Your quote is completely at odds with the linked quote in the actual thread.
When you cast blood money, you do so with a swift action. You create the needed components, and must then IMMEDIATELY (in the same round) cast the spell you want to use those components with. You don't need to finish casting the spell in the same round, though; once you start casting the spell, the components (and the prepared spell itself) are committed and used.
As JJ said "Keep in mind that blood money only really works if you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 round or less, since the components created vanish after that time. So you can't combine this spell with raise dead or resurrection, both of which have a casting time of 1 minute. Nor can you do so with greater restoration, which has a casting time of 3 rounds."
Thus, you can't use it for Symbols, which have a casting time of minutes.
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Nothing about that ring makes you immune to str damage.. it lessens the amount you take by up to 6 points max.Also Anzyr you could add this to help mitigate he STR damage from the spell"...and those who are immune to Strength damage (such as undead spellcasters) cannot use blood money to create valuable material components."
I guess we can move the argument here if you like, the last one didn't go well.
You could FAQ it?
RAW vs RAI. Any GM worth their salt will notice the obvious cheese and put the kibosh on it. If they don't they are intentionally looking for overpowered rediculousness or so inexperienced that they will have other problems long before this point.
There is a reason the game has an intelligent thinking person and not a table or computer to arbitrate things.
@Dr Grecko -Uh huh...recent...
He literally said it can't be used for spells that take more than a round to cast.
Literally said that.
Let it go. Or better yet ask him specifically if what Anzyr described is allowed by the spell.
I would love to see his response.
First, DrDeth, that quote you have was posted before Dr Grecko's and the later quote clearly is at odds with that as it explicitly says the component is *used*.
Second Ciretose, James is absolutely correct about Blood Money not working with Fabricate, I agree completely and have never suggested otherwise. You would know why if you read the spell, but once more I'll make the big bad spell rules clear and explain them.
Components V, S, M (the original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created)
The and I quote "Original Material". Blood Money is not the original material and can only cover costs it can't "convert" to anything.
Seriously, no offense but does the anti-caster side have someone better than Ciretose to argue their points. I mean your free to let him keep going but its making you guys look like you don't read the spells.
@Dr Grecko -Uh huh...recent...
He literally said it can't be used for spells that take more than a round to cast.
Literally said that.
Let it go. Or better yet ask him specifically if what Anzyr described is allowed by the spell.
I would love to see his response.
So your response quote is a simple "nope" from him on fabricate? Without explanation as to why he said nope... And, you assume that's casting time, and not a problem with the item creation aspect of fabricate which blood money prohibits.
Nice follow up though.
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Post your ideas to James Jacobs. Better yet, create a thread and FAQ it.
He literally said what you were trying to do would not work.
And no one, including yourself, thinks it should work.
So...at this moment you are arguing for what purpose, exactly? And how do you think this will end?
The spell does not work how you think it works. It specifically says one round for the purpose of preventing the exploit that even you seem to understand would be broken by your reading.
So post the question to James. Post the thread with an FAQ.
Or...when you are in a hole, climbing out is faster than continuing to dig.
Even if it mean someone on the internet who irritates you gets to be more right...
Blood Money can't even be used for free anyway.
If the spell requires the caster to expend XP, it instead gains a material component whose price is roughly 5 times the XP cost.
All the spells I'm talking about have already been converted so.... I don't see the point of this.
Feel free to FAQ it if you'd like. I was certain the rules allowed this even before Dr Grecko posted JJ's statement that the the materials are committed and used once you start casting the spell. Truly I see no other way to interpret this. Honestly while I appreciate JJ's clarification, the rules work that way already.
To be perfectly blunt, the Rules are on my side, JJ's most recent post is EXPLICITLY on my side and all you've posted in rebuttable is him saying no to a spell that I proved wouldn't work with Blood Money away. Burden of proof is on you. Don't let it bother you though I'm sure many people gloat about citations only to realize they messed up their timestamps... it happens.
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So you aren't asking or FAQing then? I'll do it when I get home if you don't.
I look forward to the answer...I think you know how it will come out so you probably don't...
EDIT: I'll also accept the compromise to let the whole thing drop if you agree that only an idiot DM would allow your reading of the spell in an actual game.
Post your ideas to James Jacobs. Better yet, create a thread and FAQ it.
