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Samnell wrote:
It's our fault for hitting their fists with our faces again and again and again. Everyone knows that.
BigNorseWolf wrote:


I got detention in highschool for breaking a kids hand like that...
Andrew Turner wrote:


Wow! Me, too--I was suspended for 14 days in 1989. The other kid punched me in the face; all I got was a very minor black eye, but he broke three fingers and fractured his wrist. I never hit him, but my eye didn't really swell up at all and the bruise didn't appear until later. No-one would believe I hadn't broken his hand deliberately.

Nowadays it doesn't matter if they don't believe you. I've seen people get suspended for 30 days because someone else punched them in the face, and did NOT injure themselves doing so. Both kids got punished, with the same punishment ("Because they were Fighting"). Seriously. "Zero Tolerance", is actually "Victim Abuse".

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Hitdice wrote:
Can I ask, do you not consider someone who believes in god(s), lives by the tenets of a religion etc. "religious" if they don't attend church/service?
Darkwing Duck wrote:
I consider them 'spiritual', but not 'religious'. I believe that the community rites and rituals need to be practiced for it to be 'religious'.
thejeff wrote:
And yet you've claimed that atheism is a religion. Is it that atheism is a religion, but atheists are not religious? That's a weird distinction.

Perhaps, for atheists, "the community rites and rituals" is specifically avoiding participation in rites and rituals, which in and of itself, is their only ritual. :P

I dont believe in any kind of creator god, and follow no religion, but I'm not an atheist, from what I understand of the matter. I've had to explain this to many friends, so I've gotten good at summing up:

I believe in Science, Spirits, and some Psychic Phenomena, mostly because I've seen weird things I cant explain with science. So while I believe in a few things that Atheists don't, I don't believe in any higher power than people who deserves my fealty, just other things which may have more power than myself. We have that here. Politicians, CEOs, Rulers of Countries.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Darkholme wrote:
I believe in Science, Spirits, and some Psychic Phenomena, mostly because I've seen weird things I cant explain with science. So while I believe in a few things that Atheists don't, I don't believe in any higher power than people who deserves my fealty, just other things which may have more power than myself. We have that here. Politicians, CEOs, Rulers of Countries.

I'd probably call that "nonreligious" or maybe "agnostic" or maybe "meh w/e". ;)


"General Woo-ism," is a term I see a lot, with "Woo" being faith-based and/or supernatural stuff that's fun to believe in but lacks credible evidence (e.g., ghosts, ESP, astrology, autism-causing vaccines, megadoses of vitamin C curing cancer).


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thejeff wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Hitdice wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'm a little confused. Haven't you denied being religious before?
I'm sure I have. I only started going to this minister's church in the last couple of weeks.
Can I ask, do you not consider someone who believes in god(s), lives by the tenets of a religion etc. "religious" if they don't attend church/service?
I consider them 'spiritual', but not 'religious'. I believe that the community rites and rituals need to be practiced for it to be 'religious'.
And yet you've claimed that atheism is a religion. Is it that atheism is a religion, but atheists are not religious? That's a weird distinction.

I've seen community rits and rituals being practiced among atheists - one of them being collective 'pastoral work' to try to 'save' people from believing in god(s).


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Darkholme wrote:


Nowadays it doesn't matter if they don't believe you. I've seen people get suspended for 30 days because someone else punched them in the face, and did NOT injure themselves doing so. Both kids got punished, with the same punishment ("Because they were Fighting"). Seriously. "Zero Tolerance", is actually "Victim Abuse".

Hear hear! I want to see that as a bumper sticker: Zero Tolerance=Victim Abuse


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Darkwing Duck wrote:


I've seen community rits and rituals being practiced among atheists - one of them being collective 'pastoral work' to try to 'save' people from believing in god(s).

I thought we were going to use Geertz definition of religion from now on. This does not fit. By 'pastoral work' certainly you mean telling people who believe in things that scientifically can't exist that they don't.

What rituals, by the way?

I observe a good number of rituals as well as traditions. They have nothing to do with my unbelief. For example: every Thursday night for 8 years now I gather with a small group of friends in a circle and throw bits of plastic at a wooden table in a religious ritual we now call 'Pathfinder'. I eat corned beef and cabbage on St. Patty's day, Lasagna on Easter, and Indian food on Wednesdays. None of these things are because of, or have any relation to my unbelief.

