Hmm seems at this point AM might need to pick up a bunch of diviner simulacrum with a focus on counter spelling.
Hmm seems at this point AM might need to pick up a bunch of diviner simulacrum with a focus on counter spelling.
The problem is diviner simulacrum aren't going to be able to pierce mind blank any better than AM can since they are going to max out at 10th level.
Besides how is AM going to manage that on his own and how is this not simply making casters do his job for him?
I mean I'm good with him having magical equipment because he could be buying it from non-casters or something -- items I'm not too worried about, but spells on a regular basis especially from simulacrums means he's simply the BSF following casters around again, he's no longer the martial character that can handle it on his own.
Simulacrum aren't casters they are spell effects. He can UMD the spell and create as many as he wants as part of his wealth allocation. They may act in the surprise round and with a high enough Initiative will probably able to ready counter spell actions. It is something that a character without a single spell may accomplish of course leaving it to BATTY BAT is also an option.
call me wierd if you like, but i prefer the image of AM BARBARIAN riding around on something a little more traditional than an eighteenth level summoner. maybe a dragon or something, even if it's technically suboptimal (a dragon that's suboptimal. if ever there was a sign we've overthought a build then it's that.)
also, can someone explain in small words for me how AM can have a practical charge range of over 120 foot if he relies on arcane sight for his target identification system? it's probably been covered before, but i missed it.
(i'm still of the opinion that the best way to defeat AM in his current incarnation is to find some way of making him defeat himself. maybe a silent image and a really big cliff...)
I'll help. Several threads ago. Yes, threads, who's telling the story?
Some people decided that full casters, specially wizards, were the most powerfull classes in the game and capable of singlehandedly defeating anything.
It actually dates back much more than that......to even before last Thursday.
There was an ancient film called Stand By Me.Two enlightened and totally supragenius philosopher kings were sitting around a campfire, and one asked, in a moment of supreme insight, "who do you think would win: Superman or Mighty Mouse?" He was such a genius that he even made Jean Luc Picard call him "The Sublime Master of the 4 Winds," and never facepalm in his presence or anything like that.
An entire post postmodernist philosophical movement was created by these geniuses, and you have here two camps:
the neopostpostmodern literalists actually not only believe anybody cares about this pedantic crap, but see it as a way to win the internet and by doing so gain breeding access to supermodels who want to mother good looking Huxleyan Alphas, and suckle this immaculately dressed next generation's intellectual elite at their bosom
and
the neoabsurdists, who are only here for PROFIT.
Simulacrum aren't casters they are spell effects. He can UMD the spell and create as many as he wants as part of his wealth allocation. They may act in the surprise round and with a high enough Initiative will probably able to ready counter spell actions. It is something that a character without a single spell may accomplish of course leaving it to BATTY BAT is also an option.
What are they going to counter with a caster level of 10?
And are you sure he can actually make both of the DC's for using the scrolls? Not to mention the fact he's still just another martial character hiding behind casters again at that point.
Lame.
I would purpose that instead of focusing on having an army of casters we instead look for better means of detection, not to suggest that I know the mind of AM but I can't help but feel that he wouldn't approve of hiding behind sims (of casters no less) in order to survive.
Either that or he needs an Aegis, I would suggest that such a thing would work best if it was a somehow permanent anti-magic field.
Granted such wouldn't provide absolute protection, but it would be difficult to detect and would give him more warning of impending attack.
My problem with this is that creating a small army of clones for the purpose of assassination is an eeevil strategy. No matter how CE you think AM is, going against him with so powerful a force is simply unfair. And unfair fights are for evil characters.Disagree. Compelling stories put good characters against a seemingly unbeatable enemy. That doesn't mean that being good means always being against the odds. If good has 50 knights and horribly evil demon is by himself, it doesn't make sense for good to send in 2 knights because that seems fair.
But even ignoring that, "fairness" is decided by the balance of the game. I think that's sort of the whole point of the exercise. According to the game, AM is fair in the sense that any way to create a PC is fair, short of GM fiat. You can make a wizard with a cohort and dozens of simulacra. That is just as fair as AM.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by fairness. I meant fairness as considered by a Lawful Good character. I think it's totally "fair" to destroy AM BARBARIAN with anything you can get/create for WBL 20. I did it. But the character I did it with is Lawful Evil, and has no illusions about that. Ambushing a wizard-slaying barbarian with no warning is an evil act.