He literally said what you were trying to do would not work.
And no one, including yourself, thinks it should work.
So...at this moment you are arguing for what purpose, exactly? And how do you think this will end?
The spell does not work how you think it works. It specifically says one round for the purpose of preventing the exploit that even you seem to understand would be broken by your reading.
So post the question to James. Post the thread with an FAQ.
Or...when you are in a hole, climbing out is faster than continuing to dig.
Even if it mean someone on the internet who irritates you gets to be more right...
Keep in mind, he literally said it does work in the followup post I quoted.
You don't irritate me, I respect your opinion. We're all friends here. I can certainly move on from the argument as you seem to have had enough of it.
If we can't argue on the internetz then whats its purpose? :)
*Edit - I agree Blood Money is a dumb spell that I would ban from my tables no matter how you read it. But we rarely use splatbooks
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All the spells I'm talking about have already been converted so.... I don't see the point of this.Blood Money can't even be used for free anyway.
If the spell requires the caster to expend XP, it instead gains a material component whose price is roughly 5 times the XP cost.
Ah, the Anniversary Edition updated it. Got it.
Edit: To Gustavo again.Lets look at the components shall we?
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
The ice sculpture is not what Blood Money is being used to replace, it actually has no cost. Arguably Eschew Material could waive the Ice Sculpture (it has no listed value), but since then you wouldn't get a check to make the likeness I recommend just making the Ice Sculpture as the spell requires since the Rubies are the costly part anyway.
blood money replace both. With 1d6 damage it replace the ice sculpture. With Str danage it replace the ruby. And in any case, it seems quite obvious that the 12 hours casting time doesn't mean you work frenzied for six seconds working in tge ice statue and powdering it with ruby, and then spend the next 11 hours 59 minutes 54 seconds whistling and playing with your thumbs.
Sorry, but this particular combo doesn't work
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So you aren't asking or FAQing then? I'll do it when I get home if you don't.
I look forward to the answer...I think you know how it will come out so you probably don't...
EDIT: I'll also accept the compromise to let the whole thing drop if you agree that only an idiot DM would allow your reading of the spell in an actual game.
See... things like this confirm you aren't reading my posts. For the fourth time this thread, just because a Wizard can use this level of power does not mean that all Wizards will be all-powerful. As I have said multiple times, Gentleman's Agreements, Houserules, and fun are very good reasons not to show up to a game with an All-powerful. My point is and has always been from page one, that under the rules the Wizard is indeed all powerful and the fact that the player agrees to bring an all powerful wizard like a proper Gentleperson, the DM has houserules that nerf them, or the player finds All powerful wizards boring... None of that makes the PF Wizard any less powerful.
You can feel free to FAQ, but I really have nothing to compromise on. Even if the FAQ does go against Blood Money being used with spells that have a duration of longer than 1 full round, my character followed all the rules in the game properly and was valid when posted. And hey so far I'm batting 1000. (I don't have ranks in Knowledge (Sports) am I saying this right?)
I never did answer the topic question, so to get back on topic:
I've never GM'd a "GOD" wizard build, but I do play one against my DM. And yes, I have caused him fits where I could see his frustrations with me. As a result, I'm considering NOT using a tactic I have yet to use that will just make it more frustrating for him and swap out Dazing spell for something a little less powerful.
He says he wants to see how it plays out before I switch from it, but I can imagine it's only a matter of time.
Yes, I trivialize encounters (with proper preparation) and do so while holding back so others can get in their fun as well, and it does frustrate the GM a bit.
Surprise encounters are another matter. They're not trivialized, but I'm not useless by any means.
Edit: To Gustavo again.Lets look at the components shall we?
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
The ice sculpture is not what Blood Money is being used to replace, it actually has no cost. Arguably Eschew Material could waive the Ice Sculpture (it has no listed value), but since then you wouldn't get a check to make the likeness I recommend just making the Ice Sculpture as the spell requires since the Rubies are the costly part anyway.
blood money replace both. With 1d6 damage it replace the ice sculpture. With Str danage it replace the ruby. And in any case, it seems quite obvious that the 12 hours casting time doesn't mean you work frenzied for six seconds working in tge ice statue and powdering it with ruby, and then spend the next 11 hours 59 minutes 54 seconds whistling and playing with your thumbs.
