Goblin Squad Member
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Winning, duh!
Not sure how your 'griefing', to borrow from another thread, is trying to help me. Anyway...
I actually did read through the Goblinworks website, FAQ, and everything else there before I came and found this particular sub-thread. While VR helmets or some such would be cool (a la Tom Clancy's Net Force series) I of course don't mean such. Since I have to spell it out, I don't want it to be a game where I spam 4 keys on my keyboard waiting for the cooldown to finish. Might this mean instanced combats, turn-based combats...maybe, I don't know. I do know this is possible since I've seen it before. I think the game was called Realms of Despair. It's been a while since I played it though, so I may be confusing games. Said game also had personal housing.
Playing Pathfinder means playing a character, not controlling a toon.
Playing Pathfinder means, despite the purported "Christmas Tree", I'm defined by the choices I've made, the things I've done, not my Helmet of E-Peen Hardening, or my Boots of E-Pwn Kicking.
Playing Pathfinder mean I'm a functioning part of an established world, and things I do have outcomes/consequences, not committing genocide on a pack of dire wolves so Bob the Tailor can corner the market on wolf-skin coats and wolf-fur boas (none of which anyone will actually have any access to).
Playing Pathfinder means that when I take out the Stag Lord, the Stag Lord is taken out, not is taken out for a few minutes, or until the next group starts the dungeon/instance. (I do realize this would make for an expansively large number of quests, but I think player generated quests could help with that, and for 'big' events such as these, perhaps staff can play the part(s), or players can 'apply' to run the scenario/quest on the bad-guy side. I, at least, think that would be a great addition to the game.)
Playing Pathfinder means that if there is an end game, it's me taking a nice, deserved, comfortable retirement from the adventuring life, whether as a landowner, baron, king, or hermit getting back to nature, not waiting for patches to come along with a new shade from the rainbow in tow that signifies the newest most powerful items, for which I'll have to end game endlessly to get the new set, only to have for however little time, stagnating, waiting for the vicious cycle to start all over again.
Didn't think I'd need to explain and detail that for a fellow RPG gamer, but there ya have it, at least enough that should make things clear for you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Winning, duh!
Really. How respectful of you.
Not sure how your 'griefing', to borrow from another thread, is trying to help me. Anyway...
I'm not "griefing" you. I'm trying to help you. You were wondering if this game will feel like playing Pathfinder. I'm telling that it's going to depend on what "playing Pathfinder" means to you, and asking you to outline what that is, so that I can give you an answer within the context of what we know about the game.
I actually did read through the Goblinworks website, FAQ, and everything else there before I came and found this particular sub-thread.
That's good, everyone should do that.
While VR helmets or some such would be cool (a la Tom Clancy's Net Force series) I of course don't mean such.
I didn't think that you did. I was just wondering what you did mean, since you don't like buttons or mice and VR helmets are obviously out. Doesn't leave you with a lot of remaining input options.
Since I have to spell it out, I don't want it to be a game where I spam 4 keys on my keyboard waiting for the cooldown to finish.
Er...okay.
Might this mean instanced combats, turn-based combats...maybe, I don't know.
Turn-based combats are really not an option in an MMO. And I have no idea what you mean by instanced combats. Are you talking about Final Fantasy-style combat, where you enter encounters from an overland map and fight the encounters in a little "sub-world" that contains only you and the monsters?
Also, how in the world is a turn-based combat system functionally different from a cooldown-based combat system? Other than the fact that if you have a turn-based combat system in your MMORPG no one will play your game, that is.
I do know this is possible since I've seen it before.
You've seen turn-based MMORPG combat?
Where?
I think the game was called Realms of Despair. It's been a while since I played it though, so I may be confusing games. Said game also had personal housing.
Realms of Despair is a MUD.
Playing Pathfinder means playing a character, not controlling a toon.
You're really going to need to be clearer. "Toon" is just another word for "character", and "controlling" is just another word for "playing," in this sense.
Playing Pathfinder means, despite the purported "Christmas Tree", I'm defined by the choices I've made, the things I've done, not my Helmet of E-Peen Hardening, or my Boots of E-Pwn Kicking.
In most MMORPGs, you are defined by the choices you've made. Your equipment is typically one of the least practically customizable aspects of your character; you often accumulate equipment non-deliberately (receiving random loot from a dungeon run, for instance), and that equipment is either worn or discarded based on the choices you made in advancing your character.
But, again, you're going to need to be clearer about what "choices" you're talking about. This is a lot of vague talk when you really need to start getting into specifics.
Playing Pathfinder mean I'm a functioning part of an established world, and things I do have outcomes/consequences, not committing genocide on a pack of dire wolves so Bob the Tailor can corner the market on wolf-skin coats and wolf-fur boas (none of which anyone will actually have any access to).
