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Dealing with high AC


Advice

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Okay, here's the situation. We're playing the Rise of the Runelords AP and in addition to having an oversized party I have a dwarven shielded fighter who's AC is around 38 when fighting giants (including expertise), which is a bit of a problem when the opponents are mere ogres (about to assault fort Rannick in the Hook Mountain Massacre). The rest of the group, icluding full-plated cleric and paladin are lagging about 10-15 points behind (focus on 2h weapons and so on). As you can see even with attack near to +15 the classed ogres are unable to land a hit and ganging upon him is quite improbable in sufficient numbers (not enough large creatures can effectively fit around).

I guess later the attacks will outgrow the AC, but now I'm looking for ways to ocasionally challenge him even when there's no caster or anything with touch attack at hand WITHOUT stealing his shtick, ignoring him in favour of the others or overwhelming the group.

Here I want to pull of a normal fight for a while, after which the ogres start to panic and raise alarm with shouts "Dwarf! Giantslayer!" After which some of the higher ranks decides to deal something about that. "Burn the Dwarf!" quickly hauling in oil and alchemist fire, raising hell in widely inaccurate barrage of incendiary projectiles (touch/splash/area attacks) aimed at the dwarf.

Any ideas for similar fun ways to make the life a bit more miserable for the hero and memorable for the players?


Reach out and touch him. Then lightning bolt him. Then use alchemist items on him, also more touchy spells.

Also double check that sheet. I've lost track of the number of people that accidentally take two rings of protection, have mage armor and armor, etc etc when they create their 'untouchable' ACs. Do understand that it is quite possible and fairly easy to keep a real untouchable AC in pathfinder so you probably will not outgrow this problem. But also remember not all your monsters are idiots that will stand there and swing with him.

Now I don't fully doubt him because it is possible... but it requires a certain... touch to get it done.

By the way fragile ground that breaks under weight? Yeah I like it.

Shadow Lodge

What Abraham said.

Possible weaknesses in high AC builds are touch attacks, AoE spells, auto-hit spells (magic missile), true strike, sundering, paralyze, create pit, or rage spells that reduce AC (and possible prevent Combat Expertise).


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You want to make him truly miserable? Have the enemies ignore him. I know you want to avoid it, but seriously. If the two-handed fighters are dishing out all the damage and are easier to hit, why would any creature bother attacking a chunk of metal with a dwarf inside?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Grapple him.

Sunder or disarm his shield.

Have someone throw charm spells at him and let the PCs worry about how to breach his armor class.

Cheliax

Indeed. Post the maths from his sheet, otherwise the 38 AC feels a touch ... potent. Furthermore, combat expertise means his attacks are somewhat less impressive than they could be. It probably balances nicely.

In general, this is the sort of thing that players very much enjoy in my experience. The feeling of invulnerability and power that comes from a well designed trick. So do not stress too much. Just keep him busy with someone while other ogres attack the rest of the party. They're dumb, but opportunistic.

But you asked for ideas ... let me see ...

-- You could include some additional minions for the ogres. Minions specializing in traps, lassos, and other things that could foil or delay the shield fighter.

-- Sunder those shields he carries? And his armor?

-- Give one of the ogres a dwarf-bane weapon of some kind? Orcs have made enough of them in their time, there must be a few running about that the Kreegs might have picked up.

-- Since you are looking for something to provide an attack of at least +28-30, consider making an ogre bard. Someone to confound the party and provide many bonuses to the whole clan. And take advantage of poor will saves.

Cheliax

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber

Maybe the ogres do what my two year-old did...

If it doesn't break, open, or respond appropriately to abuse, he starts throwing it. Dwarf-tossing for the win.

Can't dodge bonus/expertise your way out of hitting the ground from a great distance, being on fire, or drowning. Surely there's a rain barrel they could stuff the dwarf into, or something tall they could drop him off of.

Nets could be useful, too. Plenty of things which deny him expertise since he'll be taking actions other than swinging a melee weapon.

Cheliax

Squeatus wrote:

Maybe the ogres do what my two year-old did...

If it doesn't break, open, or respond appropriately to abuse, he starts throwing it. Dwarf-tossing for the win.

Can't dodge bonus/expertise your way out of hitting the ground from a great distance, being on fire, or drowning. Surely there's a rain barrel they could stuff the dwarf into, or something tall they could drop him off of.

