Yes, powerful tactics can be copied... what's your point? That the only thing that can fight Casters is other Casters? Cause I've been making that point all along. I really fail to see what point your making here as it seems completely meaningless to the discussion of whether or not Wizard can overshadow the rest of the party.
And this is not rules abuse. This is what the rules allow. I'm not twisting them or trying to bend them in shape way or form. This is the kind of power a Wizard can wield. As I stated on the first page, for a number of reasons; System Mastery, Gentleman's Agreement, Level of Game, Houserules, and Fun this level power is something that will not be seen.
(Also, all CR appropriate monsters are completely doomed.)
Very well. Let us play DM Fiat (all encounters tailored to block specific methods)
i'm not playing DM fiat. I'm telling you about how the real encounters were in the real publishrd APs
Mind Blank: even a wish will reveal nothing. Your wizard's spells will not help.
Swimming is the easy part. Finding a creature that doesn't want to be found, in the vastness of the sea, is the hard part.
except the jkraken doesn't have mind blank. You need to Fiat that, while swimming to find it in tge sea isn't trivualuzing it by default. No need of fiat.being able to swim allow you to do the quest, not trivialuze it.
I linked the character, complete with encumbrance info (you have yet to link your wizard). I have a heavy encumrance of 1600 lbs.
You are strong enough to carry the party? How much strength is that? And at what level? Because the druid's dinosaur is quite heavy...
at 20. This specific feat was done at 12, and your char has fly 9 by level 15
Won't work. Only 2 people knows that in the AP, the real father and a devil.Remember that Mind Blank? Your wizard gains no information.
except this guy wasn't able to mind blank. You need to fiat it.
Yes, the answer is using available game mechanics to their full effectiveness (and I could acquire and use a raise dead scroll). So, whatever.You'll need a raise dead, but whatever. This is the answer I was expecting. So the solution is trying to copy a spellcaster.
but it doesn't show any balance between casters and martials. Just shiw a way ttifake being caster, becouse somevstuff can only be done though casting
It's an army of bugbears, giants, ogres and trolls. 20.000 of them.Try to beat that with a single wizard of any level with me as the GM. You will loose without a DM fiat (or plot device).
As stated. GM competence is one of the variables.
admitely there was a lot plot device there (a 300-like cliff and the bugbear horde leader being part of tge plot). But in any case, extensive use of undead dragons,bloody gisnt skeletons, planar bindings, simulacrum, reverse gravity and other stuff was a credible way to do it
Because he is fanatically opposed to. It's the equivalent to go to the Pope, and tell him to give the keys of the city to the antichrist. +26 in diplomacy won't cut it.So DM Fiat. Rules are being ignored. The DC for the stated level of aversion is 25 + the character CHA. Even if the NPC has a 20 CHA, I still only need to roll a 4+
In tge rules section of diplomacy says "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature’s values or its nature, subject to GM discretion." This isn't DM fiat. It's common sense. You can't make a high cardenal of iomedae accept an asmodean paladin as regent with a DC 30 diplomacy check.
DM Fiat: Mind Blank and a Protection spell of the appropriate flavor. Your not going to influence him with magic.
they didnt. They plannar binded a trpet archon and forced it to tell him to vote yes as a matter of faith (then killed the archon)
Fine. How?Read the linked character sheet.
Fly 9 at 15 and poor maneuvering
Again, the way to do it, is being an spellcaster, or faking being oneYou mean by using resources available to any...
I mean faking being a caster. Yes,a commoner can do exactly the same things than a wizard with UMD and scrolls. It doesn't make them beung on par
To be fair, a Commoner doesn't usually have the dosh to buy scrolls and wands.
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Chessmaster Hex N Human Wizard (Conjurer 9)
HD 9d6 + 27 (Con) + 9 (Favored Class)
AC: 20 = 10 + 2 Dex + 4 Armor + 4 shieldBAB: 4
Fort:8 (+2 Con, +3 Res)
Ref:8 (+2 Dex, +3 Res)
Will:7 (-2 Wis + 3 Res)
Let us go to the bestiary guidelines for 9th level.
