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I'm Christian, Unless You're Gay


Off-Topic Discussions

851 to 900 of 1,199 << first < prev | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | next > last >>
Andoran

Darkwing Duck wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I am offended when policy that governs us is based on religion

As am I.

1.) Jesus said give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's.

2.) When you entangle church and state, the church becomes legalistic. Jesus spent his life fighting against legalism in religion

3.) Believing that religious teachings require the enforcement of politics shows a deep lack of faith in those religious teachings. If the religious teachings are valid, they should be able to stand on their own. If they aren't valid, then we (Christians) should return to the Bible to make sure that we are interpreting it correctly.

4.) The founding fathers of our country who were Christian (that is, the ones who were Christian) believed that both church and government are both better off by keeping them separate. I agree with them.

I find the self-identified 'Christian' social conservatives in politics to be an affront to Christianity.

Most of our disagreements are political rather than doctrinal I think.

Osirion

Aretas wrote:
ciretose wrote:
XxAnthraxusxX wrote:
It is Christians, if anybody, who are under attack and being persecuted here in the United States and the World at large.
Do you actually believe this, or are you trolling. Because if you are arguing Christians are persecuted more than other religions, that kind of cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Wow, this post is amazing. All these attacks are not in war, they are an attempt to religiously cleanse the area of Christians. I invite you to look it up for yourself.

Egypt: Coptic Christians are literally being bombed before, during and after they attend Church.

Iraq: Aside from the sectarian Islamic violence, the Christian community is under constant attack. Arab Christians and Assyrians are all fleeing this country.

Nigeria: Most recently 150 people died when Muslim fanatics bombed a packed congregation on Easter.

Indonesia: More of the same.

These are just some recent examples. I'm not sure if your a student of history but the middle east of was not always Muslim. The Christians were systematically driven out.
Lebanon was until recently a Christian land. Thanks to Hezbollah and other crazies the Christian community is a twindling one.

This is actually funny too. That in order to convince us that christians are being suppressed in the U.S. he has to look outside of the country for his evidence.

Osirion

Darkwing Duck wrote:
ciretose wrote:
I am offended when policy that governs us is based on religion

As am I.

1.) Jesus said give unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's.

2.) When you entangle church and state, the church becomes legalistic. Jesus spent his life fighting against legalism in religion

3.) Believing that religious teachings require the enforcement of politics shows a deep lack of faith in those religious teachings. If the religious teachings are valid, they should be able to stand on their own. If they aren't valid, then we (Christians) should return to the Bible to make sure that we are interpreting it correctly.

4.) The founding fathers of our country who were Christian (that is, the ones who were Christian) believed that both church and government are both better off by keeping them separate. I agree with them.

I find the self-identified 'Christian' social conservatives in politics to be an affront to Christianity verging on being, if not actually being, blasphemy.

I agree. And therein lies the problem. The modern Christian Conservative Movement is trying to claim things that are patently false, and are trying to make their religion the law of the land.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
KitsuneSoup wrote:

There are a number of posts that are "this is the problem with Christians", "This is why I hate Christians", etc. I understand it's currently still chic to hate Christians. Do you hate the people, or do you hate the church? Do you hate the message, or do you hate the doctrine?

Tolerant Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc...are all fine. Hell I married one :)

When they want the doctrine of their church to be law I have to live by, purely because it is the doctrine of their church, I have a problem.

That is the line, period.

You married a tolerant Christmusjew? Seriously, though, that statement implies that you don't agree with all of your partner's beliefs... and you are a wonderful person for not letting your love be blinded by labels. Or vice-versa.

I /am/ with you on that one. I see the double-standard of having a "you can't tell us we have to provide birth control, you don't have any right to say what the Church does!" with "We enjoy tax-exempt status and the law should reflect our beliefs because it's the right thing to do!" But that might just be me... my wedding present to my little brother was a box of condoms because they couldn't afford birth control.

[ANNOTATION: This applies beyond religion, though. "Corporations are people, we deserve tax breaks and your worship!" versus "We are corporations, you cannot hold us accountable for actions that would get a person jailed!"