Nets could be useful, too. Plenty of things which deny him expertise since he'll be taking actions other than swinging a melee weapon.

I like this idea, it kind of makes sense that ogres would just toss the dwarf out of the way


The fact is that Rise of the Runelords contains A LOT of encounters with brutes that are giants.

The AC is fine. He is pretty dexterous for a dwarf, has crafted himself a mithral full plate, throw in a shield, some enchantments, expertise and shielded fighter bonuses, dwarf racial bonus and you'll be there.

The player is a powergamer and I don't want to deny him his AC specialisation.

Touch attacks are of course an option, but not an ideal option for the giants, nor are the casters (seiously, will saves are getting a bit old) and alchemists. Bards will be included, but they are not enough I'm affraid.

I also consider animating the headless rangers as undead champions (Morkumrian is a necromancer afterall) in this situation, BUT that won't always work. Sundering is in plan as well, but I need to avoid overplaying it.

Please don't consider ways that make player miserable. I want the PCs to be threatened ingame, not players frustrated in real. I was hoping for some fun gimmicks along the lines of the giant-slayer alert. I can deal with the dwarf when there are other enemies in play, but I wanted to try to give the giants some chance on the dwarf tank as well.

Still, thanks for the suggestions so far.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Don't forget that the enemy can use Aid Another to give a few +2's to hit him.
EDIT: posted too soon, too many RL distractions

Players, I've found, seem to enjoy this idea - throw 6 giants at him, with five of them providing Aid Another for a further +10. Each one he drops means a +2 less for the giant's attack. Don't forget about flanking.

Change it up with a group of them going in for a grapple or for a trip or to grab his shield from him.


Pathfinder Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Couple of options :

Toss in a tripping ogre with reach. I doubt the Dwarf's CMD is very high, it doesn't matter how high his AC is if he's flat on his back on the ground. And he provokes AoO when he stands up. Give the ogre a tripping reach weapon to boot (which should let him do this at 15 feet if I remember correctly that Ogres have 10 ft reach already).

Nets. Remember, nets can tangle you up and render you not only useless but easy to hit, and there's no reason why an Ogre couldn't throw a net. For that matter, he's got the strength to use a big heavy net that's harder to cut your way out of. Again, then the dwarf is on the ground, helpless in the net, and easy to hit.

Poisons. They may not hit often, but when they do, now the dwarf is making con saves (yes, it's easy for him to make them, but, it only takes a single low roll). Recently we had 4 out of 6 players down to 0 strength due to fighting a giant tarantula. They are all level 6, it's CR 8. That included the big nasty half-orc barbarian and the halfling monk. In fact, the goblin mage and the catfolk witch were the only ones not down. All it took was the half-orc failing one saving throw to get poisoned.


Poison - probably not available now, spiders were already in game and were fun though.

Flanking and aid - I can get about four guys to attack him at best (space!) that's +8 at best, but there are not enough ogre fighters at hand to utilise that +23. I'll try those trips, but the CMD isn't THAT low.


First of all, this thread might need a spoiler alert, given some of the RotRL specific information.

Regarding the question, I'd suggest the ogres using combat maneuvers from time to time. Not knowing the numbers, I would guess that their chances of succeding are better than 1 in 20.

If you want to mess with him a bit, you could have an ogre with great big hammer useful for sundering waiting some place in the castle. A solid whack to his full-plate granting it the broken condition could take his AC a bit down, without taking his speciality away from him. Of course, this shouldn't be used entirely against the dwarf. Personally I like situations, where you need to find alternatives to your usual tactic, and while having a broken weapon is a small change, it is one that matters.
Generelly I wouldn't recommend destroying their items, though...


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A swarm or two could liven things up. Have the hill-billy giants get frustrated and bust open a hornets' nest near him. Have them bull rush him into a pit full of rats that they keep to get rid of garbage, etc.

If you're feeling really ornery, have one of them fetch a pet rust monster that they keep on hand as a can-opener for "them tasty canned vittles".

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

"Can't hit little thing, I"LL WRESTLE IT INSTEAD"

Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Reposition (for flank), overrun (knocks prone if you beat CMD but 5). You can have one Disarm him then the other grapple so he doesn't get an AoO versus the grapple.

Grappling you can deal damage on a successful grapple check, no attack roll versus AC...

"SQUEEEZE LITTLE THING!!"