He has 70 hit points, 9th level expectations are 115, average damage from a high attack is 40, low attack 30, so two attacks is...70.And that is against an AC 23...which the wizard doesn't have even if we assume an attack happens during the 9 hours he has mage armor up (you only memorized it once...)
Average good save is 12, bad save 8...so you have three bad saves.
This god wizard is like most god wizards I have seen. All win or all fail build that can be awesome unless the bad guys target him...
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This god wizard is like most god wizards I have seen. All win or all fail build that can be awesome unless the bad guys target him...No comment on the sorcerer I posted yesterday then?
I like him. He seems very well built. Good job.
Are you saying that is a God Sorcerer? That I would disagree with.
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I saw it in 3.0, 3.5 the Cleric/Druid were worse and in PF we rarely hit the higher levels anyway as the game tends to fall apart around level 10 or so.I'd just like to know how many consider that a good thing, and how many consider that a bad thing.
I've GM'ed now five campaigns to completion, i.e. three to level 20, two to the end of the AP ( level 16 and 17, respectively ). I'd like to disagree that things "fall apart". There's a very noticeable shift in power dynamics, however, which happens around level 9-12 and even AP's deal pretty badly with that. It's up to the individual GM to react appropiately to how his players are handling their enhanced power potential.
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So DM Fiat. Rules are being ignored. The DC for the stated level of aversion is 25 + the character CHA. Even if the NPC has a 20 CHA, I still only need to roll a 4+No, rules being exactly followed. To quote the CRB: "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
The judgement call described is exactly the sort of judgement call that the rules specifically say the DM ought to be making, because (unlike magic) a sufficiently high Diplomacy score is not supposed to be able to replicate Dominate Monster. At all.
It's not "ignoring" the rules to say that it shouldn't work like that. It's ignoring the rules to say it should.
And yes, the GM can always foil any plan the PCs make. That was never in any question. The point remains that for the situations described, to foil the fighter the GM simply needs to do things like... well... following the rules for the skill in question. To foil the wizard, he needs to do things like giving out eighth level spell slots to krakens.
DM fiat is setting party objectives that have only a singular means of resolution. The DM saying, sorry only magic can solve this problem. I don't care if your character has heavily invested in the appropriate skills, knows all the right questions, and is willing to roleplay the encounter, I'm not even going to allow you to roll.
This is a problem of DM competence. It is not a question of wizards being overpowered.
The counter example is DM Fiat stating, "I'm sorry, all opponents are immune to magic." In such a world, the wizard would be the weakest member of the party, frequently being useless.
I've seen both extremes in games I've played. Neither is very fun for the players who are being told their characters are useless. Neither example has anything to do with how well designed a particular class happens to be.
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If I switched out a feat for Racial Heritage (Half Elf) and a level 3 spell for Paragon Surge there would literally be no situation which she could not be prepared for with a single level 7 spell slot and a swift action.
Then do that and post it.
What I see is a powerful character. Which is what I would expect from a 20th level character.
I also see a character that can just as easily lose at rocket tag as win at rocket tag.
My experience with sorcerers is different than my experience with Wizards, as they don't generally have the 15 minute workday issue. Neither is better, but I've found Sorcerers to be less likely be completely hosed than Wizards if they guessed wrong on a given encounter.
And unlike the glass cannon wizard posted earlier, you actually have invested in defense, as much as you are able.
So I give you credit (assuming it audits clean, which I will sit down and do later) and I agree you've posted a good build.
But I don't think it is a God.
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It isn't a matter of setting up encounters to counter or not counter for me. That is Scrodinger's encounter, which is just as unfair to you in the opposite direction.
Looking at your build and comparing it to bestiary expectations, you are way under on Hit Points, ahead by 3 on AC, the saves against your spells are way over expectations, but your saves are only about average for your level.
High attack damage is 120, low is 90, so you can likely survive a non-crit attack, and you took fortification to mitigate that as much as possible...
