MMO wish list


Pathfinder Online

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Its been awhile since i played any MMO, but one thing that annoyed me and eventually caused me to quit playing WOW was the PvP aspect of even a normal server. It was really annoying to be walking up to a quest giver only to have someone from the other side run up and kill the NPC. That plus many other annoyances of PvP minded people killed the enjoyment of the game for me. It was made worse by accidentally flagging yourself as PVP by doing something in the game that you might not realize would cause that.

I dont want to rant on and on about how much PVP annoys me, but basically i would like to see at least one server where PVP is disabled and not allowed. When i play games such as these i do it for the fun of it, not to prove my character is better than someone else.


Davor wrote:
Freesword wrote:


I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).

But see, what do you do if someone wants to replay your content? Isn't it one of the higher forms of compliment when someone wishes to go through your adventure/event again?

Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for a special, one-time event. But back when I played WoW, I LOVED the Scarlet Crusade dungeons. LOVED 'em. I played them well after I had outleveled them, just because they were so enjoyable. I'd hate to think someone couldn't replay the "Xaxelibrax, the Swamp Lurker" dungeon because you were only allowed to do it once. I want my finishing blow cutscene, darn it :P

An external lotteryr system that would allow "winning" players to replay an encounter? This could be structured by Goblinworks as "special events" or the like.

Silver Crusade

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I wish for awesome models that actually look different from the other races, rather than being an elf that happens to look just like a human with funny ears. I also wish for more options of changing the appearance of the character and its items (a cheap, easy to use function that allows the reskinning of items to appear as something else).


Davor wrote:
Freesword wrote:


I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).

But see, what do you do if someone wants to replay your content? Isn't it one of the higher forms of compliment when someone wishes to go through your adventure/event again?

Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for a special, one-time event. But back when I played WoW, I LOVED the Scarlet Crusade dungeons. LOVED 'em. I played them well after I had outleveled them, just because they were so enjoyable. I'd hate to think someone couldn't replay the "Xaxelibrax, the Swamp Lurker" dungeon because you were only allowed to do it once. I want my finishing blow cutscene, darn it :P

You roll another character and play through again, the character is flagged, not the account. The idea however is that there is no unique reward that is exclusive to any one character in the instance, everyone gets an equal experience and instance specific item (and possibly some random trash loot). You wouldn't be getting anything different if you do it again with the same character and there would be no rare drop that only one character gets. Again, there is a reason I call it a compromise. I do admit that there can be a certain appeal in revisiting a favorite boss battle (I'm seeing this only applied to named mobs) with a favorite character.

The goal is to give every player a chance to experience the encounter regardless of having made their account in the fist week or the fifth year, yet making that encounter a unique event in that character's story. For that character, the named boss they killed is dead and no longer exists, yet if the player creates a new character, that boss is still out there waiting to be encountered. The world is persistent, yet the characters alter it (at least from their point of view).

Silver Crusade

That sounds pretty cool.

Goblin Squad Member

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KitNyx wrote:
I would agree with this, although you do start the game as an adult, so it is assumed you have been doing something previously. Therefore, I don't think it would make sense to chose your "alignment starting location".

Most games have a tutorial experience that makes up the first couple of hours of gameplay (most MMOs included). Why not introduce factions during this tutorial, and prompt the player to choose a religion to support (via a tutorial quest, perhaps?) at the same time faction reputation is explained as a mechanic?

Goblin Squad Member

Freesword wrote:
I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord.

Star Wars: The Old Republic does this, but only with class quests (at least, as far as my beta experience informs me). You can still re-run the game's major instances (called flashpoints) as much as you want, and those instances are where you'll find the good loot.

Shadow Lodge

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Chubbs McGee wrote:
I wish for awesome models that actually look different from the other races, rather than being an elf that happens to look just like a human with funny ears. I also wish for more options of changing the appearance of the character and its items (a cheap, easy to use function that allows the reskinning of items to appear as something else).

I agree with you, Chubbs. I typically run Tiefling Wizard, Aasimar Cleric, or Dwarven Monk in Pathfinder. It would be interesting to have halos on the Aasimars, fiendish features on Tieflings, and Dwarves that can have different beard styles.

My concern is that the alternate class options may not be present (flowing monk, air elementalist wizard, arcane duelist, etc.) Implementing those would add a lot of depth to the customization of characters.

2 things I really hope for would be familiars/improved familiars for wizards, and for all the monsters/races within bestiary 1 thru 3 be available. I really like using homunculi and brownies for familiars.


Scott Betts wrote:
Star Wars: The Old Republic does this, but only with class quests (at least, as far as my beta experience informs me). You can still re-run the game's major instances (called flashpoints) as much as you want, and those instances are where you'll find the good loot.

I've only watched video of people playing SWTOR. It's one of the things I feel they really did right. It locks in the story for the character, yet they still have a persistent world to interact with as much as they want. I don't mind respawning mooks, but named mobs that are supposed to be unique should only be encountered (read as killed) by a given character once.

Actually, getting back to Davor's desire to re-fight some bosses, since resurrection is an in world possibility, perhaps have a quest that would remove the character flag for having defeated a given instanced boss so you could fight them again. Trigger them being brought back and set up a re-match as the story justification. That could work and enhance believability.


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Hedgebric wrote:
Chubbs McGee wrote:
I wish for awesome models that actually look different from the other races, rather than being an elf that happens to look just like a human with funny ears. I also wish for more options of changing the appearance of the character and its items (a cheap, easy to use function that allows the reskinning of items to appear as something else).

I agree with you, Chubbs. I typically run Tiefling Wizard, Aasimar Cleric, or Dwarven Monk in Pathfinder. It would be interesting to have halos on the Aasimars, fiendish features on Tieflings, and Dwarves that can have different beard styles.

My concern is that the alternate class options may not be present (flowing monk, air elementalist wizard, arcane duelist, etc.) Implementing those would add a lot of depth to the customization of characters.

2 things I really hope for would be familiars/improved familiars for wizards, and for all the monsters/races within bestiary 1 thru 3 be available. I really like using homunculi and brownies for familiars.

I am just asking for some clarification here, anyone can answer:

Are you asking for a pre-constructed, non-alterable class identified as a "air elemental wizard" which has been created by the developers, or, would you like be able to have a free pallet and options to choose class abilities/skills to create your own class and what you think an “air elemental wizard” should be – much like class creation in the Elder Scroll series.

I would prefer the latter. But I have no idea how this could be done.


The latter could (providing one example gleaned from various discussions on these boards with fellow speculating non-staffers) start with your magecraft skill (basic competence in Arcane skills), which then branch into your Schools of Magic or Spheres of Power (an air elemental wizard would do well with Evocation, but if Spheres are available then you might have a more simple package to grab.) After that, start filling out your secondary abilities (other schools/spheres, scroll-crafting, and whatever else you feel your Air Elemental Wizard should have.)

Shadow Lodge

I am just asking for some clarification here, anyone can answer:

Are you asking for a pre-constructed, non-alterable class identified as a "air elemental wizard" which has been created by the developers, or, would you like be able to have a free pallet and options to choose class abilities/skills to create your own class and what you think an “air elemental wizard” should be – much like class creation in the Elder Scroll series.

