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My DM and I are going to have a duel. He's going to play a Wizard and me an Alchemist. We have not set the date for this duel.
So far the rules are:
level 15 (via 2d10)
20 Point Buy
Core Races Only
Pathfinder Spells Only (no 3.5 imports).
3rd party Ref (GM, really).
A few rules I'm going to suggest:
No 3rd Party Material - stick to CRB, APG, UM, UC, Bestiary.
3rd Party Ref designs the dungeon in which we'll duel and decides which of us has "home court advantage" via dice rolling.
No leadership NPCs or hired goons, but summoned critters/created critters (i.e. zombies, simulacra) are permitted.
Any thoughts? My initial thoughts are:
Human, mindchemist.
Fast Bombs. Overland Flight. Mummification+cold bombs+cold detonate.
Greater Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance.
Doppelganger simulacrum. At least 2 clones. Assume 1st clone will be squished/crunched by 15th level God Wizard. Outfit with what appears to be decent gear but is actually traps and cursed items (so that the first casualty will not feed him any decent gear).
Any constructive advice is appreciated.
Ta!
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Ignore the previous poster.
What you need is to win initative. Make a dex focused vivisectionist/beastmorph. Focus him on throwing alchemist fires, two weapon fighting toss the alchemist fires, with sniper goggles (+2 damage per sneak attack die rolled), you still gain int to damage for thrown splash weapon so have a decent int score.
Build your items around having as high a dex/initative/int as poissble.
Wizards in a straight up fight without buffing time die just as easy as anything else.
If he somehow survives (which would require him either having built his touch ac up with items specifically to stop this build, or having a buff before hand) Then having the beastmorph archtype and some way to see through invisibility will allow you to pounce, with the agile enchantment too add dex to damage on your weapons, hopefully allowing you to finish him off. (enjoy the bite 2 rakes, plus normal weapon attacks on the charge).
But honestly if he gets one turn to cast you'll probably lose.
What's the rules on buffing? because that has a lot to do with whether you can win or not.
Edit:- what's the starting distance? This build would require you to be at least 35 feet away to work. Otherwise you'll still wanna go dex based with agile enchantment beastmorph/vivsectionist, have boots of speed and any speed boosts poissble so you can first turn pounce him before he can react.
Quick point, I'm a bit iffy on how sneak attacks work with splash weapons. Some say they don't, but i've not found anything that agrees with this.
If i'm wrong and they can't be used on splash weapons, consider dual wielding hand crossbows with a vestigial arm to reload.
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By there nature splash weapons can not deliver precision damage (IE. sneak attack).
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.
And if the wizard player knows what there doing. The will win.
By there nature splash weapons can not deliver precision damage (IE. sneak attack).
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects.
And if the wizard player knows what there doing. The will win.
Is there an actual rule you can qoute for that one?
So basically "catch him by surprise" is the only solution? I don't accept that. Anyway, too circumstantial.
IMO, sticking with regular bombs and boosting damage via cognatogen seems better than trying for sneak attack damage that I don't think I'll get.
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From the PRD
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
From the PRD
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can't target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you're aiming at the creature.
If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.
So nothing other than your houserules that you can't hit a vital spot with a splash weapon?
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So basically "catch him by surprise" is the only solution? I don't accept that. Anyway, too circumstantial.
IMO, sticking with regular bombs and boosting damage via cognatogen seems better than trying for sneak attack damage that I don't think I'll get.
You can do what ever you want. The fact remains a level 15 Wizard that gets to cast one spells will win every time.
Just one example
(level 7 spell)Persistent Spell Dominate Person (Range 25Ft + 5Ft per level = total range 100Ft.)
Int 20 + 1 level 4,8,12= 23 +6 enchantment= 29 +1 inherent = Int 30
Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Save DC 27
Vs
Alchemist Will 5 + 5 Enchantment + 1 Luck = 11. There are ways to get it higher but not enough to give you a 50/50 shot at making the save.