Your desire to paint irreligious people as religious is disingenuous, since you've shared your background in religious anthropology before.


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ShadowcatX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And yet you've claimed that atheism is a religion. Is it that atheism is a religion, but atheists are not religious? That's a weird distinction.
Not to speak out of turn or for anyone else, but I've definitely met some atheists who treat atheism as a religion (though they'd probably try and lecture if they heard that said), yet I wouldn't by any means consider them religious.

I have friends, including myself, that treat metal music as a religion and attending a concert is like going to church.

Semantics.


Urizen wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
thejeff wrote:
And yet you've claimed that atheism is a religion. Is it that atheism is a religion, but atheists are not religious? That's a weird distinction.
Not to speak out of turn or for anyone else, but I've definitely met some atheists who treat atheism as a religion (though they'd probably try and lecture if they heard that said), yet I wouldn't by any means consider them religious.

I have friends, including myself, that treat metal music as a religion and attending a concert is like going to church.

Semantics.

I have often told my co-workers that going to the monthly Sunday morning union meetings is like going to church, except with more swearing.

Also, there are many rituals that go into my smoking of the julka.


If only, if only, there was some way to differentiate between religion and dogma. Oh to live in a world where they were two different words.


Blah blah blah!

After December 21, 2012, none of you, gay, Christian, or otherwise will be left to bemoan your pinkskin stupidity. Unless you are willing to accept Leafar the Lost as your Lord and Master you are doomed to an eternity of naught. I, on the other hand, will be smoking reefer, playing D&D and eating frozen pizzas for ALL TIME!

(Sorry, but I can no longer preach in Don't Reply to This Thread! because we're trying to keep the number of posts down.)


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Acolyte of Leafar the Loved wrote:

Blah blah blah!

After December 21, 2012, none of you, gay, Christian, or otherwise will be left to bemoan your pinkskin stupidity. Unless you are willing to accept Leafar the Lost as your Lord and Master you are doomed to an eternity of naught. I, on the other hand, will be smoking reefer, playing D&D and eating frozen pizzas for ALL TIME!

(Sorry, but I can no longer preach in Don't Reply to This Thread! because we're trying to keep the number of posts down.)

I've found that pizza is better if you cook it. "Frozen pizza" isn't a serving suggestion.


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Darkwing Duck wrote:
I've found that pizza is better if you cook it. "Frozen pizza" isn't a serving suggestion.

He's a goblin. They haven't quite mastered fire yet.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
I've found that pizza is better if you cook it. "Frozen pizza" isn't a serving suggestion.
He's a goblin. They haven't quite mastered fire yet.

...Which is why I have to provide heating for the goblin kennels. And let me tell you, they are not grateful; as if passive solar heating is free!


Au contraire!

How else do you think we smoke the reefer?

Pizza tastes better when it's frozen.

All praise Leafar!


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Acolyte of Leafar the Loved wrote:
How else do you think we smoke the reefer?

I figured you just ate the seeds. (Ducks for cover)


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Oh Doodle, haven't you realized? We give you the lit reefer to keep you docile. I know, that makes you angry, but here, have a brownie...Better?


Darkholme wrote:


Nowadays it doesn't matter if they don't believe you. I've seen people get suspended for 30 days because someone else punched them in the face, and did NOT injure themselves doing so. Both kids got punished, with the same punishment ("Because they were Fighting"). Seriously. "Zero Tolerance", is actually "Victim Abuse".

In 1992 I did not get suspended or punished at all for having my hand damn near removed from my arm. Broke both radius and ulna right along the upper wrist, sat the hand on top of them, and put one of the broken bones crosswise on top of that. The doctors spent some time discussing how exactly the bones didn't tear right through the flesh. In the moment of shock before the agony took over I recall seeing the tendons below my wrist stretched farther than it looked like they ought to go.

They managed to avoid surgery getting it all back together, but I've suspected a few times I'd probably have been better off if they put some screws in.