I would prefer the latter. But I have no idea how this could be done.

The air elementalist Wizard gets specific abilities based on the air elemental school of Wizardry. You get to cast the spell Fly at will once reaching 10th level for example. I would just like the alternate classes and wizardry schools to be available. A wish that may be tough to grant. I do still like the elder scrolls skill-based leveling though, and wouldn't mind seeing that implemented either. I was once on a game dev. team, but all I did was concept art and 3D modeling. Even so, I know some requests I have seen would be difficult... including my own.

Goblinworks Founder

Davor wrote:
Freesword wrote:


I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).

But see, what do you do if someone wants to replay your content? Isn't it one of the higher forms of compliment when someone wishes to go through your adventure/event again?

Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for a special, one-time event. But back when I played WoW, I LOVED the Scarlet Crusade dungeons. LOVED 'em. I played them well after I had outleveled them, just because they were so enjoyable. I'd hate to think someone couldn't replay the "Xaxelibrax, the Swamp Lurker" dungeon because you were only allowed to do it once. I want my finishing blow cutscene, darn it :P

I'm not sure how difficult it would be to code the random number generator, but I think this could be countered by the named boss having a random name with the same title. The Lair of the Stag Lord is cleaned up on launch day with the death of the first Stag Lord Elkhard the Horny. The next time someone enters the Lair of the Stag Lord a new Lord (determined by RNG) taken the throne by the name of Stag Queen Do'Eidier.

A dungeon cleared could be repopulated by the remaining monsters, or possibly even taken over by a new type of monster. If the real estate is empty, what is to stop a wandering monster from setting up a new lair? I would love it if players could have the option of cleaning up a lair and living in it themselves. It could be something as tiny as a hermits cave, or something as large as an old Dwarf outpost with masonry corridors and rooms.


Eh, random names for the same boss just feels hollow to me. Now if a given boss were resurrected/had a successor I could see recycling them with a whole new dungeon, but to simply have them cycle like a revolving door removes all sense of accomplishment to me.

In my personal opinion, I've provided the best solution posted here thus far (but would love to see better [or equal but different] ideas flying guys. I sure as hell am not perfect lol) I'm quoting the idea below (and one poster's response to it) for convenience.

Davor wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

One possible solution to this would be to have a specific dungeon (or several scattered throughout the region) with miasma in it that causes those within to relive incidents of the past via instancing.

In that way, any old dungeon/quest can be replayed by whoever may want to play it, but for the purposes of the world at large once this deed is done it has been done forever.

Ya know. I REALLY like that idea.

It would allow you to have cool, worldshaking, once per server events while still allowing new players to experience it. Perhaps you could have a wise sage outside the cave, telling you of the events you could experience?

/golfclap

That's awesome.

Goblin Squad Member

Elth wrote:
I'm not sure how difficult it would be to code the random number generator, but I think this could be countered by the named boss having a random name with the same title. The Lair of the Stag Lord is cleaned up on launch day with the death of the first Stag Lord Elkhard the Horny. The next time someone enters the Lair of the Stag Lord a new Lord (determined by RNG) taken the throne by the name of Stag Queen Do'Eidier.

This doesn't strike me as a particularly compelling bunch of unique experiences. It seems like the exact same experience with a few letters changed.

If this is what we get when we look for randomly-generated content, aren't we better off having purposefully build content that is actually enjoyable and compelling, and just deal with the knowledge that other people have and will have that same experience?

Goblin Squad Member

One of my wishes would to keep equipment on par with Pathfinder's table top options.

One of my major complaints about MMO Games are that equipment is full of filler items that do nothing to add to the game play experience other then force you to spend valuable gaming time studying dozens of variations of the same item that are all nearly identical. I do not want one thousand different variations of Long Swords all within a decimal point's worth of the same stats of each other. To be honest I do not want to have to deal with decimal points or fractions at all when I am looking through equipment options.

I think it would be great if Pathfinder Online had Long Swords, Masterwork Long Swords, a few different special material Masterwork Long Swords, and then about a dozen or so different types of magically enhanced Long Swords. I want a Long Sword to be a Long Sword, I do not want to have to search through thousands of different variations of Long Swords to find the Long Sword that is stated just perfect for my character's skills and or build to be effective. I do not want to have to change out my Long Sword for a Long Sword that is 1% more effective then the last one every few days just to remain effective against the monsters and other characters my character will be encountering in his next adventure.

I want equipment stats to be no more complicated then they are in the Pathfinder Table Top Game. I want upgrading from a Weapon or Armor,to the Masterwork version to be meaningful. I want the Magical Enchantments added to Weapons and Armor to be meaningful. I do not believe there needs to be a staggering amount of near identical items one must wade through to find something useful for the moment, only to see that your character's place in the game has outgrown last week's kit.

Instead of focusing on thousands of different near identical items that create near meaningless choices and time sinks for players, that Goblinworks creates a game which has thousands of different appearance options for each piece of meaningful equipment in the game.

Goblin Squad Member

JMecha wrote:
I want upgrading from a Weapon or Armor,to the Masterwork version to be meaningful.

Given how minor the difference is between a normal suit of armor and a masterwork suit of armor in Pathfinder, are you sure you want a system like what Pathfinder uses? That seems at odds with that upgrade being "meaningful."


Scott Betts wrote:
JMecha wrote:
I want upgrading from a Weapon or Armor,to the Masterwork version to be meaningful.
Given how minor the difference is between a normal suit of armor and a masterwork suit of armor in Pathfinder, are you sure you want a system like what Pathfinder uses? That seems at odds with that upgrade being "meaningful."

And the minor difference between a Masterworked Weapon and a +1 weapon in Pathfinder.

Goblin Squad Member

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Scott Betts wrote:
JMecha wrote:
I want upgrading from a Weapon or Armor,to the Masterwork version to be meaningful.
Given how minor the difference is between a normal suit of armor and a masterwork suit of armor in Pathfinder, are you sure you want a system like what Pathfinder uses? That seems at odds with that upgrade being "meaningful."
And the minor difference between a Masterworked Weapon and a +1 weapon in Pathfinder.

Right. I only called out armor specifically because getting a masterwork suit doesn't even increase your AC.

Goblin Squad Member

I am not a game designer, but I think that a +1 to hit increases your chances of hitting by 5% in most circumstances in the D20 system, which is actually a meaningful thing at the levels that most characters first acquire Masterwork Weapons and or Armor. While Masterwork Armor does not actually give a bonus to Armor Class, it does reduce the skill penalty of the armor worn by 1, which increases the chance of successfully using quite a few skills by 5%.

Regardless of what difference a +1 here or there in table top may make though, the idea that I wanted to get across in my original post was that I do not want hundreds of different Long Swords, and two hundred different variations of Studded Leather Armor, or three hundred different Tower Shields needlessly littering up the game.

I want the choice between what weapon you use or what armor you wear to be meaningful.

I want there to be a difference between using a Short Sword and using a Bastard Sword.

I want there to be a difference between a character wearing no armor, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor.

I want the choices available to us about what weapons, armor, and equipment our characters use to be meaningful.