Ah, then you're probably in luck. The developers have promised that you will have the ability to leave an impact on the game world through your actions. Of course, this has been promised before by other dev teams, and has very rarely come to fruition. MMOs, by their very nature, don't have a lot of room for unique player contribution; chances are that if it's a good idea to do, there are going to be thousands of other players doing that exact same thing.
Playing Pathfinder means that when I take out the Stag Lord, the Stag Lord is taken out, not is taken out for a few minutes, or until the next group starts the dungeon/instance. (I do realize this would make for an expansively large number of quests, but I think player generated quests could help with that, and for 'big' events such as these, perhaps staff can play the part(s), or players can 'apply' to run the scenario/quest on the bad-guy side. I, at least, think that would be a great addition to the game.)
Unfortunately, that means that only one player (or only one handful of players) will have the experience of taking out the Stag Lord. That's rad for that player/group, but it's much less rad for everyone else. MMOs are most successful when they make their most compelling experiences reasonably accessible to much of the player base.
So unless you can figure out a way to generate a compelling Stag Lord-like enemy with some level of frequency ("frequency," here, meaning minutes or hours, not days or weeks), you're not really catering your design to a substantial portion of your customer base.
Playing Pathfinder means that if there is an end game, it's me taking a nice, deserved, comfortable retirement from the adventuring life, whether as a landowner, baron, king, or hermit getting back to nature, not waiting for patches to come along with a new shade from the rainbow in tow that signifies the newest most powerful items, for which I'll have to end game endlessly to get the new set, only to have for however little time, stagnating, waiting for the vicious cycle to start all over again.
I promise you, playing a retired former adventurer who sits around fishing all day is not going to be as exciting as you think it's going to be. Not unless the fishing mini game is really quite amazing in its own right.
You'll end up stagnating one way or the other. The only difference is that in one, you have something to look forward to. In the other, it's just fishing.
I mean, sure, maybe you'd become King, or Baron. You might be one of the handful of players who do. But for those positions to be meaningful (and in order to avoid ruining precious, precious versimilitude) they'll have to be rare. On a server with thousands of players, most of whom will presumably be aiming for the sort of retirement you're idealizing, that means a lot of fishermen.
Good thing they're called the River Kingdoms.
Didn't think I'd need to explain and detail that for a fellow RPG gamer,
Oh, I'm sure I'm not a true RPG gamer like you must be. I mean, after all, I sometimes play 4e.
In fact, I just got done playing through the Six Trials of Larazod in a Council of Thieves game earlier today. Let me tell you, I button-mashed the crap out of Dentris Maltrada's lines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stuff...
Game is/was called "The Realm Online" and you can find their website here. I guess you could liken it to Final Fantasy-style. Though, to those 'outside' your instanced combat, they see a roiling cloud with common cartoony fight symbols and limbs poking out until the combat is finished. At least that's how it was more than a decade ago when I played. Looking at their website, it appears they've really done nothing in upgrading graphics and the like. This MMO was dial-up friendly.
You may think you're helping, and in some instances, it seems like you may actually be genuine, but others you talk down from some pedestal you seem to have placed yourself on. You speak of respect, but simply act as though you're Goblinworks' personal quality control MMO master guru, and because you don't think they could make a game with some of the wishes people list, you should call down from on high with belittling comments. I don't care that you play 4e. I don't recall naming a system at all, or comparing our true gamerness levels (mine's over 9000, fyi). It seems almost like Scott Betts might have a little bit of Nethys going on, with one sentence/paragraph actually contributing, the next, yes, being that of a 'griefer'.
And I'm not asking you to 'help' me. I don't think anyone you've 'griefed' has. I'm posting wishes in the wish list thread for this game. I'm aware they might not all work. I'm aware 99% of them might not even work. However, I've come to expect great things from projects Paizo has a hand in. Just because they may, and in some cases will prove me wrong, doesn't mean I can't throw out things for them to consider, and try, and work on to prove you wrong.
A quick, and admittedly shallow, Google search for "Scott Betts" throws no ties to Paizo, Goblinworks, MMOs, RPGs, or anything related. However, if you're the owner of the facebook page about the guy from "Awesomeness, Canada" who "...is the greatest, it's actually been scientifically proven...", well then, nothing anyone says will ever be good enough, as long as you say its not.
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Look, WoW did the whole "entirely unique!" thing. They did it once. Whoever banged the gong to start off a world-changing event regarding the Qiraj or whatever got an extra special mount.
That's it. That's all it was. A cool one time server event and the person who started it gets a bug as a mount.
It destroyed servers. People went insane over it. Guilds ripped themselves to shreds. There were people going into others' business in real life. I think one or two servers held the event hostage for actual money. Not in-game gold but dollars.