[ANNOTATION SECUNDUS: I don't agree with that picture you linked to, cire, but only because it feels hurtful. Read incorrectly (or perhaps correctly, I don't know the author personally), a reader may infer that "Christians are idiots and are therefore easy targets, and arguing with them is not fun, so I will stay intellectually superior and not do so, because by not being Christian, I am automatically mentally superior". That has become a large part of my frustration with my atheistic friends. When I become infallible in my logic and statements, all too often the retort is "Ya, but you believe in the Sky-god". And suddenly they're in the Ivory Tower again, gaining one life for... wait...

But I am willing to admit that's my own cross to bear, and not something that factors into the global argument.


KitsuneSoup wrote:
ciretose wrote:
KitsuneSoup wrote:

There are a number of posts that are "this is the problem with Christians", "This is why I hate Christians", etc. I understand it's currently still chic to hate Christians. Do you hate the people, or do you hate the church? Do you hate the message, or do you hate the doctrine?

Tolerant Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc...are all fine. Hell I married one :)

When they want the doctrine of their church to be law I have to live by, purely because it is the doctrine of their church, I have a problem.

That is the line, period.

You married a tolerant Christmusjew? Seriously, though, that statement implies that you don't agree with all of your partner's beliefs... and you are a wonderful person for not letting your love be blinded by labels. Or vice-versa.

I /am/ with you on that one. I see the double-standard of having a "you can't tell us we have to provide birth control, you don't have any right to say what the Church does!" with "We enjoy tax-exempt status and the law should reflect our beliefs because it's the right thing to do!" But that might just be me... my wedding present to my little brother was a box of condoms because they couldn't afford birth control.

[ANNOTATION: This applies beyond religion, though. "Corporations are people, we deserve tax breaks and your worship!" versus "We are corporations, you cannot hold us accountable for actions that would get a person jailed!"

[ANNOTATION SECUNDUS: I don't agree with that picture you linked to, cire, but only because it feels hurtful. Read incorrectly (or perhaps correctly, I don't know the author personally), a reader may infer that "Christians are idiots and are therefore easy targets, and arguing with them is not fun, so I will stay intellectually superior and not do so, because by not being Christian, I am automatically mentally superior". That has become a large part of my frustration with my atheistic friends. When I become infallible in my logic and statements, all...

Kitsune, I read it as satire making fun of self-righteous atheists.

I thought ciretose was having a little light hearted fun at his own expense by linking to it.

Andoran

KitsuneSoup wrote:


You married a tolerant Christmusjew? Seriously, though, that statement implies that you don't agree with all of your partner's beliefs... and you are a wonderful person for not letting your love be blinded by labels. Or vice-versa.

I /am/ with you on that one. I see the double-standard of having a "you can't tell us we have to provide birth control, you don't have any right to say what the Church does!" with "We enjoy tax-exempt status and the law should reflect our beliefs because it's the right thing to do!" But that might just be me... my wedding present to my little brother was a box of condoms because they couldn't afford birth control.

I don't need to control my wife or her beliefs. She we share the same values, she just believes many of those values are reflective of her reading of the bible (she is actually a christian who has read the bible cover to cover, which I find to be rare...) as allegorical stories that fit the times they were written in, rather than as the absolute word of "God".

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I now want to meet a Christmas Jew. Or write a statblock for one. Not sure which.

Andoran

Darkwing Duck wrote:

Kitsune, I read it as satire making fun of self-righteous atheists.

I thought ciretose was having a little light hearted fun at his own expense by linking to it.

Yup. I felt like I had gotten to a point in the conversation with the other person where he was going to be insulted by anything that didn't affirm the views they held, and wanted to show him the equivalent position from my side of the aisle.

At the end of the day in these discussions, the hardcore on the other side are thinking I'm going to burn in hell for all eternity for not agreeing with them. Making Choo Choo noises is closer to where my side gets to along that line of thought...

Andoran

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I now want to meet a Christmas Jew. Or write a statblock for one. Not sure which.

Good place to start.


Shifty wrote:
Aretas wrote:


My point is this, why have rules of conduct on the boards if they do not apply to Christianity?

