what about my build?It was very nice.
Trolls came and ate it.
It was very tasty.
oh crap.
So let's ccntinue debating about things that will never happen in 99.99% of the tables (due to houserule, gentlemen agreement, or direct gm ban) like blood money-> wish, instead of real problems with real spells that get used, like feeblemind, fireball, maze, resilient sphere+anu damage zone, etc
I am just a humble messenger.
Repost it maybe. (Yes, repost it: people are lazy. Don't expect them to scroll back for it).
Well, I already posted my preferred fixes for incorporeal undead apocalypses, chain binding and summon monster spamming exploits, scry-and-die tactics, and decks of explosive runes.
In our home game, Jess Door came up with a beautifully elegant fix for at-will detect magic as a magic trap detector: simply change the range to "touch."
I also advocate removing find the path and discern location from everyone's spell lists and making it them pregressively higher-level ranger class features instead.
Plane shift would be toned WAY down if the tuning fork thingies you need were minor artifacts instead of easily-crafted doodads (e.g., Lovecraft's Through the Gates of the Silver Key).
Overland flight and so on would be less game-breaking if a simple hit with an arrow or something necessitated a difficult Fly check (say DC 10 + total damage dealt that round) to avoid plummeting to the ground.
Spells and magic items providing skill bonuses should all be re-set to enhancement bonuses, and they should be +1 per caster level max, with a cap equal to the number of dice evocation spells are capped at for the same spell level (invisibility would provide a +1 enhancement bonus/level, max +5, to Stealth, instead of a flat +20. Then it would be really good to cast on rogues and less useful on yourself.)
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So we know that if you aren't with 10 feet of the runes, you aren't close enough to read them, per the spell. And they only effect you if you are within 10 feet, in which case you get a reflex save.See this is your problem. You are reading the spell the way *you* want it to be, not what the spell actually says.
The spell does indicate that being next to the runes is close enough to read them. It does not indicate that is the only distance they can be read at. There is nothing to indicate that the reader *must* be next to them to be able read them. Please note I have indicated in these circumstances the enemies would get a Reflex Save as the spell requires (since the capes are not really "next" to them). Also, Hex does not read them because he can't. Either a party member reads them, or a summon.
Even assuming you had a point, the Suicide Summon trick will work because the Summon and the runes are most definitely next to you.
Actually, I'm reading it as it is written. You are reading into it that you can put it on a billboard that can be read from miles away...which is fine because if you aren't in 10 feet...who cares. That is the effective range...only you wave that part away and have the runes teleporting and exploding I guess to the eyes of the reader...
This is the kind of creative reading no amount of clarification will fix.
Clearly the intent of the spell (and the wording of the spell) is if you read it it blows up, hurting you and anyone within 10 feet of you who doesn't make a reflex save.
It doesn't say that reading it from more than 10 feet away means you are out of the blast radius. It also doesn't say dead people can't take actions. Because it seems obvious that exploding runes explode, not teleport to the reader to hurt them then back to the 10 foot radius around them...
So once again you add an exploit that isn't there, because you want it to be there.
Don't mind me I'm just replying to someone I've already forgotten the name off scrolling through this page.
I will give you this. If the Balor caught one of the party members alone, he would waste them. A single Balor is more powerful than most PCs by themselves at that level save for perhaps a powerful 9th level spells caster run by an experienced player.
Umm...yes.
Are you saying a single Balor should be a massive threat for 4-5 demigod level heroes?
Because that's not how encounters are supposed to work. Single targets are always a bad idea against a party, because being able to take 4 times as many actions as the boss means you have the advantage. That one doesn't have to do with spells or anything, it's to do with action economy.
Which means you need minions. And by minions, I do not mean "A CR 5 vs your level 17 party". This is a BALOR. He's a general of the Demonic forces.
He probably has a vanguard of Glabrezu and Nalfeshnee around him at all times, which while not a threat 1 on 1 vs the party, in equal numbers with a Balor backing them up can be quite a threat. Having to make 3-4 DC 22 Will saves while the things can still full attack you is no laughing matter.
