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Liberty's Edge

Trinam wrote:


I am yet to see a response to the claim that mind blank doesn't protect magic items you have other than 'it just does because it does.' It doesn't mention it does in RAW, and Nondetection certainly does. I have not brought this back up when I likely should have, as it is a very simple way to find invisible, mind blanked casters. (It also makes fluff sense; items don't have a kind that can be blanked)

He sees your stuff and notes there's not a thing there? Splat. Issue resolved.

Magic aura does a pretty good job, if you select the 'hide aura' option when casting it. And that's been posted before in this thread.

We have yet to see a response from you demonstrating how AM will A)identify casters as such, without using metagame knowledge and B) spot a mind-blanked caster from beyond 120 feet, which is well within the range at wich a caster will spot AM.


If you want the bare bones basics of the feat and rage power progression, and all that, I can provide that. The question becomes what exactly are you trying to get because it sounds like you want something fully geared and able to beat everything that exists.


Give me the bare bones -- equipment can be worked out from there -- bare bones gives us a place to start with verification.

About Mind Blank and Arcane Sight:

Arcane Sight relies on line of sight -- the items the mage has are invisible so you can't see them so you don't get the auras off of them.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Give me the bare bones -- equipment can be worked out from there -- bare bones gives us a place to start with verification.

About Mind Blank and Arcane Sight:

Arcane Sight relies on line of sight -- the items the mage has are invisible so you can't see them so you don't get the auras off of them.

Ok, that I can do. I will set up a google doc when I get home for what exactly I have, as well as current thoughts I have.

You have my apologies, I was under the impression you were requesting something that I didn't have based on an assumption that would be impossible for any character.

In hindsight, getting everyone's thoughts is better than just one guy's anyways. Probably should have done that sooner.

Liberty's Edge

I just thought of a perfect, unbeatable AM-killing strategy. Make n+1 level 7 paladin simulacra, each with 500gp worth of gear, where n = however many actions AM is likely to get before he's beaten down by repeated no-save spells, and have them all memorize paladin's sacrifice. Then they just crowd around the caster and blast off as many as necessary to keep the caster alive (he is, of course, a high holy member of their church). The can also memorize knight's calling, and spam it at AM; eventually, he'll fail a save. After all, the caster can make up to 220 of these guys.
...that's not even counting the cohort, or the caster himself.


Trinam wrote:

Ok, that I can do. I will set up a google doc when I get home for what exactly I have, as well as current thoughts I have.

You have my apologies, I was under the impression you were requesting something that I didn't have based on an assumption that would be impossible for any character.

In hindsight, getting everyone's thoughts is better than just one guy's anyways. Probably should have done that sooner.

I can send him what I imputted into HeroLab, just say the word.


JMD031 wrote:
I can send him what I imputted into HeroLab, just say the word.

Naah, it'd be better for the process if I google doc all my thoughts and let everyone see. After all, a google doc is way better for rambling, and I love to ramble. Also I can format it to kinda match the eldritch notebook, which at this point has like a million notes/scribbles/theories in it.

EDIT: Which makes it sound like I'm a wizard and AM is my spellbook. Is that irony?


Trinam wrote:

Naah, it'd be better for the process if I google doc all my thoughts and let everyone see. After all, a google doc is way better for rambling, and I love to ramble. Also I can format it to kinda match the eldritch notebook, which at this point has like a million notes/scribbles/theories in it.

EDIT: Which makes it sound like I'm a wizard and AM is my spellbook. Is that irony?

Only to Alannis Morrisette.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I had to pull my oven out today because the cat keeps hopping on top of the burners, which means there's vermin in there. When I got it back far enough, the cat charged between my legs and flew into the corner after something.

Now I was staring down into that corner, looking for signs of life and not seeing any. But when the cat backed off there was a mouse. A dead mouse that had been alive a moment ago. That I hadn't even noticed because it blended in so well. That probably didn't know what hit it until it got the filthy gates of mouse heaven.

All I could say was, "Damn. Rage Lance Pounce."


joeyfixit wrote:

I had to pull my oven out today because the cat keeps hopping on top of the burners, which means there's vermin in there. When I got it back far enough, the cat charged between my legs and flew into the corner after something.