I think it is a good build. Much better than the glass cannon built earlier and more flexible than most I've seen posted. If I had a high level party, I would love to have your character join it.
I would also love to have the fighter posted earlier join it.
The glass cannon wizard...well I guess he can join for the few encounters he survives, but I don't know if it would be worth the diamond investment long term...
Actually, the Bloody Skeleton is from the Bestiary, not a third party book.
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On damaging attacks Emergency Force Sphere negates them pretty effectively. If you are targeted hit the Sphere and next turn Teleport away to your preferred combat range. At level 20 it has 400hp and 30 hardness so most creatures aren't going to get through it in a turn.
Which is an advantage a sorcerer has, as unless the wizard wants to memorize it lots of time, that spell is a one encounter only move.
Like I said, without doing a full audit I like your build.
So DM Fiat. Rules are being ignored. The DC for the stated level of aversion is 25 + the character CHA. Even if the NPC has a 20 CHA, I still only need to roll a 4+No, rules being exactly followed. To quote the CRB: "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion."
The judgement call described is exactly the sort of judgement call that the rules specifically say the DM ought to be making, because (unlike magic) a sufficiently high Diplomacy score is not supposed to be able to replicate Dominate Monster. At all.
It's not "ignoring" the rules to say that it shouldn't work like that. It's ignoring the rules to say it should.
And yes, the GM can always foil any plan the PCs make. That was never in any question. The point remains that for the situations described, to foil the fighter the GM simply needs to do things like... well... following the rules for the skill in question. To foil the wizard, he needs to do things like giving out eighth level spell slots to krakens
DM fiat is setting party objectives that have only a singular means of resolution. The DM saying, sorry only magic can solve this problem. I don't care if your character has heavily invested in the appropriate skills, knows all the right questions, and is willing to roleplay the encounter, I'm not even going to allow you to roll.
This is a problem of DM competence. It is not a question of wizards being overpowered.
But that's not what happened. You can find the kraken with your swimming ioun stone. It's a long quest, probably a couple undersea encounters, etc. It can be done without magic. Magic just trivialize it .
Same goes with the zealot LG member of the council. You could solve it with skills (kill him and disguise as him,outspoke him in a diplomacy contest in the vote to convince the rest of the council, or just blackmail and secure enough votes so his own vote can't matter. Those are balid ways. Magic just trivialized it.Same goes with knowing which one was tge father of the archenemy. The players could figure it by their own, through hints in the adventure. They could finally learn about it later in the game, asking the devil in question that made the bargain. It's just that Vision allowed them to know it sooner (they were already suspicious about it, that's why they casted the spell), and gain certain advantage about it.
Mundanes can sokve most of those. Magic trivialize it. It's just like teavelling to give a message to a distant kingdom. A 9th level fighter can do it. But if Miguel Strogoff were a wizard, his novel would be two pages long, because of teleport
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As a Wizard I would be looking to take Preferred Spell at least two or three times. One for my Spell Perfection spell, one for Emergency Force Sphere and one for some added utility if I could afford it. EFS is simply that strong.On damaging attacks Emergency Force Sphere negates them pretty effectively. If you are targeted hit the Sphere and next turn Teleport away to your preferred combat range. At level 20 it has 400hp and 30 hardness so most creatures aren't going to get through it in a turn.
Which is an advantage a sorcerer has, as unless the wizard wants to memorize it lots of time, that spell is a one encounter only move.
Like I said, without doing a full audit I like your build.
Not making excuses, but I wonder if it was one of those spells not fully vetted by the Dev team, considering it was in a paperback rather than a hardcover.
That Cheliax book has had a couple of odd things come out of it.