When the vast majority of people think about the Qiraj event they don't think about it being cool or epic or unique. They think about the absolutely ludicrous amount of drama.
This happened in Vanilla, years ago. Blizzard hasn't done anything like it since, and for good cause.
Of course that's for a major event. What about small things like simple bandit bosses and such? Well, then you hit an even bigger problem: you're now devoting time, money, and manpower to a one-shot event that one player or one small group of players gets to experience. And that's it. That's all the bang you get for your buck. One to five players in a massively multiplayer game gets to experience something sorta cool I guess.
Do you not see the flaws in this?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well that's a relief.Oh, I'm sure I'm not a true RPG gamer like you must be. I mean, after all, I play 4e.Welll whatever that speaks about your RPG credibility is one thing, but it sure as hell does mean you're a MMO expert, Scott :)
And here I thought it was all the WoW raids that did it...
Of course that's for a major event. What about small things like simple bandit bosses and such? Well, then you hit an even bigger problem: you're now devoting time, money, and manpower to a one-shot event that one player or one small group of players gets to experience. And that's it. That's all the bang you get for your buck. One to five players in a massively multiplayer game gets to experience something sorta cool I guess.
You could generate named mobs and dialogue/quests for them from some sort of library, that way you would have things be unique but not too hard to implement.
Also, you're just jealous of my sweet black scarab mount.
Fun stuff:
Just plain exploring: I remember in the begining stages of the first Tomb Raider game, when you could just walk and explore every nook and crany of this vast cavern/dungeon area. I rewarded you for doing so by putting extra medpacks, ammo, and save crystals in those hard to reach/find places. THAT's the feeling I want to relive again.
New stuff: You've been here before, near the river at the bottom of the canyon... But for some reason, there's a cave here now. COOL!! Have random mini-dungeons pop up here and there from time to time.
Common threat: Have a colossal dragon, or something, fly overhead in a random flight pattern. The world would be so huge that the chances of even seeing it would be minimal... But when, and if, you did, everyone would scatter and hide because it has a tendancy to use it's breath weapon (massive damage) at assembled crowds of PCs.
Moving Foreward: Yeah, you can have bosses and dungeons that can 'respawn' when ou accomplish the goal of that encounter/dungeon (so others may accomplish them as well). But, once in a while, have something big happen that affects EVERYONE... A new island pops up, a volcano erupts, a massive hole apears where a famous city was thriving just yeaterday.
Just some ideas...
Ultradan
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Goblin Squad Member
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Game is/was called "The Realm Online" and you can find their website here. I guess you could liken it to Final Fantasy-style. Though, to those 'outside' your instanced combat, they see a roiling cloud with common cartoony fight symbols and limbs poking out until the combat is finished. At least that's how it was more than a decade ago when I played. Looking at their website, it appears they've really done nothing in upgrading graphics and the like. This MMO was dial-up friendly.
So it looks like the one example of a turn-based MMORPG did so poorly it was rapidly abandoned by three different companies before being bought up by a no-name publisher and left on a one-server life support system to slowly die.
Awesome.
You may think you're helping, and in some instances, it seems like you may actually be genuine, but others you talk down from some pedestal you seem to have placed yourself on.
Yes, my office chair pedestal in front of a computer. Oh, how I lord over you.
You speak of respect, but simply act as though you're Goblinworks' personal quality control MMO master guru, and because you don't think they could make a game with some of the wishes people list, you should call down from on high with belittling comments.
I haven't called anyone dumb, or stupid, or really any other personal insult. I have poked holes in ideas people have been emphatically pushing for, and a lot of people are unable to see the difference between someone arguing against their position and someone attacking them.
On the other hand, I have been the target of quite a few personal insults. Which, granted, is sort of par for the course here. I'm on quite a few forum communities, and as far as communities go this one doesn't make the Dean's list.
I don't care that you play 4e. I don't recall naming a system at all, or comparing our true gamerness levels (mine's over 9000, fyi).
That was a joke, but that's okay.
It seems almost like Scott Betts might have a little bit of Nethys going on, with one sentence/paragraph actually contributing, the next, yes, being that of a 'griefer'.
I'll go ahead and add "Had it implied that I might have a personality disorder," to that list.
And I'm not asking you to 'help' me. I don't think anyone you've 'griefed' has. I'm posting wishes in the wish list thread for this game. I'm aware they might not all work. I'm aware 99% of them might not even work. However, I've come to expect great things from projects Paizo has a hand in. Just because they may, and in some cases will prove me wrong, doesn't mean I can't throw out things for them to consider, and try, and work on to prove you wrong.
Sure. And I'm free to explain why focusing on these ideas is really unproductive when you could instead be focusing on areas of concern that might actually produce something worthwhile.