Now I was staring down into that corner, looking for signs of life and not seeing any. But when the cat backed off there was a mouse. A dead mouse that had been alive a moment ago. That I hadn't even noticed because it blended in so well. That probably didn't know what hit it until it got the filthy gates of mouse heaven.

All I could say was, "Damn. Rage Lance Pounce."

SOUND MORE LIKE SNEAKCLAWPOUNCE TO ME.


Try this one out.

Mister E regroups and comes up with a new plan. It's exactly the same on the surface. The gang is out in the woods again singing the merry praises of the unkillable Mister E. Will AM swoop in to kill again?

If he does, he finds out that under the surface, things are different. This time the doppelganger simulacra has an implanted bomb, which goes off when he is destroyed. For 10d6+13. This destroys all of the simulacra adjacent to him, which are level 1 alchemists with 11HP who have been ordered to deliberately muck their reflex saves. Heck, I'll make them genuine wizards cloned from Menolo the Arrogant Wizard's remains to add some juicy casty sauce on this BARBARIAN bait.

So they're dead, and the bombs implanted in them go off. So are all the level 1 alchemists adjacent to them. And so on. A total of 33 bombs, all of Mister E's dailies, have been implanted in the crowd. Beyond that the original 10th level alchemists have graciously donated theirs (they also assisted in the mammoth surgical task) to round out the crowd of 40 with an additional 7 bombs.

So that's approximately 330d6+429 for Mister E's bombs in the general vicinity. I'd have to build a map to look at the logistics of this, but I'm thinking that at least 9 of these bombs are pretty much going off in AMB's face and he's going to have to reflex save for, what, 20 more? This also fills up much of whatever path he's zipping out of there on his Batmobile.

Whoops, did I mention that all of Mister E's bombs are Poison Bombs? So there's 33 Cloudkills going off at the same time, too. Each of them has a 20' radius, so assuming multiple Cloudkills stack (admittedly a big assumption; I have no idea what the rule is on this), that's something like 30 Con damage, minimum? And that's if he makes all his saves (which is doubtful, since Con damage also translates into poorer Fortitude saves).

CLONEBOMBNOVA

Budget: 4000 gold for 40 1 HD simulacra wizards.
1000 for the new doppelganger simulacrum.
400 for outfits for all of them.
2000x33=66K for all the chemical reagents required to make all of Mister E's implanted bombs indefinite beyond 24 hours.
1560 for a 2 7th level wizard sims whose job it is to continually cast communal nondetection on everybody so that the bombs inside these guys can't be spotted. These wizards aren't allowed to wear any magical gear.

So that's 71,960 total. Make it 73K even to feed everybody and give sundries while they wait for AM BARBARIAN. All of this is going in Mister E's expense report for the Wizard Guild that hired him.

The original 40 10th level sims patrol the woods in groups of four, dressed as commoners, and keep at least 2 nondetection extracts in their dailies so that they don't set off any alarms for AM BARBARIAN. Each group is specialized in their extracts/mutagens- a sneak, a healer, a tank, and a controller (all of them are bomb-wielding strikers). Their job - keep the random encounters and monsters off of Mister E's wizard party. And each healer is also equipped with CHA mutagen and eagle's splendor, and a scroll of message in their gear so that they can email Mister E if they see a BARBARIAN roaming the quiet countryside.


In the aftermath, it's the job of the 40 10th level sims to go into Ground Zero and see if any of Mister E's pricy magical gear survived. And also to post signs saying "Danger - Fallout Zone" for about twenty miles or so around. And to make sure nobody ever tries this again, or pretty soon Pathfinder will look more like Mad Max.


You guys have my apologies. I came home to an insane wife, who has decided to occupy all of my time with inane demands and complaining. I will try to get this copying done in the 2 hrs I have before work tomorrow, I haven't gotten much down yet.


Trinam wrote:
You guys have my apologies. I came home to an insane wife, who has decided to occupy all of my time with inane demands and complaining. I will try to get this copying done in the 2 hrs I have before work tomorrow, I haven't gotten much down yet.