Actually, the Bloody Skeleton is from the Bestiary, not a third party book.Ah, my mistake there. That's what I get for putting too much faith in the d20PFSRD. :-p
That said, that's still not useful for more than saving the 25 gp per Hit Die of the skeleton created (which doesn't matter if you're loading it with explosive runes), and them coming back after an hour is useless for a single combat.
after you start killing old dragons, bloody skeleton becomes much more fun :)
Chessmaster Hex N Human Wizard (Conjurer 9)
HD 9d6 + 27 (Con) + 9 (Favored Class)
AC: 20 = 10 + 2 Dex + 4 Armor + 4 shieldBAB: 4
Fort:8 (+2 Con, +3 Res)
Ref:8 (+2 Dex, +3 Res)
Will:7 (-2 Wis + 3 Res)
Let us go to the bestiary guidelines for 9th level.
He has 70 hit points, 9th level expectations are 115, average damage from a high attack is 40, low attack 30, so two attacks is...70.And that is against an AC 23...which the wizard doesn't have even if we assume an attack happens during the 9 hours he has mage armor up (you only memorized it once...)
Average good save is 12, bad save 8...so you have three bad saves.
This god wizard is like most god wizards I have seen. All win or all fail build that can be awesome unless the bad guys target him...
First of all... those are his spells known... not prepped. Also I see you haven't read his gear section. His Mage Armor lasts 20 (28 if he actually is concerned enough full buff) hours (how can people miss this seriously?) He usually casts it the day before so if he's adventuring it doesn't eat a slot unless he feels he'll need it the next day. His first level slot the day after is usually going to Shield. On top of that he casts Fly and Invisibility before actually getting near a dangerous situation. (Extended via Rod, he has the books to extend Summon Monster) Dropping the wall and triggering X Save or Sucks (Where X is however many you have made to this point.) Of course he's not just relying on his AC, you need to factor in Blur and Mirror Image. These are better defenses then AC the higher level you go. Also, he has the Tinfoil Hat trick running thanks to Permanency and Shrink Item which allows him to segregate himself completely from a fight. (And then Teleport away if things go south.)
As to his damage... his damage is closer to 66d6 and even this approximate. If the situation calls for it this can be virtually as high as needed. A single week of Explosive Rune prep gives Hex 77 Explosive Runes for a total of 462d6 damage (and if he doesn't use all of that, which is unlikely it carries over further adding to his total) Which does not cost him a spell slot thanks to Explosive Runes and 66d6 is only 1 day offs worth which seems a more reasonable assessment of his base damage.
Also your neglecting to count in his Bloody Skeletons (the Level 20 version has 4 Bloody Skeleton Pit Fiends). Hex has a control pool of 28 HD, which gives us 14 HD worth of Bloody Skeletons, which probably means he has two 14 HD Bloody Skeletons. (Please note Command Undead.)
Next are his summons, all of which can be extended and benefit from his being a Conjurer for another 4 rounds of duration. Casting Summons doesn't break invisibility, which combines well with the fact that enemies are almost guaranteed to be both Slowed and at -4 on attack rolls and saves from the Symbols. Keep in mind, Hex can Haste 10 creatures at once (enough to get his 2 skeletons, 1d3+(1) monsters off the IV list from Summon Monster V and his party members (including himself).
Finally on the matter of HP and Saves, I'll be blunt this is a pared down version of a Level 20 character and his gear choices reflect that. If I were to toy around with the Wealth at this level (I could save 14,250k by buying a Wand of Death Knell instead of an Ioun stone and my Blessed Book doesn't actually pay for itself at this point) with 19k (38k worth of Wondrous Items) I'm pretty sure I can come up with fixes for both those.
I must say I am terribly disappointed with your editing, you missed a number of his abilities and factored in virtually nothing. If you ignore all of Hex's Permanent Spells/His Skeletons/His Summons then its no wonder you can't see what all the hubbub is about.
20 minutes (Seriously, read the sheet! You guys are making me want to swap out Orange Ioun Stone for Wand of Death Knell so I have tons and tons of wealth to patch his saves/hp and then you all would have an excuse to miss the +1 Caster Level), 28 if he's concerned enough to full buff. To be blunt, yes 20 minutes (200 rounds) should be plenty of time. Prior to entering the dungeon (dungeon here means "where the adventure is located", even it that is the Wharfs) cast these spells, and start counting rounds. If you manage to go through 200 before needing to head to another location I would be very very surprised. Keep in mind Hex can be very spell slot independent when it comes to offense so if he really really felt the need, he could prep mostly defensive spells and summons and rely on his Explosive Runes/Skeletons/Permanent Symbols.