And of course, the Balor himself is no joke either, both in melee and from afar.
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Well, I already posted my preferred fixes for incorporeal undead apocalypses, chain binding and summon monster spamming exploits, scry-and-die tactics, and decks of explosive runes.
In our home game, Jess Door came up with a beautifully elegant fix for at-will detect magic as a magic trap detector: simply change the range to "touch."
I also advocate removing find the path and discern location from everyone's spell lists and making it them pregressively higher-level ranger class features instead.
Plane shift would be toned WAY down if the tuning fork thingies you need were minor artifacts instead of easily-crafted doodads (e.g., Lovecraft's Through the Gates of the Silver Key).
Overland flight and so on would be less game-breaking if a simple hit with an arrow or something necessitated a difficult Fly check (say DC 10 + total damage dealt that round) to avoid plummeting to the ground.
Spells and magic items providing skill bonuses should all be re-set to enhancement bonuses, and they should be +1 per caster level max, with a cap equal to the number of dice evocation spells are capped at for the same spell level (invisibility would provide a +1 enhancement bonus/level, max +5, to Stealth, instead of a flat +20. Then it would be really good to cast on rogues and less useful on yourself.)
And I sincerely hope one of the first things the Devs do is look at Kirthfinder to steal good ideas.
As well as any other places good ideas are stored.
It Takes a Droid.
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init ; Senses darkvision 60 ft, See invisibility, Blindsense 60, Perception +30
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Defense Fire Immunity, Immune to Paralysis and Sleep.
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AC 51, touch 20, flat-footed 40(+8 armor, +6 shield, +5 Dex, +9 natural, +5 deflection, +1 luck, +1 insight, +5 defending bonus)
hp 195 (20d6+120) + Empowered False Life
Fort +18, Ref +17, Will +21
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft, Fly 60 ft
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 20):
9 (7/day) Shapechange (b), Mage's disjuntion, Dominate Monster (DC 35)
8 (8/day) Greater Shadow Evocation(DC 30), Moment of Prescience, Maze, Irresistible Dance (DC 34) (b), Polymorph Any Object (DC 30), Greater Planar Binding
7 (8/day) Vision, Greater Shadow Conjuration (DC 29), Spell Turning, Hungry Darkness, Form of the dragon II (b)
6 (8/day) True Seeing, Mislead (b), Flesh to Stone (DC 28), Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Suggestion (DC 32)
5 (8/day) Telekinesis, Feeblemind (DC 33), Teleport, Wall of Force, Spell Resist (b) Sirocco (DC 27) Fickle Winds
4 (9/day) Dragon's Breath (DC 26), Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Confusion (DC 30), Resilient Sphere, Enervation, Cause Fear (b)
3 (9/day) Magic Circle against Evil, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Fly (b) , Haste, Fireball (DC 25),
2 (9/day) glitterdust (DC24), Resist Energy, False Life, Mirror Image, Command Undead (DC 24), Invisibility, spectral hand
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Shield, Grease, Identify, Disguise Self, true strike, Snowball
0 (at will) Arcane Mark, Disrupt Undead, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close Detect Magic, Mending, Prestidigitation (DC 22)
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Statistics
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Str 8, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 34
Base Atk +10; CMB +11; CMD 31
Feats: Maximize Spell, Intensify, Elemental Spell (cold), Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Spell Perfection (Feeblemind)
Traits: Magical Lineage (Feeblemind), Wayang Spell Hunter (fireball)
Skills: Bluff +36 Intimidate +36, Fly +16, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Perception +30, Sense Motive +26, Spellcraft +23, Use Magic Device +17
Languages Common, Draconic, fey , Celestial , Ignam, Terram
Equipment: +5 Mithral Spiked Buckler (+5 defending spike), Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Dex and Con) +6, Bracers of armor +8, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (1 @ 19 lbs), Headband of mental superiority +6, Manual of bodily health +5, , Ring of protection +5, Tome of leadership and influence +5, Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, +1 AC ioun stone, +1 CL ioun Stone, Stone of Good Luck, Mnemonic Vestment x2, Scroll of Contingency, Scroll of Time Stop, Scroll of Mind Blank, Lesser Rod of Empower x3, Gloves of Storing, Master's Staff of Necromancy, Efficient Quiver, Lesser Rod of Quickening , Rod of Silent Spell.