Sorry, but this particular combo doesn't work
Edit: Gustavo - Your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. So while it could become the rubies it can't do both. It also won't help with the mercury and phosphorus of the symbols, only the powdered diamond and opal worth a total of 1,000 gp.
Edit: To Gustavo again.Lets look at the components shall we?
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
The ice sculpture is not what Blood Money is being used to replace, it actually has no cost. Arguably Eschew Material could waive the Ice Sculpture (it has no listed value), but since then you wouldn't get a check to make the likeness I recommend just making the Ice Sculpture as the spell requires since the Rubies are the costly part anyway.
blood money replace both. With 1d6 damage it replace the ice sculpture. With Str danage it replace the ruby. And in any case, it seems quite obvious that the 12 hours casting time doesn't mean you work frenzied for six seconds working in tge ice statue and powdering it with ruby, and then spend the next 11 hours 59 minutes 54 seconds whistling and playing with your thumbs.
Sorry, but this particular combo doesn't work
Actually, it seems blood money can create only one component per casting. You would have to create the ice-sculpture via regular components.
your blood transforms into one material component of your choice
Ironically.. This may break the argument for using it for symbol spells, as they use multiple materials, but don't specify the costs of those materials.
symbol of pain for instance: (mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal worth a total of 1,000 gp) Which one is the costly component?
symbol of death: (mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal worth 5,000 gp each) This spell says "each", but you can create only one.
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[Feel free to FAQ it if you'd like. I was certain the rules allowed this even before Dr Grecko posted JJ's statement that the the materials are committed and used once you start casting the spell. Truly I see no other way to interpret this. Honestly while I appreciate JJ's clarification, the rules work that way already.
To be perfectly blunt, the Rules are on my side, JJ's most recent post is EXPLICITLY on my side and all you've posted in rebuttable is him saying no to a spell that I proved wouldn't work with Blood Money away. Burden of proof is on you. Don't let it bother you though I'm sure many people gloat about citations only to realize they messed up their timestamps... it happens.
You're getting pretty specious with the commited and used part.
Indeed, some spells, even tho only “one round’ lag over into the next round. That’s why “You don't need to finish casting the spell in the same round”. This does not at all contradict"Keep in mind that blood money only really works if you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 round or less, since the components created vanish after that time. So you can't combine this spell with raise dead or resurrection, both of which have a casting time of 1 minute. Nor can you do so with greater restoration, which has a casting time of 3 rounds.”
JJ didn’t say he was wrong in that earlier post, he was just clarifying. In fact, later he said that the second post, the one you are hanging your hat on, was "my error".
In fact he clarified it again, here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=571?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#28506
Meredith Nerissa wrote:
Posted in November 27, 2012.
James Jacobs wrote:
Keep in mind that blood money only really works if you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 round or less, since the components created vanish after that time. So you can't combine this spell with raise dead or resurrection, both of which have a casting time of 1 minute. Nor can you do so with greater restoration, which has a casting time of 3 rounds.
Posted in December 16, 2012.
James Jacobs wrote:
When you cast blood money, you do so with a swift action. You create the needed components, and must then IMMEDIATELY (in the same round) cast the spell you want to use those components with. You don't need to finish casting the spell in the same round, though; once you start casting the spell, the components (and the prepared spell itself) are committed and used.
Er...which is it? Can you use blood money on spells with long casting times or can't you? If you can't then the spell doesn't strike me as being very good since most spells with costly components have long casting times.
JJ's response:
It's the first one.
But if you use the second one, that's fine too.
Despite my error on that second post, as long as you stay consistent in how you run the spell in your game... THAT'S the right way to do it."
JJ also said “I've not seen it used in any games I play or run. Which is fine with me. It's supposed to be a pretty rare spell that's associated with Thassilon, not with every adventure. “
AND6. "Could I use the blood money spell in the final round of casting a 10-minute spell?" JJ "6) Nope, because casting blood money must be cast "just before casting another spell," not "just before you finish casting another spell."
So, its supposed to be a special spell, not something that should be used to gauge Spellcaster power over all. AND, you're utterly, completely, totally wrong about the more than one round part.