I suppose you could argue that AM's plan is to swoop in unawares to destroy this casty, and that anything he gets to destroy him he deserves, but I just have trouble swallowing this as being kosher with a Paladin's moral code.
So, I notice nobody picked apart my CLONEBOMBNUKE. So I guess it worked?
... is that why we haven't heard from AM lately?
... is he...
... dead?
So, I notice nobody picked apart my CLONEBOMBNUKE. So I guess it worked?
... is that why we haven't heard from AM lately?
... is he...
... dead?
Been there, tried that. first time i killed him i don't think he even noticed, and the second time i just made him more powerful. while CLONEBOMBNUKE is not my kind of tactic (too many resources powering down a single foe. while i am that petty, i've got bigger fish to nuke) it seems to work well enough, plays on AM's known stratigies and abilities, and would leave a massive uninhabitable crater where there used to be a fertile forest.
all in all, i think it ticks most of the boxes for massive overkill, and therefore gets two big thumbs up from me. incidently, it also gets you and all your sims a restraining order of about a thousand KM from me. ;)
So, I notice nobody picked apart my CLONEBOMBNUKE. So I guess it worked?
... is that why we haven't heard from AM lately?
... is he...
... dead?
Been there, tried that. first time i killed him i don't think he even noticed, and the second time i just made him more powerful. while CLONEBOMBNUKE is not my kind of tactic (too many resources powering down a single foe. while i am that petty, i've got bigger fish to nuke) it seems to work well enough, plays on AM's known stratigies and abilities, and would leave a massive uninhabitable crater where there used to be a fertile forest.
all in all, i think it ticks most of the boxes for massive overkill, and therefore gets two big thumbs up from me. incidently, it also gets you and all your sims a restraining order of about a thousand KM from me. ;)
Awesome. I guess I'll have to take them back to the lab and change their appearance. Maybe make them all look like Don Knotts. Or even better, Anna Torv.
Say, this might be a way to generate some decent gp...
(profit?)
Awesome. I guess I'll have to take them back to the lab and change their appearance. Maybe make them all look like Don Knotts. Or even better, Anna Torv.
Say, this might be a way to generate some decent gp...
(profit?)
if you're thinking what i think you're thinking, i'd advise against it. rebuilding simularcrums costs a lot of GP, and it'll take you quite a while to make it back like that. anyway, isn't being disguised to bypass a legal restriction against the paladin's code or something?
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Nowadays the trend has revesed, instead of martial builds trying to defeat Schroedingers caster, it's the caster that are trying to come up with a plan to defeat AM BARBARIAN. That is what this thread is about.
And THAT is the true legacy of AM BARBARIAN, no caster may ever claim to be at the top of the power tier, without the spirit of AM BARBARIAN "dream sundering" his way into reality just to kick his butt ^_^
And THAT is the true legacy of AM BARBARIAN, no caster may ever claim to be at the top of the power tier, without the spirit of AM BARBARIAN "dream sundering" his way into reality just to kick his butt ^_^
Nowadays the trend has revesed, instead of martial builds trying to defeat Schroedingers caster, it's the caster that are trying to come up with a plan to defeat AM BARBARIAN. That is what this thread is about.
Except for being safe in the knowledge that AM can't actually find his way out of midair.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by fairness. I meant fairness as considered by a Lawful Good character. I think it's totally "fair" to destroy AM BARBARIAN with anything you can get/create for WBL 20. I did it. But the character I did it with is Lawful Evil, and has no illusions about that. Ambushing a wizard-slaying barbarian with no warning is an evil act.
I suppose you could argue that AM's plan is to swoop in unawares to destroy this casty, and that anything he gets to destroy him he deserves, but I just have trouble swallowing this as being kosher with a Paladin's moral code.
I understand exactly what you mean. If AM had done no murdering at all, then ambushing him would indeed be evil. But he's become level 20 through the outright murder of casties no questions asked. Let's say we are dealing with a good character whose main goal is redemption. This redemption caster goes to have a kind chat with AM and gets murdered. Do you think the redemption caster's buddies are going to continue this strategy? If so, how many will need to die before they try the ambush strategy? Or is the ambush strategy out of the question for good characters forever?
If you don't see my point at this time, I think maybe we should just agree to disagree about how alignment works ;)
Counter spells for the spells being cast by the simulacrum hordes being sent at him. I haven't checked out the clone bomb nuke tactic but the only other viable option so far I have seen has been to hide from AM with permanent invisibility and mind blank.
