Wizard Vs. Alchemist


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So.

The battle took about five hours. We played on a 22x31 battlemap, forest with various trees, rocks, stumps scattered about more or less randomly. A large body of water ran through the middle, which was thankfully only 4 feet (d10) at it's deepest. Some friends helped keep track by keeping track of initiative and rolling to place all of Mister E's simulacra and Monolo (sp?) the Transmuter wizard and his 3 succubi and onyx elephant. 3 rounds to buff, so Mister E gets to take cognatogen, command his ring of spell turning, and take nondetection. 3 rounds mean all are immune to poison and have resistance against all four basic forms of energy.

Wizard player laughs real hard when he sees the sheer number of Simulacra playing against him. Gone is his trash talk along the lines of "I give you three rounds, then you're dead. Then I rape your corpse." OOC, he admits that he failed to memorize any area spells, which he now sees was a terrible miscalculation.

Round 1 - Mister E is high in the initiative order (behind some of the sims). By some miracle the wizard is dead last in initiative order. He pokes at the wizard with 1 dispelling bomb (though he could throw three as a full round). Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace. Which surprised me. Sims poke at the succubi with concussive bombs and at Wizard with concussive until one decides to toss fire his way. No fire resistance from wizard. One of the snipers critically fumbles and the judges decide that his crossbow is broken; the other misses. Sim who tried to cast antimagic field fizzled, mishaph, spell did 2d6 damage. The two suicide bombers (who are buffed with amplify elixir) move toward the wizard (who is not invisible) and take detonate. Elephant, late in initiative order, tramples many sims down. Village idiot sim (buffed by true strike) successfully hits Wiz for 5 Intel damage. Wizard casts fickle winds on himself and two succubi. (30% miss chance for bombs).

Round 2 - Mister E stealths behind a bush and drinks magic jar elixir. Succubi ignore him and start grappling and kissing random sims. Sims attack succubi and elephant. Elephant tramples. One detonate goes off (forgot that the other was supposed to go off - what can I say, 20 characters is a lot of paperwork). I roll kind of low on damage but wizard takes full, flubs save. Fire damage, so succubi aren't affected. (oops). Second sniper is knocked down, can't reload because it's a full round action. A few sims attack Wizard. A few get through for mucho flame damage. Wizard casts flesh to ooze on Greatsword-wielding true strike buff'd alchemist marching his way.

Round 3 - Mister E tries magic jar on Monolo. Wizard makes his save (but at this point, player seems worried because Mister E is pretty well prepared). More succubi level draining. More trample. Second Detonator goes off. Rolls pretty high damage, several 8s. Wizard takes full, fails reflex save. Elephant is downed. One of the sims sees the onyx, tosses it toward wizard with intent to trample. Gelatinous cube goes after wizard, who is closest creature. Wizard makes his save to avoid absorption and cube fails to hit. Wizard baleful polymorphs a sim into a mouse.

Round 4 - By now, wielder of touch of idiocy wand is dead. Sims know that there's a wand of dimensional anchor in his bag, move to retrieve it. One succubi stops kissing and casts charm monster on revived elephant. Elephant fails save. Arg. More trampling. Wizard casts temporal stasis on a sim. Mister E gets back in his body and stands up.

Round 5 - More kissing. More trampling. Mister E chucks a dispelling bomb at Wizard. Misses.

Heck with it. No more games.

Mister E chucks another, which hits. Bad dispel check. Chucks a third bomb. This one is force damage, and aimed adjacent to him. He takes force damage from splash. Now wizard knows that Mister E #5 is the "real" Mister E (actually a doppelganger simulacram/ his body is made of the same stuff as the sims to fool True Seeing). Wizard commands succubus to kiss Mister E. He gets grappled due to his terrible CMD. Fails his will save. Fails his Iron Will reroll. Kisses succubus and takes a negative level. Despite this, wizard decides to bug out and casts Mage's Magnificent Mansion, with intent to hang out in it for 32 hours and buff, presumably get whole new slew of spells. I call shenanigans, since the rules of engagement states that "any character who leaves the battlefield for more than 2 consecutive rounds is considered resigned" (this allows the wizard to teleport away, buff, and return, but not ad infinitum, since basically this means that the character has effectively fled). I argue that the extradimensional space of the mansion is not on the battlefield. He says that it is. We haggle a bit and I concede that his character knows the rules and offer him a new spell in its slot if he would rather change his mind. He takes me up on it.