You're basically boned if you cant kill the wizard in one round though.
Round 1. Wizard teleports away, buffs. Round 2, comes back and kills your ass dead.
Beyond that, at 15th level...he just has too many options if he's optimizing to kill you.
This is the thing...wizards are the most amazing class, when they can prepare for what they are fighting. and in this case...thats exactly what he can do.
I do agree, focusing on sneak attack and going first is pretty much the only option. go for initiate, sneak attack, and try to kill him round one.
Beyond that, at level 15, he has limited wish. His options are expanded beyond what's even normal before 13ish.
Just go high dex high Init Beastmorph/Vivesectionist and borrow AM BARBARIANS RAGELANCEPOUNCE
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Talonhawke you need to read the rules for splash weapons.
Just cut and past from the prd.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
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So nothing other than your houserules that you can't hit a vital spot with a splash weapon?Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
Wow, Rules: 1, reading comprehension: 0
No, the rules rules say no precision based damage from splash weapons (aka "hitting a vital spot").
You do know the PRD is the "Pathfinder Resource Document", aka "The Official Rules", right?
If the wizard tries to take you in a straight up fight, it's possible you can beat him, but as a straight alchemist it's very unlikely you'd have the saves, touch ac, and hit points to survive. He can optimise to focus on just one of your defences, and you don't know which one so you can't optimise against it, further chances are he only needs to successfully bypass your defences once.
If you win after he's had a chance to get a spell off, he's either bad at being a wizard, or you got lucky.
Do you need to sneak attack? No. You just need to hit him first, and do enough damage too take him out. My build I posted can make it almost certain you can do that.
With sniper goggles you'd be getting out +16 damage a pop, plus sneak attack with whatever ranged weapon you use, plus enhancement bonuses. At most you could gain 5 attacks with haste using bombs, for noticeably less damage, per bomb and less attacks. It could still work, but with a much lower chance.
You asked for advice, I've given it.
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Talonhawke you need to read the rules for splash weapons.
Just cut and past from the prd.
Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as the damage from the rogue's sneak attack class feature).
It's a good idea to bold the pertinent sections when you're pointing something out to someone. Some people don't bother reading past three words of a post.
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Yeah I failed my save vs Wall of Text.
Just to note, alchemists that are dex/stealth based, monks and barbarians, (plus maybe speciality focused paladins) and ninjas are the classes that have the best chances of killing a wizard, and apart from the barbarian, this is all due to high mobility, damage and saves, or hitting the wizard while he's unprepared.
(Technically the barb has high mobility damage and saves as well, but we all really know it's because he's awesome.)
Edit:- Further note, Even if he did try to take you in a fair fight, You'd have had a better chance playing a beastmorph pounce based alchemist with a lance or something, allowing you to deal such a raw amount of damage at such a high too hit chance that you could probably just overwhelm any defences he did have. A bomb based alchemist is just far too easy and obvious for him too counter, especially if he has buff time, and if you go the cognagen route where you are unlikely to catch him off guard. No-one beats a wizard that has prepared for you. Except maybe AM BARBARIAN.
So basically "catch him by surprise" is the only solution? I don't accept that. Anyway, too circumstantial.
IMO, sticking with regular bombs and boosting damage via cognatogen seems better than trying for sneak attack damage that I don't think I'll get.You can do what ever you want. The fact remains a level 15 Wizard that gets to cast one spells will win every time.
Just one example
(level 7 spell)Persistent Spell Dominate Person (Range 25Ft + 5Ft per level = total range 100Ft.)
Int 20 + 1 level 4,8,12= 23 +6 enchantment= 29 +1 inherent = Int 30
Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Save DC 27
Vs
Alchemist Will 5 + 5 Enchantment + 1 Luck = 11. There are ways to get it higher but not enough to give you a 50/50 shot at making the save.
Yes, this is what im after.
Ok, not dumping Will, taking Greater Iron Will, cloak of resistance. Greater Cognatogen boosts will. Spell Resistance is available as an extract at level 15. There's also a ting that let's you push off bad saving throws for like a minute. How else can we defend against Will attacks?