You're the last person on this thread that owes anybody an apology, man. Seriously.


Take your time Trinam. Angry wife is a valid excuse.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
You're the last person on this thread that owes anybody an apology, man. Seriously.

+1.

We're talking about a theoretical build for a theoretical character for a theoretical simulation in a game. Take a week if you need to. Hell, take four.


I am still curious about the build.


AM MISSED 6 PAGES..... AM CONFUSED


joeyfixit wrote:

+1.

We're talking about a theoretical build for a theoretical character for a theoretical simulation in a game. Take a week if you need to. Hell, take four.

just as long as it gets up sometime. i wanna see how it works


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Nobody has 2 cents about CLONEBOMBNOVA?


joeyfixit wrote:
Nobody has 2 cents about CLONEBOMBNOVA?

.

OUCH


AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.


AM BARD wrote:
AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.

Happy Colored Marbles.


joeyfixit wrote:
Nobody has 2 cents about CLONEBOMBNOVA?

AM CAVALIER am saddened by this. The idea that a psuedo-casty like you can out do the other AMs by RAW am depressing.


AM BARD wrote:
AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.

TALL AM TAN AM YOUNG AM LOVELY,

THE CASTY FROM IPANEMA GOES WALKING,
AND WHEN AM PASSES,
EACH ONE HE PASSES GOES,
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
AM BARD wrote:
AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.

TALL AM TAN AM YOUNG AM LOVELY,

THE CASTY FROM IPANEMA GOES WALKING,
AND WHEN AM PASSES,
EACH ONE HE PASSES GOES,
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

(sigh)

This is like Empire Yoda vs. Prequel Yoda.

I think Tri has to get AM COPYRIGHT LAWYER to shut down the overusaqe and devaluation of his trademark grammar style.


I'd offer my services in this respect, but I think I'd have to technically sue myself.

Grand Lodge

Trinam wrote:


I know how I would build him to run as a GM, and I have a good idea about how I would build him as a PC.

What you are asking, however, is for a PvP build to be made, and have it be...

I just took this to be a crucible where as a community we take the raw ore that was AM BARBARIAN's conception and forge it into a juggernaut that is the bane of all casters' existence by lobbing tactic after tactic at it and watching the build learn and adapt ^_^

And for my two-cents on Mind Blank + Invisible: invisible just gives a flat +20 bonus to Stealth... so you can still be spotted, even if you are flying on a cloudless day you can still be spotted, mundanely. And I've only known a few casters to ACTUALLY put ranks in stealth, instead saying "why do I need stealth when I can cast Invisibility!"


AM SYNTHESIST, AM HAS AM COHORT TOO. COHORT ANOTHER BIGGER SYNTHESIST WHO'S COHORT IS ANOTHER BIGGER SYNTHESIST, WE CALL IT AM STEVE.

AMS LIKE TO DO SOMETHING WE CALL TRIPLELANCEPOUNCE, AM STEVE HUGE WINGED CENTAUR SO HE CAN LANCEPOUNCE TOO.

AM SYNTHESIST, AM LEGION

Liberty's Edge

Okay, here's my plan. 20th-level diviner, with an 18th-level cleric cohort. We're both lawful good. I've got 20 7th-level paladin simulacra, each with 500gp worth of gear, and 20 9th-level elven wizard simulacra, each with 500gp worth of gear. Total cost for them is 180k, right? All 40 of them, as well as my cohort and I, have Lookout as a feat, so we all get to take a full action in the surprise round. The wizards also have Allied Spellcaster, Piercing Spell, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration, and and the paladins have Target of Opportunity. The paladins all have paladin's sacrifice memorized twice, and the wizards all have true strike, invisibility, fly, and a Piercing enervation memorized twice, as well. Yes, they can all memorize other stuff, but that's more work than I think I need to put into this.

