Mihai Soarta |
Both abilities from the PRD for reference:
Bit of Luck (Sp): You can touch a willing creature as a standard action, giving it a bit of luck. For the next round, any time the target rolls a d20, he may roll twice and take the more favorable result.
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made.
The way they intertwine is subject to interpretation - but I'm happy to flop either way the DM would prefer.
Fredrik |
I have an opinion and I'm going to try to persuade you to it. Just being up front about that. :)
Probability was not a strong subject of mine (compared to other maths), but I think that the first re-roll raises the average expectation from 10.5 to about 15, and then the second one raises it to about 18. However, there are two important differences between stacking re-rolls and stacking untyped bonuses:
1. More re-rolls can greatly reduce the odds of a very low roll. An individual roll is as likely to be 11 or higher as it is to be 10 or lower; a single re-roll suddenly makes it three times as likely to be higher than lower, and then a second re-roll gives it just a 1/8 chance to be in the lower half.
2. More re-rolls don't help at all with getting a very high roll. You could give Anton fifty re-rolls, or a thousand, or a trillion, and he'd still never hit a DC 30 on Disable Device (without an Aid Another or masterwork tools or a circumstance bonus or something).
It takes two characters, each giving up a standard action, in order to give another character two extra rolls on one action. (A witch can "cackle" as a move action, but a character can only benefit from his fortune hex once per 24 hours; so each time it makes a difference, it goes back to an original standard action to use fortune.) And then, both of those characters had to forgo other powers -- other hexes, all the 1st-level powers of other domains -- in order to have the combined superpower to help a character have one non-low roll per day.
I don't think that's too overpowered at all -- not that it apparently matters anymore, to anyone but an unnamed mite. ;)
Niɱ |
Larry? You don't know Larry the mite? Don't let on that you don't know his name... he gets very depressed when people don't know who he is. We need him to focus right now. ;)
Alexander Kilcoyne |
I'm certain thats not how Fortune works. I understand how you could read it that way but i've read several threads on this issue being debated and seen it played many times too. The key sentence in the description is this- "The target can call upon this good luck once per round". This makes it clear that the ability is not intended to be only a single re-roll, or a re-roll until it 'matters'. As long as I keep cackling, the recipient can keep making once/round rerolls- I don't need to use fortune again every time it 'makes a difference'. In fact, i'm expressly forbidden to use Fortune on the same target more than once per day- unless i'm simply extending the duration with cackle.
I do agree that stacking re-rolls isn't particularly broken though. Bit of Luck is very strong, but it does require a standard action for every round its used. Also-
"He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made."
So its not a re-roll as such, more of a 'lets boost my chances on this roll I think might be tricky'.
Edit: In addition, the wording has been flagged for change...
For clarity, where the hex currently says:
"Once a creature has benefited from the healing hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours."
It should actually say:
"Once a creature has been affected by the hex, it cannot be affected by it again for 24 hours."
Still not perfect wording, but it throws out the strange 're-roll until you succeed' mechanic that could be read into it.
Fredrik |
I partially disagree, and I'll explain how, and then I'll let the matter drop and agree to disagree (if we still do). I'll also spoiler this for fiddliness. ;)
You're right in that the fortune hex is a pre-roll, not a re-roll. It's a distinction that doesn't really make a difference to the question at hand. Also, my reading is that the healing hex was changed because cure light wounds can target undead for damage, which is not a benefit to them. (It's actually a nerf, since now each undead creature can only be harmed once per 24 hours by the healing hex.)
It seems clear to me that the net result is that a creature can get a single pre-roll from fortune, and one more pre-roll each round that it's extended with cackle; but as soon as the pre-roll actually provides a benefit to the target, then it doesn't matter how long the witch extends the hex. ("Benefit" apparently referring to "better result" -- and if your GM is nice, only counting better results that make a difference.) Once that happens, it'll be 24 hours before the target can benefit from the fortune hex again (by getting a better result, that makes a difference, from pre-rolling).