;-)
Edit: Gustavo - Your blood transforms into one material component of your choice required by that second spell. So while it could become the rubies it can't do both. It also won't help with the mercury and phosphorus of the symbols, only the powdered diamond and opal worth a total of 1,000 gp.
Edit: To Gustavo again.Lets look at the components shall we?
Components V, S, M (ice sculpture of the target plus powdered rubies worth 500 gp per HD of the simulacrum)
The ice sculpture is not what Blood Money is being used to replace, it actually has no cost. Arguably Eschew Material could waive the Ice Sculpture (it has no listed value), but since then you wouldn't get a check to make the likeness I recommend just making the Ice Sculpture as the spell requires since the Rubies are the costly part anyway.
blood money replace both. With 1d6 damage it replace the ice sculpture. With Str danage it replace the ruby. And in any case, it seems quite obvious that the 12 hours casting time doesn't mean you work frenzied for six seconds working in tge ice statue and powdering it with ruby, and then spend the next 11 hours 59 minutes 54 seconds whistling and playing with your thumbs.
Sorry, but this particular combo doesn't work
then it doesn't work for symbol either. You can use it as powder diamond or powder opal, not both.
In any case, my point stands: you don't use the material components of simulacrum in the first round and then do nothing for 12 hours. Be it the ice sculpture or the ruby powder
Does the Explosive Runes on bloody skeletons still work? Because if I were GM, I would totally have the NPC wizard pop up a hundred feet away (with Greater Invisibility of course) and cast a Dispel Magic on his bloody skeleton while he is adding his one hundredth Explosive Rune spell.
Oh, and he will be casting it at caster level 1.
Yes yes, if you were GM you would Fiat things away in order to ignore that they exist.
It's really quite boring how often this "argument" comes up.
V, S, M (mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal worth a total of 1,000 gp)
Here we have four material components:
-Mercury (negligible cost)
-Phosphorus (negligible cost)
-Powdered Diamond
-Powdered Opal
The total cost (together) of the Powdered Diamond and Powdered Opal must be worth 1000gp. So we take a negligible costing amount of diamond or opal and then generate 1000gp worth of the other.
At least, that's how you'd have to do it with Blood Money.
How is that using fiat? He is walking around with a bomb that is set to go off. Explosive Runes are obvious; anyone with any Spellcraft at all is going to recognize them. An intelligent wizard (and how many have you met that aren't?) is going to capitalize on that.
He has always assumed that he will just have these skeletons walk up to the bad guys (or probably good guys based on this character) and then blow them up. You don't think his opponents are going to try to stop him? I am not going to have his opponents just stand around and let him. "Blow up the skeletons and everything around them" is the obvious opening move on round one.
Here is a question. How is anyone reading all of those Explosive Runes at exactly the same time? Once you read the first rune, it explodes, destroying all of the other runes with it. Really he should be thanking me for the Dispel Magic idea.
Other ways to completely negate this tactic. Summon Monster, have it read the runes and die. Fanatical mooks, same thing. Create Pit. Any wall spell. Web. Simply destroying the skeleton before it gets close.
A 10' radius isn't that big. All that time and effort into this one-trick-pony and it can be canceled out by simple circumstance or go disastrously if an enemy manages to trigger it at the wrong time.
You're missing the point.
I would totally have the NPC wizard pop up a hundred feet away (with Greater Invisibility of course) and cast a Dispel Magic on his bloody skeleton while he is adding his one hundredth Explosive Rune spell.
You described an event in which you created an NPC placed close to the PC with convenient defences, conveniently casting dispel magic when he placed a set number of explosive runes. You did not say the NPC heard of this PC before, you did not say he scried him, researched him, investigated/scouted him, watched and recorded him, etc. You just said he pops up and screws him over at just the right time.
Edit: Obviously you would do all this, but I'm just saying how you didn't mention it so it comes across as fiat.
How is that using fiat? He is walking around with a bomb that is set to go off. Explosive Runes are obvious; anyone with any Spellcraft at all is going to recognize them. An intelligent wizard (and how many have you met that aren't?) is going to capitalize on that.
He has always assumed that he will just have these skeletons walk up to the bad guys (or probably good guys based on this character) and then blow them up. You don't think his opponents are going to try to stop him? I am not going to have his opponents just stand around and let him. "Blow up the skeletons and everything around them" is the obvious opening move on round one.