The wizards all cast true strike in the surprise round, and the paladins all...do something useful.
In the first round of combat, the wizards all ready enervation and cast it at AM when he comes in range. That's 20 ranged touch attacks, all at about +26. Let's say 15 of them hit. AM will lose, on average, 37 levels. He's dead. But wait! His ring of spell storing will block about two of those. So he only loses 32 levels. He's still dead. But what about AM's spell resistance? Well, my wizards have a +19 to overcome spell resistance, and the piercing enervation has a -5 penalty to AM spell resistance. So MAYBE one of the spells fails to get through, because one of them is bound to roll a 1. AM loses 30 levels. He's still still dead.
My paladins all Smite him, and do...more useful stuff.
My cohort readies dictum, and since he's got an orange prism Ioun stone, and used a candle of invocation this morning, AM and BATTY BAT are both paralyzed for one round with no save. My paladins finally get to do something! Group hug (and by 'hug' I mean 'everybody hits AM or BATTY BAT')!

I...don't even need to cast a spell. Well, not during combat, anyway.

NB: I can do this at 13th level, with only a couple fewer wizards, or 7th-level wizards and paladins without gear. Yeah, my cohort won't get to cast dictum, but that was really just the icing on the cake of enervation-death.

EDITED for cohort correction.


AM SYNTHESIST wrote:

AM SYNTHESIST, AM HAS AM COHORT TOO. COHORT ANOTHER BIGGER SYNTHESIST WHO'S COHORT IS ANOTHER BIGGER SYNTHESIST, WE CALL IT AM STEVE.

AMS LIKE TO DO SOMETHING WE CALL TRIPLELANCEPOUNCE, AM STEVE HUGE WINGED CENTAUR SO HE CAN LANCEPOUNCE TOO.

AM SYNTHESIST, AM LEGION

A cohort can have a cohort? I smell super cheese. Why doesn't the cohort max out charisma, and get like double cohort?

I love that the solution to rage lance pounce is rage lance pounce, btw.


Trinam, did you get a chance to host the Google doc?


DeathSpot wrote:

Okay, here's my plan. 20th-level diviner, with an 18th-level cleric cohort. We're both lawful good. I've got 20 7th-level paladin simulacra, each with 500gp worth of gear, and 20 9th-level elven wizard simulacra, each with 500gp worth of gear. Total cost for them is 180k, right? All 40 of them, as well as my cohort and I, have Lookout as a feat, so we all get to take a full action in the surprise round. The wizards also have Allied Spellcaster, Piercing Spell, Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration, and and the paladins have Target of Opportunity. The paladins all have paladin's sacrifice memorized twice, and the wizards all have true strike, invisibility, fly, and a Piercing enervation memorized twice, as well. Yes, they can all memorize other stuff, but that's more work than I think I need to put into this.

The wizards all cast true strike in the surprise round, and the paladins all...do something useful.
In the first round of combat, the wizards all ready enervation and cast it at AM when he comes in range. That's 20 ranged touch attacks, all at about +26. Let's say 15 of them hit. AM will lose, on average, 37 levels. He's dead. But wait! His ring of spell storing will block about two of those. So he only loses 32 levels. He's still dead. But what about AM's spell resistance? Well, my wizards have a +19 to overcome spell resistance, and the piercing enervation has a -5 penalty to AM spell resistance. So MAYBE one of the spells fails to get through, because one of them is bound to roll a 1. AM loses 30 levels. He's still still dead.
My paladins all Smite him, and do...more useful stuff.
My cohort readies dictum, and since he's got an orange prism Ioun stone, and used a candle of invocation this morning, AM and BATTY BAT are both paralyzed for one round with no save. My paladins finally get to do something! Group hug (and by 'hug' I mean 'everybody hits AM or BATTY BAT')!

I...don't even need to cast a spell....

40 simulacra. What an inventive strategy.

My problem with this is that creating a small army of clones for the purpose of assassination is an eeevil strategy. No matter how CE you think AM is, going against him with so powerful a force is simply unfair. And unfair fights are for evil characters. Cleric is going to lose his powers and the paladins would refuse to participate. If ordered to, they'll quickly become ex-paladins.
At the end of the surprise round, you diviner is dead and AM already swooped something like 400' away, yes? So your fallen cleric, your True Striking wizards, and your fallen paladins are all standing around surprised, taking orders from a splat.

That's assuming your diviner has magical gear and sims don't. You said 500gp worth of material for each, but you didn't say what it was. If AM sees a whole Oort cloud of shiny magical items, he might smell a trap and spring it some other way.