I didn't get any of the ussual cheese offenders (simulacrum, blood money, explosive runes, animate dead, animate object, etc) except for Plannar Binding, which is just too cool to have with a huge CHA, and it can be kept under control just with Gentlemen's Agreement (ie: no chainbinding efreets for infinite wishes and other sheanigangs) Also left out the emergency Sphere, for similar reasons
Few tricks:
Versus other spellcasters, the key spell is Feeble Mind. She can cast a DC 38 (including the -5) Persistent quickened Feeblemind as a 8th level spell, ussually after a MAximized Enervation as 8th level spell. That means 2 DC 42 Will saves in a row, of combat ends, except contingencies (pun intended). Other option (with different feats) is casting a Heightened 9th level persistent (through the staff) Feeblemind, with DC 40, after a quickened maximized (with the staff) Enervation, for two DC 44 will saves, or combat ends.Some other nice tricks: vs Fighter types, DC 35 Dominate Monster (which can be combined with a quickened Cause Fear for the -2 to saves shake, or with Enervation)
Irresistible Dance + Quickened Spectral Hand means instant victory, even if Save is made.Vs brute guys with low Reflex: Hungry Darkness + Quickened Resilient Sphere, or just Maze.
Vs guys with low Fort: Flesh to stone (although normally a Feeblemind is better vs those)Vs big groups: Wall of Force, Confusion, Resilient Sphere + Hungry Darkness, Mass Suggestion, etc.
Against the Mind affecting Immune creatures (assuming I can't use Command Undead), I can use fireball.
Maximized Intensified Empowered (rod) Fireball do 105+1/2(15d6+15) as 6th level spell. Combining it with a quickened Intensifed Empowered (rod) fireball as 7th lvel spell that does 1.5*(15d6+15), it means an average of 240 damage in 20' radious. You could swap it to cold damage if needed. It's not Martial Level damage, but it's not bad for a backup weapon.
Against weapon-users, Quickened True Strike + Telekinesis does wonders. It also work as grapple and bull rush in some circumstances.In the deffesive Side: I have 51 AC, not couting Cover (from an interposing hand or similar effect casted with Shadow Conjruation or Shadow Evocation). That means 55 AC with cover, so the Tarrasque need 18+ to hit me, Moment of Prescience not withstanding. I can also ignore a crit or sneak per day, so I think my melee defense is decently covered. My Mirror Images, with AC 46/51, last for a lot, actually. Fickle Winds protects vs arrows. Spell Turning helps vs spells. Mage's Disjunction help to Unbuff people.
I'm inmune to Divination (great combo with Greater Invisibility) if I use a Mnemonic Vestment+Mindblank Scroll, I can fly naturally, I'm fire immune, have Blindsense, paralysis immunity, good perception, a few decent skills, most bases covered.
I only took 2 mnemonic Vestment, and a few Scrolls. The Wardrobe of Mnemonic Vestments is quite cheesy too, so I kept it to a minimum.
I removed one of the Inherent bonus books to make room for some funky stuff like scrolls. I'm pretty sure I can squeeze a bit more the WBL, but it's just fine for a quick experiment I think.
Now tell me what you think about it, Ciretose.
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I'd have to qualify this with a "sort of." That is:
- Most mechanical issues occurred when certain forms of metamagic were plentifully available AND characters were able to effectively zero out the costs of them. So this may not really count, as it's more of a general issue that can apply to any build.
...however, most of the time the issue, if it did occur, was an out of character one. That is:
- Wizard Entitlement Syndrome. I have had and continue to have great wizard players. However, some GOD wizards seem to take the name a little too seriously and it becomes unpleasant for everyone else. This is an issue that needs resolved out of character.
- Scene Hogging. Summoning many, many creatures slows the game down to a crawl and easily takes play time away from other players. This is an issue that also needs resolved out of character.