Spoiler:
Once grappled, have them throw him outside the fort... or they can carry him. There are a couple barbarians in that fort which have buckets of hit points to do this. If possible, throw him deep in the lake... that will open his eyes a bit.

Many of these tactics work particularly well since they have reach and can do them without provoking attacks (though grappling does).


Ogre's should run from dwarves. They have almost no chance.


The historic antidote for heavily armored foot soldiers is mounted archers. You can't hit what you can't reach. And a swarm of horse archers is going to get lucky some of the time. And dwarves have such short stubby legs...


cattoy wrote:
The historic antidote for heavily armored foot soldiers is mounted archers. You can't hit what you can't reach. And a swarm of horse archers is going to get lucky some of the time. And dwarves have such short stubby legs...

Please note that it's for RotRL. Perhaps they can encounter a group of Shaonti somewhere, but I have GIANTS to work with. I know what to use when they are not in game, but the AP is not going that way.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

I think he's looking for something specific to a set encounters and archers don't really fit in with that series of encounters very well.


Enemies like that are what those spells that either require only a touch attack (since most the AC probably comes from armor) or no attack at all are made for. Have your casters deal with that guy, while the melees mostly try to keep him away from those fragile targets.
They try to grapple him, trip him, or otherwise use stuff on him that targets CMD (which does not include armor or shield, not it's enhancement bonuses) and that basicly forces him to use his actions for something other than smashing the guy with the funny pointy hat into a bloody pulp.

Not every solution involves "hit it with the sword till it dies".

Sundering his armor and shield may also work of course, but that leaves you with a bunch of broken (possibly formerly magic) items as loot. However Make Whole is the spell that can fix those again, so not all is lost :)


Monsters on high ground.

Terrain that naturally funnels attackers along a linear path

Really big round boulders.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

As said above - grapple him.

AC 38 minus his shield (-2) and minus his plate (-9) leaves him at 27 max. CMD. Likely even 25 or less.

Now let's look at some enemies just out of he Bestiary:

Ogre: +7 to hit, CMB +9

Nat 20 to hit, 16 or less to grapple (or succeed in other Combat manoeuvres)

Hill Giant: +14/+9 or +13/+13 and CMB of 15

Nat 20 to hit, 10 or less to grapple (or succeed in other Combat manoeuvres)

Yes - the dwarf will get an AoO - but with high enough HP the dwarf unlikely kills them with one blow. It is allowed to use Aid another to add a further +2 to the grapple - like 2 ogres grappling your tin can.

Once grappled you can deal damage according to your unarmed strike in the next round - getting a +5 on this if he didn't break free.

Here is another tactic:
Hill Giant 1 is doing an overrun attack. If he manages to get the dwarf prone then some minor giant goes in for the grapple - not having to worry about AoO and grapples.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Actually, it's far more likely his CMD is much lower than 27. If you figure 8th level...

Strength: 21 +5 (belt)
Dexterity: ?? 18? +4

Ring of Protection: +2

That's 21 and even that is being pretty generous with no racial strength bonus and a dexterity penalty... I can't see it being too much higher, 18 is far more likely than 27.

With a 21, a combat maneuver succeeds on a 12... for a over with class levels it's a cakewalk. A second CMB they get to move at half speed, pin him, or deal damage.

.

People who have ridiculous ACs eyes sort of pop out when you say "He grapples you"

Spoilerific for the Original Poster:

That encounter is going to be a cake-walk for a large group unless you add more ogre's with class levels.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Dennis

The Dwarven bonus against Giants is +4 AC dodge bonus - and Dodge Bonus applies for CMD.

Not 100% sure - but I think this one would stay for the CMD. I also just realize I (and you) missed out the BAB.

So level 8 should be closer to 30 with a dwarf. PreGen Valeros level 7 has a CMD of 26 without being a Dwarf. Still worthwhile to check out the numbers.

Thod


Ah I somehow missed you look for ways to hit a player with your NPCs and not the other way around.

In that case sundering is still an option, but can be considered sort of a dick-move really. If he's just terribly hard to hit, but otherwise doesn't deal much damage himself as others have said, ignore him. Deal with the others first.
THEN you can turn your attention towards the guy.

Also, if you want you can use aid-another to make it easier to get at least one attack through. Even multiple guys can do it, for more bonus.