The official story was that I tripped, over my own feet on even ground, and fell. I've never been all that agile, but I'm not that bad. Twenty years on I still remember the exact places the two boys who shoved me down hit on my back when they made contact, and rolling over and seeing them standing over me with their hands still half-raised.

But there's a silver lining to the story. We weren't fighting (Seriously, I hadn't raised a hand against them. My crime was just being there.) so no one got anything worse than a brief, non-judgmental talking to.

The next year I started junior high and they laid out for us just how screwed you were if someone opted to attack you. Then they added that the other sensible option, bailing and finding an adult, would get you nowhere either because they wouldn't have seen anything.

I would much prefer to have the full use of my left wrist and given how it behaves in certain weather now I'm not looking forward to it in old age, but I suppose it was a good lesson in power.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
"General Woo-ism," is a term I see a lot, with "Woo" being faith-based and/or supernatural stuff that's fun to believe in but lacks credible evidence (e.g., ghosts, ESP, astrology, autism-causing vaccines, megadoses of vitamin C curing cancer).

There used to be this terrible show on Discovery, I think called A Haunting. It consisted of more or less an Unsolved Mysteries quality set of dramatic "reenactments" of haunting that the actual people claimed to suffer. The victims, and usually the paranormal "experts" who did the real storytelling, would have bits of interview interspersed. The charlatans involved in promoting the Amityville Horror featured in an episode or two. A few times the experts were credited as "religious demonologists." What would the other kind be?

It was awful in a wonderfully hilarious way. The actual problems were so obvious: guy estranged from his mother flips out when he discovers that while he got Jesus in the Air Force, she got paganism in the New Age aisle. Kid is upset about a big relocation. Divorces. Drugs. One time the kid even said he stopped doing drugs and everything got better. Wow, ya think?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I removed a post that was incredibly dismissive. And another that promoted 'trolling' individuals.

Dark Archive

Ouch Samnell.

I learned the opposite. If you're going to get punished regardless of if you defend yourself, you better make sure that if someone attacks you he learns to NEVER try it again, and then take the punishment you both will get.

Unless of course he's the kid of a teacher at the school, in which case you document it thoroughly, and threaten to out the school to the media if they don't make him cut it out. My school had security cameras pretty much everywhere, so on top of lots of witnesses, they'd have no excuse if they were outed. That kid left us alone after that.


When I was in middle school I used to bully this kid for being super effeminate. One day I took things too far and put him in a headlock then shoved him into some lockers. He responded by round house kicking me in the face and knocking me out cold even though I was literally six inches taller then him, fifty pounds heavier and was one of the best players on both our football and basketball teams. I told the principal the incident was entirely my doing but she suspended both of us then once we got back gave us equal amounts of detention.

We ended up making friends in detention and became super close, even dating briefly in highschool. We are still friends today.


meatrace wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:


I've seen community rits and rituals being practiced among atheists - one of them being collective 'pastoral work' to try to 'save' people from believing in god(s).

I thought we were going to use Geertz definition of religion from now on. This does not fit. By 'pastoral work' certainly you mean telling people who believe in things that scientifically can't exist that they don't.

What rituals, by the way?

I observe a good number of rituals as well as traditions. They have nothing to do with my unbelief. For example: every Thursday night for 8 years now I gather with a small group of friends in a circle and throw bits of plastic at a wooden table in a religious ritual we now call 'Pathfinder'. I eat corned beef and cabbage on St. Patty's day, Lasagna on Easter, and Indian food on Wednesdays. None of these things are because of, or have any relation to my unbelief.

Your desire to paint irreligious people as religious is disingenuous, since you've shared your background in religious anthropology before.

I never said we had to use Geertz' definition. I said that we needed to use a widely used academic definition rather than the ludicrous joke of a definition that some atheists use just so that they won't be identified as having a religion.

And I did not mean by 'pastoral work' pointing out that something isn't scientific. Rather, I refer to the assertion that science is the only thing of value (particularly when it is coupled by the claim that atheism is scientific which it most certainly is not).


To highlight the hypocrisy of some so-called Christians (those who get upset when it is pointed out that the Bible is not against homosexuality and who want to be free to treat gays as second class citizens)

Christian Groups Take Issue With Anti-Bullying Laws


Darkholme wrote:

Ouch Samnell.