I do not want so many Long Sword variations that are so similar to each other that a site like WoWhead or ToRHead is needed to sift through the various flotsam and jetsam.

If there exist a best sword, or best armor for a type, then players will strive to have that for their characters, all I ask is that the game not be littered with a ridiculous number of itty bitty increment difference between starting equipment and best of equipment.

Ideally I would like to see something like this....

Normal Weapon or Armor of it's type.

Masterwork version that gives an advantage over the normal version of an item.

Magical version that has advantages over the Masterwork version.

Some variations of magical options such as flaming weapons, cold weapons,keen weapons, etc

Some clean and clear simple tier system with only a handful of steps or so from Normal Kit, and High End Gear. I rather the equipment be a series of simplified meaningful steps from beginning to end, rather then a blur thousands of near identical weapons and armor that progressively increase in effectiveness by an almost nothing.

I do not want there to be filler items that need to be sifted through to get to the good stuff. I am more then willing to have larger and larger amounts of gold, crafting, community building, and what not to see the next grade of weapon and armor available so long as what comes next is worth striving for.


JMecha wrote:

I am not a game designer, but I think that a +1 to hit increases your chances of hitting by 5% in most circumstances in the D20 system, which is actually a meaningful thing at the levels that most characters first acquire Masterwork Weapons and or Armor. While Masterwork Armor does not actually give a bonus to Armor Class, it does reduce the skill penalty of the armor worn by 1, which increases the chance of successfully using quite a few skills by 5%.

Regardless of what difference a +1 here or there in table top may make though, the idea that I wanted to get across in my original post was that I do not want hundreds of different Long Swords, and two hundred different variations of Studded Leather Armor, or three hundred different Tower Shields needlessly littering up the game.

I want the choice between what weapon you use or what armor you wear to be meaningful.

I want there to be a difference between using a Short Sword and using a Bastard Sword.

I want there to be a difference between a character wearing no armor, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor.

I want the choices available to us about what weapons, armor, and equipment our characters use to be meaningful.

I do not want so many Long Sword variations that are so similar to each other that a site like WoWhead or ToRHead is needed to sift through the various flotsam and jetsam.

If there exist a best sword, or best armor for a type, then players will strive to have that for their characters, all I ask is that the game not be littered with a ridiculous number of itty bitty increment difference between starting equipment and best of equipment.

Ideally I would like to see something like this....

Normal Weapon or Armor of it's type.

Masterwork version that gives an advantage over the normal version of an item.

Magical version that has advantages over the Masterwork version.

Some variations of magical options such as flaming weapons, cold weapons,keen weapons, etc

Some clean and clear simple tier system with only a...

My opinion is at the opposite end of the spectrum from your own. I have seen what happens when there are very few equipment choices, and only one or two are considered to be the "best" mechanically.

I would vastly prefer there to be 4 dozen different but roughly equal pieces of equipment for each slot at every "level" of the game, with 4 dozen different ways of obtaining each one. This makes for variety in playtstyles and yet equal power levels across those playstyles.

Goblin Squad Member

JMecha wrote:
While Masterwork Armor does not actually give a bonus to Armor Class, it does reduce the skill penalty of the armor worn by 1, which increases the chance of successfully using quite a few skills by 5%.

It only increases those chances when the chance of success was already both non-zero and not automatic.

But, importantly, a character with a high armor check penalty can easily mitigate most of the penalty's impact by simply doing things that don't involve skills affected by the penalty.

Goblin Squad Member

We may not be so very different in what we want Moro.

I want there to be dozens of different weapon options, as well a armor options, each of which support a particular play style and require their own materials and skills for production.

I want there to be a difference between leather armor and studded leather armor, as well as a difference between bastard sword and a battle ax.

What you choose should matter, and you should have a wealth of meaningful choices available to you.

There should be a difference between a lightly armored character dual wielding daggers, and a heavily armored character running amok with a great sword, as well as a variety of other styles options and combinations.

There should be a variety in one handed swords in my opinion such as....

Short Sword because it is fast and can be used with weapon finesse.

Rapier because it has a higher crit then a short sword

long sword because it does slashing damage

bastard sword does more slashing damage but requires more training

I agree with you Moro that there need to be a variety of different options available to what a character can do with each equipment slot, that allow for a variety of effective builds.

I just do not want the choices that matter to be muddled down in mindless filler such as...

Dagger
Dagger +0.01 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.02 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.03 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.04 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.05 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.06 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.07 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.08 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.09 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.10 to some yet to be determined game mechanic

I rather the difference between the dagger and the short sword be meaningful and there be options available to make different tactics and choices effective against each other.

roughly 200 different daggers that are nearly identical to each other


JMecha wrote:

We may not be so very different in what we want Moro.

I want there to be dozens of different weapon options, as well a armor options, each of which support a particular play style and require their own materials and skills for production.

I want there to be a difference between leather armor and studded leather armor, as well as a difference between bastard sword and a battle ax.

What you choose should matter, and you should have a wealth of meaningful choices available to you.

There should be a difference between a lightly armored character dual wielding daggers, and a heavily armored character running amok with a great sword, as well as a variety of other styles options and combinations.

There should be a variety in one handed swords in my opinion such as....

Short Sword because it is fast and can be used with weapon finesse.

Rapier because it has a higher crit then a short sword

long sword because it does slashing damage

bastard sword does more slashing damage but requires more training

I agree with you Moro that there need to be a variety of different options available to what a character can do with each equipment slot, that allow for a variety of effective builds.

I just do not want the choices that matter to be muddled down in mindless filler such as...

Dagger
Dagger +0.01 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.02 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.03 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.04 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.05 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.06 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.07 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.08 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.09 to some yet to be determined game mechanic
Dagger +0.10 to some yet to be determined game mechanic

I rather the difference between the dagger and the short sword be meaningful and there be options available to make different tactics and choices...

I see what you are saying and yes, I do agree that gaining a new piece of equipment should be valuable and worth the time invested, and not something that happens so often and to such little effect that it produces yet another yawn.

Goblin Squad Member

JMecha wrote:
roughly 200 different daggers that are nearly identical to each other

Those daggers are not nearly identical to each other.

They are wildly different in both item level and focus of bonuses. As an assassination rogue, my priorities in choice of weapon are very different from those of a subtlety or combat rogue. The variety of daggers at each tier of play allows me to custom-fit my character with the array that best suits the way I've chosen to build and play my character.

I don't know why people are so set on trying to show that everything in WoW is awful and that everything should be done differently than how WoW does it.

Do you realize that it has in excess of 10 million active subscribers seven years post-release?

I'm not saying you should clone WoW. You can't beat WoW at being WoW. But I am saying that pretending that WoW has all of these awful aspects it doesn't actually have (for instance, two hundred nearly identical daggers) isn't going to make PFO a better game. It's just going to make it more likely that its design ignores the obvious good qualities that WoW introduced and (to a large extent) perfected.

Goblin Squad Member

Moro said wrote:
I see what you are saying and yes, I do agree that gaining a new piece of equipment should be valuable and worth the time invested, and not something that happens so often and to such little effect that it produces yet another yawn.