Mansion spell is retconned, instead he hits Mister E with a heightened, persistant feeblemind. This is the moment he's been waiting for.

But so has Mister E. Spell is reflected back at him via Ring of Spell Turning. He fails his save. He is feebleminded.

Round 6 - Sim comes at him with a firebomb, hits, wizard dead. Summoned creatures vanish.

Winner - Mister E.

:)


Mister E wrote:

So.

The battle took about five hours. We played on a 22x31 battlemap, forest with various trees, rocks, stumps scattered about more or less randomly. A large body of water ran through the middle, which was thankfully only 4 feet (d10) at it's deepest. Some friends helped keep track by keeping track of initiative and rolling to place all of Mister E's simulacra and Monolo (sp?) the Transmuter wizard and his 3 succubi and onyx elephant. 3 rounds to buff, so Mister E gets to take cognatogen, command his ring of spell turning, and take nondetection. 3 rounds mean all are immune to poison and have resistance against all four basic forms of energy.

Wizard player laughs real hard when he sees the sheer number of Simulacra playing against him. Gone is his trash talk along the lines of "I give you three rounds, then you're dead. Then I rape your corpse." OOC, he admits that he failed to memorize any area spells, which he now sees was a terrible miscalculation.

Round 1 - Mister E is high in the initiative order (behind some of the sims). By some miracle the wizard is dead last in initiative order. He pokes at the wizard with 1 dispelling bomb (though he could throw three as a full round). Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace. Which surprised me. Sims poke at the succubi with concussive bombs and at Wizard with concussive until one decides to toss fire his way. No fire resistance from wizard. One of the snipers critically fumbles and the judges decide that his crossbow is broken; the other misses. Sim who tried to cast antimagic field fizzled, mishaph, spell did 2d6 damage. The two suicide bombers (who are buffed with amplify elixir) move toward the wizard (who is not invisible) and take detonate. Elephant, late in initiative order, tramples many sims down. Village idiot sim (buffed by true strike) successfully hits Wiz for 5 Intel damage. Wizard casts fickle winds on himself and two succubi. (30% miss chance for bombs).

Round 2 - Mister E stealths behind a bush and drinks magic...

Congrats! Well played. =D


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So what did we learn?

1) Don't try save-or-dies against a guy who has 240K to spend and access to a ring of spell turning.

2) There's no buff that gets you COMPLETELY immune to an alchemist's bomb damage. That said, DR is very effective against them, and creatures like succubi can take a lot of pounding from concussive bombs and still be standing. Wind wall will cut down on some of them, wind wall + displacement will cut down on a lot, but splash damage is not your friend and you should count on some direct hits getting through anyway.

3) Core does not "trump" newer base classes. Preparation does trump overconfidence.

4) The Alchemist has a lot of diversity and can still be extremely effective. Alchemical Simulacrum is a great way to illustrate this.

5) As written, the clone master is a worthless archetype. Almost all of the goodies can be gotten via discoveries, the simulacra will cost less, and you won't have to nerf bombs or poison resistance. The same can pretty much be said for the reanimator (though this at least seems like it would make a decent villain NPC).


Mister E wrote:

So what did we learn?

1) Don't try save-or-dies against a guy who has 240K to spend and access to a ring of spell turning.

2) There's no buff that gets you COMPLETELY immune to an alchemist's bomb damage. That said, DR is very effective against them, and creatures like succubi can take a lot of pounding from concussive bombs and still be standing. Wind wall will cut down on some of them, wind wall + displacement will cut down on a lot, but splash damage is not your friend and you should count on some direct hits getting through anyway.