I learned the opposite. If you're going to get punished regardless of if you defend yourself, you better make sure that if someone attacks you he learns to NEVER try it again, and then take the punishment you both will get.

I'm a non-violent person. I felt bad the few times I did ineffectually try to defend myself. I briefly scared the s~+~ out of one particular bully when I actually did hit him as hard as I could, but he was right back at it the next day and I still felt bad. To really make sure they're not going to hurt you again you pretty much have to do spinal cord damage. And then they have friends.

Am I sounding like Ender? I've never read the book, but I've skimmed a few analyses about how he doesn't seem to go for anything short of the kill.

Not that I didn't fantasize about the kinds of things that make the murder scenes in American Psycho look like a list of advice. ("Oh yes! Why did I never think of turning him into sausage before? So economical!") Between the pain, the humiliation, and the hormones I bet we've all done that one time or another.


This might be a bit off topic so I'll spoiler it but Samnell's posts have me thinking about it.

On childhood bullying(from a bully’s prespective}.:

Really it seems in many circumstances .victims of bullying don’t have a lot of options because really the only thing that will make a bully back off in most cases is the victim being able to effectively defend themselves (physically or socially), which they can’t easily do, otherwise the bully wouldn’t be targeting them.

Also adults are often basically no help. Classic advice like “The bully is just picking on you because of his own inner pain.” Is just this side of nonsensical. First off how does empathizing with the bully help the situation? The problem is that he doesn’t empathize with YOU. Unless it’s suppose to make you feel better because he is suffering too so the world is just a terrible dark place where everyone suffers instead of just the picked on. Not really sure why that’s suppose to make you feel better…Also that advice is often simply not true. I bullied people through out much of my school career and it had nothing to do with working out pain I had suffered. I was just bigger and quicker of wit than many and I enjoyed inflicting pain on them because I could.

“Go find an adult and tell them when you are being bullied.” Also never seemed to help. Weirdly enough many adults, even those with authority, feel intimidated by child bullies. I got to the point that when a kid told on me and an adult confronted me about it I would just admit to it.

“Did you push her?” The adult asks.

“Yes.” I would respond calmly.

The adult seems taken aback.

“Well don’t or you’ll get in trouble.” They say.

“Ok.” I would respond.

What about that interaction would make me stop being mean in the future?

Really there are two routes that worked on me.

1. Secretly being a ninja like my friend Richard, which is not an option for most kids because they haven’t been doing martial arts since they were three. Also while violence seems an effective tactic it often times really isn’t. Even if the victim goes that route he is often smaller, less athletic and more good natured to begin with and even if he gathers friends to support him the bully often has bigger friends. The only real equalizer the average kid can get is more effective weaponry, but then we go down the whole school shooting route and that’s no good for anyone. You kinda solve your bully problem, sure, but it ends up ruining everyone’s life, including yours. Also there is a good chance of accidently shooting some nice kid who never did a bad thing to anyone. No, violence works if you are good at violence but I think it should be crossed off the list of recommended ways of dealing with a bully as it doesn’t really help anyone.

2. Talking to me like I was a person. In fifth grade a kid I had been picking on for three years came to me and confessed that I was making his life a nightmare. He said he would sometimes vomit before coming to school in the morning because he was so nervous about how I would torture him that day and he was thinking of killing himself if I didn’t stop so as a last ditch effort he was telling me how he felt. I was surprised because I hadn’t thought I was teasing him that hard but I agreed to back off and honestly did, even pouncing on other kids who said mean things to him, much to their surprise. I don’t know if this is actually a good tactic to deal with your average bully or not but it happened a couple times to me and did in fact change my behavior.

I think the thing victims need more than anything else in my experience is someone to champion them, if they could easily champion themselves they wouldn’t be victims. While we should teach bullies tolerance and victim’s courage really we should also make a larger effort to recruit the adults and the kids who fall into neither category to get involved whenever possible. Strip the joy of power from a bully by uncomfortably climbing as far up his ass as possible every time he does something mean and you might see the abuse scale back quite a bit. Getting involved and not letting abuse slid when you see it is likely the most helpful thing the average person can do.