Dennis Baker: That goes without saying, although I'll have to tweak them probably unless the conversions on d20pfsrd are maneuver focused. Maneuvers are probably the best idea for these giant encounters though...

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Tales Subscriber
Zmar wrote:

The player is a powergamer and I don't want to deny him his AC specialisation.

<snipped>

Please don't consider ways that make player miserable. I want the PCs to be threatened ingame, not players frustrated in real.

I think increasing the chance the ogres do *something* from 5% (nat 20 only) to 25-30% will make it interesting without being unfair, really.

I use "deny expertise" in my language but I don't mean to say you should set up the encounter so he is denied his combat expertise (or any other feats) all the time. Just that he won't necessarily have the opportunity to have it "on" permanently.

It seems to me the ogres would get a little frustrated and resort to grappling, throwing, burning, or anything else if they weren't very successful. They're not brilliant, but I imagine ogres show some signs of cunning when it comes to hurting things.

I think the fighter is still wildly successful since the ogres will be eating AoO's with reasonably small chances to succeed, but it'll feel a lot more dangerous. It'll also seem a lot more reasonable than hillbilly giantkin badtouch clerics or fighters armed with bane weapons. :)

Most likely outcome is he survives, gets in enough trouble to make things interesting, and ultimately feels rewarded by his build without steamrolling the rest of the module and the next. :)


Squeatus wrote:
Zmar wrote:

The player is a powergamer and I don't want to deny him his AC specialisation.

<snipped>

Please don't consider ways that make player miserable. I want the PCs to be threatened ingame, not players frustrated in real.

I think increasing the chance the ogres do *something* from 5% (nat 20 only) to 25-30% will make it interesting without being unfair, really.

I use "deny expertise" in my language but I don't mean to say you should set up the encounter so he is denied his combat expertise (or any other feats) all the time. Just that he won't necessarily have the opportunity to have it "on" permanently.

It seems to me the ogres would get a little frustrated and resort to grappling, throwing, burning, or anything else if they weren't very successful. They're not brilliant, but I imagine ogres show some signs of cunning when it comes to hurting things.

I think the fighter is still wildly successful since the ogres will be eating AoO's with reasonably small chances to succeed, but it'll feel a lot more dangerous. It'll also seem a lot more reasonable than hillbilly giantkin badtouch clerics or fighters armed with bane weapons. :)

Most likely outcome is he survives, gets in enough trouble to make things interesting, and ultimately feels rewarded by his build without steamrolling the rest of the module and the next. :)

Exactly my thoughts. I'm glad that I was reminded of the maneuver mathematical feasibility. I'll have to avoid sundering, for the dwarf relies on a shield for both AC AND damage (actually his shield bash is more dangerous than the axe he wields for show), although I'm considering disarms.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, because it is fun, challenge your dwarven friend with a deep pool. Swimming can be problematic, especially if ogres are standing outside and try to smack you. If he's flat-footed too (when trying to climb up out of the pool) then even better.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

And don't forget to have one ogre say while grappling him "I will love him and hug him and call him 'George'". Once is probably enough.


Paul Watson wrote:
And don't forget to have one ogre say while grappling him "I will love him and hug him and call him 'George'". Once is probably enough.

I haven't been holding back at Graul Cabin, so the Ogres will be half-naked and glistering with pork fat... eww


Dennis Baker wrote:

Actually, it's far more likely his CMD is much lower than 27. If you figure 8th level...

Strength: 21 +5 (belt)
Dexterity: ?? 18? +4

Ring of Protection: +2

That's 21 and even that is being pretty generous with no racial strength bonus and a dexterity penalty... I can't see it being too much higher, 18 is far more likely than 27.

With a 21, a combat maneuver succeeds on a 12... for a over with class levels it's a cakewalk. A second CMB they get to move at half speed, pin him, or deal damage.

No Fighter worth his salt will ever have a CMD as low as 21 at 8th level. With a 10 Str, 10 Dex, and no other mods whatsoever, it's already at 18 (10 + 8 BAB). By the numbers you listed above, he'd have a 29 CMD, not 21.


AC 38 vs giants is quite doable for a 8th level dwarven fighter using weapon expertise.

Lets assume
AC base (10)
DEX +2 (+2)
+2 full plate (+11)
+2 heavy shield (+4)
Combat Expertise (+3)
Dodge vs giants (+4)
Greater Shield Focus (+2)
AC Booster items (a.o.n.a. or r.o.p. (or a combination)) (+2)

voila: AC 38 (and he isnt even buffed).