AM RAGECHEMIST/VIVISECTIONIST!!!
Even with all that you'd have one re-roll plus lets say wisdom 18 with cognagen, so 5 +4 +5 from cloak + 3 from headband = 17. This gives you a 50% chance to avoid with one re-roll. So he either quicken casts it again if you use the re-roll or dimension doors away, casts from of the dragon 3, buffs up his ac, dimension doors in and casts quickened transformation then devours you in close combat.
I mean i'd do that, but he could just summon a bunch of creatures and send them over to fight you instead, while peppering you with ranged touch attacks.
At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
The concept of rocket launcher tag is an absolute joke that ends the second you realize you still have the rest of the day to adventure through and you can't simply sling spells until something sticks against one opponent. Especially with the failure rate of said spells.
So basically "catch him by surprise" is the only solution? I don't accept that. Anyway, too circumstantial.
IMO, sticking with regular bombs and boosting damage via cognatogen seems better than trying for sneak attack damage that I don't think I'll get.You can do what ever you want. The fact remains a level 15 Wizard that gets to cast one spells will win every time.
Just one example
(level 7 spell)Persistent Spell Dominate Person (Range 25Ft + 5Ft per level = total range 100Ft.)
Int 20 + 1 level 4,8,12= 23 +6 enchantment= 29 +1 inherent = Int 30
Spell Focus Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus Enchantment
Save DC 27
Vs
Alchemist Will 5 + 5 Enchantment + 1 Luck = 11. There are ways to get it higher but not enough to give you a 50/50 shot at making the save.Yes, this is what im after.
Ok, not dumping Will, taking Greater Iron Will, cloak of resistance. Greater Cognatogen boosts will. Spell Resistance is available as an extract at level 15. There's also a ting that let's you push off bad saving throws for like a minute. How else can we defend against Will attacks?
That's the terrifying thing about fighting a well prepared Wizard. It could just as easily be a Persistent Flesh To Stone. You can't defend against what you can't prepare for. Your only option is to take him down in one round.
The concept of rocket launcher tag is an absolute joke that ends the second you realize you still have the rest of the day to adventure through and you can't simply sling spells until something sticks against one opponent. Especially with the failure rate of said spells.At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
Unless of course you're in a duel and that's the only thing you're doing that day.
At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
TBD. I'd want time to buff, too, though.
The concept of rocket launcher tag is an absolute joke that ends the second you realize you still have the rest of the day to adventure through and you can't simply sling spells until something sticks against one opponent. Especially with the failure rate of said spells.At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
This is a duel, so h can pretty much afford to.
Be AMY. Win init. roidclawpounce.
This is a duel, so h can pretty much afford to.The concept of rocket launcher tag is an absolute joke that ends the second you realize you still have the rest of the day to adventure through and you can't simply sling spells until something sticks against one opponent. Especially with the failure rate of said spells.At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
However it's a crappy way to go about it. SoD spells are too iffy, and with too many defenses against them.
Honestly that is the exact strategy I would strive to force my opponent into -- force him to constantly use those spells to 'defeat' me. After the duel when he's done and feeling good that dagger in the back is going to be a real shocker.
Who the heck actually steps up for such duels anyways? It's a ploy -- There is no coin under the cup, all I want is for you to play the game I win when you think that's the game I'm playing.
Besides just because there is a duel doesn't mean that's all that is going to happen that day and only a fool would think otherwise (nothing personal, just saying).
You're buffing with 5th level spells. He's buffing with 8th level spells. He'll be more than happy to give you as much time as you want.What's your plan for getting around mind blank / invisibility? Overland flight? Resist fire?
Echolocation, The same, Force bombs or you know not dealing fire damage perhaps touch of slime.
Also what buffs are you really wanting? Enlarge and the like are bad (they lower your initiative), displacement / blur will only matter if he goes for a ray focused build, haste is generally good.