Having said that a I must offer a counter point with another anecdote (because that’s just how I roll, I argue with myself):

Awhile ago my friend told me her son (who was in third grade) was getting bullied a lot and while he went to a school that was very good at pouncing on bulling and stopping it she was getting concerned because in that semester alone he had already been punched four times. In all cases the school suspended the bullies `and she felt handled it well but she wanted me to have a talk with him because it seemed such a problem. I did only to have him make a shocking confession: No one ever punched him! He was going around demanding things from the other kids, including trading cards and lunch money and if they said no he would burst into tears and go tell a teacher he had been attacked! Wait a minute, YOU’RE the bully?!?! I hadn’t laughed so hard in a long time. I told him I wouldn’t expose him but that I thought what he was doing was wrong and that he should confess and make restitution. I was immensely pleased when a week later he did and I ended up giving him the sixty some dollars he needed to pay back in lunch money.

So I guess bullies have a wider variety of tactics then I initially thought and even a society that tries it’s best to defend the weak has it’s share, though they are based on manipulation rather than strength. It’s a good reminder for me not to jump on any bandwagons to quickly and look closely at a situation before making a judgment!


Removed some posts and replies to it. It's been a long week, with a lot of moderation to do. Sometimes we aren't like robots. Please refer to the messageboard FAQ and try to place nice.


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Darkwing duck wrote:
I never said we had to use Geertz' definition. I said that we needed to use a widely used academic definition rather than the ludicrous joke of a definition that some atheists use just so that they won't be identified as having a religion.

I haven't seen a definition yet that would include atheism as a religion that wouldn't also include soccer.

Its not a religion its a conclusion. We know you don't agree with it, don't try to denigrate the idea by insulting it.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darkwing duck wrote:
I never said we had to use Geertz' definition. I said that we needed to use a widely used academic definition rather than the ludicrous joke of a definition that some atheists use just so that they won't be identified as having a religion.

I haven't seen a definition yet that would include atheism as a religion that wouldn't also include soccer.

Its not a religion its a conclusion. We know you don't agree with it, don't try to denigrate the idea by insulting it.

Couldn't have said it better.

But DWD we agreed, on a past thread, to use Geertz definition which is what I was referring to. It serves, longwinded as it is.

I'm not saying that SOME atheists aren't actually religious. They could be, in the wider sense. Buddhists are atheists and yet are religious, as well as Daoists. But atheism is not, itself, a religion. Nor are all atheists religious, even by the loosest vernacular definition, which we certainly wouldn't want to use.

By and large, soccer fans are more dangerous than atheists in their collective practices.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:

This might be a bit off topic so I'll spoiler it but Samnell's posts have me thinking about it.

** spoiler omitted **...

:
Most of the adults one would go to are the social success stories of their own school days. Short of the actual bully involved, it would be hard to find a less sympathetic group. More than once in my student teaching I encountered teachers who told me very bluntly that they thought any kid who wasn't in the social upper crust really had it coming and would go out of their way to minimize even very serious things. After all, they did just fine so it must be that there's something wrong with the other kids.

I understand the story is a bit different in the sciences, but I was in History and English. Oy.


To the comment about atheists not being scientific or something: sure. Because atheist just means disbelief in a god or gods. Atheists are as diverse in their beliefs as anyone, and are just as prone to irrational or unscientific belief patterns.

However, my personal beliefs about how the universe words ends with what is in the scientific body of knowledge. Which, as a rational input, I also have a healthy sense of doubt and skepticism about. My beliefs about how humanity works are based in social science. I hardly think science is the only thing of value, but, by and large, I think that science has more value than pseudoscience or superstition, at least as a way of understanding the world.


meatrace wrote:


However, my personal beliefs about how the universe words ends with what is in the scientific body of knowledge. Which, as a rational input, I also have a healthy sense of doubt and skepticism about. My beliefs about how humanity works are based in social science. I hardly think science is the only thing of value, but, by and large, I think that science has more value than pseudoscience or superstition, at least as a way of understanding the world.

That makes two of us, at least as best I'm able.


In response to Samnell:

I think that is quite sad. One of the good things about growing up is finally realizing the effect you have on the people around you and leaving behind behaviors and opinions that only serve to harm them. The idea that any kid "deserves" abuse just because he doesn't fit in is not an opinion I hope most adults hold.