Problem is: This guy probably won't dish out a lot of damage. I have an character like this in mit RotR campaign (he got a giant bane dwarven waraxe...).

Qadira

True Strike -
yeah, it really only works once, but talk about getting someone's attention. Out jumps the Ogre ambushers and the skinny one on the end chucks a rock, rolls a 10... and hits with a 38. Talk about getting noticed. Everyone in the party will sit up and say "what? they're PLUS 28 to hit?!!" Just smile at them. After the fight they'll go looking for that "magic throwing stone" that pinged the Dwarf.


What seems like a million years ago my DM felt that my AC was too high. So he had me cross a Lake... It did not end well. The joke at the table was Dwarves are not Buoyant.

Silver Crusade

A couple ogres or giants with low caster levels could get fun. Have them focus on buff, debuff, and battlefield control. Lots of low level spells could give him some nasty surprises. if you use one type of caster per combat he may not know what to expect.

Rotate Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Alchemist


In an AP I was playing in last year I had a dwarf tin can shield and axe fighter. In one fight I found myself (quite suddenly) at the bottem of a 30 foot pit. I was mowing through the meatsacks in front to get to the archers plinking away at me from down the hall. I charged down the hall and down I went. That was where I stayed until the end of the fight.

Tank removed from the fight. :)

-Flea

Cheliax

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A few other traps from my notes:


  • My PCs had to contend with "Ogre Stew", buckets of slop best not thought too long about. The ogres tossed the slop down from the battlements onto attackers, who had to make a reflex save to avoid slipping and falling and then had to make fort saves to avoid catching diseases.
  • Add a breath weapon mutation to an ogre kin. Nauseating stench, brought on by metabolic irregularities and an unnatural craving for carrion or worse. Fort saves may be a dwarf specialty, but it's a different way for Sir Dwarf to feel omnipotent and awesome. "I faced down the foulest of them, bits of the rangers still stuck between his teeth ..."
  • Inside the fort, my ogres lifted and tossed furniture, creating difficult terrain and barriers to movement. My PCs always feel great when they can overcome or slash right through such things. Maybe yours will as well?


You should try to mind control him with spells. Or, you could use grease to make the terrain slippery, your ogre having reach could hit him then move back making him enter the reach area for an AoO.

I don't think grappling or tripping would work, thoses are against the CMD. In our game the dwarf defender (18 str, 16 dex, 20 con) is only level 4 and has above 30 CMD. My 18 strength character tried to trip him once and I failed with a critical on d20. It was very frustrating. He has specialized in tower shield and is the defender type, which gives him tremendously high AC and CMD. Your level 8 dwarf should have at least 34 CMD and a fortitude high enough to prevent him to be affected by any diseases too. If he did specialise on armor, his penalty to swim and climb are so reduced it is almost inexistant. So, even an ogre cannot toss or push the dwarf defender. (And can swim with his fullplate, because he is good to use with his armor... It is very weird and illogical to me)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think people are missing this part of his post:

Quote:
but now I'm looking for ways to ocasionally challenge him even when there's no caster or anything with touch attack at hand WITHOUT stealing his shtick, ignoring him in favour of the others or overwhelming the group.

Although maybe he edited that in.

Silver Crusade

Missed that part. Always have the giants power attack him so that when they do hit they smash him good.

Have some elite ogres who have power attack as a feat and do the same thing.


Well occasionally you have to trample on some toes. Not often but sometimes it just needs doing.

Beyond that a single level in ranger with favored enemy:Dwarf does wonders for hitting things.

Qadira

I've have been on the other side of this a lot lately - as one of my PFSOP characters is a AC Dwarf ("little brick" - that's with a "B"). He get's hit sometimes - and I draw a lot of attacks from moving AOOs so the party doesn't suffer them. Every now and again I hit the judge that is just offended that my character is hard to hit. So he fudges his rolls. Please don't do this. After a while it gets kind of plain to see, even to the other players. If the combat is 6 rounds log, and there are 4 enemies - and they need a nat. 20 to hit, how is it my guy gets hit 8 times - twice with crits? LOL! I needed to cast most of my cureing spells on my character.