I can just imagine this sub-forum spending years arguing over whether making everyone's character anonymous is a good idea, and when the game is finally released you've all missed your chance to meaningfully influence its development.
Start talking about setting. Start talking about art direction. Start talking about skills you want to see. Start talking about geography. Start talking about what you want the most experienced characters to look like. Start talking about music. Start talking about setting up player organizations.
Start talking about anything that isn't dead on arrival because it ignores the importance of playability in favor of something else.
A quick, and admittedly shallow, Google search for "Scott Betts" throws no ties to Paizo, Goblinworks, MMOs, RPGs, or anything related. However, if you're the owner of the facebook page about the guy from "Awesomeness, Canada" who "...is the greatest, it's actually been scientifically proven...", well then, nothing anyone says will ever be good enough, as long as you say its not.
I am very not from Canada. Though, really, resorting to a Google search is veering dangerously close to obsessed-internet-stalker-land.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And here I thought it was all the WoW raids that did it...Well that's a relief.Oh, I'm sure I'm not a true RPG gamer like you must be. I mean, after all, I play 4e.Welll whatever that speaks about your RPG credibility is one thing, but it sure as hell does mean you're a MMO expert, Scott :)
Psh, since when do we defer to people's judgment based on their experience? That's not like us! I mean, in the darkness thread Ryan Dancey himself posted that it will never happen, and somehow people are still finding the courage to speak out against being able to see where you're going!
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Goblin Squad Member
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You could generate named mobs and dialogue/quests for them from some sort of library, that way you would have things be unique but not too hard to implement.
So now, in an effort to provide unique experiences to everyone, you have a random quest and mob generator handling it for you. This will get old so fast.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While VR helmets or some such would be cool (a la Tom Clancy's Net Force series) I of course don't mean such.
I didn't think that you did. I was just wondering what you did mean, since you don't like buttons or mice and VR helmets are obviously out. Doesn't leave you with a lot of remaining input options.
Dance mat?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So it looks like the one example of a turn-based MMORPG did so poorly it was rapidly abandoned by three different companies before being bought up by a no-name publisher and left on a one-server life support system to slowly die.
Awesome.
To clarify, it's the one example I know of. Dying or not, it's still got an active playerbase. Must've done something right to make it through the dial-up days.
You speak of respect, but simply act as though you're Goblinworks' personal quality control MMO master guru, and because you don't think they could make a game with some of the wishes people list, you should call down from on high with belittling comments.
I haven't called anyone dumb, or stupid, or really any other personal insult. I have poked holes in ideas people have been emphatically pushing for, and a lot of people are unable to see the difference between someone arguing against their position and someone attacking them.
To some, such a difference does not exist. You needn't use specific words to get a specific message across. And even if that's not the message you were trying to get across, it could come across as such. As seen...
I'll go ahead and add "Had it implied that I might have a personality disorder," to that list.
Don't need to have a disorder, nor does it preclude total control, to actively tone your words to one side or another. Simply saying there's two sides you portray when you post. Experience shows most people are like onions: layered.
I am very not from Canada. Though, really, resorting to a Google search is veering dangerously close to obsessed-internet-stalker-land.
Like I said, it was a shallow search. Didn't leave the first page. The point still stands: you put yourself in the position of PFO Litmus Tester. How about let Goblinworks handle that, and since you haven't yet, share with the masses your ideas/wishes. All your hole-poking must have tempered yours to be airtight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While VR helmets or some such would be cool (a la Tom Clancy's Net Force series) I of course don't mean such.I didn't think that you did. I was just wondering what you did mean, since you don't like buttons or mice and VR helmets are obviously out. Doesn't leave you with a lot of remaining input options.Dance mat?
Choreographing your own /dance?!
*EDIT*
Or some new Labyrinth inspired "Dance Magic".
Bardic Performance super-immersion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To some, such a difference does not exist.
Yeah, that's an issue. Not being able to separate criticisms of your ideas from criticisms of yourself is not good.
The point still stands: you put yourself in the position of PFO Litmus Tester. How about let Goblinworks handle that,
As I've pointed out, some people seem to really not care what the Goblinworks people say.
and since you haven't yet, share with the masses your ideas/wishes. All your hole-poking must have tempered yours to be...
Actually, a lot of my ideas have already been spoken for.
One thing that I think would be cool? Including major religions as factions (in the MMO sense) with their own independent (and, perhaps in some cases, opposing) reputation trackers. Undertaking quests/tasks/whatever for a given church would increase your rep with them and serve as sort of a descriptive indicator of who your chosen deity is (if you have more Iomedae rep than rep from any other religion, you might show up as a worshiper of Iomedae).