I for one regret much of the way my school years played out and if I could redo it differently I would in a heartbeat. I honestly find anyone who supports bullying rather pathetic.

Dark Archive

More on Bullying, and anecdotes.

Spoiler:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Really it seems in many circumstances .victims of bullying don’t have a lot of options because really the only thing that will make a bully back off in most cases is the victim being able to effectively defend themselves (physically or socially), which they can’t easily do, otherwise the bully wouldn’t be targeting them.

Bingo. You need to learn to defend yourself physically, socially, and (if necessary) intellectually, you need to be willing to do so, and you need to be at least intimidating enough that your average thug will go after an easier target unless you pick a fight with them.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:

Also adults are often basically no help... I was just bigger and quicker of wit than many and I enjoyed inflicting pain on them because I could.

“Go find an adult and tell them when you are being bullied.” Also never seemed to help....

Yep, Yep, and Yep. I was the quiet artist kid when I was little. Then around grade 8, I got fed up, and by the end of grade 8 I had a reputation for being a bit of a spaz, but I was still getting picked on.

I reinvented myself in grade nine. I started hanging out with people in grade 11, 12, and people who were repeating grade 12; Mostly Goths, Metalheads, and Punkers. (*Aside: Never got into drugs, but I did start drinking like a college student at the age of 13. When I finished highschool and started university, alcohol was no big deal anymore, I got drunk maybe 5 times that year.)

Around that time (grade 9, not university) most of the other kids started leaving me alone, except for the jocks who would still occasionally start something.

I started standing up for myself, and I was always willing to one-up the other guy; which occasionally got me into more fights (due to my unwillingness to let an assault go without retaliation); but I always tried to give the other guy the chance to back off and would make it clear to them if things were escalating to levels they wouldnt want to go to.

One time some douchey jock I didnt know (younger than me, but bigger) shoved me from behind, face first into a steel door post, laughing with his buddies. I punted a 2L bottle of pepsi into the back of his head (it was full). The guy was so shocked that I did it that he and his buddies quickly suddenly went silent and scooted away to wherever they were going, and just looked back at me shocked.

Another time a really big guy went to start a fight with me, and I pulled a knife. I told him to back off, he swung at me, I swung the knife at his hand, he grabbed the blade, and I pulled back, cutting his hand open. I told him to back off again, and he did, saying "You actually cut me...", to which I responded something like "I said leave me alone. I meant it."

Those are the two biggest things that ever happened; Once I decided to stop being the quiet art kid who tried to be nice to people but was a bit of a know-it-all (which clearly wasn't working) people generally started to leave me alone. It helped that apparently most people assumed I was armed, even before that was usually true.

Making it clear that you're not going to be a valid target for the bullies can likely get them to go find an easier target.

Should you go around threatening people with weapons to get your own way? No.

Should you be willing to pull a weapon if you've been put in a situation you can't win in a fair fight? Absolutely. You'd have to be a masochist to just sit there and take a beating without fighting back. If its a fight you can't win, don't fight fair. Use weapons. Go for the groin, the eyes, the throat, the kidney. Obviously, try not to escalate things any more than you have to to make them leave you alone; but do whatever you have to.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:

What about that interaction would make me stop being mean in the future?

Really there are two routes that worked on me.

1. Secretly being a ninja...

Violence often really isn’t an effective tactic. The victim is often smaller, less athletic and more good natured to begin with, and the bully's friends can often beat up his friends.

That works if possible, but you need to be confident that you stand a chance, and you can't afford to be very much more good natured. Just good natured enough to let them leave.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
The only real equalizer the average kid can get is more effective weaponry, but then we go down the whole school shooting route and that’s no good for anyone. You kinda solve your bully problem, sure, but it ends up ruining everyone’s life, including yours. Also there is a good chance of accidently shooting some nice kid who never did a bad thing to anyone. No, violence ... should be crossed off the list of recommended ways of dealing with a bully as it doesn’t really help anyone.