3) Core does not "trump" newer base classes. Preparation does trump overconfidence.

4) The Alchemist has a lot of diversity and can still be extremely effective. Alchemical Simulacrum is a great way to illustrate this.

5) As written, the clone master is a worthless archetype. Almost all of the goodies can be gotten via discoveries, the simulacra will cost less, and you won't have to nerf bombs or poison resistance. The same can pretty much be said for the reanimator (though this at least seems like it would make a decent villain NPC).

1) You were lucky that you still had enough levels left on the Spell Turning buff. You only activated it once in the whole fight? Any wizard worth his arcane bond would have used a quickened spell beforehand to remove enough levels so that the following spell would not be turnable.

2) His buffs were a joke if Cat's Grace was his highest level spell.

3) To be honest, your opponent was clearly not prepared and clearly didn't know what to do. On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard. The challenge here was to see if you COULD win. I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

4) True.

5) True.

Overall, he didn't seem to take the fight seriously. You certainly "out-prepped" him but he still seemed to do very well. His tactics didn't seem tailored for an alchemist opponent. It was mostly luck that you weren't targeted with any spell effects before feeblemind or he would probably have won.


Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.


Mister E wrote:
Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

It looks more like it is online rather then on paper, but I suppose you could have written out a transcript of the fight to a hard copy before posting.

Also I must commend you on putting on a good performance, you were sort of upstaged by the wizards comedy routine but good show nonetheless.


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Don't bother arguing with him Mister E, a lot of wizards players don't seem to realise that Schroedinger doesn't transfer well to a actual combat situation, you done very well and your clone strategy was rather original. Kudos.


Great work! and congratulations !


Starfinder Superscriber

Nice to read about Mister E! Gratz on the epic win!


Mister E wrote:
Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?

You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.


Trikk wrote:
Mister E wrote:
Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?

You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.

If his report are to be believed, the wizard died on round 6 from firebombing minions. That would have happen regardless if the feeblemind got thru or not (yeah, Mister E would be a drooling wreck, but he still would have won!). Do you think the wizard would have benefited so much from going first (eg being a diviner) seeing as the combat went on for atleast 5 rounds before being decided?


Trikk wrote:
Mister E wrote:
Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?

You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.

Really you are harping on the ring I think a more relevant point would be say that the wizard was shall we say not the most prudent when it comes to spell choice. I don't know about you but I for one would have at least used a spell that had the possibility of being lethal.


Saerdna wrote:


If his report are to be believed, the wizard died on round 6 from firebombing minions. That would have happen regardless if the feeblemind got thru or not (yeah, Mister E would be a drooling wreck, but he still would have won!). Do you think the wizard would have benefited so much from going first (eg being a diviner) seeing as the combat went on for atleast 5 rounds before being decided?

Going first means at least one extra buff... but I guess in this case it would just have been a Bull's Strength or something equally awful. It's not like the wizard had any idea what he was doing.

WWWW wrote:
Really you are harping on the ring I think a more relevant point would be say that the wizard was shall we say not the most prudent when it comes to spell choice. I don't know about you but I for one would have at least used a spell that had the possibility of being lethal.

Yeah, I guess the ring was not that important in the overall scheme of things when the spells were so awful. Cat's Grace...

The battle was the wizard's to lose and he did indeed lose it horribly. It shows us that no matter how powerful, the human factor can bring down any class.


@WWWW - True, in the wizards boots I think something to oneshot the alchemist would have been a better choice (if I'm low on hp and there is a good chance that I would be dead next round). Sadly there is very few spells that instant kill people @ max hp, and even the death of the alchemist wouldn't stop his simulacrum from killing him (that probably counts as a draw, unless someone put some contingency:s in place). The spells I can think of is either an persistent flesh to stone or metamagiced disintegrate.

@Trikk - Lol true


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Trikk wrote:
Mister E wrote:
Trikk wrote:
On paper, an alchemist will lose to a wizard.

Nope. Alchemist. KO in round 6. On paper.

Trikk wrote:
I don't think anyone would have bet money on you vs a wizard.

