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Bladebound Arcane Pool Enhancements.


Rules Questions


Hi, this is my first post, brought upon by being a first time DM playing pathfinder for the first time. A lot of firsts, so be gentle. I am trying to run a solo campaign with my house mate and we ended up in a rules "discussion" over his Black Blade.

He is 5th level and thus has a +2 Black Blade, he is trying to use an arcane point to give his Black Blade both flaming and shocking for a minute. My reading on this ability differs, I think he cannot add those enhancements due to the following reading.

"At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of
the following weapon properties... Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier ... These properties are added to any the weapon already has..."

The way I read this the enhancements add on to the +2 already on the Blade making it a +4 which is not possible until he reaches 13th level. Am I correct? Am I wrong? Please enlighten me :/ or discuss at least.


You read it yourself. "These properties are added to any the weapon already has."

The +2 that is already on the weapon doesn't count, its only the +2 that he is adding via the Arcane Point that are calculated together.

(I'm no Magus expert, so if there's something I'm missing someone should be along to correct me shortly.)


kyrt-ryder wrote:

You read it yourself. "These properties are added to any the weapon already has."

The +2 that is already on the weapon doesn't count, its only the +2 that he is adding via the Arcane Point that are calculated together.

(I'm no Magus expert, so if there's something I'm missing someone should be along to correct me shortly.)

I took that as they are added for the purpose of calculating point cost?


Ok, clarify something for me please? What kind of +2 does his black blade have? Is that +2 coming from Arcane Pool (which would stack the bonus cost with the enhancement abilities) or is it coming from something else?


The black blade has a +2 from being a black blade in the possession of a magus of a level that makes his black blade a +2 weapon.

The arcane pool stacks on top of that making it a +2 whatever black blade when he uses his arcane pool to enhance his blade.

The text you quoted means that since his maximum bonus with his enhancement is +2 the properties he adds to his blade cannot have a greater than +2 bonus, so he could make his black blade a +4 black blade if he so chose to spend his pool in that way, he could make it a +3 shocking weapon, a +2 frost burst weapon or a +2 flaming shocking weapon.

He cannot make it a +2 speed weapon since he does not have enough levels to add a +3 weapon property with his pool point yet but soon he will be able to. For example at level 20 the black blade will be a +5 weapon basic and he can use his arcane pool to add another +5 worth of abilities to it, for example he could make it a +5 keen flaming speed black blade.


You can add enchantments effects to the numerical enchantment blackblade, but you can't stack to numerical enchantments.

Simple PF rule multiple sources of the same type of bonus do not stack.

so he can't do a +2 blackblade to +4 (+2 overwrites +2 = +2 total)

but he can do a +2 blackblade to +2 flamming shocking

(of course as a GM your withing your right to limit all magic weapons to one elemental type of damage.)

Star Voter 2015

Phasics wrote:

You can add enchantments effects to the numerical enchantment blackblade, but you can't stack to numerical enchantments.

Simple PF rule multiple sources of the same type of bonus to not stack.

so he can't do a +2 blackblade to +4

but he can do a +2 blackblade to +2 flamming shocking

This is incorrect.

Quote:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Phasics wrote:

You can add enchantments effects to the numerical enchantment blackblade, but you can't stack to numerical enchantments.

Simple PF rule multiple sources of the same type of bonus to not stack.

so he can't do a +2 blackblade to +4

but he can do a +2 blackblade to +2 flamming shocking

This is incorrect.

Quote:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

Sure if you want them running around with +5 weapons at level 9 at zero cost.

edit:

correction +5 weapons at 7th level using the force athame from spellblade.

Silver Crusade

The ability works as written. If the magus already has a +2 weapon and may add a +2 equivalent from his arcane pool during one minute, then he may get a +4 weapon or a +2 flaming, shocking weapon, or a +3 keen weapon, or whatever ability costing +1 or +2 that he may buy during the action spent to improve his weapon up to the bonus provided by the ability.
The only normal limitations being that a weapon's total enhancement bonus cannot be higher than +10, with a +5 straight bonus maximum to the attack/damage enhancement.

Star Voter 2015

Phasics wrote:

Sure if you want them running around with +5 weapons at level 9 at zero cost.

edit:

correction +5 weapons at 7th level using the force athame from spellblade.