I agree 100% about not pulling a gun. And I definitely agree with not bringing a gun to school for "revenge". But I'd suggest the kid learn how to fight, and learn how to use melee weapons better than your average bully. Ideally the threat of a weapon should be enough to make the bully back off. But if it all goes wrong, so long as you can tell when you need that melee weapon, you have the position of self-defense. Of course, I live in canada, where handguns are really hard to get a license for.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
2. Talking to me like I was a person... I don’t know if this is actually a good tactic to deal with your average bully or not but it happened a couple times to me and did in fact change my behavior.

Obviously, start with this. Definitely. You shouldn't be resorting to violence if you can talk to them like a human being and convince them to leave you alone. That doesn't always work though.

Dogbladewarrior wrote:
I think the thing victims need more than anything else in my experience is someone to champion them, if they could easily champion themselves they wouldn’t be victims. While we should teach bullies tolerance and victim’s courage really we should also make a larger effort to recruit the adults and the kids who fall into neither category to get involved whenever possible. Strip the joy of power from a bully by uncomfortably climbing as far up his ass as possible every time he does something mean and you might see the abuse scale back quite a bit. Getting involved and not letting abuse slid when you see it is likely the most helpful thing the average person can do.

Right on. Definitely. Make the bully a pariah until they shape up. Convince the other kids to not stand by and do nothing. Then you wouldn't HAVE to have to polar effect of either suffering mountains of abuse, or resorting to extreme measures to defend themselves.


Dogbladewarrior wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

:
I suspect most people just don't think about it. Most people do not get bullied very often or very heavily. As such it's just background noise to them and a kid bringing it to their attention is just presenting a new problem that needs to be dealt with somehow.

After all, if they really thought seriously about it they might have to do something difficult like start thinking about how they'd behave if an adult did the same thing. A child might not be an adult, but the act is the same no matter what the age. Not that I think bullies should go to jail for hitting a kid necessarily, but the kind of terrorizing that would get the police involved and restraining orders issued goes on every day when the person doing it is a kid.

I did get the cops involved once. Walking home from the bus two boys attacked me. Not on school grounds, so it's inherently a public matter. One stopped being a problem as soon as the police appeared at his door. The other did shortly after when a patrol car just happened to be in the area when the bus let off.

One should not have to resort to calling in men with guns to deal with everyday problems at school, though.

Dark Archive

Samnell wrote:
One should not have to resort to calling in men with guns to deal with everyday problems at school, though.

Agreed. Things should not get that bad. But they can, and do.

As you pointed out, kids do things all the time, that an adult would go to prison for.

Perhaps a few nights in a cell with the knowledge that if they get caught again it could be months or years in a cell might smarten them the hell up.

From what I understand, bullying is starting to be taken seriously by police after public outcry from all the people who've been driven to kill themselves, harm others, quit their jobs, or develop PTSD and be unable to work, or in some cases even spend more than a few hours outside their house at once for years at a time; and some places are starting to have some VERY serious anti-bullying laws; finally.


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In response to Darkholme and Samnell:

Darkholme you bring up two excellent points that I agree with: That every person should learn at least the basics of self defense(there is going to be probably at least one situation in your long life where you're going to need to know how.) and that the best way to win a fight (especially an unequal one) is to escalate it further than the other guy is willing to take it.

And while both are sometimes needed your final point is the best, we need to work harder creating a system where the small kid lost in his own daydreams isn't faced with only two choices to function at school: to accept a level of abuse not to far outside what people in prison often experience or to project the image of a knife wielding psychopath just to avoid assault.

Samnell unfortunately that basically boils down to the whole "The reason this situation sucks is because everyone involved is stupid" which may be true. It kinda depresses me though.

Yes, it is good that bullying is being taken alot more seriously now and isn't simply "That? They are just being kids." anymore. Bullying can cause long term damage it needs to not just be ignored.


Darkholme wrote:
Samnell wrote:
One should not have to resort to calling in men with guns to deal with everyday problems at school, though.

Agreed. Things should not get that bad. But they can, and do.

As you pointed out, kids do things all the time, that an adult would go to prison for.

:

A lot if the time, they get that bad because we let them. The responsible adults can't be bothered so either calls for help don't get answered or get answered in trivial ("Just ignore him!") or perverse ways ("It's good for you!"). This doesn't just let things continue. It contributes actively by telling the victims that the supposedly responsible people are of the bully's party.