You and I somehow have managed to understand each other, and agree......we have won the internetz!


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I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me why the 'sandbox' advocates believe they're not going to log on every day and do the same thing over and over.

I also would like to know why 'themepark' advocates wouldn't want to be able to do just a little bit more than the normal grind.

To my mind, there's not much difference between 'themepark' and 'sandbox'.

Yes, I get that you can be a crafter/adventurer/guard/bandit/community leader. It will probably be nifty/new/exciting for the first 1000 log ins but eventually you have to realize you're doing the same thing. No difference between the two types. Except, of course, the term attached to it.

To my mind, there's not much difference between 'themepark' and 'sandbox'.

I see alot of threads that want to discuss how to make PFO better but they inevitably degenerate into 'IhatesWoW/Iloves[insert sandbox game]' and 'IlovesPvP/IhatesPvP' arguments.

I would prefer that we all discuss a compromise. Perhaps a Themebox or Sandpark. Then, we'd be discussing the SAME GAME.

On a side note, my general impression of the game so far from prospective players views is that we should be able to do everything from nailing a horseshoe on a hoof to micro-managing a city and everything in between.

Obviously, all of that isn't viable.

I would like to see a game with a great story (it is based on Pathfinder) and have compelling pvp.

Edit: Too late for alot of typing.

Goblin Squad Member

it may not be as important as other ideas, but i would love to see an armor/clothing dying option. i dont know how many times ive found a great wizard robe or cape that was colored a hideous shade of purple(not trying to offend fans of purple). along the same lines i would like to see a system like WoW recently added where you can add the stats of a newer item to older gear skins. i hate giving up cool looking items just because other items have better stats.

in regards to the pvp issues people seem to have, im not a fan of it myself most times but when i played WAR i couldnt get enough of it. the way they did the sieges in that game was very fun, dumping hot oil on ppl, shooting canons, and rolling out the battering rams all added to the experience. its been my experience when on pvp servers if youre getting ganked, just pop into a town and ask for help. for every ganker theres usually at least 2-3 ppl that are more than happy to counter gank.


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This "daggers" discussion does speak a little to one of the original intended questions of this thread: "What will make this game feel like Pathfinder?"

Well, daggers make Pathfinder feel like Pathfinder. Know why? Because anyone can use them and they deal 1d4 damage. If a dagger is well-made, it's 5% more likely to hit its target than if it's commonly-made and can be enchanted. It can be enchanted to be as much as 25% more likely to hit its target and to deal a fair amount of other magical damage.

If you want to kill somebody with a dagger, you have to have a skill that facilitates that: backstab or similar/related. There are no 28th level instakill megadamage field controller artifact world-destroyer daggers. The idea of an intercontinental ballistic DAGGER is ridiculous and stupid to the point of not even being amusing.

I'm comparing against the daggers table posted, not because I hate WoW, but because it provides an objective comparison. One dagger (Bachelor's Dagger, the lowest-level dagger on the table) deals, on average, 10.6 damage per second. The highest-level dagger, the Electrowing Dagger, weighs in at 743.5 damage per second. One chunk of sharpened material deals, on average, nearly 75x the damage of another similarly-sized chunk of material, and not because the wielder is any better at wielding it, but because... umm... it's better.

Imagine that same disparity at your tabletop game.

"Old Guy, we're not writing a tabletop game. Your point is tired. There are differences between tabletop games and MMOs." Yes, I know this. I understand this. I accept this as fact. However, Lisa Stevens stated on the very first page of this thread that it was her and Goblinworks' intent that the game called Pathfinder Online will "feel" like Pathfinder. It is my hope that, by demonstrating what about the MMOs on the market today have out of common from Pathfinder, we can demonstrate some means by which Goblinworks can achieve their intended goal (and, incidentally and thereby, actually entice my dollars into their MMO coffers as well as their tabletop RPG coffers).

Goblin Squad Member

That Old Guy wrote:

This "daggers" discussion does speak a little to one of the original intended questions of this thread: "What will make this game feel like Pathfinder?"

Well, daggers make Pathfinder feel like Pathfinder. Know why? Because anyone can use them and they deal 1d4 damage. If a dagger is well-made, it's 5% more likely to hit its target than if it's commonly-made and can be enchanted. It can be enchanted to be as much as 25% more likely to hit its target and to deal a fair amount of other magical damage.

I actually don't think the mechanics of a dagger will go very far towards making this game feel like the world of Pathfinder.

Quote:
If you want to kill somebody with a dagger, you have to have a skill that facilitates that: backstab or similar/related.

In the Pathfinder RPG? No, you just have to hit them a couple of times with the dagger. Unless they're really strong. Then you have to hit them more times.

Quote:
There are no 28th level instakill megadamage field controller artifact world-destroyer daggers. The idea of an intercontinental ballistic DAGGER is ridiculous and stupid to the point of not even being amusing.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

Quote:
I'm comparing against the daggers table posted, not because I hate WoW, but because it provides an objective comparison. One dagger (Bachelor's Dagger, the lowest-level dagger on the table) deals, on average, 10.6 damage per second.

Yeah, poor low-level characters.

Quote:
The highest-level dagger, the Electrowing Dagger, weighs in at 743.5 damage per second.

Yeah, that's some pretty solid DPS.

Quote:
One chunk of sharpened material deals, on average, nearly 75x the damage of another similarly-sized chunk of material, and not because the wielder is any better at wielding it,

Actually, it's impossible to use the latter dagger unless you're level 85. So, arguably, it does have something to do with how good the wielder is at wielding it.

Quote:
but because... umm... it's better.

Yes, this too.

Quote:
Imagine that same disparity at your tabletop game.

That would be weird, but this isn't a tabletop game so no worries!

Quote:
"Old Guy, we're not writing a tabletop game. Your point is tired. There are differences between tabletop games and MMOs." Yes, I know this. I understand this. I accept this as fact. However, Lisa Stevens stated on the very first page of this thread that it was her and Goblinworks' intent that the game called Pathfinder Online will "feel" like Pathfinder. It is my hope that, by demonstrating what about the MMOs on the market today have out of common from Pathfinder, we can demonstrate some means by which Goblinworks can achieve their intended goal (and, incidentally and thereby, actually entice my dollars into their MMO coffers as well as their tabletop RPG coffers).

I'm pretty sure they mean that the game will feel like the Pathfinder world. They're really not terribly concerned about preserving mechanics, nor should they be. The mechanics would translate terribly.

Goblin Squad Member

Scott Betts wrote:
One chunk of sharpened material deals, on average, nearly 75x the damage of another similarly-sized chunk of material, and not because the wielder is any better at wielding it,
Actually, it's impossible to use the latter dagger unless you're level 85. So, arguably, it does have something to do with how good the wielder is at wielding it....

Well I think what That Old Guy was getting at, is that he doesn't want the gear to dwarf the character the way it does in most MMO's. IE the way in WoW a fresh 85 in basic gear vs a level 85 in the top of the line gear, more or less is 10-20x damage. It hits a point where rather then enhancing your character, it makes your character insignificant compared to the gear.