My opponent once thought as you do.

He's dead now.

This is like saying that straight up boxing is better than cross-training because fighter A won over fighter B in an MMA fight. You won because of an item, an item that's not specific to the alchemist and on top of that the item is extremely easy to beat. What are you going to do against a wizard that targets you with more than one spell? Ready action to re-activate the Ring of Spell Turning?

You won because of sheer luck if your battle report is to be believed. You spent more time prepping, your opponent was not even a divination wizard and had no tactics to face you. He didn't even have any area effect spells. All the rules were tailored to help you and you still had to rely on an item to have any chance at all of winning.

More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.

Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?

I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.

Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance Pathfinder has built into it. If you're determined to take down a wizard, there's always a way.

The biggest Achilles heel of the wizard is their arrogance. The arrogance of "on paper, a wizard beats an alchemist every time" is the same arrogance that tries to end a fight with a save-or-die.

Let's be clear - my argument was never "Alchemist is a more powerful class than wizard". It was always "I reject the attitude that wizard is inherently GOBS more powerful than all other classes; to prove it I'll roll up an alchemist that can beat a wizard." My point was that an alchemist is a great class that can be devastatingly powerful in the right hands. I think I proved my point.

I used battlefield control tactics effectively for every round of that battle. The succubi were wasting their time attached to simulacra who stayed up round after round despite being grappled and smooched. Elephant goes around stomping minions instead of me. Control creatures were doing their job. Check. He had no idea which was the real me due to a good stealth roll. Real guy hidden. Check. I used a dispelling bomb to knock down his touch AC 2 points. Minions can more easily harass him with bombs, so he has to use transmutation kill magic on them. Check. Three bad spells that didn't go my way. (my battle record isn't flawless, because somewhere in there I used a Death Ward on myself also). Used a magic jar to poke at his inevitably nerfed will save and test his spell resistance. Check. No SR, no spell turning. Time to reveal, let him save-or-die me with a metamagic'd killer spell. Boom. Fight over.

Not luck, buddy. Strategy.

The only point in which I was threatened at all is when he sent his succubus after me (which I had not considered, assuming he'd go straight for the kill when he knew which was the real me). I blew my will save and blew my reroll. Losing a level in a duel with a wizard is no joke.


Mister E wrote:


More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.

Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?

I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.

Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance...

Oh please, stop acting as if you masterfully beat a skilled opponent.

Quote:
Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace.

I think you've shown much more arrogance after your win than your opponent showed by challenging you to the fight.

You spent hours upon hours preparing, I would be surprised if he even read through all of the spells that he had available.

That's not arrogance, that's laziness.

As for the rules, banning his mobility was far worse than restricting it to current edition rules.


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Trikk wrote:
Mister E wrote:


More than one spell, you say? Why, I guess I'll hide amongst nineteen copies of myself, and make him play a guessing game as to where to put his save-or-dies.

Why is it that the wizard who summons critters to soak up damage is a crafty genius, but the alchemist who crafts simulacra "just got lucky"? Is the wiz who uses a bonded object, or a ring of wizardry, or his own ring of spell turning (the magic jar was there in part to test for the possibility of this) "getting lucky" or "relying on items"?

I made sure he knew which one was me because it was clear by round 4 that he had invested in save or dies and little else. This is why I stopped hiding and tried the rope-a-dope tactic.

Really I think what hamstrung him was the rule "only Paizo material only." He was a 3.5 player/DM and uses 3.5 material in his games constantly. People who are used to 3.5 brokenness take it for granted that wizards are untouchable. He, like many, doesn't realize just how mug balance...

Oh please, stop acting as if you masterfully beat a skilled opponent.

Quote:
Dispel check is high and gets rid of his highest buff - cat's grace.

I think you've shown much more arrogance after your win than your opponent showed by challenging you to the fight.

You spent hours upon hours preparing, I would be surprised if he even read through all of the spells that he had available.

That's not arrogance, that's laziness.

As for the rules, banning his mobility was far worse than restricting it to current edition rules.

Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.

Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.

What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?

You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).

And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.


Mister E wrote:

Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.

Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.

What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?

You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).

And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.

If the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, that means that in a fight between two equals where the only variable is class, the wizard would always win. That is, if you fight yourself, your wizard would always beat your alchemist. If I hand a gun to a toddler and then stab him with a knife, I haven't proven that a knife is superior to a gun.

People predicted what you were going to face and what you actually faced was so far below anything predicted that it's just laughable. That was not a good showing by a wizard, that was the equivalent of handing a pre-made wizard character to the resident "always power attack fighter" guy and asking him to duel your souped up *anything*.

Liberty's Edge

This goes to show that preparation and intelligence >>> raw power.

Addressing a few points:

1) Cat's grace is not a bad buff against an alchemist. However, its a buff that you should have fighting an alchemist at 3rd level, not 15th. And yes, it is a sign that he's an inferior player. Same with him casting feeblemind.

2) What hamstrung him is that he doesn't know how to play a wizard. (Interestingly enough, it sounds like he did decent with the succubi and the elephant, which are more dm specific.)

3) You got the victory, but in such a way that it is basically meaningless. I can beat a 20th level wizard with a 1st level fighter if all he ever tries to do is use diplomacy in a language I can't understand.


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Trikk wrote:
Mister E wrote:

Banning his mobility? Nope. Trying to keep it sane, and a duel. If he teleports away to buff for six hours, isn't he basically running away? If the wizard is better "on paper", why does he need to run away into an invincible fortress to lick his wounds and regroup? Haven't I proven the argument at that point? It was my challenge, not his. I thought I was pretty generous to give him 2 consecutive rounds off the battlefield to buff and then return. Which he could have done over and over again, if he cared to. He also could have tried to knock me off the battlefield somehow.

Without the "PC must be on the battlefield" rule, what's to stop me from sending in the Simulacra with, say, an iron golem and a bunch of zombie ogres (or dragons, or hydra) and staying home? The 200+K spent on self-protection could have had a lot of better uses if I didn't need to be there, believe me.

What you're seeing from me isn't arrogance, it's defending my victory. If "on paper" the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, I shouldn't have been able to beat him in six rounds, should I?

You keep harping on this "cat's grace" point. The point is that I poked at him with a dispelling bomb to see what his highest buff is. It wasn't a terribly bad buff, IMO; it increases his touch AC which makes it that much harder for bombs to hit. The fact that he didn't bother with a stronger buff isn't due to his being an inferior player, it's because he focused his energy on summoning things to make my life miserable (which almost worked, eventually).

And, yeah, he probably felt he didn't need to buff more than that. Because why should he? Wizards are better on paper. This alchemist doesn't stand a chance.

If the wizard is simply a vastly superior class, that means that in a fight between two equals where the only variable is class, the wizard would always win. That is, if you fight yourself, your wizard would always beat your alchemist. If I hand a gun to a toddler and then stab him with a knife, I haven't proven...

Ok, well, you weren't there and you don't know my opponent. He's a seasoned DM who runs 3-4 games a week. His attitude was similar to yours, that a wizard is simply better on paper. I challenged this attitude and I won the duel.

He wasn't prepared enough? Not my problem. We had the same amount of time to prepare. I warned him several times that my alchemist comes from a vacuum as a wizard-killing machine, and that I expected nothing less from my opponent. Partly this was to put an end to the attitude that he doesn't dare throw a high-level NPC wizard against our party because it would tpk and we'd cry like babies.

I'm almost positive that the character he used against me was exactly the same as one that mopped the floor with the party in one of his games (that I don't play in); said party is the same level as the wizard. I didn't tell him to do that. I wouldn't have done that. Fighting one guy is easier than fighting like 6 guys in theory. I opted to take a page from Treantmonk's excellent guide and changed the reality of the battlefield on him. Do I think wizards are inherently inferior to alchemists? No I don't. Could I roll up a wizard that would demolish Mister E? Sure. Never mind the AC - Mind blank, Greater Invis, project image would be my buffs. Once the battle starts I'll hide in the corner and do my summoning there, through the image. I'd place some walls to divide the enemy forces, maybe a prismatic one, too.