Also, banks play a role in most major MMOs as a place to store items not on your person. I'm sure this will end up happening anyway, but I'd love to see the church of Abadar fill this role.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While VR helmets or some such would be cool (a la Tom Clancy's Net Force series) I of course don't mean such.I didn't think that you did. I was just wondering what you did mean, since you don't like buttons or mice and VR helmets are obviously out. Doesn't leave you with a lot of remaining input options.Dance mat?
WHERE DO I PRE-ORDER
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing that I think would be cool? Including major religions as factions (in the MMO sense) with their own independent (and, perhaps in some cases, opposing) reputation trackers. Undertaking quests/tasks/whatever for a given church would increase your rep with them and serve as sort of a descriptive indicator of who your chosen deity is (if you have more Iomedae rep than rep from any other religion, you might show up as a worshiper of Iomedae).
What does showing up as a worshiper of Iomedae mean to you? (Just playing.) But seriously, what kind of things would you want to see from a religion rep? Reduced prices to rez? Extra damage against undead(Pharasma)? Better crop production(Erastil)?
Also, banks play a role in most major MMOs as a place to store items not on your person. I'm sure this will end up happening anyway, but I'd love to see the church of Abadar fill this role.
I made mention of the Bank of Abadar in a now-defunct thread a few days ago. Banks will likely exist, Golarion has the huge tie-in with Abadar, it would only fit to have such a thing.
***
This one post speaks volumes about the disparity between positions in this thread...at least to me. Fitting Pathfinder into the framework of existing MMOs while trying to hold some semblance of Pathfinder vs. using Pathfinder Online to destroy preconceived MMO standards/tropes/mores/what-have-you and create a truly unique game to rewrite the standard in fantasy MMO. I will concede your arguments, tone notwithstanding, win out on the side of practicality and easy implementation. But people are still going to wish for Goblinworks to push the envelope far beyond practicality, and they'll do that in this thread at the very least.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does showing up as a worshiper of Iomedae mean to you? (Just playing.) But seriously, what kind of things would you want to see from a religion rep? Reduced prices to rez? Extra damage against undead(Pharasma)? Better crop production(Erastil)?
First, increased rep might have titles associated with it, and perhaps abilities to go along with it (for example, and just off the top of my head, reaching one of the highest tiers of Iomedae rep might grant you the Inheritor's Crusader title - and really, how rad would it be to walk around with "Runnetib, Inheritor's Crusader" above you head? - and provide you with some kind of unique Iomedae-themed power). You might receive a discount on whatever the church sells (resurrection may or may not be a part of this, depending on how that's implemented). You might open up certain questlines with valuable rewards at the end of them ("Go bring Iomedae's justice to this group of vile heretics, crusader!"). You might be able to receive a free stat-boosting blessing whenever you visit Iomedae's church. You might gain a cool visual effect on your weapon or person. You might get a specially-skinned mount.
Essentially, a near-endless list of potential rep rewards.
But people are still going to wish for Goblinworks to push the envelope far beyond practicality, and they'll do that in this thread at the very least.
Actually, if it ended up confined to this thread, I'd be pretty okay with that. As it is currently, though, we're basically seeing this in every thread. Someone can't dive into a new design topic without having five people pile into the thread to push for versimilitude-over-playability.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Someone can't dive into a new design topic without having five people pile into the thread to push for versimilitude-over-playability.
I have not seen anyone argue for this. Every time I see you fighting someone it is because YOU don't think it would be as much fun, aka "playability" (yes, I know, you have argued it is not an opinion, rather an unsupported claim to authority about how you know what would be best for any MMOs business model). As such, I would get irritated by torches burning in an abandoned tunnel, just to provide those who want to push playability-over-believability, convenience-over-effort. Your ridiculous attack goes the other way too.
(I mean who put the torches there? are they magical everlasting torches? Wow, they must be valuable...here, let me take them to sell...what? I either cannot take them or a new one pops up in its place? Wow, I can build a castle out of my infinite supply of torch butts!)
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Goblin Squad Member
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What does showing up as a worshiper of Iomedae mean to you? (Just playing.) But seriously, what kind of things would you want to see from a religion rep? Reduced prices to rez? Extra damage against undead(Pharasma)? Better crop production(Erastil)?First, increased rep might have titles associated with it, and perhaps abilities to go along with it (for example, and just off the top of my head, reaching one of the highest tiers of Iomedae rep might grant you the Inheritor's Crusader title - and really, how rad would it be to walk around with "Runnetib, Inheritor's Crusader" above you head? - and provide you with some kind of unique Iomedae-themed power). You might receive a discount on whatever the church sells (resurrection may or may not be a part of this, depending on how that's implemented). You might open up certain questlines with valuable rewards at the end of them ("Go bring Iomedae's justice to this group of vile heretics, crusader!"). You might be able to receive a free stat-boosting blessing whenever you visit Iomedae's church. You might gain a cool visual effect on your weapon or person. You might get a specially-skinned mount.