I have been reading threads and posts for a long time. These boards are not an exercise in free speech, they are totally censored by the moderators.
There is a liberal bias & Christianity is public enemy #1. Thats my observation and humble opinion.

Well you see I would suggest that there probably is a liberal bias and there probably is a view Christianity (on an institutional level) is the enemy because they, conservative Christian organisations, spent the better part of a couple of decades vindictively and viciously attacking firstly our preferred hobby, and then us as group of hobbyists.

Some of us recall the mass media mainstream stomping those CC's gave us through the 80's and 90's, stompings that are still being carried out today as well - it's hard to forgive and forget the character assassinations and vilification of us, Devil Worshippers and Heathens playing an occult game that will no doubt send us all to Hell. Frankly that they didn't like us wasn't the problem, the problem was they had enough organisational power to kick the hobby in the teeth in their fit of moral panic.

http://www.crcbermuda.com/satans-attacks/childrens-entertainment/469-the-da ngers-of-role-playing-games

That being said,

We didn't have as much money floating around to fight back like the rockbands did.

Aretas wrote:
Thank you for saying Dungeons & Dragons!
And had the CC's had their way, those two words would never be said aloud.

I understand what your saying. D&D was never a hobby I would brag about to the square community.

I'm Christian Orthodox and Christian / Jewish friends never encountered the instituetional discrimination you are talking about. We had to explain to parents and friends what this obscure game of D&D was all about in the wake of the D&D inspired murder/suicide in the forest if you all remember that.

I don't think its such a bad thing that parents were a bit worried & discouraged their children to play a game that involved dukes and arch fiends along with summoning demons and devils. Given the amount of time we played, D&D was up there with playing video games as a waste of time hobby.

My encounters with gamers were mostly folks who were not religious. We encountered a lot of pagans and atheist. We even had a run in with a few "reformed" satanist! (Huge Baphomet pentagram tat on his back!)

Maybe the discrimination these guys faced by Christians with regards to D&D was not the catalyst for their discrimination against Christians. Its just a convenient excuse to discriminate. Maybe they just don't like Christians. Some atheist & pagans find every reason under the sun to verbally slander Christianity.

Now if some other denomination of Christianity spoke out against the game I assume it was in the fringe minority of Christendom. These denominations led by self proclaimed pastors with an associates degree in Theology should not be spokespeople for Christianity as a whole.

Speaking for myself, we used to play a little D&D after Sunday school at Church while the adults had their coffee and snacks. Bottom line is nobody cared, nobody discriminated against it. Sucks that some of you had to deal with that bullsh*t.

The only discrimination I & my peers faced was the "Geek factor" involved with playing the game.


Jean-Paul Sartre, Intrnet Troll wrote:

Aretas, I'm going to just try this one more time because since you haven't acknowledged my posts on the matter (just like you have never acknowledged that there were, in fact, people in your thread who also didn't like Obama): do you or do you not understand that that thread was closed because people were being mean to you and NOT because you were attacking the liberals' lider maximo?

Also, there probably is a liberal bias to these boards, which is too bad. I've been trying for the past year to tilt that bias to a revolutionary socialist one, but it isn't working.

Jean,

Sorry I did not notice the initial question.

Yes, I do know that it was closed b/c members were being rude and absurd. Here is my issue.

Why should a post get shut down b/c of the idiots who do not contribute anything to it but ridiculousness?
Its like shouting down a person at a meeting, then that person gets kicked out of the meeting b/c the idiots.

I do not believe the post would have been closed if I mentioned any other political leader. Its as if any critism of President Obama is stifled.

Either have free speech or not. Its true when there is a discussion on homosexual marriage and evil conservatives.
Just saying.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Point of fact, we do NOT have free speech on this board, simply because it is owned by Paizo, who will moderate it as they see fit.


Sanakht Inaros wrote:
Aretas wrote:
ciretose wrote:
XxAnthraxusxX wrote:
It is Christians, if anybody, who are under attack and being persecuted here in the United States and the World at large.
Do you actually believe this, or are you trolling. Because if you are arguing Christians are persecuted more than other religions, that kind of cognitive dissonance is amazing.