If it bothered me I would ban the class -- as it stands I would be more worried about a bard at level 7 giving off inspire courage and good hope which is going to have the same increase at the same 'zero cost' but for many more people.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Phasics wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Phasics wrote:

You can add enchantments effects to the numerical enchantment blackblade, but you can't stack to numerical enchantments.

Simple PF rule multiple sources of the same type of bonus to not stack.

so he can't do a +2 blackblade to +4

but he can do a +2 blackblade to +2 flamming shocking

This is incorrect.

Quote:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack with themselves.

Sure if you want them running around with +5 weapons at level 9 at zero cost.

edit:

correction +5 weapons at 7th level using the force athame from spellblade.

For one min at a time using a limited resource that powers most of his characters other abilities? Yeah i'm fine with it, if he's got a plus 5 weapon at level seven and he's using it all the time his spell recall and arcana are not getting used as much. Also +5 weapons are hardly game breaking intensified empowered shocking grasps delivered via a keen scimitar are kinda harsh though, oh he can spend a point of arcane pool to recall those spells as well? Damn, i hope he uses the +5 weapon now.


+5 weapons bypass alot of DR types


Phasics wrote:
+5 weapons bypass alot of DR types

Last I checked temporary enhancement bonuses didn't count towards bypassing DR, but it's possible I'm wrong here.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Phasics wrote:
+5 weapons bypass alot of DR types
Last I checked temporary enhancement bonuses didn't count towards bypassing DR, but it's possible I'm wrong here.

The following enchantment levels bypass the listed type of DR

Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine +4
Alignment-based +5


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Phasics wrote:
+5 weapons bypass alot of DR types
Last I checked temporary enhancement bonuses didn't count towards bypassing DR, but it's possible I'm wrong here.

This is incorrect, only when the source granting you the temporary enhancement bonuses tell you that they don't count towards bypassing DR, like greater magic weapon.

Silver Crusade

Except this thread was never an armchair discussion about the magus arcane pool being overpowered (spoiler : it isn't), but a question about how it really works by RAW. This question was answered.
For any "this is overpowered" topic, feel free to do a quick search on the forums, and report the amount of people sharing your mind, or even to play a magus and see if the option makes you a powerhouse. You should find it will be hard.


This came up in our game Saturday so I'm going to resurrect this thread with the following observation: The Black Blade does not gain an enhancement bonus outside the spell pool. It shows it on the chart, yes, but you'll notice that the chart follows exactly the arcane pool progression. Under the Black Blade Basic section it shows a description and explanation of every ability on the chart *except* the enhancement bonus. With that specifically excluded, the black blade has no inherent enhancement bonus of its own. If the designers' intent was for the blade to have its own bonus, there would be a section describing it in the black blade write-up.

--JD

Sczarni

Your reasoning is flawed. It has the full progression on the table and here is why: in order for a weapon to be intelligent it must first be magical.!.! Also to give you text; look under "ego", by its wording the entirety of the table is a part of it.
Ego: A black blade starts with an ego of 5, and that ego increases as the blade becomes more powerful, as perTable: Black Blade Progression.

With your reasoning then, a person would not get anything from a table that is not specifically described in their character entry, but is on a table. There are a few things that work like this, yet there is not question on if a character gets them.


JackDrake wrote:

This came up in our game Saturday so I'm going to resurrect this thread with the following observation: The Black Blade does not gain an enhancement bonus outside the spell pool. It shows it on the chart, yes, but you'll notice that the chart follows exactly the arcane pool progression. Under the Black Blade Basic section it shows a description and explanation of every ability on the chart *except* the enhancement bonus. With that specifically excluded, the black blade has no inherent enhancement bonus of its own. If the designers' intent was for the blade to have its own bonus, there would be a section describing it in the black blade write-up.

--JD

The black blade is a magic weapon.

That you don't realize this given the write up for Bladebound Magus and the chart YOU REFERENCED boggles me. If they don't get a magic weapon, what is the point of this archetype?


meatrace wrote:

The black blade is a magic weapon.

That you don't realize this given the write up for Bladebound Magus and the chart YOU REFERENCED boggles me. If they don't get a magic weapon, what is the point of this archetype?