Essentially, a near-endless list of potential rep rewards.
Desna all the way! That stuff does sound pretty nice, and I'd rather it be things along those lines, making those who gain rep with Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* do so because they want to follow Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* not because Oh, hey, if you finish the Iomedae quest line, you get a [exaggeration]+9000 Holy Avenger.[/exaggeration]
But people are still going to wish for Goblinworks to push the envelope far beyond practicality, and they'll do that in this thread at the very least.
Actually, if it ended up confined to this thread, I'd be pretty okay with that. As it is currently, though, we're basically seeing this in every thread. Someone can't dive into a new design topic without having five people pile into the thread to push for versimilitude-over-playability.
We're nothing if not passionate about our hobby.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I definitely want a faction reputation system, like Pathfinder uses for magic schools and other factions. It would be a great way to earn access to prestige classes, which I see as optional skill/power/talent trees that could be trained.
Edit: gaining rep in some factions should decrease your rep in opposing factions as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Desna all the way! That stuff does sound pretty nice, and I'd rather it be things along those lines, making those who gain rep with Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* do so because they want to follow Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* not because Oh, hey, if you finish the Iomedae quest line, you get a [exaggeration]+9000 Holy Avenger.[/exaggeration]
No matter how hard you try to set it up otherwise, rewards are going to drive achievement. That's just how people tend to work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have not seen anyone argue for this. Every time I see you fighting someone it is because YOU don't think it would be as much fun, aka "playability" (yes, I know, you have argued it is not an opinion, rather an unsupported claim to authority about how you know what would be best for any MMOs business model).
Actually, as I've already pointed out multiple times, I usually don't argue from the perspective of what I would personally find enjoyable. For instance, I would personally find it enjoyable if everyone had thematically-appropriate names. It would create a more enjoyable experience for me. But I understand that to set things up that way would reduce its accessibility and its appeal to a lot of players, so I argue against my own personal preferences for the sake of increasing the chances that the project is successful.
And, no, I've never appealed to authority, with myself as the authority (except in jest). I know precious little about MMOs compared to many of the people here. When I've argued against ideas, I have provided reasons to back those arguments up. When I've appealed to authority, it's been to the authority of the Goblinworks team, an appeal to authority that really ought to carry more weight than it apparently does.
As such, I would get irritated by torches burning in an abandoned tunnel, just to provide those who want to push playability-over-believability, convenience-over-effort.
I'm sure you would. See, you're clearly arguing from the standpoint of "What do I want?" irrespective of whether that is a good idea for the project. I'm arguing from the standpoint of what I think would be healthy for the project, irrespective of what I personally might want in the game.
(I mean who put the torches there? are they magical everlasting torches? Wow, they must be valuable...here, let me take them to sell...what? I either cannot take them or a new one pops up in its place? Wow, I can build a castle out of my infinite supply of torch butts!)
You poor thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Desna all the way! That stuff does sound pretty nice, and I'd rather it be things along those lines, making those who gain rep with Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* do so because they want to follow Iomedae/Desna/*other deity* not because Oh, hey, if you finish the Iomedae quest line, you get a [exaggeration]+9000 Holy Avenger.[/exaggeration]No matter how hard you try to set it up otherwise, rewards are going to drive achievement. That's just how people tend to work.
No, I mean I hope those rewards are in line with the ones you suggested, tying more into the aspects of the deity, leading people to go after them in conjunction with a desire to follow said deity, instead of cherry-picking a deity to follow due to some end-quest uber-weapon of ultimate smitey destruction or super-armor of DR ∞/STFU.
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Reputation and rep rewards are an awesome mechanic! I'd love to see an in-depth reputation system in which your rep must be carefully maintained.
What I would hate to see is a system in which it is not just possible to reach the highest reputation level available with every faction, but expected, as it is in some other MMOs. Choosing a faction with which to align your character should have rewards and consequences, and very few political/religious/secret society/other institutions where reputation would be an appropriate mechanic would look kindly upon someone trying to get in too awfully deep with another rival faction. I would view reputations as something wherein a Prestige Class system from the PnP game could be implemented, opening up new options for character development.
Perhaps splitting the reputation system into different sections is an option? If you choose a religion for your character, perhaps your character can gain max-level reputation gains with that organization, and lower-level reputation with that church's allies, with corresponding inverse reputations with their opposed deities. The same could be done with political institutions and crafting/merchant/business guilds?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I mean I hope those rewards are in line with the ones you suggested, tying more into the aspects of the deity, leading people to go after them in conjunction with a desire to follow said deity, instead of cherry-picking a deity to follow due to some end-quest uber-weapon of ultimate smitey destruction or super-armor of DR ∞/STFU.