Wow, this post is amazing. All these attacks are not in war, they are an attempt to religiously cleanse the area of Christians. I invite you to look it up for yourself.

Egypt: Coptic Christians are literally being bombed before, during and after they attend Church.

Iraq: Aside from the sectarian Islamic violence, the Christian community is under constant attack. Arab Christians and Assyrians are all fleeing this country.

Nigeria: Most recently 150 people died when Muslim fanatics bombed a packed congregation on Easter.

Indonesia: More of the same.

These are just some recent examples. I'm not sure if your a student of history but the middle east of was not always Muslim. The Christians were systematically driven out.
Lebanon was until recently a Christian land. Thanks to Hezbollah and other crazies the Christian community is a twindling one.

This is actually funny too. That in order to convince us that christians are being suppressed in the U.S. he has to look outside of the country for his evidence.

Its funny that you don't see it for yourself. This is real persecution.

The United States has a kind of Fabian style persecution against Christians. A slow & gradual covert persecution.

Andoran

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Aretas,
Yes. Poor oppressed Christians. If only they had, oh, I don't know, the President, the opposition's presidential candidiate, all of both houses of congress, almost all state governors and pretty much every other public official amongst their ranks. Poor, poor persecuted Christians.

Andoran

Aretas wrote:


Its funny that you don't see it for yourself. This is real persecution.
The United States has a kind of Fabian style persecution against Christians. A low & gradual covert persecution.

As opposed to the active inquisitions of Christianity past (and present) on heretics and non-believers?

How are the 78% of American Christians being persecuted?

Days off for Christian Holidays? Check.
No taxation on Christian churches? Check.
Hell, bibles in your hotel room? Check?

Perhaps you mean you are concerned Christianity is in decline?


Paul Watson wrote:

Aretas,

Yes. Poor oppressed Christians. If only they had, oh, I don't know, the President, the opposition's presidential candidiate, all of both houses of congress, almost all state governors and pretty much every other public official amongst their ranks. Poor, poor persecuted Christians.

Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.


ciretose wrote:
Aretas wrote:


Its funny that you don't see it for yourself. This is real persecution.
The United States has a kind of Fabian style persecution against Christians. A low & gradual covert persecution.

As opposed to the active inquisitions of Christianity past (and present) on heretics and non-believers?

How are the 78% of American Christians being persecuted?

Days off for Christian Holidays? Check.
No taxation on Christian churches? Check.
Hell, bibles in your hotel room? Check?

Perhaps you mean you are concerned Christianity is in decline?

I believe your last question was the core of my post.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.

Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

Andoran

Aretas wrote:


Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.

Let me explain.

You made a statement. Several of us think your statement is wrong. And so we are saying that we think you are wrong.

Since you made the initial statement, the onus is on you to defend it.

This part of "discussion" seems to be throwing you off somehow, as people disagreeing with you apparently amounts to "slander, defame, or offend."

Which is ironic, since you are also saying your statements of disapproval aren't inflammatory.

In short, we think your wrong, feel free to present evidence.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the gays.

The evil homosexual agenda has twisted everything. It's even making the Christians oppress themselves.

It's so diabolically clever it even has the US supporting Muslims killing Christians in Egypt, despite Muslims being much worse to the gays.
Wait. I'm not sure how that one benefits the gays. It must though. They're just too clever for me.

Andoran

Ciretose wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Perhaps you mean you are concerned Christianity is in decline?

I believe your last question was the core of my post.

Here is the difference between your position and my position.

I am fine with my Daughter going to church. I am even fine with the agreement I made with my wife that I won't discuss religious matters with her until she is about 12, giving my wife and the church 12 years of a head start at making their case.

Why?

Because I am completely confident that my position is reasonable and logical, and I'm not concerned in the least that my beliefs are "in decline" because I don't get to preach to her about them every day.

I know that the church she is going to teaches moral values I agree with. The fact that they also believe in an invisible person in the sky who will let them into a magical happy land when they die is no more troubling to me than her reading Tolkien or Greek mythology.

I am not afraid of the discussion we will have when she is older about my beliefs, because I know they are based in reason and logic. I don't need a church to indoctrinate her, I don't need a pastor to interpret things for me.