Dispel Magic and Greater Invisibility at CL 1, random NPC Wizard that shows up conveniently just as the party is finishing preparations, who is conveniently using Greater Invisibility and is conveniently able to make the Perception check to see what the party is doing and conveniently manages to dispel the runes.
Yep, totally not Fiat.
It's a similar scenario as saying "So the Greater Invisible Assassin Pops up and Death Attacks the Wizard for no reason, he dies".
How is that using fiat? He is walking around with a bomb that is set to go off. Explosive Runes are obvious; anyone with any Spellcraft at all is going to recognize them. An intelligent wizard (and how many have you met that aren't?) is going to capitalize on that.
He has always assumed that he will just have these skeletons walk up to the bad guys (or probably good guys based on this character) and then blow them up. You don't think his opponents are going to try to stop him? I am not going to have his opponents just stand around and let him. "Blow up the skeletons and everything around them" is the obvious opening move on round one.
Dispel Magic and Greater Invisibility at CL 1, random NPC Wizard that shows up conveniently just as the party is finishing preparations, who is conveniently using Greater Invisibility and is conveniently able to make the Perception check to see what the party is doing and conveniently manages to dispel the runes.
Yep, totally not Fiat.
It's a similar scenario as saying "So the Greater Invisible Assassin Pops up and Death Attacks the Wizard for no reason, he dies".
or "a meteor crashes the land. It hit you. 2500 damage."
Wow, lots to respond to. Where to start. Reverse order.
Lord Twig - Umm... when? No seriously, you think Hex walks along side his ticking time bombs? Yes, I do assume they can walk up to the bad guys. Keep in mind my preferred method of detonation places the Explosive runes on capes the Skeletons wear and then having a party member read them from outside the 10ft. radius once the Skeleton closes in melee, this I have acknowledged would probably entitle the enemies to a reflex save. However, when I want to No-Save just take damage giving them a summon to read and then having it walk up to their face and read them will achieve a no save affect. In neither strategy is it easy for the enemy to know whats up or respond to before its way to late.
Gustavo: The reason symbols work is because you are adding an "each" that does not exist. The material component the spell calls for is one thing - A mixture of powdered opal and diamond worth 1,000 GP. There is no each. Its one powder made of two substances. Thus perfectly valid.
DrDeth - Fair enough on that last post, but even that says both ways are acceptable, so I'm willing to submit this for clarification. I will FAQ this here.
While a Blood Money not working with Symbol/Permanency/Simulacrum would be quite a blow to the Level 20 version of this character, all this version is his virtually guaranteed debuff tactic. Which he wasn't really relying to to off his enemies anyway. Though if the FAQ rules against Blood Money I'll correct the stub version, but even then Hex will still steamroll anything CR appropriate (and a few things that aren't).
You're missing the point.
I would totally have the NPC wizard pop up a hundred feet away (with Greater Invisibility of course) and cast a Dispel Magic on his bloody skeleton while he is adding his one hundredth Explosive Rune spell.You described an event in which you created an NPC placed close to the PC with convenient defences, conveniently casting dispel magic when he placed a set number of explosive runes. You did not say the NPC heard of this PC before, you did not say he scried him, researched him, investigated/scouted him, watched and recorded him, etc. You just said he pops up and screws him over at just the right time.
Ah, I see. No, you are missing my point. It could be any NPC that has ever heard of him. It could be at any time he is close to his own skeletons. It could be with any number of rune spells on the skeleton. Dispel Magic is obscenely common, as is Invisibility or Greater Invisibility. All the rest was just assumed.
I gave just one example. In an actual game he would get away with the exploding skeletons a few times, but then people are going to get wise.
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DrDeth - Fair enough on that last post, but even that says both ways are acceptable, so I'm willing to submit this for clarification. I will FAQ this here.
It says he made a rules mistake in method 2, but that if you happen to play that way and you enjoy it, it's fine too as long as you enjoy it. Which is a basic thing every developer say about the game since the inception of Rule 0.
But the non-mistake answer is the first one.