And I'm saying there's no difference between the two. You have to make the rewards matter for people to find the effort worthwhile, and if you make the rewards matter then people are going to find that certain rewards support certain character archetypes better than others. As a result, no matter how thematic you make your rewards, you're going to have plenty of people choosing a religion based on the boons they'll receive from its rep.
Some people will choose Iomedae because Iomedae is rad, and they'll be pleased with the rewards they receive.
Some people will choose Iomedae because the rewards are rad, and lollorelol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you choose a religion for your character, perhaps your character can gain max-level reputation gains with that organization,
I'd argue for a descriptive (rather than prescriptive) system of religion - you don't "declare" what religion you are; you gain reputation with churches, and the church with whom you have the highest reputation is your religion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you choose a religion for your character, perhaps your character can gain max-level reputation gains with that organization,I'd argue for a descriptive (rather than prescriptive) system of religion - you don't "declare" what religion you are; you gain reputation with churches, and the church with whom you have the highest reputation is your religion.
I would agree with this, although you do start the game as an adult, so it is assumed you have been doing something previously. Therefore, I don't think it would make sense to chose your "alignment starting location".
If you choose a religion for your character, perhaps your character can gain max-level reputation gains with that organization,I'd argue for a descriptive (rather than prescriptive) system of religion - you don't "declare" what religion you are; you gain reputation with churches, and the church with whom you have the highest reputation is your religion.
Yes, I wouldn't argue against such a thing at all, I just want it to be understood that gaining reputation with certain churches will also help your reputation with their allied churches, and make your character infamous to their opposed organizations. I also do not want to see WOW-like rep grinds, where you simply spend a week or two performing certain repetitive tasks in order to max out your rep with one faction, and then move on to the next. Reputation should be fluid, and require maintenance, IMO.
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While Scott Betts can come across as grating (no offense. I can too :P), I have to agree with him. In the end, he's worried about this project succeeding. In the past, I would have taken the side of "going against the status quo," but I've come to realize that one of the reasons many projects fail is because they try to do too much. Not only is going into unfamiliar territory for the sake of exploration challenging, but it takes up a lot of resources, and that's an AWFULLY big risk for something that may not end up being successful.
I STRONGLY recommend watching the following episode of Extra Credits to illustrate my point. It's short, only about 5 minutes:
I think it's important to realize that ALL of us, no matter what our views, want this game to be:
1) Great
and
2) Successful
However, the fact of the matter is that great games aren't always successful, and of course, successful games aren't always great (/points finger at FFXIII).
Just as an example, let's use Open PvP, since it's kind of a hot-button topic 'round these parts.
I'll be totally honest. I HATE Open PvP. In fact, I'm not much of a PvP person. Yeah, when the chips are down and I feel like PvP'ing, I'm a pretty strong player because I do my best to learn how to optimize my character's abilities, but that doesn't mean I like it.
But there are people who do, and it's wrong for me to cater to my own wishes of a purely PvE game when there are people that want to go murder each other for fun and profit; so I have to compromise. However, this is a scenario easily solved by segregating PvP areas and making Open PvP optional. But what about something more impactful, like character permadeath? I mean, there really ISN'T a compromise here. You can't "half-perma-kill" someone, nor would it be feasible to have a "permadeath" server. Now, for some people, this would ruin the game. Totally. I mean, people would just quit. Heck, I wouldn't play it. But ask yourself: Are you going to quit because your character DIDN'T die permanently? Are you going to be so enraged about getting to continue playing your character that you leave? Probably not. In fact, I'd almost GUARANTEE you won't. Sure, it might be a nifty feature, but when push comes to shove, the thing that's going to be most successful, no matter your preference, is character resurrection, and, done well, this could be done without even breaking immersion.
tl;dr: /starts singing "Why can't we be friends?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I also do not want to see WOW-like rep grinds, where you simply spend a week or two performing certain repetitive tasks in order to max out your rep with one faction, and then move on to the next. Reputation should be fluid, and require maintenance, IMO.
Maybe something like this? If you can drudge your way through it of course. This type of system would also require you to interact with the PCs of the actual faction you are trying to get rep with.
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I would agree with this, although you do start the game as an adult, so it is assumed you have been doing something previously. Therefore, I don't think it would make sense to chose your "alignment starting location".If you choose a religion for your character, perhaps your character can gain max-level reputation gains with that organization,I'd argue for a descriptive (rather than prescriptive) system of religion - you don't "declare" what religion you are; you gain reputation with churches, and the church with whom you have the highest reputation is your religion.
Good point. What about allowing players to choose a religion during character creation. But, this only gives the player a slight bonus to their reputation score, if you will. While in game, the PCs action would affect their beliefs and may even counter the original bonus if the player acts in contrast to their chosen relation during character creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good point. What about allowing players to choose a religion during character creation. But, this only gives the player a slight bonus to their reputation score, if you will. While in game, the PCs action would affect their beliefs and may even counter the original bonus if the player acts in contrast to their chosen relation during character creation.