If I say I am an atheist publicly, I would risk losing my job. In many places in America I would be physically in danger if I stated my beliefs openly.

Same with Gays.

Where that happens to Christians, that is oppression. Here in America...please. That is the victimization of America the right keeps heaping on others.

If you are afraid that if your beliefs are confronted by open discussion and reason they will falter, that is a problem of your beliefs.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

The secular left in my opinion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Aretas wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?
The secular left in my opinion.

I think I've said it before in this thread, but I really wish the secular left had half the power the right claims it does.

And what about the religious left? Why are they always ignored? Does the religious right just they don't exist? Or just don't count as religious?


thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the gays.

The evil homosexual agenda has twisted everything. It's even making the Christians oppress themselves.

It's so diabolically clever it even has the US supporting Muslims killing Christians in Egypt, despite Muslims being much worse to the gays.
Wait. I'm not sure how that one benefits the gays. It must though. They're just too clever for me.

Above is an example of how dialogue gets hijacked.

@ Ciretose: Yes I made a statement. You believe and many others believe it is wrong. Please, explain to me why you believe I'm wrong. Instead of sarcastic, snarky comments like the one above and the one just above that by Paul Watson, please have a conversation with me. I would appreciate that.
Thank!

Andoran

Aretas wrote:


Above is an example of how dialogue gets hijacked.

@ Ciretose: Yes I made a statement. You believe and many others believe it is wrong. Please, explain to me why you believe I'm wrong. Instead of sarcastic, snarky comments like the one above and the one just above that by Paul Watson, please have a conversation with me. I would appreciate that.
Thank!

I did. I'll repeat myself.

Christians are 78%. They get days off for Christian Holidays, no taxation on Christian churches, bibles in your hotel room...hell our Calendar is based off of Christ.

Now will you explain how 22% of the population are oppressing you?


Aretas wrote:
thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the gays.

The evil homosexual agenda has twisted everything. It's even making the Christians oppress themselves.

It's so diabolically clever it even has the US supporting Muslims killing Christians in Egypt, despite Muslims being much worse to the gays.
Wait. I'm not sure how that one benefits the gays. It must though. They're just too clever for me.

Above is an example of how dialogue gets hijacked.

@ Ciretose: Yes I made a statement. You believe and many others believe it is wrong. Please, explain to me why you believe I'm wrong. Instead of sarcastic, snarky comments like the one above and the one just above that by Paul Watson, please have a conversation with me. I would appreciate that.
Thank!

Sorry. I get frustrated with these arguments and was riffing off of someone else's post who made pretty much that argument.

So, who in the government do you consider belongs to the "secular left"?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Aretas wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?
The secular left in my opinion.

How, if the lawmakers are all Christian?

Andoran

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?
The secular left in my opinion.
How, if the lawmakers are all Christian?

Relevant.


ciretose wrote:
Ciretose wrote:
Aretas wrote:

Perhaps you mean you are concerned Christianity is in decline?

I believe your last question was the core of my post.

Here is the difference between your position and my position.

I am fine with my Daughter going to church. I am even fine with the agreement I made with my wife that I won't discuss religious matters with her until she is about 12, giving my wife and the church 12 years of a head start at making their case.

Why?

Because I am completely confident that my position is reasonable and logical, and I'm not concerned in the least that my beliefs are "in decline" because I don't get to preach to her about them every day.

I know that the church she is going to teaches moral values I agree with. The fact that they also believe in an invisible person in the sky who will let them into a magical happy land when they die is no more troubling to me than her reading Tolkien or Greek mythology.

I am not afraid of the discussion we will have when she is older about my beliefs, because I know they are based in reason and logic. I don't need a church to indoctrinate her, I don't need a pastor to interpret things for me.

If I say I am an atheist publicly, I would risk losing my job. In many places in America I would be physically in danger if I stated my beliefs openly.

Same with Gays.

Where that happens to Christians, that is oppression. Here in America...please. That is the victimization of America the right keeps heaping on others.