You don't think it was a legit win? Agree to disagree. I don't really need to prove anything to you.

If you think you can beat me, roll up a wizard and come to PA and we'll play. Maybe you'll wipe the floor with me. Then again I might win. I'd have fun either way. In the meantime I'll answer any questions you have, but I'll thank you to stop making snap judgements about a game you didn't witness.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

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Wow, sore losers all 'round.

Good job on tactics an strategy Mister E.


Matthew Morris wrote:

Wow, sore losers all 'round.

Good job on tactics an strategy Mister E.

Thanks :)


Time to drop the alternate identity, I guess. No chance of him spying on my strategy now.


ShadowcatX wrote:

This goes to show that preparation and intelligence >>> raw power.

Addressing a few points:

1) Cat's grace is not a bad buff against an alchemist. However, its a buff that you should have fighting an alchemist at 3rd level, not 15th. And yes, it is a sign that he's an inferior player. Same with him casting feeblemind.

2) What hamstrung him is that he doesn't know how to play a wizard. (Interestingly enough, it sounds like he did decent with the succubi and the elephant, which are more dm specific.)

3) You got the victory, but in such a way that it is basically meaningless. I can beat a 20th level wizard with a 1st level fighter if all he ever tries to do is use diplomacy in a language I can't understand.

Hmm. How's that relevant, straw man?


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I just can´t believe some of the post on here.
This shows that some people just can´t take it when their beliefs take a blow to the groin:)
Anyway, congrats to your victory


Trikk wrote:
Saerdna wrote:


If his report are to be believed, the wizard died on round 6 from firebombing minions. That would have happen regardless if the feeblemind got thru or not (yeah, Mister E would be a drooling wreck, but he still would have won!). Do you think the wizard would have benefited so much from going first (eg being a diviner) seeing as the combat went on for atleast 5 rounds before being decided?

Going first means at least one extra buff... but I guess in this case it would just have been a Bull's Strength or something equally awful. It's not like the wizard had any idea what he was doing.

WWWW wrote:
Really you are harping on the ring I think a more relevant point would be say that the wizard was shall we say not the most prudent when it comes to spell choice. I don't know about you but I for one would have at least used a spell that had the possibility of being lethal.

Yeah, I guess the ring was not that important in the overall scheme of things when the spells were so awful. Cat's Grace...

The battle was the wizard's to lose and he did indeed lose it horribly. It shows us that no matter how powerful, the human factor can bring down any class.

Yeah right,

If a Wizard loses the player OBVIOUSLY had no idea how to play.
Stupidest comment ever


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Current Score Alchemist/Barbarian/Fighter VS Wizard
3:0
But of course that only because all of the Wizard players where helpless imbeciles:)


Sleet Storm wrote:

Current Score Alchemist/Barbarian/Fighter VS Wizard

3:0
But of course that only because all of the Wizard players where helpless imbeciles:)

I know about the fighter one; got a linky for Barbarian v Wiz?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Sleet Storm wrote:

I just can´t believe some of the post on here.

This shows that some people just can´t take it when their beliefs take a blow to the groin:)
Anyway, congrats to your victory

Heh, I've two ex-wives, I've taken several blows to the groin.


joeyfixit wrote:
Sleet Storm wrote:

Current Score Alchemist/Barbarian/Fighter VS Wizard

3:0
But of course that only because all of the Wizard players where helpless imbeciles:)
I know about the fighter one; got a linky for Barbarian v Wiz?

I mean the famous AM BARBARIAN

Liberty's Edge

No one here, nor even over at character op, has ever said that a wizard, played stupidly, couldn't be defeated. Heck, I'll even be the first to admit, you might have beaten a smartly played wizard in this situation. We'll never know.


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BARBARIAN CONGRATULATE ON STERLING VICTORY.