Yeah Simulacrum bombing seems very effective, if AM has a ranged weapon he can fire pot shots at them from the sky safely without fear of reprisal but that goes against the spirit of RAGELANCEPOUNCE. AM BARBARIAN can benefit from mind blank either through UMD or simply by intimidating mages then slaying them when he has what he wants he is apparently evil anyway.
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Who's ambushing who here? I'm having a picnic in a field with some friends. It's not my fault he decides to attack me. I'm perfectly willing to leave AM alone; the only thing that triggers my actions is him starting to attack me.
Also, AM is moving fairly quickly; how would he ever get his counterspelling horde to keep up? While he could certainly afford a simulacrum that duplicates BATTY BAT, he couldn't afford enough of them to matter...and even if he somehow did, don't we get right back to the situation of him needing a caster to prop him up?
if you're thinking what i think you're thinking, i'd advise against it. rebuilding simularcrums costs a lot of GP, and it'll take you quite a while to make it back like that. anyway, isn't being disguised to bypass a legal restriction against the paladin's code or something?
Awesome. I guess I'll have to take them back to the lab and change their appearance. Maybe make them all look like Don Knotts. Or even better, Anna Torv.
Say, this might be a way to generate some decent gp...
(profit?)
Paladin's whatnow?
He doesn't need a caster to prop him up he either forces the caster to provide him with services through a skill any character can pick up or uses items to create spell effects with UMD a skill anyone can pick up. Restricting the actions AM BARBARIAN can take just shows casters can't beat him without a handicap. The fact is all characters are expected to have access to magic and AM BARBARIAN can and should make use of all his options.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by fairness. I meant fairness as considered by a Lawful Good character. I think it's totally "fair" to destroy AM BARBARIAN with anything you can get/create for WBL 20. I did it. But the character I did it with is Lawful Evil, and has no illusions about that. Ambushing a wizard-slaying barbarian with no warning is an evil act.
I suppose you could argue that AM's plan is to swoop in unawares to destroy this casty, and that anything he gets to destroy him he deserves, but I just have trouble swallowing this as being kosher with a Paladin's moral code.
I understand exactly what you mean. If AM had done no murdering at all, then ambushing him would indeed be evil. But he's become level 20 through the outright murder of casties no questions asked. Let's say we are dealing with a good character whose main goal is redemption. This redemption caster goes to have a kind chat with AM and gets murdered. Do you think the redemption caster's buddies are going to continue this strategy? If so, how many will need to die before they try the ambush strategy? Or is the ambush strategy out of the question for good characters forever?
If you don't see my point at this time, I think maybe we should just agree to disagree about how alignment works ;)
I do see your point. I don't think AMBUSH is inherently evil, but Lethal Ambush? It kind of amounts to a death sentence, no trial, yeah? I think it comes down to a DM call. If your GM is from Texas (AM BUSH. DEATH PENALTY OK), I'd say you're probably golden. If I was the GM, I wouldn't automatically overrule it, but I would want to hear arguments as to why it parses.
Deathspot's version of the argument (AM HAVING PICNIC WITH FRIENDS. LETHAL AMBUSH FOR DEFENSE ONLY. NO ATTACK WITH RAGELANCEPOUNCE, NO GET AMBUSHED. ERGO AM REMAINING LAWFUL GOOD) is, I'll admit, fairly compelling.
That said, to call shenanigans on AM for using simulacra (something he never said he'd do) as being "leaning on a casty" and then lean on no less than 40 Paladins for protection? Fer shame.
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Hey, it's only 20 simulacra of paladins. I made 'em myself!
But seriously, that's only one of the tactics that can beat AM. There are others, a few of which start with my cohort casting dictum and AM being paralyzed for a round. He needs a ring of freedom of movement to go with his...three?...four?...other rings. Which is certainly doable, and could force a different set of tactics.
Note to Self: Edict doesn't allow a save either, and will charm him for a round. Freedom won't help.
So now AM needs a constant protection from good item as well.
Yes, this drifts into Schroedinger's territory...but there are a lot of AM-killing tactics out there, and he's got to prepare for all of them.
Oh, and a wall of suppression cancels out most of AM's defenses, doesn't it? And if I cast it so he's in the area of effect when it appears, he won't be able to sunder it before it strips all his magical defenses. So now we're back to death by dictum.