My reading? My reading is exactly what the spell says. The fact that I put them on my skeletons and send them into melee where my enemies can trigger them (and thus get no save), or on the back of the skeletons so one of my party members can read it from more then 10 ft away (arguably the opponent gets a save here). If I really really want to drop the hammer on something I get a high hp summon to walk to the enemy and read them directly in their face (I'd say the opponent is close enough to read what with it being literally up in front of them and thus get no save). Keep in mind that all creatures in 10 ft. Radius need to make a DC 23 (Effectively 27 thanks to Permanent Symbol of Pain) or their also going to down for the count.
Any pushback on this account is quite frankly extremely silly. I'm using the rules, not twisting them.
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On top of that he casts Fly and Invisibility before actually getting near a dangerous situation. (Extended via Rod, he has the books to extend Summon Monster)They are only going to last 18 minutes extended from the rod. That's a fairly short adventuring day.
It is ok, he also knows exactly when the dangerous situation is going to occur...not to mention all the time in the world to prep everything perfectly each and every time. Does your GM also let you change your spell selection mid battle?
Anzyr has done more to help the anti-god side of the argument that I ever could, so I hope he continues to post more about his wizard.
On top of that he casts Fly and Invisibility before actually getting near a dangerous situation. (Extended via Rod, he has the books to extend Summon Monster)They are only going to last 18 minutes extended from the rod. That's a fairly short adventuring day.It is ok, he also knows exactly when the dangerous situation is going to occur...not to mention all the time in the world to prep everything perfectly each and every time. Does your GM also let you change your spell selection mid battle?
Anzyr has done more to help the anti-god side of the argument that I ever could, so I hope he continues to post more about his wizard.
Hardly, you've demonstrating nothing but complete ignorance of what is actually written on my sheet and disregarded the content of my posts. He cast fly and invisibility before heading to a dungeon or when he expects trouble. If he's going to deal with those Giants at the Borderland Keep, he's not going to cast Fly and Invisibily until... and this might just be me, the keep is vision. If you can't clear such a structure in 200 rounds, you must be taking 20 on a lot of search checks (do that later!)
Like I said to Andreww (who also evidently has not read my posts and keeps showing how much he hasn't read), Hex is remarkably spell slot independent. If needed he could prepare nothing but defense spells and summons. You seem to be failing to grasp the idea that a prepared caster can... well prepare. I'm not going to prep 3-4 snowballs in the Artic North, I'm not going to prep Black Tentacles if I'm going to the Keep on the Borderlands to investigate giants.
All your doing Ciretose is making your position look bad when you haven't properly read the sheet and ignore the spell slot interdependency of Hex.
Anyway Andreww, on your next set of mistaken assumptions. My allies can presumably make the perception check to read writing from outside of the 10ft. radius around my skeleton (how bad is your eyesight?). You also didn't address my Suicide Bomber Summon Monster tactic so I'll assume you have (wisely) accepted that as valid.
Also, I don't think you've read the thread, because I very clearly know how to make Blood Money work for me. That being said I must issue a correction to my sheet. Blood Rage should be included amongst Hex's first level spells at the cost of 5 gp (leaving him with 10). It got left out when I was paring him down and calculating prices for his additional spells. Since you evidently didn't read last page, I'll recopy how to get 31 (enough to do 15,000gp)
For level 9 - 9 Base + 10 Blood Rage + 8 Inherent + 4 from Bull's Strength get us to 31 and only costs you 2,000 gold. (1,000 if you took Craft Wondrous... you should have).
Ya... that 1k gp cost.... its killing my 9th level WBL.
Please though Ciretose and Andreww continue posting the casting side of the argument thanks you.