Probably just stick to beastmorph pouncing, but I'll like heroism and fluid form to go with it, freedom of movement and death ward would probably be nice as well.
Also what is going to be your win condition? Are you going to take his hp to 0? With melee strikes or with ranged strikes or with bombs?Also are you required to be straight alchemist or can you grab a level or 2 of say master chymist?
Good questions I would have to fully stat out and have an idea of the wizard in question.
Which brings us to the biggest problem currently -- right now without anything concrete we really don't have a match... we have a game of make believe that doesn't have anything behind it (the sort that goes, "I use my super beam" "I use my super beam blocker" "Well I use my blocker crusher" etc etc).
I see I need to restate.
So I'm not looking for twenty posts saying "don't do it. Wizards are too powerful." This is an exercise. Think of this as "if you HAD to roll up an Alchemist to beat a wizard in a one-on-one duel, how would you do it?"
I may lose, sure, but I wanna give it my best shot. Think of me as the underdog.
What IS helpful is "what I would do with my wizard build to defeat an alchemist is ___".
A lot of effort is spent arguing for Cheapy's cheese melee build. I'll say this: I will consider it. But for the moment I'd like to try and do it without a focus on melee and I definitely have to do it without multiclassing.
TBD. I'd want time to buff, too, though.At level 15 you're going to be playing rocket tag, and if your opponent is any good, he's got the faster rocket. You can not beat a divination wizard on initiative. At least reliably. That makes vivisectionist much less good for you.
What are the rules for buffing before the fight?
You're buffing with 5th level spells. He's buffing with 8th level spells. He'll be more than happy to give you as much time as you want.
What's your plan for getting around mind blank / invisibility? Overland flight? Resist fire?
Also what buffs are you really wanting? Enlarge and the like are bad (they lower your initiative), displacement / blur will only matter if he goes for a ray focused build, haste is generally good.
Also what is going to be your win condition? Are you going to take his hp to 0? With melee strikes or with ranged strikes or with bombs?
Also are you required to be straight alchemist or can you grab a level or 2 of say master chymist?
Invisibility= See Invisibility
Overland Flight = Overland FlightResist Fire = Acid Bomb, Frost Bomb
Mind Blank = ....
Good call. And I am a fan of the Arcane Eye. And he knows that. How about nonvisual senses? Bloodhound? Acute Sense?
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Invisibility= See Invisibility
Overland Flight = Overland Flight
Resist Fire = Acid Bomb, Frost Bomb
Mind Blank = ....Good call. And I am a fan of the Arcane Eye. And he knows that. How about nonvisual senses? Bloodhound? Acute Sense?
See invisibility won't work because of mind blank which blocks all divination spells (including see invisibility) that's why I recommend Echolocation -- which is a transmutation spell/extraction and therefore will work.
Some info about DM: he doesn't focus so much on battlefield control as he does on Save-or-Die, which he uses a lot of. I know that he recently rolled up some kind of "kick-ass transmuter", so I kind of expect that he WON'T be rolling a transmuter against me. I DO expect him to make Feeblemind a part of his strategy, since it's pretty devastating to a solo Alchemist.
It's pretty bad against a solo Wizard, also - is there a way to reflect it back against him if he uses it on me?
How do we feel about a Wand of Spell Gauge?
Simplest way to win? ring of spell turning.
Seriously, if he doesn't see that coming it'll throw most wizards for a loop.
Feeblemind isn't too scary since you aren't an arcane caster and won't be taking a penalty on the save. Having a ring of counterspell wouldn't be a horrible idea though.
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Here's 2 cents worth of tactics that could also work against said Wizard.
Ready to attack as he casts a spell. You put enough damage on him every time he starts to cast and he WON'T be getting those spell off. Supplement this with Spellcraft so you know whether or not its a Quickend spell and if that quickend spell is actually dangerous enough to be worth being troubled by it.