We certainly are getting the cream of the caster crop in here much better ideas are being thrown around now than in the caster martial disparity one. Though most of the good ideas hinge on going first and being aware of AM BARBARIANS build to some degree. Except that Bomb one I think that just hinges on AM BARBARIAN always charging everything.
It seems the two major challenges to AM right now are:
- A casty can jack up his stealth such that casty notices AM before AM notices casty.
- A casty can create an army, and win in a 40-on-1 fight.
However, these two strategies work at cross purposes. It seems a single caster can get the drop of AM, but doesn't have a reliable way of killing him (stands a reasonable chance sure, but if it fails, AM splats him). Casty can get a pretty guaranteed kill by using his army, but I don't think the army can get the drop on AM. Without running the numbers, it seems like AM (or BATTY BAT) will be able to spot the trap before the trap spots him. All AM has to do to make this a draw is add "don't attack casties in the center of an army" to his strategy. That's a pretty reasonable strategy even if AM isn't expecting them all to suicide-bomb him.
Trinam,
I realize you already have a progression picked out for AM, but instead of 19 Barbarian/1 Oracle, have you considered 17 Barbarian/3 Horizon Walker? Take Desert for Favored Terrain, Terrain Mastery and Terrain Dominance.
Pros:
+1 BAB
+1 Fort Save
Fire Resistance 10
Immune to Exhausted condition
Immune to Fatigued condition
No longer a casty
Cons:
Used Feat(Endurance)
-1 Superstition Bonus to saves
-2 Will Save
-1 Rage Power
-1 DR/-
I do see your point. I don't think AMBUSH is inherently evil, but Lethal Ambush? It kind of amounts to a death sentence, no trial, yeah? I think it comes down to a DM call. If your GM is from Texas (AM BUSH. DEATH PENALTY OK), I'd say you're probably golden. If I was the GM, I wouldn't automatically overrule it, but I would want to hear arguments as to why it parses.
This is an case of applying real world morality to the game though. In real life, I don't think violence or killing solves anything. I think we're eventually headed to a world where wars, which unfortunately complicate and test such beliefs, will no longer be necessary. Golarion and most campaign settings are not such a world. In Pathfinder, killing for fun or because of duty to evil master is evil. Protecting innocent life, however, is good. AM is out killing plenty of innocent life. So it follows that doing anything to stop that from happening is good.
(Side note: depending on Paladin's deity, there may be various rules about going about killing AM, but they all allow killing him as a final resort)
Look at it a different way. There's a mindless monster who flies around and kills people. 50 good characters ambush this beast and destroy it, saving the world from further loss of innocent life. I'm guessing you wouldn't see a problem. The only difference here is that AM is not mindless. He still contributes nothing to society though, killing anything that resembles a caster. And since some poor redemption based caster tried to speak with him and was murdered (probably one of those diviners from earlier), it seems fair to kill him.
Alternatively, don't forget we're talking about 20th level characters. You can quite easily apply real world morality to this situation. Ridiculous caster with 40 helpers kills AM and his cohort. They then remove all their helpful gear, bind them up, and resurrect them to stand trial.
I do see your point. I don't think AMBUSH is inherently evil, but Lethal Ambush? It kind of amounts to a death sentence, no trial, yeah? I think it comes down to a DM call. If your GM is from Texas (AM BUSH. DEATH PENALTY OK), I'd say you're probably golden. If I was the GM, I wouldn't automatically overrule it, but I would want to hear arguments as to why it parses.This is an case of applying real world morality to the game though. In real life, I don't think violence or killing solves anything. I think we're eventually headed to a world where wars, which unfortunately complicate and test such beliefs, will no longer be necessary. Golarion and most campaign settings are not such a world. In Pathfinder, killing for fun or because of duty to evil master is evil. Protecting innocent life, however, is good. AM is out killing plenty of innocent life. So it follows that doing anything to stop that from happening is good.
(Side note: depending on Paladin's deity, there may be various rules about going about killing AM, but they all allow killing him as a final resort)
Look at it a different way. There's a mindless monster who flies around and kills people. 50 good characters ambush this beast and destroy it, saving the world from further loss of innocent life. I'm guessing you wouldn't see a problem. The only difference here is that AM is not mindless. He still contributes nothing to society though, killing anything that resembles a caster. And since some poor redemption based caster tried to speak with him and was murdered (probably one of those diviners from earlier), it seems fair to kill him.