Lord Twig - Umm... when? No seriously, you think Hex walks along side his ticking time bombs? Yes, I do assume they can walk up to the bad guys. Keep in mind my preferred method of detonation places the Explosive runes on capes the Skeletons wear and then having a party member read them from outside the 10ft. radius once the Skeleton closes in melee, this I have acknowledged would probably entitle the enemies to a reflex save. However, when I want to No-Save just take damage giving them a summon to read and then having it walk up to their face and read them will achieve a no save affect. In neither strategy is it easy for the enemy to know whats up or respond to before its way to late.
Sorry, I started laughing at this. So your character and his walking bombs can walk up to my NPCs when then are all alone. With no mooks to get in the way. No defenses to protect them. But the NPCs absolutely can not catch the PCs when they are vulnerable. NO SIR! That is GM fiat! LOL!
That is like a barbarian saying, "Well, I will just walk up to the wizard and full attack him!" Same difference. This is PC fiat at the worst.
If you still have any exploding skeletons left after blowing up all the minions on the way to the BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy). I will totally have him cast a caster level 1 Dispel Magic on any remaining skeletons, because my NPCs aren't dumb.
Yep, totally not Fiat.
It's a similar scenario as saying "So the Greater Invisible Assassin Pops up and Death Attacks the Wizard for no reason, he dies".
Funny, that is exactly what happened to my wizard in a game. Assassin popped up, Death Attack, he died. Of course the rest of the party managed to chase after the assassin and kill him. They are a pretty competent group. And the assassin was not arbitrary. We were working against a powerful lich and he sent an assassin after us.
I certainly didn't cry, "GM fiat!"
Ah, I see. No, you are missing my point.
Given that Rynjin said the same thing I did, I think not.
It could be any NPC that has ever heard of him.
Joe Blogs, Commoner X; Sergeant Shoehorn, Warrior Y; <Anybody not a Wizard or Specifically Built Caster>, <Class> <Level>; can't do it, won't ever do it. It is emphatically not true.
Nevermind that you don't go around telling people how you pulled the rabbit out of the hat and adventurers with potentially evil alignments and explosives don't leave survivors.So if another Wizard wanted to learn how this particular Chessmaster Hex killed all those people in the dungeon and lived to tell the tale, he'd better have a well thought out way of finding out.
It could be at any time he is close to his own skeletons. It could be with any number of rune spells on the skeleton. Dispel Magic is obscenely common, as is Invisibility or Greater Invisibility. All the rest was just assumed.
But generic antithesis Wizards are not!
I gave just one example. In an actual game he would get away with the exploding skeletons a few times, but then people are going to get wise.
Yes, and they're going to investigate and research how it's done. Not just show up with Greater Invisibility and fire off Greater Dispel Magic intent to fail.
edit: I messed up tags... woops. Really messed them up.
Lord Twig - Umm... when? No seriously, you think Hex walks along side his ticking time bombs? Yes, I do assume they can walk up to the bad guys. Keep in mind my preferred method of detonation places the Explosive runes on capes the Skeletons wear and then having a party member read them from outside the 10ft. radius once the Skeleton closes in melee, this I have acknowledged would probably entitle the enemies to a reflex save. However, when I want to No-Save just take damage giving them a summon to read and then having it walk up to their face and read them will achieve a no save affect. In neither strategy is it easy for the enemy to know whats up or respond to before its way to late.Sorry, I started laughing at this. So your character and his walking bombs can walk up to my NPCs when then are all alone. With no mooks to get in the way. No defenses to protect them. But the NPCs absolutely can not catch the PCs when they are vulnerable. NO SIR! That is GM fiat! LOL!
That is like a barbarian saying, "Well, I will just walk up to the wizard and full attack him!" Same difference. This is PC fiat at the worst.
If you still have any exploding skeletons left after blowing up all the minions on the way to the BBGG (Big Bad Good Guy). I will totally have him cast a caster level 1 Dispel Magic on any remaining skeletons, because my NPCs aren't dumb.
Umm... They walk up to them in combat. I assume you have combats in your game and that during them people can move yes. Have you never moved up next to someone in combat? Explain because my post just has the skeletons acting as normal in combat. The NPCs can be groups, hell I prefer it (more in the blast range). I'd be more then willing to run Hex solo against a CR 9 encounter of your choice in a published Pathfinder Module or PFS Scenario to demonstrate if you'd like.