Anton Green |
I would just like to say here that I don't know what Fredrik is going on about. I love non-low rolls and would like more of them. Many more, whenever possible. I think they're awesome! 8) I still feel bad about that one I wasted because I couldn't move fast enough. :(
Alexander Kilcoyne |
I wrote a very long post here with a lot of quotes and arguments but edited it out, because frankly this is only going to get antagonistic; this will be my last post on the subject and i've kept it small.
There isn't an official FAQ response yet but everything except the single line with the ambigous term 'benefits from' supports the mechanic of being able to make multiple re-rolls, albeit only once per round as the limit states. Interpreting 'benefits from' in the murky manner you have suggested is a major nerf to the hex as played by everyone i've ever played PF with, as the guides to witches suggest it should be played and my own gut feeling on its power level- yes a reroll every round is fairly powerful, but its limited by being forced to be a pre-roll, by the Witch having to be within a 30 foot range and having to give up a move action each round to support it. With the nerf your suggesting applied, it is a freaking terrible hex. Your not the only person who has interpreted it that way in the various discussion threads about it but it appears to be a minority view.
I await terok's decision but to my eyes, the RAI is very clear.
If you would like to help speed up an FAQ, heres the link- Link
I do wish they would answer questions like these in the blogs instead of stupid RAGELANCEPOUNCE cheese.
Mihai Soarta |
As to the interaction of the two - I can see the interpretation of three rolls... I can also see a justification for four rolls... but I can also potentially see a DM reasoning behind not letting them stack.
I'm happy to go with whatever DM Stephen thinks is best.
Alexander Kilcoyne |
Purely RAW, you'd end up with four rolls for one roll- but only assuming you have both Fortune and Bit of Luck in play. Pre-roll of Fortune lets you roll two D20's, while Bit of Luck allows a re-roll on both.
Considering they both invoke luck in their fluff though and are fairly similar in nature, i'm personally not fussed if DM rules they don't stack. In the rare cases we'll be applying both to a single person mid-combat, id rather thay have Bit of Luck anyway.
DM Stephen |
I am not a big rules lawyer so I am fine for now playing the Fortune the way Alex would like to. There are good arguements on both sides on the issue, but I would rather people have fun with their characters than worry about the exact nature of the ability unless it seems totally broken. If they answer the FAQ let me know.
As far as stacking I am going to allow that as well for the time being with the right to change my mind. They are two different abilities and as Alex has mentioned, Bit of Luck seems to be a little more powerful than Fortune anyways. Here is how it should be laid out.
You have been given Bit of luck by Mihai as well as Fortune by Aedalis. You know you will be rolling 2 d'20's for each roll. You are hit by a Slay Living spell (please expect this quite often).
You choose to use Fortune on this roll as well. You get the Regular roll, followed by the Bit of luck added d20, followed by the Fortune roll. It is still a crap shoot somewhat, but you get 3 rolls taking the best of the three. Thanks!
Fredrik |
I am not a big rules lawyer so I am fine for now playing the Fortune the way Alex would like to. There are good arguements on both sides on the issue, but I would rather people have fun with their characters than worry about the exact nature of the ability unless it seems totally broken. If they answer the FAQ let me know.
Just to be clear, although I'm opinionated, I'm also happy to go with the flow. It seems to be an unusual combination (both online and offline), and so I'm often misunderstood -- but that's okay, it's cool, I get why I'd be perceived that way. Those darn rules lawyers can be really frickin' annoying. ;)
Anton Green |
I think that the party loot log is now up-to-date.
Fredrik |
Lord oKOyA: Yes. As I recall, Anton suggested it for him, Nim was very modest, and no one else spoke up. It's his.
And thank you. :)
Alexander Kilcoyne: It's all just in-character. This is the least-fussy group that I've ever played with. I only keep track on the party loot log because I need to for myself. I mean, Nim didn't even know that he had a potion of haste! :o
No seriously, when you and Mihai get access, sort by Owner and look at all the "base camp" stuff that's anyone's for the asking. You might want some of it.
Mmmm... and there are two standing rules of thumb: Tragershen gets any unclaimed potions (to make sure that everyone knows where they are), and Nora gets any cash or equivalents (because everyone trusts a Desnan priest). Except that Anton has claimed Nora's role out of a combination of grief and strong character, and no one has disputed it.