Alternatively, don't forget we're talking about 20th level characters. You can quite easily apply real world morality to this situation. Ridiculous caster with 40 helpers kills AM and his cohort. They then remove all their helpful gear, bind them up, and resurrect them to stand trial.
Honestly, why bother with the Paladins at all? Can't you just have some of your wizards cast Hostile Juxtaposition on your divine casty with their awesome initiative/surprise roundness? Won't that achieve the exact same effect as the Paladin's Sacrifice?
Worried about Sundering? Cast a bunch of disintegrates at him as well. He can't sunder everything.
If it works, and you end up killing AM, you did it without resorting to using Martial classes, whereas he had to use a Summoner cohort. Win/win, yeah? And now you can call the authorities and have your raise dead and your trial. Or not, because you didn't bother with alignment restrictions and you're true neutral. Or whatever.
@Truth Serum
AM BARBARIAN is a Barbarian 20. BATTY BAT is an Oracle 1/Synthesist 17.
As for clone/simulacarum tactics...
Remember AM can buy stuff too. In the case of clusters of followers hanging tight to the coattails of the wizard, I suggest necklaces of missiles.
Take about five of those cheap things, take off the missiles, put them in a container, and batty-bat can fling them ahead on the approach.
Those level 10 Simulacarums are going to have 75ish hit points tops. 30d6 of missiles (which is low), they make all their saves...and they all die regardless.
And then they blow up with the caster still in their midst, to opera music.
That would be absolutely hilarious.
And you know that Trinam was talking about bombing runs. He was just renting an alchemist instead of using cheap Necklaces of Missiles.
And he could easily replace them with the loot left behind just by the small army, no?
==+Aelryinth
@Truth Serum
AM BARBARIAN is a Barbarian 20. BATTY BAT is an Oracle 1/Synthesist 17.
Well... that's an embarrassingly obvious fact.
One would think that, after 4,000 posts on the subject across various threads, my brain would fact-check before declaring "Ooh! A shiny!"
So, where has Trinam been?
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As for clone/simulacarum tactics...
Remember AM can buy stuff too. In the case of clusters of followers hanging tight to the coattails of the wizard, I suggest necklaces of missiles.
Take about five of those cheap things, take off the missiles, put them in a container, and batty-bat can fling them ahead on the approach.
Those level 10 Simulacarums are going to have 75ish hit points tops. 30d6 of missiles (which is low), they make all their saves...and they all die regardless.
And then they blow up with the caster still in their midst, to opera music.
That would be absolutely hilarious.
And you know that Trinam was talking about bombing runs. He was just renting an alchemist instead of using cheap Necklaces of Missiles.
And he could easily replace them with the loot left behind just by the small army, no?
==+Aelryinth
Five necklaces, check. Putting them into a container, check. The act of putting them in the container means you've got to let go. So the first one goes off in the container. Plan B time. Alternately, you can rule that BATTY BAT can throw the missiles, which may be better. But he's still only going to get one missile off per round, not all of them. And max range on the missile, even if you rule that BATTY BAT can throw it, is only 70 feet. That's something of a problem, since he's only going to get one chance, and the max damage he'll get is about 35 damage, plus or minus a bit, which isn't going to kill any of my simulacra. And now AM and BATTY BAT are in my range, and done for the round, since BATTY BAT took a move and a standard action. Oh, and AM never even got to RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Maybe having BATTY BAT take actions other than movement isn't such a great idea after all?
EDIT: Okay, let's say that fireball missiles CAN be put in a container and thrown. Max range on the container is...um...50 feet. Now you're inside the range of my simulacra.
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So, where has Trinam been?
I'm assuming he got hit with some sort of experimental ray that made AM BARBARIAN enter the real world, and now the two are in a road movie/buddy comedy on a quest to save Christmas.
"WHAT YOU MEAN, NO CAN SQUEEZE DOWN CHIMNEY RIDING BATTY BAT? NO HAVE PROOF, ONLY SAY 'BARBARIAN TOTALLY CAN'T DO THAT'. BARBARIAN USE +61 ESCAPE ARTIST AND SHOW YOU."
"Barbarian, no!"
(Chimney explodes)
"Here we go again..."
BATTY BAT AM NOT BE RUDOLPH, AM DIBS ON BLITZEN. HIM AM ONLY NAME SOUND FAST ENOUGH.