- Stepping on Toes. A caster has a number of summons up and is commanding them to use abilities which are mostly within the prevue of other classes. While these characters probably appreciate the help, the player should be cognizant of stepping on too many toes...and taking the shine away from what other players built their characters to do. This is also an issue that should be resolved out of character...but potentially from a few brainstorms as well, if there's ever a 2.0.
In sum, I'd say there are easily abusable areas which can hurt the game socially. Whether these need addressed, and how, is something for brainstorming down the line...but for now much of it seems to be an out of character issue.
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what about my build?
I must have missed it in the clutter, sorry. Can you repost or link to it?
EDIT: I see it now.
Looks good. Good defense, good spells, decent saves, versatile. I need to look at the AC, as that seems high, but maybe not. Hit points are a bit low for 20th, but you can take a hit or two, particularly with the AC.
What do you think it can do, if anything, that is "broken"?
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what about my build?I must have missed it in the clutter, sorry. Can you repost or link to it?
I just reposted it for him! Gah! Droids have to do everything around here!
*falls over and undersized feet kick at the air pathetically*
Rest assured if a Developer or FAQ were to clarify it I would be on board with the ruling.
Why are people still debating blood money? My previous post links to the line from the Core Rules which explicitly states that you must manipulate the material components of a spell to cast a spell. That's the same sentence in the Core Rules which says you must gesture to cast a spell with somatic components and speak to cast a spell with verbal components. So you can't argue that the manipulation of the material components only happens in the first round of casting without also arguing that somatic and verbal components only happen in the first round of casting.
Per the Core Rules, blood money doesn't work on a spell with a multiple-round casting time.
So can we all just agree that blood money doesn't work on spells with multiple-round casting times unless you are duplicating them with wish spells and move on?
On an unrelated note regarding explosive runes, is there somewhere in the rules where it states what sort of action it is to read text?
what about my build?I must have missed it in the clutter, sorry. Can you repost or link to it?
EDIT: I see it now.
Looks good. Good defense, good spells, decent saves, versatile. I need to look at the AC, as that seems high, but maybe not. Hit points are a bit low for 20th, but you can take a hit or two, particularly with the AC.
What do you think it can do, if anything, that is "broken"?
I dont think 220+hp are low for a spellcaster (add false life)
I don't think it's "broken" in the cheesy way. No infinite simulacrum or other stuff. But it's able to stomp every encounter with a party of three commoners.
DC 40+ will save x2 or autowin vs spellcasters.
Very high dominate monster.
Can attack tge three saves with a Save or Lose spell at DC that nearly nobody can save with they weak save.
Trueseeing immune invisibility.
240+ fireballs as backup weapon.
Can only be hit with 20s by Balors and other CR 20 monsters.
Battle control spells, some of them no save (maze) or save doesnt matter (dance)
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Not according to the horror stories people tell on here about the tables they are "trapped" at...
Sometimes the chains that prevent us from being free are more mental than physical.
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Not according to the horror stories people tell on here about the tables they are "trapped" at...What do you mean? Doesn't everyone?I suspect the Toz the Great and terrible can pick his group :)Well...and the poor Pathfinder Society folks...I never asked for your pity.
I was once shackled to a gaming table and given nothing but weak broth and wormy bread. I was flogged for impertinence when I asked to be allowed to roll my own dice.
Naturally, we were playing "Skull & Shackles" and the DM was a "storyteller" DM who demanded verisimilitude in all his games.
False life caps at +10, so 205. Still good.
EDIT: One change I think they should reverse is to make commoners and wizards 1d4 again....
False life cap at 1d8+10. Empowered it's average of 22-23. The hit die is not relevant. To make casters fragile they need to revert to 2e rule (only fighters get bonus beyond 16 in con). Otherwise it's useless. I didn't even used the +5 con book.
I think your AC is only 41, which is still very good. Still looking at the rest, but I would put you right with the sorcerer from earlier, if not a little ahead.
why? The only debatable bonus is defending, which unless changed in a faq should work. Without it, you get 72k extra gold to play with (including maybe a Dex book for AC)
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On the subject of material components and what happens to them when you interrupt a spell.