My MMO requests -

1. Highly manipulative UI. I prefer the UI of Dungeons and Dragons Online mixed in with LOTRO's highly manipulative UI. I know some people find the DDO UI difficult at times but in reality, it is the best for character control. Where DDO falls short is how well you can manipulate the UI like you can in LOTRO. I just do not like to just push buttons and there is a result. I want to be able to roll behind someone and strike them if they do not respond in time. Or if I am faster than the PvE\PVP player, I want them to miss unless of course they roll a 20 which we all now is an auto hit.

2. Enable UI LUA support just in case we do not like the UI.

3. Auto attack feature to give my poor fingers a break.

4. Keep true to Pathfinder as much as possible. Do not implement some funky percentage rating system that you need a TI calculator to figure out if you rock or "need improvement".

5. I agree, a reasonable crafting system that does not require a horrendous amount of resource gathering, aka grinding. LOTRO drives be absolutely nuts with how much grinding you have to do to have a decent raid character.

6. Again, absolutely NO GRINDING or excessive grinding. I do not want to have to attack the Goblin Citadel of Curmudgeon 40 times to earn 200 goblin heads, seals, marks, medallions for a nice full set of armor (raid). GRRR, LOTRO! For stats, use the Character Advancement table. I do not want to grind 500 in Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha. Again, keep true to Pathfinder and OGL.

7. Have easy to get to PvP zones (more than 1) with "Yes or No" warning unless the PvP crowd has the maturity not to attack a level 1 character with your level 20 because you have no love one, no life, low self esteem, or you are just a straight up curmudgeon. And listen to you PvP crowd unlike other companies already mentioned.

8. More to follow...

~Dungeons and Dragons Online Beta Tester and Player
~Lord of the Rings Online Beta Tester and Player
~Star Wars: The Old Republic Beta Tester and future Player

Goblin Squad Member

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Onishi wrote:
it makes your character insignificant compared to the gear.

It would be my wish that Gear is never more important then the Character.

I am all for a Warrior with a full set of arms and armor being able to defeat an equally skilled warrior wearing a crusty potato sack and wielding a candle stick holder, but I do not want gear to be the more important then the character. I rather have two hundred different fighting style skill trees, each that gives particular perks and advantages towards determining what a character can do with a dagger, then having a game choke full of 200 hundred daggers, two hundred long swords, 200 hand axes, 200 short bows, 200 etc...

Scott Betts wrote:
I'm pretty sure they mean that the game will feel like the Pathfinder world. They're really not terribly concerned about preserving mechanics, nor should they be. The mechanics would translate terribly.

What they need to do to create a Pathfinder Online Game that will feel like Pathfinder Table Top is beyond my pay grade, but if they were to find away to create a rules system or game mechanic in which characters did not need to cycle through hundred of daggers to remain effective I think that would be a successful step towards the game feeling more like a Pathfinder Online and less like a majority of the MMO's out there today.

Goblin Squad Member

Anderlorn wrote:
Again, keep true to Pathfinder and OGL.

Pathfinder Online will not be making use of the OGL. You're going to have to live with a different set of rules.


Scott Betts wrote:
Anderlorn wrote:
Again, keep true to Pathfinder and OGL.
Pathfinder Online will not be making use of the OGL. You're going to have to live with a different set of rules.

Yeah, I was in a hurry. Stay as true as possible, rules in LOTRO are irritating to follow especially when it comes down to Legacy Magical Items. This is what I mean by staying true. Easier to follow rules instead of some weird percentages or something you have no idea what it does.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ok, here is my wish list:
.
.
.

1. Graphics
---> Borderlands style
My current multiplyer coop game of choice because of the awesome immersion it offers. A big part of is hold the graphics in this game. When I first saw it I was instantly remembered of Pathfinders fantastic illustrations.
---> Good clipping range
Seeing a good part of the world is great for spectacular views. So if offered the choice of doing very minute details or allow a far ranging view I would like the latter.

2. Items
---> Mix and match before sets
Set items are boring when they offer the best bang for the buck. Combining different items with drawbacks and strengths is much more interesting.
---> versatile look
Please try to let not everyone look like anyone else. At least allow the dying of armor and allow heraldry (with simple well recognizable symbols) prominently on cloaks. This allows easy identification of clans/guilds and works wonder for immersion.

3. Spells (and abilities)
---> versatile Spells
One of the trademark of Pthfinder P&P is the versatility offered by it's spells. It would be nice if some of this could be transported to PFO. Try to code into your game the necessity to do something more than DD, CC, Heal, Buff and Teleport.
---> teamwork Spells
Let the spells of different classes have some synergy if used together.
---> tactical Spells
Please don't make instant Spells the end all be all of your game. Let the caster actually cast and thus be less mobile and more vulnerable in close combat.
---> few but meaningful CC
CC is what offers a smaller group a chance against a zerg. Thus I find it very necessary to have strong CC in the game, but there should be usage- & immunity-timers and few abilities of this sort so that the battlefield isn't swamped in CC (or at least that swamping isn't effective). Consider putting CC only on classes that are not top damage dealers.

4. Zones/Instancing
---> large Zones with a believeable and meaningful Nature
In todays themepark MMOs zones are only large enough to not need to stack questtargets and instances right on top of each other. It doesn't feel like a world and is usually bypassed without a second glance. There is never high grass/trees that limits vision somewhat and also never a stream thats hard to cross.
---> few Instances
The more instances a game has the more it feels less than a world and more than a themepark. Instances also further a fraction of the community as I never need to meet more people than I need to group with.

5. Group play
---> grouping should be promoted and it should be easy
Solo content is nice but a MMO should be about interacting with people. So make grouping much more profitable than simple solo grinding. Also it would be nice to have groups that can be as large as I want (up to, say, 16 or even 32) and thus minimize the chance of "sorry, group is full".
---> grouping should be possible for anyone with anyone
[ooc]make it possible that a newer char with low skills can contribute meaningfully in a group with higher skilled players, at least in PvE.

6. Mobs
---> versatile mobs
One of the fundamental principles of Pathfinder are PC rules = mob rules. Carry this over to some extend to PFO. There should be healing mobs, buffing mobs and so on.
---> good AI
Have mobs behave "cleverly". In most MMOs mobs just stand there and hit you adn thats it. Tactics only come into it when there is a scripted boss.
---> variable behavior especially of bosses
Let scripted behavior not be the main part of any boss fight but let the bosses use their AI to use their abilities in a variable way. If that means that sometimes the boss uses a perfect combo that wipes the party no matter what they do then this would be an acceptable price for such an awesome feature.

Thanks for reading.

Goblin Squad Member

Print out Micman's post and poster it around the office :)


MMO wish list (continue)

8. Take WoW player suggestions but do not make another WoW like game in the image of Pathfinder. WoW players have good suggestions and sometimes they do not and I have seen some of their suggestions ruin a game or ruin a feature.

9. Given above, listen to all of your Fan Base. This is what probably has hurt LOTRO the most, developers doing their own thing (ahem Orion), not listening to players, giving into the 10% no lifers, the 10% A-types, and do not implement every suggestion given by a WoW player. Remember, your Pathfinder fans as well.