I see a bad version of Home Alone meets Road Warrior.
I see a bad version of Home Alone meets Road Warrior.
How could it be bad? It sounds weirdly awesome. Or awesomely weird.
Just don't ask why they need to fill in for the casty with the enormous bag of holding...
As for clone/simulacarum tactics...
Remember AM can buy stuff too. In the case of clusters of followers hanging tight to the coattails of the wizard, I suggest necklaces of missiles.
Take about five of those cheap things, take off the missiles, put them in a container, and batty-bat can fling them ahead on the approach.
Those level 10 Simulacarums are going to have 75ish hit points tops. 30d6 of missiles (which is low), they make all their saves...and they all die regardless.
And then they blow up with the caster still in their midst, to opera music.
That would be absolutely hilarious.
And you know that Trinam was talking about bombing runs. He was just renting an alchemist instead of using cheap Necklaces of Missiles.
And he could easily replace them with the loot left behind just by the small army, no?
==+Aelryinth
Five necklaces, check. Putting them into a container, check. The act of putting them in the container means you've got to let go. So the first one goes off in the container. Plan B time. Alternately, you can rule that BATTY BAT can throw the missiles, which may be better. But he's still only going to get one missile off per round, not all of them. And max range on the missile, even if you rule that BATTY BAT can throw it, is only 70 feet. That's something of a problem, since he's only going to get one chance, and the max damage he'll get is about 35 damage, plus or minus a bit, which isn't going to kill any of my simulacra. And now AM and BATTY BAT are in my range, and done for the round, since BATTY BAT took a move and a standard action. Oh, and AM never even got to RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Maybe having BATTY BAT take actions other than movement isn't such a great idea after all?
EDIT: Okay, let's say that fireball missiles CAN be put in a container and thrown. Max range on the container is...um...50 feet. Now you're inside the range of my simulacra.
Says you can chuck the orb up to 70 feet. Says nothing about how far you can chuck a container full of detached orbs.
It also doesn't say how far you can drop them. Airborne, remember? MOdify Batty Bat with a flinging tail and I bet he could toss a bomb quite a distance.
And the least of those necklaces deals in excess of 20d6, so he's basically buying fireball damage at 150 gp a die. 40d6 dmg is 6K gp, and basically an autokill on your simulacrum horde.
===Aelryinth
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Well, either the orbs will go off when you let go of them, or you're tossing ammunition to the other side. You're trying to have it both ways with putting them in a container. I can see an argument for it working either way (go off when you let go vs. being able to put them in the container), but not changing the mechanic mid-throw. And if BATTY BAT is going to throw them, he's got to take a standard action to do so. So no RAGELANCEPOUNCE no matter what if you use necklace missiles. AM may not really like that tactic. Also, max range on an improvised weapon is 50 feet (five 10-foot range increments). No way around that in RAW. So either throw one, or toss me some ammo, or blow up the first one in the container.
Does anyone know if Trinam posted the google doc he mentioned a few pages back?
BATTY BAT AM NOT BE RUDOLPH, AM DIBS ON BLITZEN. HIM AM ONLY NAME SOUND FAST ENOUGH.
AM CASTING CONTINUAL FLAME ON BATTY BAT'S NOSE, AM DISMISSING ON NEW YEARS.
So, where has Trinam been?I'm assuming he got hit with some sort of experimental ray that made AM BARBARIAN enter the real world, and now the two are in a road movie/buddy comedy on a quest to save Christmas.
"WHAT YOU MEAN, NO CAN SQUEEZE DOWN CHIMNEY RIDING BATTY BAT? NO HAVE PROOF, ONLY SAY 'BARBARIAN TOTALLY CAN'T DO THAT'. BARBARIAN USE +61 ESCAPE ARTIST AND SHOW YOU."
"Barbarian, no!"
(Chimney explodes)
"Here we go again..."
Actually, this is close. Shorter version is that I'm hiatusing until I'm done with this @#$# google doc.
My thoughts are fragmented throughout my notebook, so I'm trying to edit and pair them together. Until then, I've mostly banned myself from posting on paizo because it just gets me sucked in and then I never do anything. I'll let you know when it's done.
So, where has Trinam been?I'm assuming he got hit with some sort of experimental ray that made AM BARBARIAN enter the real world, and now the two are in a road movie/buddy comedy on a quest to save Christmas.