Heck, assuming he was true rezzed or somehow survived CloneBombNuke, who's to say he hasn't hired an alchemist to provide him with a few disposable BARBARIANS for springing obvious traps like "wizard surrounded by 20 paladins and 20 other people"?


I am so very confused.

I am new to Pathfinder, and all this has me completely confused.

BATTY BAT?
RAGELANCEPOUNCE?
AM Barbarian?

Where did this start originally?

What does all of this even mean? I can't follow any of this.

Someone please help a newb out?

-Von


VonZrucker wrote:

I am so very confused.

I am new to Pathfinder, and all this has me completely confused.

BATTY BAT?
RAGELANCEPOUNCE?
AM Barbarian?

Where did this start originally?

What does all of this even mean? I can't follow any of this.

Someone please help a newb out?

-Von

Read the thread, dude.


joeyfixit wrote:
AM BARD wrote:
AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.
Happy Colored Marbles.

Most people are not ok, but they're taking their siestas in the sun...

Liberty's Edge

joeyfixit wrote:

40 simulacra. What an inventive strategy.

My problem with this is that creating a small army of clones for the purpose of assassination is an eeevil strategy. No matter how CE you think AM is, going against him with so powerful a force is simply unfair. And unfair fights are for evil characters. Cleric is going to lose his powers and the paladins would refuse to participate. If ordered to, they'll quickly become ex-paladins.
At the end of the surprise round, you diviner is dead and AM already swooped something like 400' away, yes? So your fallen cleric, your True Striking wizards, and your fallen paladins are all standing around surprised, taking orders from a splat.

That's assuming your diviner has magical gear and sims don't. You said 500gp worth of material for each, but you didn't say what it was. If AM sees a whole Oort cloud of shiny magical items, he might smell a trap and spring it some other way.

Heck, assuming he was true rezzed or somehow survived CloneBombNuke, who's to say he hasn't hired an alchemist to provide him with a few disposable BARBARIANS for springing obvious traps like "wizard surrounded by 20 paladins and 20 other people"?

Okay, a few points about your statements:

1. AM is the evil one, not me. He's the one wandering around RAGELANCEPOUNCING wizards without warning. Getting a posse together to put a stop to it is no different than doing so to stop a rampaging dragon. So no alignment issues there. Also, none of my simulacra will do anything to start a fight; they're all only going to act if AM tries to RAGELANCEPOUNCE me. Assassination isn't my tactic, it's AM's.
2. I'm a diviner, so I always get to act on the surprise round. Because of Lookout, my simulacra get to do the same thing, as does my cohort. Admittedly, they're going on an initiative count of somewhere between 36 and 39, but they're all still getting to act on the surprise round. AM isn't going to act any faster than that.
3. AM can't move far enough on the surprise round to hit me if he starts the fight outside my perception range. I've got 20 ranks, and a +20 item, and roughly a +9 from ability and feats. So the lowest I can roll is a 50, and AM is large. That's what, a 550-foot distance he has to be from me at the start of the surprise round for me to have ANY chance of not seeing him. If by some odd chance he gets close enough for an attack on me, I've got 20 paladins ready to cast paladin's sacrifice to negate it. So I won't get hurt any sooner than the 9th round of combat with AM, if EVERYTHING goes his way. And it won't.
4. None of my simulacra have any magical gear. Heck, I don't even need to give them anything more than a robe and a pointy hat and a dagger. The 500gp worth of stuff is just so I don't have to do difficult multiplication.
5. What other method of springing my trap does AM have? I'd thought we were staying away from followers, which my simulacra are not. And how would he get the putative disposable barbarians to keep up with him?
6. Finally, why does a strategy have to be inventive to work?


hey, if the plan is CE, just use antipaladins. They get the same spell list , right?


licidy wrote:
And for my two-cents on Mind Blank + Invisible: invisible just gives a flat +20 bonus to Stealth... so you can still be spotted, even if you are flying on a cloudless day you can still be spotted, mundanely. And I've only known a few casters to ACTUALLY put ranks in stealth, instead saying "why do I need stealth when I can cast Invisibility!"