Furthermore, the Exploding Runes are not on the same object its cape*s* plural, the only object that would be destroyed is the cape the Explosive Rune is on. Which actually works in my favor, now the next cape is ready to be read as it is now exposed and then next and so on.
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Still waiting on that build you promised...yesterday I think it was...Yes yes, if you were GM you would Fiat things away in order to ignore that they exist.
It's really quite boring how often this "argument" comes up.
But Minecraaaaft.
I decided to show something a bit different than what's been shown before. No cheese, and no massive combat encounter breaking potential (though he can do stuff in combat), but it has (or will have) what I see as the power and sheer ANNOYANCE a Wizard can bring to the table, which is that he can invalidate certain forms of challenge outside of combat.
Spells like Teleport and Overland Flight destroy the concept of the overland trek part of the quest, Scrying expedites the process of gathering information on the enemy, and so on.
He's still got some in combat options (Haste, Invisibility, Black Tentacles, etc.) but his real strength is/will be in making the DM work harder to design non-combat encounters. Most of his wealth will be in Scribing Scrolls and probably crafting a few Wands, but I dunno if I want the other Crafting Feats, since that's another that people consider cheesy or whatever and have objections with.
Which, in my experience, take much more work and imagination to design, or were supposed to have other bits along the way, thus compounding the frustration.
Now, yeah, this game somewhat runs on those assumptions, but it's a big part of what makes designing higher level adventures such a chore compared to sub-10 adventures.
Ah, I see. No, you are missing my point.Given that Rynjin said the same thing I did, I think not.
Then the problem was indeed mine. I did not adequately explain myself. I will endeavor to do better.
It could be any NPC that has ever heard of him.Joe Blogs, Commoner X; Sergeant Shoehorn, Warrior Y; <Anybody not a Wizard or Specifically Built Caster>, <Class> <Level>; can't do it, won't ever do it. It is emphatically not true.
Nevermind that you don't go around telling people how you pulled the rabbit out of the hat and adventurers with potentially evil alignments and explosives don't leave survivors.
A wizard with Greater Invisibility and Dispel Magic hardly qualifies as "Specifically Built". It could be a rogue with stealth and a wand. Or a commoner with a scroll (kidding a bit here). Just about any sorcerer or cleric. Or a wizard. I threw in the invisibility, but all you really need is Dispel Magic and a Spellcraft check to tell you that you will set off every Explosive Rune on the target with a failed dispel check.
So if another Wizard wanted to learn how this particular Chessmaster Hex killed all those people in the dungeon and lived to tell the tale, he'd better have a well thought out way of finding out.
Pick a divination spell. Augury, divination, scrying, or whatever happens to be available without specifically modifying the NPCs he is up against. PCs can find out who is behind "the Evil", so can NPCs. I didn't see any defenses against divinations. And unlike Evil people, Good people actually care what happens to other people and will start looking into it. If you want to play an Evil campaign, be ready to face some well organized Good aligned opponents.
It could be at any time he is close to his own skeletons. It could be with any number of rune spells on the skeleton. Dispel Magic is obscenely common, as is Invisibility or Greater Invisibility. All the rest was just assumed.But generic antithesis Wizards are not!
Again, it was an example. There are any number of ways that an enemy can track down the PCs, and the PCs should be prepared to deal with it. Having several walking time bombs is not a good idea.
I gave just one example. In an actual game he would get away with the exploding skeletons a few times, but then people are going to get wise.Yes, and they're going to investigate and research how it's done. Not just show up with Greater Invisibility and fire off Greater Dispel Magic intent to fail.
After they investigate and research how it was done, that is exactly what they are going to do. Sure it will probably be followed up with a rain of arrows and a charge of some paladins (a wizard can bring friends with him when he teleports), but the opening move is pretty obvious.
About then would be a good time to try out that funny hat of his, assuming he survives the initial onslaught. Which is very much in doubt.
Umm... They walk up to them in combat. I assume you have combats in your game and that during them people can move yes. Have you never moved up next to someone in combat? Explain because my post just has the skeletons acting as normal in combat. The NPCs can be groups, hell I prefer it (more in the blast range). I'd be more then willing to run Hex solo against a CR 9 encounter of your choice in a published Pathfinder Module or PFS Scenario to demonstrate if you'd like.