"WHAT YOU MEAN, NO CAN SQUEEZE DOWN CHIMNEY RIDING BATTY BAT? NO HAVE PROOF, ONLY SAY 'BARBARIAN TOTALLY CAN'T DO THAT'. BARBARIAN USE +61 ESCAPE ARTIST AND SHOW YOU."
"Barbarian, no!"
(Chimney explodes)
"Here we go again..."
Actually, this is close. Shorter version is that I'm hiatusing until I'm done with this @#$# google doc.
My thoughts are fragmented throughout my notebook, so I'm trying to edit and pair them together. Until then, I've mostly banned myself from posting on paizo because it just gets me sucked in and then I never do anything. I'll let you know when it's done.
...a magical, non-sundering response. Something tells me I should be worried.
...a magical, non-sundering response. Something tells me I should be worried.
Actually, this is close. Shorter version is that I'm hiatusing until I'm done with this @#$# google doc.My thoughts are fragmented throughout my notebook, so I'm trying to edit and pair them together. Until then, I've mostly banned myself from posting on paizo because it just gets me sucked in and then I never do anything. I'll let you know when it's done.
What, no. You just can't properly sunder through text.
Well, either the orbs will go off when you let go of them, or you're tossing ammunition to the other side. You're trying to have it both ways with putting them in a container. I can see an argument for it working either way (go off when you let go vs. being able to put them in the container), but not changing the mechanic mid-throw. And if BATTY BAT is going to throw them, he's got to take a standard action to do so. So no RAGELANCEPOUNCE no matter what if you use necklace missiles. AM may not really like that tactic. Also, max range on an improvised weapon is 50 feet (five 10-foot range increments). No way around that in RAW. So either throw one, or toss me some ammo, or blow up the first one in the container.
I reread the magic item, and there's no time limit on throwing them.
Also note, they only blow up if you throw them. Placing them somewhere else does nothing.
So, perfectly good to detach them all, put them in a porcelain container, and chuck them all at something as one. Weee, 6k better-then-a-meteor-swarm.
Far Shot doubles all range increments, and I'm sure Batty Bat has feats to spare.
Pretty sure you can also throw something as part of a charge movement, you just can't attack at the end of the move.
You're trying to argue it's not viable, when it is :)
==Aelryinth
Far shot doesn't double range increments.
Batty Bat doesn't have feats to spare, especially if he's not the synthesist -- the original 6hd bat has 3 feats of which two are picked for him already, and if he is to have any chance of avoiding power word kill and the like he needs toughness.
I'm not saying it isn't a possible strategy... but it isn't a very good one.
woops, it just reduces range penalties now. That's good..far shotting archers had just tons of range.
The synthesist had tons of feats to spare. He was barely statted out for anything but his bat. And the bat is Awakened, at the very least.
Wonder if batty bat has hands and could use the pot with a staff sling...
==+Aelryinth
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I reread the magic item, and there's no time limit on throwing them.
Also note, they only blow up if you throw them. Placing them somewhere else does nothing.
So, perfectly good to detach them all, put them in a porcelain container, and chuck them all at something as one. Weee, 6k better-then-a-meteor-swarm.
Far Shot doubles all range increments, and I'm sure Batty Bat has feats to spare.
Pretty sure you can also throw something as part of a charge movement, you just can't attack at the end of the move.
You're trying to argue it's not viable, when it is :)
==Aelryinth
Aelryinth, you've argued that contingency doesn't work a certain way because the rules don't say it does. Then you turn around and argue that a necklace of fireballs works a certain way because the rules don't say it doesn't. This is inconsistant. You're changing your stance on the rules based on your side of the argument.
EDIT: One could argue that you're throwing the container, not the orbs...so they won't go off at all, right? And that doesn't make any sense. Or are you saying that the orbs can sense where and when you want them to go off? Maybe they have a contingency on them?
The missiles state they go off when you throw them.
I'm throwing them inside a container so I can toss more then one at a time.
What is inconsistent about that? You're the one trying to be inconsistent by claiming they'll blow up after I put them in a pot, which is nowhere in the item description. Nor does it say there is a time limit, which you're also trying to infer.
trying to argue that you're not throwing something inside a container that is thrown is sheer sophistry. Quit trying to mangle the english language. "I'm throwing this box of dynamite ready to go off, but I'm not throwing dynamite!" is not an argument.
===Aelryinth