Reread the stealth and perception rules. Nothing states that noticing something in a square lets you see it, and that's the best that can be done with invisibility up.

Don't forget distance modifiers that are going to hurt AM's ability to see me.

He cannot stealth while flying like he is, the wizard however can due to the invisibility. AM doesn't have a means to mind blank himself so he'll show up on see invisibility (or true seeing if the wizard has the means to keep it up long enough each day). This means he is standing out like anything else would be while flying through the sky -- Base DC of 0 + distance/weather/conditions modifiers.

The wizard has a base DC of Stealth Modifier + 20 (invisibility) + the same distance/weather/conditions modifiers. Even without ranks he's going to have an easier time seeing AM than AM is going to have in seeing the wizard. This is assuming no other gear towards stealth is spent.

Now IF AM does get a ring of invisibility that will help him out to the range of see invisibility or true seeing (again if the mage has the means to keep it up continuously), however after they are closer than that range he has no means of hiding -- unless he manages to find the means to block out the wizards other divination magics.

The wizard has the upper hand on this end because all his divination and protections from such are things he can cast himself each day saving himself money from having to have items to do it for him.

AM doesn't have spells and therefore needs to either find items, feats, or rage powers to be able to detect the wizard and hide from the wizard.

***********************************

To put it another way it's almost like submarine warfare where AM is a diesel U-boat and the caster can be a modern super stealth nuclear submarine. AM is at a disadvantage, he needs to find a means of getting rid of that disadvantage.

Liberty's Edge

While I can certainly agree with the sentiment that my caster is akin to a modern super stealth nuclear submarine, not even I would stoop to calling AM a pigboat. :D

...although 'foul living quarters and unusual hull shape' may fit, if AM never lands...


DeathSpot wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:

40 simulacra. What an inventive strategy.

My problem with this is that creating a small army of clones for the purpose of assassination is an eeevil strategy. No matter how CE you think AM is, going against him with so powerful a force is simply unfair. And unfair fights are for evil characters. Cleric is going to lose his powers and the paladins would refuse to participate. If ordered to, they'll quickly become ex-paladins.
At the end of the surprise round, you diviner is dead and AM already swooped something like 400' away, yes? So your fallen cleric, your True Striking wizards, and your fallen paladins are all standing around surprised, taking orders from a splat.

That's assuming your diviner has magical gear and sims don't. You said 500gp worth of material for each, but you didn't say what it was. If AM sees a whole Oort cloud of shiny magical items, he might smell a trap and spring it some other way.

Heck, assuming he was true rezzed or somehow survived CloneBombNuke, who's to say he hasn't hired an alchemist to provide him with a few disposable BARBARIANS for springing obvious traps like "wizard surrounded by 20 paladins and 20 other people"?

Okay, a few points about your statements:

1. AM is the evil one, not me. He's the one wandering around RAGELANCEPOUNCING wizards without warning. Getting a posse together to put a stop to it is no different than doing so to stop a rampaging dragon. So no alignment issues there. Also, none of my simulacra will do anything to start a fight; they're all only going to act if AM tries to RAGELANCEPOUNCE me. Assassination isn't my tactic, it's AM's.
2. I'm a diviner, so I always get to act on the surprise round. Because of Lookout, my simulacra get to do the same thing, as does my cohort. Admittedly, they're going on an initiative count of somewhere between 36 and 39, but they're all still getting to act on the surprise round. AM isn't going to act any faster than that.
3. AM can't move far enough on the surprise...

Right, but he's got ride-by-attack, which means he can run and do a pounce (a form of charge), and if half his speed is 200+, his run speed is something like 800+? Which means he can be 400ish away from you at the end of the surprise round. In which the wizards cast true strike. (but didn't attack)

Okay, so if ALL the paladins cast Paladin's sacrifice on you, doesn't that mean that he destroyed ALL of them? And now he's at a fairly safe distance away from you. I guess you survived the surprise round, which is a victory.

Regarding dueling perception checks - I believe that argument's been done to death; I'll let Tri argue about that one.