10. Equal solo and group play. All group play is stereotypical DnD but I will tell you NOW, it will RUIN Pathfinder Online unless you are planning to have live GMs which of course would be something the other MMOs never or rarely do. I do not always want to group up because sometimes I am in a testy mood and want to be a hermit. All or mostly group play hurt DDO immensely. They have fixed it a little but it is still seriously lacking compared to LOTRO and SWTOR.

11. Given 8-10, UNIQUENESS beyond just a successful role out of an old school DnD-based online game, do something else that other MMOs have not done or been successful at. Live GMs once a month or something would be unique. Yeah, it is probably extremely difficult but it is definitely unique.

12. There have been a lot of complaints of graphics lately, so this is something to focus on.

13. More to follow in my dissertation.


MicMan wrote:


1. Graphics
---> Borderlands style
My current multiplyer coop game of choice because of the awesome immersion it offers. A big part of is hold the graphics in this game. When I first saw it I was instantly remembered of Pathfinders fantastic illustrations.

Agreed, there have been a lot of complaints regarding current and MMO currently in beta testing.

MicMan wrote:


---> Good clipping range
Seeing a good part of the world is great for spectacular views. So if offered the choice of doing very minute details or allow a far ranging view I would like the latter.

In addition, make it feel large but try to keep travel reasonable. Do not make travel reputation based like certain locations in LOTRO.

MicMan wrote:


2. Items
---> Mix and match before sets
Set items are boring when they offer the best bang for the buck. Combining different items with drawbacks and strengths is much more interesting.
---> versatile look
Please try to let not everyone look like anyone else. At least allow the dying of armor and allow heraldry (with simple well recognizable symbols) prominently on cloaks. This allows easy identification of clans/guilds and works wonder for immersion.

a. Agreed and make them customizable

b. From experience, initial release of an MMO, the players almost look the same. This would definitely be unique if Goblinworks allows us to be unique from the get go no matter what armor or clothing we are wearing. In addition, a highly customizable character creation. Both LOTRO and SWTOR did or do not offer this in their initial release.

MicMan wrote:


3. Spells (and abilities)
---> versatile Spells
One of the trademark of Pthfinder P&P is the versatility offered by it's spells. It would be nice if some of this could be transported to PFO. Try to code into your game the necessity to do something more than DD, CC, Heal, Buff and Teleport.
---> teamwork Spells
Let the spells of different classes have some synergy if used together.
---> tactical Spells
Please don't make instant Spells the end all be all of your game. Let the caster actually cast and thus be less mobile and more vulnerable in close combat.
---> few but meaningful CC
CC is what offers a smaller group a chance against a zerg. Thus I find it very necessary to have strong CC in the game, but there should be usage- & immunity-timers and few abilities of this sort so that the battlefield isn't swamped in CC (or at least that swamping isn't effective). Consider putting CC only on classes that are not top damage dealers.

a) Exact or near exact PF spells would be preferable. In fact, a duplication of the current PF spell system would be ideal.

b) Not sure if synergy is that important but I have an open mind to see.
c) Again, a complete copy of the current PF spell system would be the best or something that resembles it any way. This include feats to improve mobile casting and concentration.
d) In addition, if you are going to have PvP, equal CC and CC avoidance on both sides. Ahem, LOTRO PvP does not.

Goblin Squad Member

MicMan wrote:

1. Graphics

---> Borderlands style

Agreed, or something similar.

Quote:
---> Good clipping range

This is called "draw distance," and is often put on a user-adjusted slider that allows you to select a draw distance based on the performance of your computer. If you typically find yourself unable to see beyond the next hill in video games, my first suggestion would be to get yourself a decent graphics card.

Quote:

---> variable behavior especially of bosses

Let scripted behavior not be the main part of any boss fight but let the bosses use their AI to use their abilities in a variable way. If that means that sometimes the boss uses a perfect combo that wipes the party no matter what they do then this would be an acceptable price for such an awesome feature.

I think probably that's not an acceptable price.


Freesword wrote:
Davor wrote:
Freesword wrote:


I have to say I agree with both sides and prefer the compromise of instanced encounters. Your character can kill the Stag Lord once. This sets a flag on that character and they will no longer be able to enter that instance for the Stag Lord. To do this however, drops would have to be guaranteed to every party member (the quasi-unique "I beat the Stag Lord" t-shirt which is unique only in that can only get one by beating the Stag Lord).

But see, what do you do if someone wants to replay your content? Isn't it one of the higher forms of compliment when someone wishes to go through your adventure/event again?

Don't get me wrong, there is something to be said for a special, one-time event. But back when I played WoW, I LOVED the Scarlet Crusade dungeons. LOVED 'em. I played them well after I had outleveled them, just because they were so enjoyable. I'd hate to think someone couldn't replay the "Xaxelibrax, the Swamp Lurker" dungeon because you were only allowed to do it once. I want my finishing blow cutscene, darn it :P

You roll another character and play through again, the character is flagged, not the account. The idea however is that there is no unique reward that is exclusive to any one character in the instance, everyone gets an equal experience and instance specific item (and possibly some random trash loot). You wouldn't be getting anything different if you do it again with the same character and there would be no rare drop that only one character gets. Again, there is a reason I call it a compromise. I do admit that there can be a certain appeal in revisiting a favorite boss battle (I'm seeing this only applied to named mobs) with a favorite character.

The goal is to give every player a chance to experience the encounter regardless of having made their account in the fist week or the fifth year, yet making that encounter a unique event in that character's story. For that character, the named boss they killed is dead and no...

The potential problem with this is, what happens if I've beaten the content and then my friend wants to group with me and he hasn't done the Stag Lord quest line. It is no longer available to me.

With MMOs, you need to consider replayability. Sure, you can replay the Stag Lord quest on a new character, but server space is not infinite and character slots aren't either.


MMOs and PnP do not translate to one another perfectly. So you have to make some considerations. You can't just copy/paste the same spell system, combat mechanics, crafting system from PnP to MMO.

One thing I'd like to see is more dynamic content. Dynamic content in MMOs isn't really that dynamic.

What I would like to see is more randomization. One game series that does this well is Diablo (from Blizzard, yeah, I know). I just like how everytime you load a new game, the dungeons are re-created and the layout is different each time. It is also populated with different types of monsters each time (aside from the main boss).

I'd like to see more of this in an MMO setting. If we are going to instance dungeons (which I am a fan of personally), let it be random each time you enter, so you never know what to expect.

Make the game solo friendly as well as group oriented.


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First post here guys and gals, be gentle and sorry for my language. I'm not a native user of english :P
Cheetah MMO-wish list.

1: Customization.
Yeah. I love customization of all kinds. Customizing that sword I'm crafting? Sure! Customizing my character appearance? Hell yeah for that! Customizing the house I've built for myself? Of course. Customizing my mount, heraldry, UI and a lot of different things? Yep:>

2: Risk&Reward.
I always loved games which were kinda punishing you for doing stupid stuff. I'm not talking about making PFO so hardcore that you can lose everything because some jerk wanted to troll you. More like different consequences to your choices. Maybe full loot system is too kind for griefers, but detoriation and "random item + gold drop" on death? Or something like Insurance in Ultima Online, but cheaper. Anyway I don't like to see another game "Hey, you won't lose anything apart from 20seconds to get ressurected!" while I also don't want griefer and gang heaven (DFO, anyone?)
Player Killing should of course came up with major consequences when some kind of "loot system" is in the place.