If you are afraid that if your beliefs are confronted by open discussion and reason they will falter, that is a problem of your beliefs.

On the contrary, I do not believe if my beliefs are confronted and discussed they will falter.

To propose as fact that Christianity is devoid of reason and logic is a bit misleading. I have read many scholars propose the same argument to atheism.
I would be really happy if we can have a dialogue one topic at a time without the distractions of the board as a whole. Please feel welcome to send me a private email for ongoing discussion.

I do not know any place in the western world that will kill you because your an atheist. I'm sorry you believe you will lose your job if people know your an atheist. Is that something you can call a lawyer on?

Take care.


thejeff wrote:
Aretas wrote:
thejeff wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Aretas wrote:
Is there a question/response in there somewhere? I'm not sure in what way your attempting to slander, defame, or offend someone.
Who is able to oppress Christians when nearly the entire governing body is composed of Christians?

Haven't you been paying attention? It's the gays.

The evil homosexual agenda has twisted everything. It's even making the Christians oppress themselves.

It's so diabolically clever it even has the US supporting Muslims killing Christians in Egypt, despite Muslims being much worse to the gays.
Wait. I'm not sure how that one benefits the gays. It must though. They're just too clever for me.

Above is an example of how dialogue gets hijacked.

@ Ciretose: Yes I made a statement. You believe and many others believe it is wrong. Please, explain to me why you believe I'm wrong. Instead of sarcastic, snarky comments like the one above and the one just above that by Paul Watson, please have a conversation with me. I would appreciate that.
Thank!

Sorry. I get frustrated with these arguments and was riffing off of someone else's post who made pretty much that argument.

So, who in the government do you consider belongs to the "secular left"?

Thats cool. I have been guilty many times!

Ask TriOmega!

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Aretas,
Why should we ask TOZ? You're the one who blamed the 'persecution' of Christians on the Secular Left. So, who are they? The Democrats who are mostly Christian? The President,who is Christian? The constitution? Ok, there you have a point as it's explicitly secular and says no one religion should be raised over the others. Maybe thats who's opporessing the poor Christians.

Also, my snark is to point out the ridiculousness of your point. Make reasonable points and I'll engage reasonably. Start ranting and raving about how you're being persecuted when it's clear you aren't and you'll get snark because there isn't a reasonable response to such utter nonsense.


Paul Watson wrote:

Aretas,

Why should we ask TOZ? You're the one who blamed the 'persecution' of Christians on the Secular Left. So, who are they? The Democrats who are mostly Christian? The President,who is Christian? The constitution? Ok, there you have a point as it's explicitly secular and says no one religion should be raised over the others. Maybe thats who's opporessing the poor Christians.

Also, my snark is to point out the ridiculousness of your point. Make reasonable points and I'll engage reasonably. Start ranting and raving about how you're being persecuted when it's clear you aren't and you'll get snark because there isn't a reasonable response to such utter nonsense.

To be fair I think he's saying "Ask TriOmega!" about him being guilty of getting frustrated.

Still doesn't answer the question about all the secular leftists controlling the government.


I'd like to know how exactly Christians are being persecuted in the United States. I mean, specifically.

I don't feel persecuted as a Christian. I feel persecuted as a gay man.

Is this alleged persecution because creationism isn't taught in public school science class rooms?

Is this alleged persecution because there isn't a Christian in every single tv show being broadcast (though there are several in many of the programs I watch - Glee, for example, has two and has even shown church services being held and people praying for each other)?

is this alleged persecution because a homophobic bigoted Christian organization like the Boy Scouts gets government financial support?

Or is all this persecution of Christians based on 'evidence' that is no more substantial than the babbling of somebody sucking on an old car's tail pipe?


Hmm what a wonderful world it would be if we could all just call a truce, and concede that not every Christian is like one of those 40 freaks from Westboro Baptist, and that not every gay man is John Wayne Gacy. :)


Darkwing Duck wrote:

I'd like to know how exactly Christians are being persecuted in the United States. I mean, specifically.

I don't feel persecuted as a Christian. I feel persecuted as a gay man.

Is this alleged persecution because creationism isn't taught in public school science class rooms?