Lookout+Diviner= Good Job. I guess they do all get to act in the surprise round. That being the case, I think you can do better than demolishing 40 Paladins (or anti-paladins). Have your posse cast a bunch of save-or-dies at him, maybe; scarab and spell turning can't take ALL of them. And he's not likely to save for all that get through. And if your body is destroyed, use the clone spell to have a backup ready (not at all OOC for a 20th level wizard, btw). Heck, you don't even need it; max out your initiative (add Improved Init to your substantial Diviner Init bonus) and Dim Door or teleport out of there. And have a Clone for when he sunders that spell; that's one less save-or-die that he can depower, yeah? (assuming he can only be under the effect of one rage in that surprise round).

How would he get putative Barbarians? Hire an alchemist without scruples.

Gee, where's he gonna find one of them? :-|

Liberty's Edge

Ride-by attack doesn't allow him to move more than his speed in the surprise round. He's still farther away than he can charge when I spot him. Also, there's no need for my 20 paladins to all cast paladin's sacrifice, as AM can't get more than, at most, five attacks in a round. They're smart enough to only do so if the higher-numbered ones have already done so in the round in question. So he's not going to do worse than, maybe, take out five of my simulacra. In which case I guess he could start affecting me on the seventh, or maybe, if he gets lucky, the fifth round of combat. He's never going to live that long. I've got 22 dedicated casters and anywhere up to 20 paladins to take him out.


DeathSpot wrote:

While I can certainly agree with the sentiment that my caster is akin to a modern super stealth nuclear submarine, not even I would stoop to calling AM a pigboat. :D

...although 'foul living quarters and unusual hull shape' may fit, if AM never lands...

Hey now, while U-boats have their problems for their time they were well made and a very dangerous boat. While I might not like what they were used for I'm not going to pretend that they weren't a well-built tool of war. My only purpose in the comparison was to point out the gap between what the wizard has at his disposal and what AM has at his.


DeathSpot wrote:

Ride-by attack doesn't allow him to move more than his speed in the surprise round. He's still farther away than he can charge when I spot him. Also, there's no need for my 20 paladins to all cast paladin's sacrifice, as AM can't get more than, at most, five attacks in a round. They're smart enough to only do so if the higher-numbered ones have already done so in the round in question. So he's not going to do worse than, maybe, take out five of my simulacra. In which case I guess he could start affecting me on the seventh, or maybe, if he gets lucky, the fifth round of combat. He's never going to live that long. I've got 22 dedicated casters and anywhere up to 20 paladins to take him out.

Just going by what you said, dude. Of course, now Schrodinger's wizard is adapting inside his box...

If only 5 need it, why do they all have it memorized twice?

Liberty's Edge

joeyfixit wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:

Ride-by attack doesn't allow him to move more than his speed in the surprise round. He's still farther away than he can charge when I spot him. Also, there's no need for my 20 paladins to all cast paladin's sacrifice, as AM can't get more than, at most, five attacks in a round. They're smart enough to only do so if the higher-numbered ones have already done so in the round in question. So he's not going to do worse than, maybe, take out five of my simulacra. In which case I guess he could start affecting me on the seventh, or maybe, if he gets lucky, the fifth round of combat. He's never going to live that long. I've got 22 dedicated casters and anywhere up to 20 paladins to take him out.

Just going by what you said, dude. Of course, now Schrodinger's wizard is adapting inside his box...

If only 5 need it, why do they all have it memorized twice?

No, not Schrodinger's wizard. I've posted before that I have that particular item. And that's the benefit of a wizard; he can change his spells (and that's what simulacrum is) to meet different situations. I have yet to post a build in any case, but that's one thing I'll definitely have.

Why memorize it twice? Because they can.


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VonZrucker wrote:

I am so very confused.

I am new to Pathfinder, and all this has me completely confused.

BATTY BAT?
RAGELANCEPOUNCE?
AM Barbarian?

Where did this start originally?

What does all of this even mean? I can't follow any of this.

Someone please help a newb out?

-Von

I'll help. Several threads ago. Yes, threads, who's telling the story?