3: Player Housing.
So little MMO's these days tries to make that thing happen. And if they try, it usually fails. Ultima Online and SWG did this in a very cool way but there was a major problem with crowds of houses.
And by player housing I don't mean just giving us option to place a building and nothing else. Customizing it, decorating with player crafted furniture and making a great spot for social/RP experience would be totally cool.

4: Experimenting.
Why every short sword must be the same as other short sword? Crafters should be able to experiment on them, adding different "stats" or "feats" to an item.
Eg. your crafted short sword might be "sharpened"&"balanced" while other might be "heavy"&"hardened". Different stats/statuses coming up with those lovely item feats.

5: Specializations.
I like the idea of skill based system, but there is one thing it normally lacks of. Specializations of some kind, so in example: One blacksmith might specialize in creating armors, while other one will be a great guy with weapons. How about going even deeper, and adding some kind of "skill talent tree" where you can choose different things as your skill progresses? Talents might vary, from mechanical things like "+X to armor value of platemails" or "-x% leather armor weight" to pure aesthetic things like "5 additional appearance patterns for plate helmets" et cetera.
What for, you will ask? I think it's a great idea for making different crafters a big name. You want some nice looking plate armor? You go to a crafter whose famous because of his specialization. Another one might specialize with polearms et cetera. That makes game way, way deeper. Of course it can work with all types of skills like magic/combat or stealth-related ones. You can just take a look at Skyrim which has system similiar to that.
I've written down how it might work back in a day(Love theorycrafting and designing things/systems). Can't find it tho' :(

6: Quests and instanced group content.
Bossfights and other things, but WITH actual quests, choices, consequences and RPG feel. How about standard, randomized "caravan" quest where players can get ambushed by randomized kind&number of monsters and story might go little different way every time you take quest like that? That was just the simpliest idea I came up with. Of course it might get harder with more "advanced" things.

7: Itemization
Big no to dozens of epic-legendary-purple items from bosses - which - sooner or later are used by everyone. Maybe ingredients(dragon scales in example) for crafters, gold, vanity things and magical stuff which actually can be crafted or even outcrafted?

8: Moderated RP servers
You know, just few people with option to mute/unmute or whatever else, just to keep players IC safe. I've got trolled in WoW by random people so many times while RP'ing. GM's weren't really helpful in this case, while they could mute those guys or do other stuff. It's pretty little problem anyway.

9: Monks!
Right!:>


If Goblinworks changes their mind from using Skill-based, make sure not to gimp multi-class characters like they kind of are in Dungeons and Dragons Online.

You know, Fallout is a great and successful skill-based system so if the skill-based system is like Fallout with a Goblinworks twist, I will be happy with the system.


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Scott Betts wrote:


I actually don't think the mechanics of a dagger will go very far towards making this game feel like the world of Pathfinder.

I respect your concession that this statement reflects only a representation of your thoughts and not an authoritative, conclusive, unassailable fact of game design.

The point I presented in the micro rather than macro scale by discussing one specific, common-usage weapon type instead of every individual weapon type separately is that weapons are only a part of the entire combat equation. A character well-skilled in the use of a dagger can administer lethal damage levels with ANY dagger, ANY (proficient) character can wield whatever dagger they encounter, and should there somehow be a character out there with no proficiency in the use of the dagger, even that poor sod could take a stab at sticking the pointy end into an opponent. The definitive aspect of Pathfinder RPG play that I intend to convey the importance of in establishing the "Pathfinder feel" is that the specifics of the equipment do not trump the character. Thank you, Onishi, for understanding me and for attempting to clarify that for me in my absence.

I apologize, Mr. Betts, for confusing you. Writing in a representative tone is more comfortable and natural for me than quoting, picking apart, literalizing and arguing with the words of others. Not warning you ahead of time that I would be doing so would have been a mistake on my part if you were the party to whom my thoughts were being addressed. Still, I'm glad you mapped out your confusion so thoroughly so I could clarify for you. In the future, though, if I've not indicated that you are the person to whom I am speaking, it's safe to assume that you are indeed not the person to whom I am speaking. Your individualized blow-by-blow commentary is not warranted or desired; if I'm not addressing you, then your specific understanding of my remarks is unnecessary.

Goblin Squad Member

That Old Guy wrote:
I respect your concession that this statement reflects only a representation of your thoughts and not an authoritative, conclusive, unassailable fact of game design.

I'm so glad that you respect it!

Quote:
The point I presented in the micro rather than macro scale by discussing one specific, common-usage weapon type instead of every individual weapon type separately is that weapons are only a part of the entire combat equation. A character well-skilled in the use of a dagger can administer lethal damage levels with ANY dagger, ANY (proficient) character can wield whatever dagger they encounter, and should there somehow be a character out there with no proficiency in the use of the dagger, even that poor sod could take a stab at sticking the pointy end into an opponent. The definitive aspect of Pathfinder RPG play that I intend to convey the importance of in establishing the "Pathfinder feel" is that the specifics of the equipment do not trump the character.

Perhaps it would help if you explained an instance in a modern game in which equipment trumped character (and, more importantly, why this is a bad thing). Daggers in WoW, unfortunately, is not such an example.

Quote:
I apologize, Mr. Betts, for confusing you.

None necessary, I assure you.

Quote:
Writing in a representative tone is more comfortable and natural for me than quoting, picking apart, literalizing and arguing with the words of others.

I appreciate your desire to stay within that comfort zone.

Quote:
Not warning you ahead of time that I would be doing so would have been a mistake on my part if you were the party to whom my thoughts were being addressed. Still, I'm glad you mapped out your confusion so thoroughly so I could clarify for you. In the future, though, if I've not indicated that you are the person to whom I am speaking, it's safe to assume that you are indeed not the person to whom I am speaking.

Actually, on a public forum with an unstated audience, I think it's pretty safe to assume that you, as an individual reading that thread, are part of the intended audience.

Frankly, however, that's irrelevant; I will explain -

Quote:
Your individualized blow-by-blow commentary is not warranted or desired;

And this is why: You are posting on a public forum. To be perfectly honest, what you feel is warranted or what you desire don't really enter into my decision to respond.

Quote:
if I'm not addressing you, then your specific understanding of my remarks is unnecessary.

Don't worry, you needn't bother yourself trying to clarify. I'm sure I'll understand your arguments well enough without you needing to stoop to spelling things out for me.

Goblin Squad Member

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Scott Betts wrote:


Perhaps it would help if you explained an instance in a modern game in which equipment trumped character (and, more importantly, why this is a bad thing). Daggers in WoW, unfortunately, is not such an example.

I fail to see how it is not a good example. Now I will admit I haven't played WoW since vanilla days (pre burning crusade), so I can't quite list specific raids etc... but how does that not trump character? Let's take whatever the highest, hardest raid in the game currently is, and say 2 characters were wanting to go.