To be honest, I would like to see a short "what would your character do quiz" during character creation...and the answers to that lumps you into the community you are most like - with, as you say, just a nominal rep. Then, if you do not like it, you can go a different route, or you can play as you like and stay where you are.
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Playing Pathfinder means that when I take out the Stag Lord, the Stag Lord is taken out, not is taken out for a few minutes, or until the next group starts the dungeon/instance. (I do realize this would make for an expansively large number of quests, but I think player generated quests could help with that, and for 'big' events such as these, perhaps staff can play the part(s), or players can 'apply' to run the scenario/quest on the bad-guy side. I, at least, think that would be a great addition to the game.)
+5 THIS
I also do not want to see WOW-like rep grinds, where you simply spend a week or two performing certain repetitive tasks in order to max out your rep with one faction, and then move on to the next. Reputation should be fluid, and require maintenance, IMO.Maybe something like this? If you can drudge your way through it of course. This type of system would also require you to interact with the PCs of the actual faction you are trying to get rep with.
That certainly holds some very intriguing ideas.
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+5 THIS
Playing Pathfinder means that when I take out the Stag Lord, the Stag Lord is taken out, not is taken out for a few minutes, or until the next group starts the dungeon/instance. (I do realize this would make for an expansively large number of quests, but I think player generated quests could help with that, and for 'big' events such as these, perhaps staff can play the part(s), or players can 'apply' to run the scenario/quest on the bad-guy side. I, at least, think that would be a great addition to the game.)
See, I have to disagree with this, just because it forces players to compete against each other, further removes a sense of community, and only encourages griefing outside of direct PvP confrontation.
Goblinworks Founder
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You can't "half-perma-kill" someone, nor would it be feasible to have a "permadeath" server. Now, for some people, this would ruin the game. Totally. I mean, people would just quit. Heck, I wouldn't play it. But ask...
I just want to point out that there are MMO's currently in production that feature Permadeath as an option. One in particular is a zero PvP ARPG from a pretty well known ip. Now the context of the games are completely different, with ARPGs renown for being primarily loot collection games with highly heroic characters with the power of a 50 megaton nuke in their hands, but in this case, permadeath works. Yes, you might have a lag spike and lose everything.. but that is the option you take so you take the good with the bad.
See, I have to disagree with this, just because it forces players to compete against each other, further removes a sense of community, and only encourages griefing outside of direct PvP confrontation.+5 THIS
Playing Pathfinder means that when I take out the Stag Lord, the Stag Lord is taken out, not is taken out for a few minutes, or until the next group starts the dungeon/instance. (I do realize this would make for an expansively large number of quests, but I think player generated quests could help with that, and for 'big' events such as these, perhaps staff can play the part(s), or players can 'apply' to run the scenario/quest on the bad-guy side. I, at least, think that would be a great addition to the game.)
I am going to agree with Davor here. Any content as far as PvE encounters go should be available to any player or group of players willing to put in the time and effort to make it there, not just the first and fastest poopsockers who blow through the prerequisite content. Nobody wants to pay for a game wherein the features of that game have been "used up" or "taken" by someobody else.
If any content were to be unique, one-time events it should be player-driven and player-created content.
I, for one, hope you don't suddenly switch factions or leadership positions within them based on reputation. Neither position nor affiliation should be inherently, hard-codedly (is that a word?) determined by how much others like you.
I also hope you can join multiple factions - for example, a member of kingdom X, religion Y, and guild Z.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).
I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just informing...This is the definition of a themepark MMO, and they did say they will have some themepark elements.
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I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).
But see, what do you do if someone wants to replay your content? Isn't it one of the higher forms of compliment when someone wishes to go through your adventure/event again?
Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for a special, one-time event. But back when I played WoW, I LOVED the Scarlet Crusade dungeons. LOVED 'em. I played them well after I had outleveled them, just because they were so enjoyable. I'd hate to think someone couldn't replay the "Xaxelibrax, the Swamp Lurker" dungeon because you were only allowed to do it once. I want my finishing blow cutscene, darn it :P
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One possible solution to this would be to have a specific dungeon (or several scattered throughout the region) with miasma in it that causes those within to relive incidents of the past via instancing.
In that way, any old dungeon/quest can be replayed by whoever may want to play it, but for the purposes of the world at large once this deed is done it has been done forever.
Ya know. I REALLY like that idea.
It would allow you to have cool, worldshaking, once per server events while still allowing new players to experience it. Perhaps you could have a wise sage outside the cave, telling you of the events you could experience?
/golfclap
That's awesome.