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Anzyr has done more to help the anti-god side of the argument that I ever could, so I hope he continues to post more about his wizard.Not really although he is certainly using some of the more extreme stuff wizards can do in order to make his point when he really doesn't need to.
I am firmly in the camp that casters outstrip pure martial characters from early on, around level 7 or so when level 4 spells start showing up. half casters really start to fall behind at level 11 when 6th level spells are available. Everyone falls behind at level 15 when spell perfection and level 8 spells are capable of rendering whole encounters irrelevant.
Personally I would take a party composed of nothing but full casters over one with any fighters, rogues or monks any day of the week. A group consisting of a battlefield control wizard or sorcerer, melee/summoning druid, battle oracle and casting cleric will perform far better than anything with a fighter or rogue in it assuming an equal level of player skill simply due to the increased number of options.
I don't particularly disagree with most of this from an offensive perspective, as they are by nature much more flexible than other classes. But they also have issues with fragility, which is why it is a team game.
What I do disagree with is the myth of the uber invincable caster (although the emergency force spell does seem somewhat broken, thanks for pointing that out...) and what I find is that table variance is exposed when builds appear.
Maybe great theorycrafters I think are people who can't find actual games...
My reading? My reading is exactly what the spell says. The fact that I put them on my skeletons and send them into melee where my enemies can trigger them (and thus get no save), or on the back of the skeletons so one of my party members can read it from more then 10 ft awayWhy would your enemy be spending their time reading strange books plastered to a bloody skeleton when said skeleton is trying to tear off their head?
Also why would your allies go in to read them when they have to be in the blast radius to do so, are your allies normally suicidal? The spell specifies, or at the very least very strongly suggests, that close enough to read them means adjacent.
Seriously Wizards and more than strong enough to not need people trying to pull crap like this to autowin. Its no more relevant to real games than unlimited simulacrum man.
the explosive rune can be a big capital A. it's hard not to read that. And yes, this is the kind of spells that should be adressed, just like simulacrum and many others
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Anzyr has done more to help the anti-god side of the argument that I ever could, so I hope he continues to post more about his wizard.Not really although he is certainly using some of the more extreme stuff wizards can do in order to make his point when he really doesn't need to.
I am firmly in the camp that casters outstrip pure martial characters from early on, around level 7 or so when level 4 spells start showing up. half casters really start to fall behind at level 11 when 6th level spells are available. Everyone falls behind at level 15 when spell perfection and level 8 spells are capable of rendering whole encounters irrelevant.
Personally I would take a party composed of nothing but full casters over one with any fighters, rogues or monks any day of the week. A group consisting of a battlefield control wizard or sorcerer, melee/summoning druid, battle oracle and casting cleric will perform far better than anything with a fighter or rogue in it assuming an equal level of player skill simply due to the increased number of options.
I don't particularly disagree with most of this from an offensive perspective, as they are by nature much more flexible than other classes. But they also have issues with fragility, which is why it is a team game.
What I do disagree with is the myth of the uber invincable caster (although the emergency force spell does seem somewhat broken, thanks for pointing that out...) and what I find is that table variance is exposed when builds appear.
Maybe great theorycrafters I think are people who can't find actual games...
I've DMed several 1-20 3.5 campaigns as well as a 3.5 E6 campaign that went to somewhere around 20 bonus feats from Level 1 and culminated in fight with an Advanced Nightwalker. I've DMed a few PF one-shots, played several low level PF campaigns (Vivisectionist Alchemist modeled after Izaya Orihara...) though I admit I am presently a player in a HERO 5E campaign with my group (Think Fantasy Kenshin). You seem to believe that because I realize how strong casters are, can provide examples of how strong they are, I am somehow compelled to play on in every game I am in. In that case, I redirect you to my original post (seriously please read these they are kind of important) which I'll copy here (for like the third time).
The only reason people don't see how truly overpowered the Wizard can be is due to a number of reasons that I'll list in order of likeliness that you haven't seen a Wizard that tells the universe to go play in the corner while the grown-ups are talking.
