread. But, seriously, are you just pretending to be deliberately obtuse, Tygari? We have told you, repeatedly, what the problems are in this version of the warlock that you have made. You just keep repeating that we are whining. I will not, and cannot, tell you what to do in your own game. If you want this warlock in your campaign, then fine, use it.

Don't expect that anyone, anywhere, will let you take into their world.

And if you honestly don't understand why this is, then, sir, I feel pity for you.

Master Arminas


Tygari wrote:

Another post of whining without telling how its wrong.

How?
How?
HOW?

Please re-read my post. I did explain what was wrong. You might not like or agree with what I said, but I did explain.


Fozbek wrote:
Tygari wrote:

Another post of whining without telling how its wrong.

How?
How?
HOW?
Please re-read my post. I did explain what was wrong. You might not like or agree with what I said, but I did explain.

Calling it a selfish class only shows you hate warlock and don't wish to see its broken aspects fixed. its that ego that's most annoying. I have played warlock many times and its never been a selfish class. If warlock is selfish then so is bard and rogue. Do you ban them form your games?

Epic abilities to class are not unheard of. Wizard did it with many abilities from 3.0 to 3.5 Most of the classes had epic abilities that were later given as regular class abilities later on. Adding essence and shape modifications like that won't hurt anything and keeps it in better align with later sorcerer and wizard spells.

Originally I did think to have the improved crit and the crit range increase stack but I did realize that was over powered. Its not in the 2nd version. They do not stack there. So try reading the 2nd version.

Cha per hit dice is an ability achievable before this one for itjutsu master. It allows players to make an itjutsu roll and add cha to every bonus hit die. Itjustu master can achieve much higher dice at a much earlier level with this same bonus and wizards of the coast said that was fine when they wrote up their epic extension of the class. So its not over powered.

Nothing you have said is valid. Other classes have such abilities at a much greater degree.


master arminas wrote:

You know, I swore I wouldn't be back in this thread. But, seriously, are you just pretending to be deliberately obtuse, Tygari? We have told you, repeatedly, what the problems are in this version of the warlock that you have made. You just keep repeating that we are whining. I will not, and cannot, tell you what to do in your own game. If you want this warlock in your campaign, then fine, use it.

Don't expect that anyone, anywhere, will let you take into their world.

And if you honestly don't understand why this is, then, sir, I feel pity for you.

Master Arminas

Your prior argumentative post didn't say you were whining. It said you made a good argument that was well thought out.

Then gave a counter argument.

Just saying something is broken and nothing more is whining.

Saying something is broken and then going into in depth explanation is a disagreement and an explanation as to why.

You did really well on your post prior to this last one.


Tygari wrote:
Calling it a selfish class only shows you hate warlock and don't wish to see its broken aspects fixed.

No, actually, it shows that I know what I'm talking about. The designers of the class specifically said that it was designed to be selfish.

Quote:
If warlock is selfish then so is bard and rogue.

Rogues are a selfish class too, yes. They don't provide very much benefit directly to the rest of the party. Bards are exactly the opposite--pretty much everything they do directly benefits the rest of the party.

Quote:
Do you ban them form your games?

Who said I ban Warlocks from my games? I've played Warlocks several times, and I've never banned them when I DM. Stop making assumptions.

Quote:
Originally I did think to have the improved crit and the crit range increase stack but I did realize that was over powered. Its not in the 2nd version. They do not stack there. So try reading the 2nd version.

I did read the second version:

2nd version wrote:

Eldritch Precision

Requirements: None
Increase the critical threat range of ones Eldritch Blast by +1. This Gift can be repeatedly taken once for each degree of Invocations Known. Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark.

Eldritch Power
Requirements: None
Increase the critical damage multiplier of Eldritch Blast by +1. This Gift can be repeatedly taken once for each degree of Invocations Known. Least, Lesser, Greater, Dark.

Nothing about them not stacking. Please don't lie.

Quote:
Cha per hit dice is an ability achievable before this one for itjutsu master. It allows players to make an itjutsu roll and add cha to every bonus hit die. Itjustu master can achieve much higher dice at a much earlier level with this same bonus and wizards of the coast said that was fine when they wrote up their epic extension of the class. So its not over powered.

Iajutsu masters cannot deal +Cha per die at 500 foot range as a touch attack, 4 times a turn as a touch attack, or in an area of effect. Iajutsu damage isn't multiplied on a crit, and, IIRC, it only works once per combat. They also require more stats than just Charisma. They also don't have permanent flight, permanent invisibility, the ability to lay down walls at will, the ability to lay down black tentacles at will, or the ability to heal their party members infinitely.

The two aren't remotely comparable.

Quote:
Nothing you have said is valid. Other classes have such abilities at a much greater degree.

No other class could do as much damage as your proposed changes, and in addition to that, your Warlock has massive utility. When you're the hands-down best at one thing, you don't get to be awesome at everything else, too.


I'm putting this in a separate post, to better emphasize it:

I don't hate the Warlock class. Actually, I really like it. I play Warlocks fairly frequently (as such things go, anyway). I don't ban them, I don't call them overpowered, I don't think they're too strong, and I don't want to cripple them.

So please stop assuming that I'm out to get you or the class.


Fozbek wrote:


No, actually, it shows that I know what I'm talking about. The designers of the class specifically said that it was designed to be selfish.

Rogues are a selfish class too, yes. They don't provide very much benefit directly to the rest of the party. Bards are exactly the opposite--pretty much everything they do directly benefits the rest of the party.

Who said I ban Warlocks from my games? I've played Warlocks several times, and I've never banned them when I DM. Stop making assumptions.

I did read the second version:

Nothing about them not stacking. Please don't lie.

Iajutsu masters cannot deal +Cha per die at 500 foot range as a touch attack, 4 times a turn as a touch attack, or in an...

Wow a proper post with argumentative thoughts and explains why you disagree.

About time you did a decent post.
Hmm some of the stuff you say here makes some sense. I will have to think carefully on some of it as you may be right.


This class is slightly too much. They are right about the wisps. You are simply giving them too much. Reduce the number of spells they get.

Here's a good example of a balanced warlock:
Pathfinder Warlock


Or for a slightly different take on the Warlock concept you can try this: Master Arminas's Warlock

This version is a bit different from the one presented in Complete Arcane and mix supernatural abilities (all centered on eldritch blast) with spell-casting (to limit the potential abuse of all-day, at-will invocations). I think you will find the discussion there fairly illuminating as well.

And there are many other threads here on the Pathfinder boards which deal with this exact issue. Take a look at them and see how others are suggesting to convert the warlock; even if you don't use what they say, you will gain a better understanding what is too powerful, what is too weak, and what is just right.

Master Arminas


I find the aspect of gaining at will powers, even though I only get a few, more interesting then... another spell casting class.


Well, the Warlock still gains eldritch blast at will in my take on it; plus he gains invocations (at will supernatural abilities) that take the place of the old blast shape and eldritch essence invocations.

I just find that by using limited spells (in number of uses of per day) makes the class far better received by various players and DMs (mainly DMs).

MA


master arminas wrote:

Well, the Warlock still gains eldritch blast at will in my take on it; plus he gains invocations (at will supernatural abilities) that take the place of the old blast shape and eldritch essence invocations.

MA

Interesting. I'll take a look.


One thing I've noticed about all these homebrew Warlocks is the avoidance of utilizing pacts beyond flavor. I think that they can be better used to help make one Warlock more unique from another, similar to Sorcerer Bloodlines. You could wrap specific invocations, types of damage reduction/energy resistance, skill bonuses, special abilities and even a 20th level advanced ability into them.

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