Is this alleged persecution because there isn't a Christian in every single tv show being broadcast (though there are several in many of the programs I watch - Glee, for example, has two and has even shown church services being held and people praying for each other)?

is this alleged persecution because a homophobic bigoted Christian organization like the Boy Scouts gets government financial support?

Or is all this persecution of Christians based on 'evidence' that is no more substantial than the babbling of somebody sucking on an old car's tail pipe?

It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.


Hee hee!

I don't think either of those opinions have been expressed on these boards or in this thread, but thanks for the contribution, Anthraxus!


thejeff wrote:


It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.

I do believe that racism against whites exists. I think the whole Zimmerman/Martin thing played into that pretty well, so, too, did the Duke Lacrosse scandal.

Alleged prejudice against Christians in the US is just a none-starter.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

As to treatment of homosexuals by Christians historically, here is an interesting article about homosexuality in the middle ages written by a professor at Fordham University.

It discusses, among other things, that the Catholic Church did not activly have a problem with homosexuality until the 13th century. While the sexual acts often involved in homosexuality were frowned upon by the church, such restrictions were often ignored, and were equally stigmatized for heterosexuals performing them.

It points out Richard I, the exemplar of knightly and manly virtue (at the time) was rather open in his relationships with other men. The author seems to associate the change in the perception with the adoption of the Justinian code for secular laws,which outlawed homosexuality. (The Romans had a social stigma against it.) Interesting read.


XxAnthraxusxX wrote:
Hmm what a wonderful world it would be if we could all just call a truce, and concede that not every Christian is like one of those 40 freaks from Westboro Baptist, and that not every gay man is John Wayne Gacy. :)

Point of order Westboro Baptist church has nearly 100 members, and most of them are either family or extended family of Fred Phelps the pastor :P


Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:


It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.

I do believe that racism against whites exists. I think the whole Zimmerman/Martin thing played into that pretty well, so, too, did the Duke Lacrosse scandal.

Alleged prejudice against Christians in the US is just a none-starter.

Technically, I'd say racism against whites and prejudice against Christians both exist.

Neither is a significant problem. Both of them pale in comparison to the reverse forms.


thejeff wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:


It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.

I do believe that racism against whites exists. I think the whole Zimmerman/Martin thing played into that pretty well, so, too, did the Duke Lacrosse scandal.

Alleged prejudice against Christians in the US is just a none-starter.

Technically, I'd say racism against whites and prejudice against Christians both exist.

Neither is a significant problem. Both of them pale in comparison to the reverse forms.

I just can't imagine that the Duke Lacrosse tem felt the racism they experienced was insignificant.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:


It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.

I do believe that racism against whites exists. I think the whole Zimmerman/Martin thing played into that pretty well, so, too, did the Duke Lacrosse scandal.

Alleged prejudice against Christians in the US is just a none-starter.

Technically, I'd say racism against whites and prejudice against Christians both exist.

Neither is a significant problem. Both of them pale in comparison to the reverse forms.
I just can't imagine that the Duke Lacrosse tem felt the racism they experienced was insignificant.

Of course. Every incident of prejudice is significant to those affected.

But compared to the massive, constant, institutional racism blacks experience, racism against whites isn't a significant problem for this country.


Do you think the Duke Lacrosse team incident would have played out differently if the woman making the accusation was white? That's a real question, not me being snarky.

I also don't see how calling for an investigation of a person who shot an unarmed teen is racist against whites, but there's another thread for that.


thejeff wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
thejeff wrote:


It's the same as "racism against whites". They're discriminated against because they're losing the privileged status they've come to expect.

I do believe that racism against whites exists. I think the whole Zimmerman/Martin thing played into that pretty well, so, too, did the Duke Lacrosse scandal.

Alleged prejudice against Christians in the US is just a none-starter.

Technically, I'd say racism against whites and prejudice against Christians both exist.

Neither is a significant problem. Both of them pale in comparison to the reverse forms.
I just can't imagine that the Duke Lacrosse tem felt the racism they experienced was insignificant.

Of course. Every incident of prejudice is significant to those affected.