UMD scroll of silence on your self. You can use your extracts and abilities silenced, he very likley will not be able to. Corner him and engage in melee. If he tries to run, trip him. It's not like wizards don't have silenced spell metamagic, but going against an alchemist your not expecting that so you likely didn't have it prepared.
What every you do, do not engage in a ranged battle with the wizard. He will win every time.
Also, I saw that you have a no goons clause, but creatures created and summoned were okay? Keep the summoned creatures if you plan to use the preservationist build, otherwise your better served not allowing any created creatures. Wizards have spell for creating all kinds of nasty undead, and you also didn't include the fact that A)he can do clones & simulcrum too, and B) He'll have access to Craft Construct. The last thing you really want to do is show up to the fight with you and your 2 clones to meet his small army of undead and constructs, finally manage to kill the guy only to find out that you'd been fighting his simulcrum as he blast you in the back with some damage dealing spell you weren't prepared for (Cause he just spent the last hour watching you fight his army, he gets a feel for your tactics, prepares the spells he knows you have the least defenses against and shows up after you've already expent all of your abilities.)
Here's 2 cents worth of tactics that could also work against said Wizard.
Ready to attack as he casts a spell. You put enough damage on him every time he starts to cast and he WON'T be getting those spell off. Supplement this with Spellcraft so you know whether or not its a Quickend spell and if that quickend spell is actually dangerous enough to be worth being troubled by it.
UMD scroll of silence on your self. You can use your extracts and abilities silenced, he very likley will not be able to. Corner him and engage in melee. If he tries to run, trip him. It's not like wizards don't have silenced spell metamagic, but going against an alchemist your not expecting that so you likely didn't have it prepared.
What every you do, do not engage in a ranged battle with the wizard. He will win every time.
Also, I saw that you have a no goons clause, but creatures created and summoned were okay? Keep the summoned creatures if you plan to use the preservationist build, otherwise your better served not allowing any created creatures. Wizards have spell for creating all kinds of nasty undead, and you also didn't include the fact that A)he can do clones & simulcrum too, and B) He'll have access to Craft Construct. The last thing you really want to do is show up to the fight with you and your 2 clones to meet his small army of undead and constructs, finally manage to kill the guy only to find out that you'd been fighting his simulcrum as he blast you in the back with some damage dealing spell you weren't prepared for (Cause he just spent the last hour watching you fight his army, he gets a feel for your tactics, prepares the spells he knows you have the least defenses against and shows up after you've already expent all of your abilities.)
The no goons clause is so that he doesn't show up with sorcerer or Barbarian cohorts. Also, if I beat him with a No Summoned Critters clause, he'll cry foul and Treantmonk will say I didn't really beat a wizard, just a wizard with a handicap.
Melee- I agree that's a good tactic; at the same time I have trouble sinking a lot of effort into it when a devastating ranged touch attack is built into the class. The solution: a zombie ogre to grapple him.
Depending on the terms of engagement, a Clone Master could be useful. The plan:
1 Make sure you put alot of ranks in stealth and use magic device, maybe even skill focus.
2 Create 10 or 20 simulacrum of yourself.
3 Hand your simulacrum useful scrolls that don't depend on caster level, like dimensional anchor or scorching ray.
4 Have all your copies (except one) hide in the general vicinity of the duel, either via alter self, elixirs of hiding or just plain old stealth.
5 Have the last of your copies pose for you and accept the duel.Since we are playing rocket tag at this level, it would be fair to assume that the wizard would nuke the copy:s sorry ass the first thing he dose (preferably with something nasty like persistent stone to flesh, that might not even work on something made out of snow!). Then you have your minions attack him after he melts the first 'you'. Preferably in groups of 3-4, and hitting him with dispel magic scrolls or something. When he has exhausted himself on your minions, you can reveal yourself to him, chuckling [b]Very impressive[b] and then start chuckling bombs or something. Of course, this could be just another copy, and you will of course have 2-3 clones of yourself if this goes badly...