That said, realize that at least 1 in 20 of your attacks on him is going to hit (a nat. 20). So anything that gets more than one attack is going to increase your monsters chance to hit him. Someone suggested mounted archers - hard to do with giants you said. Maybe, but what about throwing things and backing up? even run away, and come back later when they are camped and asleep (and the Dwarf is out of that armor of his).


Cheapy wrote:

I think people are missing this part of his post:

Quote:
but now I'm looking for ways to ocasionally challenge him even when there's no caster or anything with touch attack at hand WITHOUT stealing his shtick, ignoring him in favour of the others or overwhelming the group.
Although maybe he edited that in.

Nope, it was there right from the start.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

*SPOILER ALERT*

Dwarf throwing and water are both wonderful ideas, although I might save the water for later (Dam?). There is a pool with sevage in the fort that would be very nice spot to utilise though.

Mobile tactics will certainly be handy, but in the next installment where the giants move freely and the PCs try to protect Sandpoint. In the Fort there's little room for that sort of thing. The walls and rooms barely offer enough room to utilise ogres themselves (see the maps - walls 5 ft wide? That's dangerous to fight on for humans even). I must regularly increase the size of the rooms as they are needlessly crowded. The wide corridor in the fort is normally just enough for a large creature to walk through, in many spaces they must actually squeeze through, so not much ganging is possible there and mobility? Now way. Even Thistletop was terribly crowded. I have seven heroes (including druid's pet, a very potent combatant) himself to deal with and the heroes have Shaelu and two rangers backing them (I'll find some use for them outside though). That's hell of a people moving around, especially if there will be more enemies throw in some summons and created pits and welcome to the nightmare. Plus ogres are extremely poor ranged combatants. Giants will be better later, but at the moment I'll have to wait for a bit :)


Quote:
but now I'm looking for ways to occasionally challenge him even when there's no caster or anything with touch attack at hand WITHOUT stealing his shtick, ignoring him in favour of the others or overwhelming the group.

Well, if the baddies have a height advantage, there's the tried and true method of dumping oil on them and lighting it up...

If he's up high with you, perhaps bull rushing him off the side.

Heck, he's small. Do a touch attack against the head and hold him at arm's length, the ogre saying "Ha Ha! Little dwarfie can't hit me!" (Until the PC takes a swipe at the ogre's arm.) (NOTE: Okay, this one's more in jest, but it'd be funny!)

Hey, a trap door in the floor to separate him from the group might work. While the others are fighting their way in, he can use his high AC to battle through and get back to his friends. Toss in some swarms or oozes, and some ogres to make him feel cool and invincible, while the rest get the normal treatment.

I've found that if you give the opportunity for a player to feel awesome, they're less inclined to hate you when you bash 'em some other time. (NOTE: This doesn't work with everyone...:)


Dwarves are medium actually. A lot o people forget about that...


Shatter his non-magical armor items...


If you can just hit the dwarf on a 20 consider having the ogres go 'berserk' make as many attacks as possible and take the penalties to hit with it.

- off-hand weapon, possibly a kick, make use of reach to avoid AoO
- defensive fighting, why not..
- power attack ? you might hit once in 20 better make it count
- some ogre variants have bite or claw attack, check pfsrd
- you can make maneuvers, it still works on a 20
- use nets, 'mud grenades' (grease), tanglefoot bags, traps
- difficult terrain for creatures that are not large is an option

That aside there is nothing wrong with the ogres being relatively easy, it pays off to have the player feel good and a little confident. They are likely to let their guard down a bit in the next encounter.

Andoran

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

I have just one word for you: Swarms

Andoran

I dealt with this same issue when I ran that campaign many moons ago. Oddly enough it all worked out. When they got to the 'dam' and had to ascend the stairs...that Armor Check Penalty killed the dwarf! He (the player) refused to remove his armor. And well the party left him at the bottom of the stairs.

Oddly enough I think the player wanted me to lower the DC (which if I recall correctly isn't that high) which I was not about to do.

Remember that the ogres are not stupid brutes, they do have a degree of intelligence. Meaning, when the group I ran faced the ogres, of course the dwarf jumped to the fore of the combat. The ogres failed to hit his high AC but he wasn't hitting the ogres either (bad dice rolls), well the other members of the party were doing seroius damage to the ogres.

So: Ogres realized the immediate threat and went after the other party members ignoring the dwarf until they as a group could deal with the little creature.

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