Character 1. A new level 85, who lets say is a former expert from another server, so he knows raids and builds like the back of his hand, using strategy he set up the best talent build anyone can come up with to prepare for the raid.

Character 2. Average skilled player when playing, he decided his talent points by blind clicking, does what he is told in the raid as to not screw things up. He is going on this raid for the heck of it, considering he already has already completed his sets and gear for the highest raid currently in the game.

Now on a raid, character 2 is most likely going to be at least 10x more valuble then character 1. A real guild in fact would probably refuse to even bring character 1 until they spent the time to get him the gear of the previous raids, unless they were just desperate to have him equiped, in which case they'd probably give the instructions "just stay in the back and leach, don't get anywhere near the action until everything is dead and we are looting, you are currently worthless in that gear.

Now why is this bad. A number of reasons, 1. In these games actually getting the gear is often based on dumb luck and chance, you happen to show up at the raid where the X sword of whatever dropped and then happened to be the one who needed it more then the other 6 people who attended. Your planning etc... are only a slight enhancement for this set of armor.

2. Variation in characters. In general when the gear is a bigger factor then the character planning, Usually it is a result of a few items being clearly better then the others. Your player skill, and your planning of your build, are virtually negligable. and thus a rogue in tier 7 armor, is a rogue in tier 7 armor. There are very few games that offer variations in builds, unique gears etc... and when they do, they usually can be counted on one hand.


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Scott Betts wrote:
Perhaps it would help if you explained an instance in a modern game in which equipment trumped character (and, more importantly, why this is a bad thing).

I no longer play any MMOs, and largely for this reason. I played Guild Wars casually for a while, but lost interest: there was very little sense of roleplaying in that game, and based on the conversations I have had with friends who play (and love) WoW, the same obstacles to my personal enjoyment in GW would apply to WoW. Since I know quite a bit more about playing tabletop Pathfinder than I do about MMOs, I'm going to keep my focus on answering your question from a Pathfinder perspective.

Pathfinder characters grow in power and experience. The enchantments placed on their weapons, armor, and other items grow in a complimentary fashion, but their increased damage output comes primarily in the form of more successful attacks served by the character. This makes sense in an abstracted combat system: the fighter doesn't necessarily launch more attacks in the designated time, he launches more successful attacks in a given time because he is more skilled. He does not need his weapon to deal x points of abstracted damage in any one of those strikes when his strength of arms and skill with blades insures that he will deal that damage in successive attacks. The adage, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people," is the point for which I am striving: the gun is not the actor, the person is. If that same character would be profoundly hindered by setting that particular weapon aside and picking up another similar one, then those roles of precedence have been reversed. The focus of the game has ceased to be the playing of a role and become purely a game of acquisition.

I've said my piece on this topic and am done. My hopes and fears for this game have been stated, as have those of countless others. The development team can do what they like with my requested and freely-given input: I'm not saying that I necessarily will play this game if all of my wishes are granted, nor am I saying that I will boycott it if none of them are. These are wishes, after all, not demands, and as with everyone else involved in this discussion (with, what, 3 exceptions?), the development decisions aren't getting made here anyway.

And now? Off to run my biweekly Pathfinder tabletop game. Good day.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
I fail to see how it is not a good example. Now I will admit I haven't played WoW since vanilla days (pre burning crusade), so I can't quite list specific raids etc... but how does that not trump character? Let's take whatever the highest, hardest raid in the game currently is, and say 2 characters were wanting to go.

Let's!

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Character 1. A new level 85, who lets say is a former expert from another server, so he knows raids and builds like the back of his hand, using strategy he set up the best talent build anyone can come up with to prepare for the raid.

Yep, that sounds about right.

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Character 2. Average skilled player when playing, he decided his talent points by blind clicking, does what he is told in the raid as to not screw things up. He is going on this raid for the heck of it, considering he already has already completed his sets and gear for the highest raid currently in the game.

This too!

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Now on a raid, character 2 is most likely going to be at least 10x more valuble then character 1. A real guild in fact would probably refuse to even bring character 1 until they spent the time to get him the gear of the previous raids, unless they were just desperate to have him equiped, in which case they'd probably give the instructions "just stay in the back and leach, don't get anywhere near the action until everything is dead and we are looting, you are currently worthless in that gear.

Pretty much.

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Now why is this bad. A number of reasons, 1. In these games actually getting the gear is often based on dumb luck and chance, you happen to show up at the raid where the X sword of whatever dropped and then happened to be the one who needed it more then the other 6 people who attended.

Calling it dumb luck is really minimizing it. First, the chances of you eventually receiving all the gear you need increases dramatically if you raid regularly. If you complete your lock-outs every week, you should be well-geared even compared to the rest of the raid within a month.

In addition, raids in WoW award raid tokens, which can be traded in for some of the best equipment in the game. No random chance here, these tokens are guaranteed. So you have yet another route to being well-geared.

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Your planning etc... are only a slight enhancement for this set of armor.

I promise you, if you take planning out of the equation you're not going to get very far at all.

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2. Variation in characters. In general when the gear is a bigger factor then the character planning, Usually it is a result of a few items being clearly better then the others. Your player skill, and your planning of your build, are virtually negligable.

That is nonsense. You are worthless to a raid without the requisite level of skill and coordination to both maintain the job you're there to maintain (whether holding aggro, DPS, or healing the raid) and, often, actually harmful to the raid in encounters where the entire raid can be wiped due to a single character's mistakes. No amount of gear will save you from being awful at the game.

But you still haven't made your case that gear trumps character in MMOs like WoW.

Goblin Squad Member

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That Old Guy wrote:
I no longer play any MMOs, and largely for this reason. I played Guild Wars casually for a while, but lost interest: there was very little sense of roleplaying in that game, and based on the conversations I have had with friends who play (and love) WoW, the same obstacles to my personal enjoyment in GW would apply to WoW. Since I know quite a bit more about playing tabletop Pathfinder than I do about MMOs, I'm going to keep my focus on answering your question from a Pathfinder perspective.

If roleplaying (by which you mean character interaction, development, and socialization) is of paramount importance to you, I suggest you stick with tabletop gaming. I have never found anything but disappointment in that regard in MMOs. Thankfully, that's not why I play them.

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Pathfinder characters grow in power and experience.

Well, I mean, until they don't.

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The enchantments placed on their weapons, armor, and other items grow in a complimentary fashion, but their increased damage output comes primarily in the form of more successful attacks served by the character.

My goodness, that's strange! WoW works in exactly the same way!

Let's be frank, here: In this regard, WoW and D&D are no different. You gain levels, and as you gain levels your character increases in power. At the same time, you accumulate better equipment. And at the highest level of each, when it is no longer possible to gain any more levels (and, yes, both D&D and WoW have these caps), the most reliable way to increase a character's power is to get better gear.

I think it just doesn't feel to you like your character matters more than your gear at the highest level of the game. Your character does matter - demonstrably so. And gear doesn't trump your character. Without the levels to back the gear up, the gear is unusable, and without the gear to back the character up, the character is impotent. Character progression and gear progression are complementary, and that's a good thing.

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