This is starting to seem like the way to go. I was hanging on to a
Mindchemist with the two cloney discoveries, but clone master with cognatogen is probably the better way to go.
Build so far:
Mister E
Level 15 Mindchemist
Str 7 (-2)
Dex 16 (+3)
Con 14 (+2)
Int 22 (+6)
Wis 14 (+2)
Cha 7 (-2)
Tome of Clear Thought +1 27.5K
Manual of Quickness in Action +1 27.5K
Ring of Spell Turning 100K
Ring of Delayed Doom x3 15K
Cloak of Resistance +5 25K
Cloak of Resistance +5 25K
1 Point Blank Shot, Iron Will, Rapid Shot (noncombatant)
2 Preserve Organs
3 Greater Iron Will
4 Smoke Bomb
5 ED: Frost Bomb
6 Tentacle
7 Improved Initiative
8 Fast Bombs
9 ED: Combine Extracts
10 Mummification
11 ED: Alchemical Zombie
12 Greater Cognatogen
13 ED: Alchemical Simulacrum
14 Poison Bomb
15 ED: Doppelganger Simulacrum
On second thought, I'd rather not give up both the poison immunity and the higher bomb damage. Cloudkill/smoke bomb + cold detonate seems like one way to go.
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assuming he's not immune and/or has to breath, the cloudkill and incendiary bomb discoveries + rapid bombs twf, rabid shot is gross.
They also cause concealment, which is a real nightmare on ranged attacks.
Personally I'd go stealthy and snipe him. A halfling with the swift as shadows trait would be great for this, especially if you're going ranged with bombs as the smaller size doesn't reduce your damage.
Honestly though the terrain/dungeon for this duel makes all the difference. Every argument I've ever heard for Wizard=Win hangs on the terrain being a big open space. Cramped quarters with short corridors and most of the tactics listed would be of little use, throw in poor lighting and the wizard is in serious trouble.
At least thats my opinion on the matter.
On a side note this sounds like a really fun idea. I might suggest this to my gaming group and have a little tournament
is it level 16 that lets an alchemist do the cloud kill bomb if its at a lower level you win brew up some fort save or die stay unseen and fly.
oh and DO NOT FORGET the spontaneous healing from UM that will be your key to betting the non-healing wizard (hint wizards don't heal and you do, worst comes to worst out live him)
is it level 16 that lets an alchemist do the cloud kill bomb if its at a lower level you win brew up some fort save or die stay unseen and fly.
oh and DO NOT FORGET the spontaneous healing from UM that will be your key to betting the non-healing wizard (hint wizards don't heal and you do, worst comes to worst out live him)
Poison Bomb is a 12th level discovery.
Spontaneous Heal: Meh. Not so much worth a discovery at level 15. 5 points/round for a whopping total of 35/ day. If he blasts me or hits me with a monster, twice that will be gone in one round. Doesn't seem worth a discovery slot.
There are extracts that have better effects, like Resurgent Transformation.
is it level 16 that lets an alchemist do the cloud kill bomb if its at a lower level you win brew up some fort save or die stay unseen and fly.
oh and DO NOT FORGET the spontaneous healing from UM that will be your key to betting the non-healing wizard (hint wizards don't heal and you do, worst comes to worst out live him)
Poison Bomb is a 12th level discovery.
Spontaneous Heal: Meh. Not so much worth a discovery at level 15. 5 points/round for a whopping total of 35/ day. If he blasts me or hits me with a monster, twice that will be gone in one round. Doesn't seem worth a discovery slot.
There are extracts that have better effects, like Resurgent Transformation.
oh well maybe it just me that thinks not wasting a action on healing on a one one fight where my heel has a set amount of "nuke the earth" he can use.
as for mobs like i said fly, wile the wizard spends his whole turn on a creeder that can reach you (knowing that the flying summon mobs all have crap saves) to attack you in your death cloud, you can heal, move, and wale on himyou also have up to 14 discovery slots buy that point
i said that in kinda a b&@& h~*@ way that was not intended sorry