But compared to the massive, constant, institutional racism blacks experience, racism against whites isn't a significant problem for this country.

We're heading into an area better left for a different thread, but what -objective- evidence would make you decide that "massive, constant, institutional" racism against blacks was behind us?


Maybe I'm terribly, terribly stupid, but I haven't seen anyone claim it is behind us.


Hitdice wrote:

Do you think the Duke Lacrosse team incident would have played out differently if the woman making the accusation was white? That's a real question, not me being snarky.

I also don't see how calling for an investigation of a person who shot an unarmed teen is racist against whites, but there's another thread for that.

Yes, I do believe that the Duke scandal would have played out differently if the woman was white.

And if the only thing the public had done in the Zimmerman/Martin case was demand an investigation, I wouldn't have referenced it.


Hitdice wrote:
Maybe I'm terribly, terribly stupid, but I haven't seen anyone claim it is behind us.

Point?


Darkwing Duck wrote:

We're heading into an area better left for a different thread, but what -objective- evidence would make you decide that "massive, constant, institutional" racism against blacks was behind us?

Well, I'd start with them not being behind bars in disproportionate numbers to their weight in the population, and then I'd probably want to see them not having disproportionate amount of unemployment, and then, probably somewhere in there, I'd want to see a socialist revolution. For starters.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
We're heading into an area better left for a different thread, but what -objective- evidence would make you decide that "massive, constant, institutional" racism against blacks was behind us?

I'm not going to answer that. I'm not an expert on testing racial attitudes and any answer I could give would just lead to endless nit-picking.

Do you want to claim that such racism is behind us?
Is there another reason for asking your question?

Shadow Lodge

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KitsuneSoup wrote:
I just wish I could be Christian and not lumped in with all the others. I'm tolerant, intelligent, and while I have faith, it's in people as much as it is in God. I don't pray for magical healing from the stars, but if God is willing to nudge the surgeon's hand from time to time, that's cool.

The problem is that whatever the actual percentages, the bible thumping gay hating kill a democrat communist for god are both a sizable chunk of the christian population in America and a VERY vocal part of American Christianity.

Quote:
But I have too many friends that are have had so many bad experiences with Christians, or that are their own personal brand of atheist (where their atheism is a religion, or it's not atheism, it's just Christian-bashing)

Does that make it a religion though? If someone has bad experiences with X, reasonably reaches the conclussion that X is bad... SHOULDN"T they be warning people about X?

Quote:
or just plain believe that Christians have to be idiot Westboro jacks, that I find myself giving up on trying to convince them that you can be a person of faith while not being a hate-mongering fifth grader, and instead just be a loving, peaceful person.

Well who's fault is this really?

Quote:
There are a number of posts that are "this is the problem with Christians", "This is why I hate Christians", etc. I understand it's currently still chic to hate Christians. Do you hate the people, or do you hate the church? Do you hate the message, or do you hate the doctrine?

If you want to distinguish yourself from the stereotypical herd of Christianity you can start by leaving behind the standard argument that christian bashing is being done because its the "in" thing to do. I think it should be pretty obvious from the answers on the thread that the answer is all of the above.

Unbelievers may hate the people for reasons both wide spread and very personal. Its very hard NOT to hate westboro baptists yahoos, Jerry Falwel blaming me for 9 11 , or Ralph Reed trying to push christian moral education in public schools.

Unbelievers may hate organized religion but I think its with good reason. It has a very long and very bloody track record of claiming the moral high-ground but acting with a bloodthirsty viciousness normally applied to Saturday morning cartoon villains.

Unbelievers may hate the doctrine because, lets be honest, a LOT of it... isn't nice. You have the alleged author and lord of morality ordering the slaughter of innocent children, women being married to their rapists, an order to stone gays to death, Stone rape victims to death for not crying out in a city, stone witches to death, stone adulterers to death... lets just say biblical justice looks a lot like equine medicine.

Some Christians seriously try to twist this around and shoehorn the passages into modern morality and its just not working. We can see the text there for ourselves, it says what it says. Its not out of "context", its not some bizarre metaphor: its simply barbaric and often times outright evil. Excuses that we're reading it wrong just add insult.

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