Furthermore, the Exploding Runes are not on the same object its cape*s* plural, the only object that would be destroyed is the cape the Explosive Rune is on. Which actually works in my favor, now the next cape is ready to be read as it is now exposed and then next and so on.
At 9th level you don't face flying opponents? Or you never fight in a room smaller than 100' square? Never have any barriers between you and your foe?
If you have surprise and get the initiative, sure, you can have your skeletons move up next to some cannon fodder.
As for the capes... I thought you said they would run up, someone would read all the runes, and it would do "X times 6d6 damage" or something like that? If they are layered it is only going to do 6d6 damage and that's it. Moving the goal posts here.
How is the cape under the cape that explodes not getting destroyed? I guess from a pure gamist point of view the rules don't explicitly say they are, but it pushes the bounds of credibility.
Well, even in a pure gamist sense, items do take damage from AoE effects, so the capes under that WOULD be affected, and 6d6 damage is likely to annihilate cloth.
Lord help you if there is a revolving door!
Or a jet engine!
Huh, maybe its just me but:
"Unless the descriptive text for a spell (or attack) specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack."
The only time damage to them appears to come up in is:
"If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects)."
Rolling a natural 1 could happen admittedly and the capes may need to be something sturdier in the future. (Interestingly, the Summoned Monster explosive runes causes no save to be rolled... fortunate.)
These are the rules I'm using to stack capes, but if I'm missing something let me know, though I may opt for something more durable anyway.
Read the above Lord Twig. Explosive Runes explicitly destroys the object its on (in this case a cape). Thus Cape 1 is read and is destroyed. This makes Cape 2 Visible, which is then read, which make Cape 3 visible. This will get you to X * 6d6 damage.
Next, this build is perfectly comfortable fighting flying opponents, as there are a number of flying summons that can be created with a Summon Monster IV or V (or III in a pinch). Summon Monster II can be used to have a small Wind Elemental deliver Explosive Runes to face. Barriers are fine as well.
Also with a base of 13 and a max of 18 for Initiative... you must have some pretty fancy CR 9's to stand a chance of going first. Surprise is possible but unlikely at CR 9 thanks to Permanent Arcane Sight and See Invisibility, while being Flying and Invisible.
Go and pick out that CR 9 encounter like I asked and I'll demonstrate.
Spells like Teleport and Overland Flight destroy the concept of the overland trek part of the quest, Scrying expedites the process of gathering information on the enemy, and
that doesn't destroy adventures. Just changes them.
The AP I'm currently GMing, Way of the Wicked, finish at 20th level. We are currently at 18. Since level 10 or so the book doent give maps to the zones, just maps of the dungeons/localizations themselves. The author explicitly say "this castle is placed in a very far zone, full of dangers and with lots of potentially dangerous encounters. However, the PC are very likely to teleport right into it. So we'll ignore that."
The PC are currently taking down a realm, and they don't really have tha much encounters that can bother them. Sometimes the book even says "the knight commander is level 12, and he has several level 2 squires. The PC are level 18 and they will destrou this encounter with ease. However, thats not the problem, the problem is how they deal with the political repercusion of dismantling the order"
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that doesn't destroy adventures. Just changes them.
Which I said, in the rest of the post.
They don't destroy campaigns, but the spells' very existence forces the DM/adventure writer to write adventures with such powers in mind.
I've still not decided whether I like the convenience for the players, or dislike the way it invalidates certain staples of storytelling and forces adventures to be designed around spellcasters more than any other character classes.
I run a group of optimizers. Every class is a problematic "GOD" class. A party working together is extremely difficult to challenge.
I find the wizard is extremely hard to deal with against low save, melee types. He renders them pretty much useless with a few spells and the party rips the creature/s apart.
A lot of the effectiveness of the enemy depends on their intelligence. An intelligent enemy that has resources to prepare against a party can make life miserable for players because they are in essence dealing with a mirror image of themselves including the "GOD" caster.
I generally let the party have their fun for most encounters. Then I'll set up an occasional buzzsaw encounter to keep them on their toes. I do like to occasionally assassinate the "GOD" wizard. They don't always have the best Perception. Sometimes a sneaky guy can stick it to them good.
If it is possible to make adventures for Superman, it's possible to make adventures for god wizards.
How so? Most sure seem fine to me, andreww.