The SRD says:

SRD wrote:
A black blade is bonded to a particular magus, much like a familiar, but in more of a partnership than a master-servant relationship.

If you look at the familiar rules, normally animal-intelligent creatures are given a higher level of intelligence due to the nature of the magical bond. No where does it say they gain any other property except those given on the familiars table. And, yes, every ability they are given is described under a corresponding entry. Following that line of reasoning, The black blade is effectively the equivalent of a hybrid of the Wizard's bonded object and familiar.

Shfish, to your point: the ego goes up according to the table. The ego progression is non-standard and therefore laid out accordingly. The ego of the black blade increases as the character gets more powerful. Since an intelligent weapon usually does not increase its stats after creation, unlike the black blade, the progression for stat advancement and corresponding ego development is shown on the table.

If you look under the Black Blade basics, it describes the intelligence, wisdom and charisma stats, both where they come from and why/how they progress. It does *not* specifically indicate where the enhancement bonus of the weapon comes from. The enhancement bonuses *do*, however, follow exactly the arcane pool progression for enhancement bonuses by level. This would seem to indicate the enhancement bonuses for the black blade are tied directly to the arcane pool progression for the purposes of calculating the non-standard ego progression and nothing else.

Finally, to Meatrace's point: The point of the archetype is to give you an unbreakable, intelligent weapon that can transform it's damage type from slashing to an energy form, can teleport directly to your hand from up to a mile away, acts as a back-up battery for when you run out of arcane pool points, and eventually gains the life-drinker special ability. Oh, and it can even help you stand watch since you gain the alertness feat while wielding it. If all those aren't enough and not have the enhancement bonus breaks the archetype for you... well, I don't know what to tell you.

The black blade is basically a bonded-object familiar. It gains intelligence as a familiar does and has special abilities like a familiar does, albeit a different set of abilities corresponding to its unique nature. It can be magically enhanced from the magus' arcane spell pool, just like any other non-magical weapon in the magus' hands. To ascribe anything further than that quickly causes the archetype to become overpowered.

--JD


Here's the problem with your reading of the table: Why would there be an enhancement bonus portion of the table at all if it weren't part of the black blade?

It is not written a maximum enhancement bonus or anything along those lines, merely as an enhancement bonus. So, can you provide a convincing reason for it to be there, if it is not meant to apply?

Sczarni

So by your reasoning a fighter gets no BAB progression becausin in the FIGHTER class entry it doesn't lay out BAB...yes moron is an apt term here...

Every class gets their progression from the tables that are appropriate, regardless if they spent the time to spell it out for every single narrow minded person or not..


Simple put the black blade weapon is very strong. Hence why the black blade has to wait to take arcana till level 6 and has a reduced pool size. the + granted at 1,5,9,13,and 17, that is stated in arcane pool is just that an additional +, the effect of the arcane pool. the plus granted is added to the weapon the magase is carring giving a total. the total can then be split between the + and the extra abilitys list giving, so yes a black blade can have a +2 flaming frost (whatever) weapon at level 5. down side is he can't do it as often as a regular magus who finds a +2 weapon and can't use awsome arcana yet or as much.
keep in mind that no weapon can have more than a total of +10 enchantment bonuses without the weilder having to chose to have an ability go inert.


It's an intelligent weapon, and therefore it's most common personality trait would be the desire to be wielded over all others, making it difficult to have a real weapon for when actually challenged and only using the weaker black blade for its niche energy damage ability a couple of times per day.

Reading its non enhancement abilities as worth 100k seems excessive, especially given its tiny arcane pool used to power most of them.

Any character could have an intelligent construct item crafted for them for money, so regardless the point of the class is to get an object for free. It's just a matter of scale. If you believe it's limited niche extras are worth as much as you rated them, though, I suppose I can see being shocked by having an enhancement bonus too. I can't see the black blade as a viable primary weapon without though.

And, the obvious and charitable interpretation of the chart is that it's the weapon's enhancement bonus. You're stretching hard to imagine it as a clumsy and unnecessary reprinting of the maximum enhancement equivalent bonus given by normal arcane pool use.

Dark Archive

it gets the enhancement bonus on the chart, otherwise theres NO POINT FOR IT TO BE ON THE CHART

+2 weapon and + 2 from pool = +4 weapon. (or +2 flaming, shocking, whatever)

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