Lord oKOyA |
Nim is quite unconcerned with wealth... he assumes his fair share of the monetary loot will eventually make its way to him when the time is appropriate (once we are off the deserted island :) and he doesn't have any strong desires for magical things that don't directly help him in his primary role. He is fine with items going to those that can best benefit from them.
He has trust that his needs will addressed in time. :)
Like when Stephen drops a thundering flaming burst returning vorpal keen spear into the AP. :D
Cheers!
Niɱ |
Hey everyone,
I am entering a busy couple of weeks... we are moving to our new acreage starting today! Things will be in flux for the next 2 weeks as we move and settle in and then the wife and I are going to Arizona for spring break (sans kids).
I will do my best to keep up my posting, but if you don't hear from me for a length, please feel free to DMNPC my character if I am holding things up. (Map updates will not be possible in all likelihood when I am on my phone only.)
Things should return to normal in April.
(All this really means is that I will likely only post once a day, rather than the usual multiple posts. ;)
Lets keep the momentum going!
Cheers!
Corbius Jank |
Corbius will take the robe but is not desperate for it and seeing as Alex rolled a 19...
1d20 ⇒ 8
Enjoy ;)
Anton Green |
I was trying to build up your first Azlanti discovery...hopefully you will think it was worth it :)
I think it was pretty awesome! 8) Forgot to say that earlier.
ETA: I was just doing some record-keeping, and will assume that the Azlanti boots of the jungle's power to enhance base movement lasts for 5 hours, unless told otherwise.
Mihai Soarta |
Just occurred that not all may be aware of or own a Harrow deck, so an explanation might be in order.
The Spread that I used is the one that is laid out in the actual Harrow Deck instructions. The nine spots on the spread represent the nine alignments. The rows reflect positive (Good), unclear (neutral) and negative (Evil); while the columns are past (Lawful), present (Neutral) and future (Chaotic).
There are 54 cards, one of each alignment for each of the six player attributes. So for example The Peacock is the Neutral card for Dexterity. The way it's meant to work is that if a card is aligned - that is the alignment of the card matches it's position in the spread it is meant to positively reinforce the meaning of the card. If it doesn't, then it negatively reinforces the meaning of the card.
Ex: The LG card of Intelligence is the Hidden Truth. Aligned it represents a discovery or secret seen. Unaligned it might mean that the secret is revealed to the subject's detriment.
At least that is how it's meant to be used. I'm following it as a guide, but obviously only focusing on and twisting the individual cards and lay to my interpretation / benefit :)
Tragershen |
Tragerhsen will gladly take the scroll tube and its contents. As before, he'll make sure that the others can use it (Corbius and Aedalis) know exactly where he stows it so that if he is incapacitated in a crisis, they can make use of it.
Anton Green |
So, are the spell creation notes going with the guy who can read Azlanti, or with the special scroll case that preserved them for millenia? (If the former, Anton will volunteer a normal scroll case, since he has two maps that he got separately.) I can see it going either way; I just need to know for the loot log, and so that I don't have to retcon my in-character account more than once. ;)
Anton Green |
Also, we still haven't adjusted the watch order. IIRC, we were doing a three-hour rotation excluding the arcanists. Nora went first, since she meditated at the first star's light anyway; then Nim, since he had Wicewakan's low-light vision to help in the middle of the night; followed by Anton, since he couldn't sleep in medium armor (yet), and that way he only had to take it off and put it on once.
Much is still the same. There are still only three non-arcanists who don't need eight hours of beauty sleep followed by an hour of intense focus to power their magic. Nim still has Wicewakan, and Anton still can't sleep in his breastplate. The main difference is a priest of Sinashakti instead of a priestess of Desna.
I checked all the sources I have, and there isn't much on Sinashakti, except that he's called "the dawn-skinned" and "the hard-to-spell". ;) Want to take the dawn shift, Mihai, and Anton will switch to the dusk shift?
Mihai Soarta |
Mihai will be up early for spell prep and the dawn, so would need either first or last watch (not really fussed which).