AM BARBARIAN wrote:
BARBARIAN CONGRATULATE ON STERLING VICTORY.

Awesome. Does this mean I get to stroll around calling myself AM ALCHEMIST?


joeyfixit wrote:
AM BARBARIAN wrote:
BARBARIAN CONGRATULATE ON STERLING VICTORY.
Awesome. Does this mean I get to stroll around calling myself AM ALCHEMIST?

Not until you come up with a suitable name for your signature move. CLONEEXPLODEBOMB?


Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?


joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?

REALLYWELLROUNDED?


Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?

WIZARDDYENOW?


joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?
WIZARDDYENOW?

SIXROUNDWONDER.


Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?
WIZARDDYENOW?
SIXROUNDWONDER.

HIDESMARTBOOM.


joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?
WIZARDDYENOW?
SIXROUNDWONDER.
HIDESMARTBOOM.

FEEBLEMINDFAIL.


Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?
WIZARDDYENOW?
SIXROUNDWONDER.
HIDESMARTBOOM.
FEEBLEMINDFAIL.

BOMBBOMBBOMBAGAIN.


joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Trinam wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
Hmm. Well, I attacked his touch AC (bombs), reflex save (bombs and suicide bombers), will save (Magic Jar), had poison ready (that I didn't get to fire because he died), had Cloudkill bombs ready (CON SAVE). And his own save or die did him in. How about MUSTCOVEREVERYTHING?
REALLYWELLROUNDED?
WIZARDDYENOW?
SIXROUNDWONDER.
HIDESMARTBOOM.
FEEBLEMINDFAIL.
BOMBBOMBBOMBAGAIN.

OR

duckduckduckGOOSE.


Well done, Mister E.

Of course, if you'd gone with implanted bombs in your simulacra, that elephant would have died much sooner... ;-)


DreamAtelier wrote:

Well done, Mister E.

Of course, if you'd gone with implanted bombs in your simulacra, that elephant would have died much sooner... ;-)

?


Good job putting the smack down on the wizard.

How did you keep him from using meta-game knowledge to pick out which Mister E was real?


darth_borehd wrote:

Good job putting the smack down on the wizard.

How did you keep him from using meta-game knowledge to pick out which Mister E was real?

Who says I told him?


joeyfixit wrote:
Who says I told him?

If the wizard wanted to use meta-game knowledge, it would seem to me that he could just look to see which Mister E you kept out of the combat the most and deduce that would be the real one.


darth_borehd wrote:
If the wizard wanted to use meta-game knowledge, it would seem to me that he could just look to see which Mister E you kept out of the combat the most and deduce that would be the real one.

Ah, you underestimate my powers.

Ironically, Mister E was plopped pretty close to the wizard (random placement) and didn't move more than 30' the entire battle. In round 1 he threw a dispelling bomb at the wizard and dispelled his Cat's Grace. Additionally, many of the Sims appeared to "run for the hills" in the first two rounds of the battle. Some of them were medics who were waiting for someone to call out "Medic!". Mostly this was because they didn't want to bunch up too much or form straight lines, afraid of area spells and lightning arcs.

In round 2 Mister E hid behind a bush and made a stealth roll. Wizard made a perception and failed. Hard to metagame that without shenanigans.


darth_borehd wrote:
If the wizard wanted to use meta-game knowledge, it would seem to me that he could just look to see which Mister E you kept out of the combat the most and deduce that would be the real one.

Besides, that isn't really metagaming. The wizard can similarly look to see who's keeping out of combat. But Mister E is taking extracts and moving around and chucking bombs like everyone else.


Take these items; Rings of spell turning, boots of speed, Cloak of resistance +5, whatever else you want

Before the fight use these buffs; Echolocation, Rage, Death Ward, Greater Invisiblity, Spell Immunity, Resurgent transformation, Overland flight

You then just need to melee him to death because spell turning (send a nasty spell back at him), Echolocation (find him when he's invisible), Rage (extra STR and CON +1 to will), Spell immunity (immune to 3 4t level or lower sells), Resurgent transformation (survive death once)

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