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.
Concentration Checks and Casting Spells
To cast a spell, you must concentrate. If something interrupts your concentration while you're casting, you must make a concentration check or lose the spell. When you make a concentration check, you roll d20 and add your caster level and the ability score modifier used to determine bonus spells of the same type. Clerics, druids, and rangers add their Wisdom modifier. Bards, paladins, and sorcerers add their Charisma modifier. Finally, wizards add their Intelligence modifier. The more distracting the interruption and the higher the level of the spell you are trying to cast, the higher the DC (see Table: Concentration Check DCs). If you fail the check, you lose the spell just as if you had cast it to no effect.
A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.
So if you are in the middle of casting a 10 minute (or whatever) spell and you must be actively chanting, gesturing and manipulating your material components. If you are interrupted in the in the middle of casting, by being silenced, grappled or having your material components taken away, the spell is lost and instantly considered to have been cast to no effect. Any material components are annihilated at that exact moment. This seems to be a pretty clear reading of the rules to me.
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This seems to be a pretty clear reading of the rules to me.
It is
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False Life
You harness the power of unlife to grant yourself a limited ability to avoid death. While this spell is in effect, you gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + 1 per caster level (maximum +10)."
Which I read as max bonus is +10. I could be wrong but that is always how we read it.
As to AC, I just did math wrong when I plugged it into excel, although I didn't see where the extra +4 natural came from (I may have missed something)
I personally think the shield/defending is a bit cheese, but it is legal as far as I can tell. Something they should probably look at in the next edition.
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I think you're dead wrong on that one Ciretose. It says maximum 10 after the +1 per caster level bit, not something like "the max HP possible is +10".
I think it's pretty clear the intent is 1d10+1 per caster level (scaling up to 1d10+10, and not after that).
Otherwise, really, the 1d10 would be pointless after 10th.
Of course the fact that the dev specifically said you can't use blood money for any spell that takes more than one round to cast.
That part is kind of important, don't you think?
Also, I don't think the word "duplicate" means what you think it means...
Wow. Are you telling me I can cast wish for 50 points of curable damage?
I have a sorcerer build with over 250 hit points without polymorph spells at around 17th or 18th level. I can now easily jack all my stats with a +5 inherent bonus for no monetary cost.
Thank you so much for letting me know about this spell.
Wow. Are you telling me I can cast wish for 50 points of curable damage?
I have a sorcerer build with over 250 hit points without polymorph spells at around 17th or 18th level. I can now easily jack all my stats with a +5 inherent bonus for no monetary cost.
Thank you so much for letting me know about this spell.
Blood Money causes STR damage, not HP Damage.
It Are A Fact.
Wow. Are you telling me I can cast wish for 50 points of curable damage?
I have a sorcerer build with over 250 hit points without polymorph spells at around 17th or 18th level. I can now easily jack all my stats with a +5 inherent bonus for no monetary cost.
Thank you so much for letting me know about this spell.
Blood Money causes STR damage, not HP Damage.
It Are A Fact.
Ah. I see. I read it wrong. That would have been nice.
Not even once.
God-wizards tend to not exist outside idealized theorycrafting conditions;
Specially if you enforce the rules and avoid one-encounter-per-day-campaigns.
Wow. Are you telling me I can cast wish for 50 points of curable damage?
I have a sorcerer build with over 250 hit points without polymorph spells at around 17th or 18th level. I can now easily jack all my stats with a +5 inherent bonus for no monetary cost.
Thank you so much for letting me know about this spell.
Blood Money causes STR damage, not HP Damage.
It Are A Fact.
It causes 1d6 damage.
The fact that you haven't seen them does not mean they don't exist. Your players may simply be rubbish at playing spell casters or, more often, there is an unwritten, unspoken agreement at the table not to use some of the more blatantly abusive stuff they are capable of.Not even once.