1. System Mastery - Most people don't have the system mastery to play an all powerful wizard. I mean ya its cool to have infinite Simulacrums without impacting your wealth by level, but be honest how many people that play do you think know how to do that?
2. Gentleman's Agreement - Once we realize how limited the number of players with the system mastery to play an all power wizard is, we have to take into account Gentleman's Agreements. Sure I could sit down at my friends game and play a Wizard that obviates everything he prepared, but you know what'd that make me? A jerk. Most players who have the requisite system mastery realize this and thus opt not to show up to a game with a character who can say "A God am I" and be completely correct.
3. Level of Game - Let me preface this by being perfectly clear about something... low level wizards are still very strong. But most players do not play games at the highest of levels where the Wizard reaches the zenith of his arbitrary power. If Wizards at the tables you play are only making it to 12th level or so... your missing 8 levels of quadratic power.
4. Houserules - When people talk about the all powerful Wizard, their talking about the kind of Wizard that you can play with the rules that are in the books. That being said, please note that just because a GM can say "Sorry Anzyr, even though the rules let you make infinite Simulacrums of yourself, in my game you can't." does not make Wizard any weaker. The very fact that you need to houserule that (or preferably get a Gentlemen's Agreement) indicates that the class is so strong that you need to change the rules to accommodate it.
5. Fun - I had originally intended to place this higher on the list, but its subjective so I ended up throwing it here. The last reason you don't see all-powerful wizards is because quite frankly its not much fun to play one. Half the fun of the game is knowing that the outcome of a fight depends on the falling of a few dice and well... all powerful wizards don't play dice. Playing the game with the certainty that you will always win gets pretty boring as anyone who has played a game on "god mode" can tell you.
See that list? The reasons in 3.5 and PF campaigns I play in don't run into all-powerful caster issues are due mostly to numbers 2 and 5. The fact that I can do all those tricks and don't though, doesn't change how strong Casters are.
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Oh Anzyr...
Let's see...I've already pointed out how fragile your character is, let's move on to the audit.
I wasn't aware that 18+2+2+2 was 26. Where I come from it's 24...
You didn't pay for any of your spells other than those listed, so we can assume those are all the spells you know. Your Symbols of pain are 1000gp each...didn't see those listed...and your GM is pretty lazy to let people not look at them until you want them to...how do they know where not to look, exactly?
Your skeletons cost GP each, which isn't much except when you add the 1000gp symbol to them...that will get expensive...
Should I keep going?
I don't particularly disagree with most of this from an offensive perspective, as they are by nature much more flexible than other classes. But they also have issues with fragility, which is why it is a team game.
I don't think a group of 4 clerics is fragile. And a group of battle oracle, druid, ckeric and wizard is damn tough.
We are planning to play rise of runelirds with a party of only wizards. I'm not sure if it's doable, but I'm sure I wouldn't even try with full fighters or full rogues
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Well he does have a 9 strength...
Like I said, he is doing more to help my side of the argument than I ever could.
Now to the reasonable person on that side of the argument...
@Andreww - I think some mistakes have been made with regards to spells like the one you listed and things like persistent spells. But I think overall the formula is full casters have great power with great vulnerability, which as far as I have seen remains true, even well built and at high levels.
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I don't particularly disagree with most of this from an offensive perspective, as they are by nature much more flexible than other classes. But they also have issues with fragility, which is why it is a team game.I don't think a group of 4 clerics is fragile. And a group of battle oracle, druid, ckeric and wizard is damn tough.
We are planning to play rise of runelirds with a party of only wizards. I'm not sure if it's doable, but I'm sure I wouldn't even try with full fighters or full rogues
If you build a party for synergy, you can do it with pretty much any class. People get caught up in doing the same thing, when ideally the party should have variance.
I kind of want to set up a thread where people make four of the same class as a party to see what we can come up with.
I think you can do it with anything but maybe cavaliers :)
Post a build, they say.
Here is my build: Commoner 20, with 20 ranks of UMD. There: just as powerful as any spellcaster, which is why everyone is lining up to play commoners ftw.