=(


Dogbladewarrior wrote:

:
And while both are sometimes needed your final point is the best, we need to work harder creating a system where the small kid lost in his own daydreams isn't faced with only two choices to function at school: to accept a level of abuse not to far outside what people in prison often experience or to project the image of a knife wielding psychopath just to avoid assault.

Samnell unfortunately that basically boils down to the whole "The reason this situation sucks is because everyone involved is stupid" which may be true. It kinda depresses me though.

:
I don't have a solution for you. I can think of some things that can be done in the realm of the legal machinery that already exists but they're expensive and difficult. You can try to convince the district that the victim has special needs due to bullying and thus is legally entitled to accommodations like not having to share a class with the bully, but who has just one bully?

Since that's a pain for the school and can be expensive too, the administration isn't going to be falling over itself to help out. And the accommodation framework is designed to move kids towards the average. So you've got to have a small disaster to get it going and then you've got only a bandaid. Once you're not depressed or whatever it's back into the soup, assuming you didn't get tossed into a special ed class where you learned next to nothing on top of it all because it was more geared to those with learning disabilities. And only if you have resourceful and aggressive parents and a kid who has the wherewithal to say the right things.

I didn't and I had a healthy, stable home life with very supportive parents. Going to bed every school night hoping not to wake in the morning did not ring any alarm bells for me. It's just how things were. "Are you feeling more upset than usual?" Well no, this is pretty normal for me. Thanks.


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Response to Samnell:

Maybe you're right and there isn't much that can be done administratively to help =(

Perhaps the only real cure to bullying is personal responsibility and the willingness to risk yourself to protect someone else which, if true, is only going to ever happen on a very limited basis.

I just wish there was something more helpful we could tell kids who suffer from bullying beyond "Keep your head down and try to make it adulthood, it gets better."

Is it weird that for some reason I feel the urge to apologize to you? I've never hurt you but I know I hurt many innocent kids like you, kids who where just trying to get through the day without some vicious dick making their life a nightmare. I feel I should say I'm sorry now because life moved on and I never said it then.

I apologize for being cruel, I apologize for using the system against you. I apologize for the physical pain, the emotional scars. I'm sorry I laughed at your fear and assaulted you.

You should know that there was never anything wrong with you, your only crime was being gentle. I was a predator who seized on the fact that you weren't born with the hardness that would have made you tougher prey.

You should also know that I am not now who I was then, I've moved on and become a human being who might actually be worth something.

It is my sincerest hope that you've been able to move on from what I did to you and become a happy adult and that I didn't harden your sensitive soul. Don't let someone as ugly as I ruin someone as beautiful as you.

Liberty's Edge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Darkwing duck wrote:
I never said we had to use Geertz' definition. I said that we needed to use a widely used academic definition rather than the ludicrous joke of a definition that some atheists use just so that they won't be identified as having a religion.

I haven't seen a definition yet that would include atheism as a religion that wouldn't also include soccer.

Its not a religion its a conclusion. We know you don't agree with it, don't try to denigrate the idea by insulting it.

Here's the thing, I agree that some people treat soccer as a religion. IMO: Anything you give that much power over you can be viewed as a religion, even if it isn't about a higher power. Soccer, atheism, etc. if it is where you devote your time, your energy then how is it different in any meaningful way than Christianity or Wicca?


Ross Byers wrote:
I removed a post that was incredibly dismissive. And another that promoted 'trolling' individuals.

Now that the brownies have worn off, I am no longer docile.

Don't you know by now, you can't stop the bum rush!


If you're contrasting atheism with theism, then I agree. Atheism is not a religion and neither is theism. They are general classifications of belief systems. Atheism includes things like many forms of Taoism, many forms of Buddhism, even many forms of Shamanism. However, when people refer to 'atheism' they are commonly (at least in my experience) talking about a specific form of atheism - the atheism I've seen most common in 21st century America. And THAT is a religion.

One of its tenets is claiming that science is the ultimate authority. Though, it takes on faith the concepts of parsimony and repetition of results. One of its rituals is getting on internet message boards and claiming that religion is toxic.

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