God-wizards tend to not exist outside idealized theorycrafting conditions;
Specially if you enforce the rules and avoid one-encounter-per-day-campaigns.
None of those really.
We all have played most editions/versions of D&D, and the least experienced of us has played the game for 15 years or so.They also optimize very well, and several times an arcane caster has appeared with a really strong combination for a fight or two. Just like we had archers and barbarians killing bosses in one round. Sometimes players will be powerful against a specific enemy/challenge, and you should let them (IMO).
My point is: that doesn't break the game. You are still expected to go through a number of challenges designed to not be solved with the same spells.
Please, don't be so dismissive or other people's experience.
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The fact that you ignore these examples or what they are capable of speaks volumes to me.
Calm down, I gave you credit already for your sorcerer. Don't pick a fight when it isn't needed or called for.
I missed the blaster, the Paragon surge was interesting and I do think that is a problem spell that was poorly thought out, although I would have to look at it again to see the synergy you are talking about.
Calm down, . .Don't pick a fight when it isn't needed or called for.
Too true; this is the internet, after all.
Paragon Surge lets you pick a Feat. That Feat can be Expanded Arcana.
Or even better (or both), Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane). Half-Elf Oracles are pretty much the most powerful thing in PF.
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You'd need regular Eldritch Heritage first for that though.
Right, but you'd using Paragon Surge with Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) to actually get the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Paragon Surge also works well with Spell Perfection. And hey, Half-Elf do get a free Skill Focus Knowledge (Arcana)...
False Life
You harness the power of unlife to grant yourself a limited ability to avoid death. While this spell is in effect, you gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + 1 per caster level (maximum +10)."
it's maximum of 1d10+10. It uses the same expresion tgat cure light wounds for example. It's 1d8 +1 per level, maximum +5. But it can heal more than 5hp. And then you can empower that.
As to AC, I just did math wrong when I plugged it into excel, although I didn't see where the extra +4 natural came from (I may have missed something)
draconic bloodline. Gives you +4 nat armor and 10 fire resist (which layer become immunity)
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And more to the point, if this was about fixing the game for you, you would be arguing that it needs to be clarified to not allow your reading, not arguing that it does allow it.
That is the thing that always gets me in these discussion. The person who has "discovered" the broken exploit who fights tooth and nail to keep it broken...
Why, if there are multiple ways to read something, would you insist the broken way is the correct way?
Because it can't begin to get fixed, until the developers can read it objectively, and admit that, yes, despite their intent, despite their interpretation of what was written, the text does actually say what it actually says.
"Do you know why I pulled you over, sir?"
"No, officer, was my driving at fault?"
"Do you know what the speed limit is on this stretch of road?"
"Well, the sign says 50, and I was going below that, I'm sure."
"I clocked you going at 48. You can see the footage if you like."
"o-0? But, officer, if the sign says 50, and I was going at 48, then how is that a problem?"
"Because the sign may say 50, but what it's actually meant to say was 40. Any reasonable person knows that this road works far better as a 40 zone than a 50. Everyone in this town is under a gentleman's agreement to treat this road as a 40 zone. You'd know that, if you were signed up to the local town planning forums. It's buried in an FAQ from 2009, on page 25 of 61. I'm going to have to ticket you."
"That's insane! I'm passing through. I can't be expected to camp out on the town planning forums of every road I might ever drive down. Why don't you replace the sign, with one that shows the correct rule?"
"Oh, so we got a troublemaker, huh? Well, I don't know how they do things in your town, buddy, but here, our officers have some backbone. We find 90-95% of our problems go away, when we do that." <cracks knuckles>
I think the build I provided to him actually gave him a example of character that could take most encouters by himself in a party with three other commoners. CR 20 cteatures can only hit him with a 20. CR 20 creatures can only save with two 20 in a row against a save or lose spell. She has a few "no save tricks" like irresistible dance+spectral hand or maze. She can do 240+ damage in 20' as a backup weapon .
And she does that without even using the cheese spells like simulacrum, blood money, explosive runes, etc
I think a character that make oponents need 20s to work is as close to God as it's needed. More is overkill.