Some people decided that full casters, specially wizards, were the most powerfull classes in the game and capable of singlehandedly defeating anything. While the powerful part we can all agree on, the part about being indefeatable hinges on what is called a 'schroedingers caster' wjo always has the right spells for the occasion including several already on. Several posters countered with martial builds and ideas to prove that other classes CAN be pretty powerful too and that casters aren't invincible. The most sucessfful by far is Trinam, who uses the idea of a mounted barbarian using a lance and with barbarian powers to give him good saves (Superstitous) and pouncing (Beast Totem tree). With a fast enough mount and good enough perception, he could find a caster from far enough away the caster can't see him yet, charge in the surprise round and deal a full attack (pounce), each attack dealing x4 damage(mounted lance charge), meaning he can kill almost anything in one round. And he did this using an alias (AM BARBARIAN) that always speaks in all caps with funny grammar. That is the basic of AM BARBARIAN and RAGELANCEPOUNCE. Note the capitals.
BATTY BAT is AMs mount. Originally a horse transfigured into a bat, several casters (casties or casty as AM says) started targeting the mount. So AM BARBARIAN got the Leadership talent and used it to get a Synthesist Summoner as a cohort. The sinthesist now turns into a giant bat with great saves, an enormous fly speed and enough perception to spot a caster from several miles away.
Nowadays the trend has revesed, instead of martial builds trying to defeat Schroedingers caster, it's the caster that are trying to come up with a plan to defeat AM BARBARIAN. That is what this thread is about.
That and creating AM BARBARIAN memes. Between Trinams constant succes in vexing caster defendants, AM BARBARIANs hilarious way of talking and his sheer awesomeness and badassery, many other AM CLASS aliases have been created, all speaking all caps with the same signature grammar (mostly) and most also having an unnatural hate of full-casters. I'm myself am AM INQUISITOR. Several AM BARBARIAN facts have also been invented, like 'AM BARBARIAN can sunder death' and 'sending AM BARBARIAN to another plane just means he will kill theyr casters until they give him the ability to plane shift at will'.
I think this covers all the basics. Also, this is, on both sides, an exercise on bending the rules as far as they can. No builds shown here would be acceptable in actual play.
Hope it helps.


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Point of Order VM Mercenario -- some people are trying to defeat AM. I'm still too busy with my book clue and dates with outsiders to bother so I just offer the old boy some tips on what to watch out for.

Besides I believe we have established that there is actually no way for AM to successfully and regularly actually get to a point where he can see a casty before the casty can see him.

That is one of the biggest problems AM has always had.

Finally we don't actually have AM yet -- he's Shrodinger's Barbarian. A supposedly all powerful character that (much like the wizard) has completely ignored rules (such as the ride by attack rules which limits you to a single move and the ability to hide in midair when he can't do so, using personal only permanency spells on himself without any proof that he can manage the checks), and has yet to actually have his existance proven.


joeyfixit wrote:
My problem with this is that creating a small army of clones for the purpose of assassination is an eeevil strategy. No matter how CE you think AM is, going against him with so powerful a force is simply unfair. And unfair fights are for evil characters.

Disagree. Compelling stories put good characters against a seemingly unbeatable enemy. That doesn't mean that being good means always being against the odds. If good has 50 knights and horribly evil demon is by himself, it doesn't make sense for good to send in 2 knights because that seems fair.

But even ignoring that, "fairness" is decided by the balance of the game. I think that's sort of the whole point of the exercise. According to the game, AM is fair in the sense that any way to create a PC is fair, short of GM fiat. You can make a wizard with a cohort and dozens of simulacra. That is just as fair as AM.


Trinam wrote:

The build itself is still incomplete, all I have are preliminary (and low estimate) numbers.. But that's enough. You are looking at a +31 with reroll at your worst save, which is will. You have a charge radius of 860 feet with ride-by attack, and your mount has a vision range of 730ish ft while speaking common to coordinate.

Leadership mounts are awesome. Anyways, this means anything but a diviner loses first strike, and the diviner can't see you to do anything offensive.

Your RAGELANCEPOUNCE is ~+47/47/42/37/32 for 3d8+150, +168 vs castys.

You can also spell sunder, with strength surge at a +67 total. Your mount has dragon style for charging through hindering terrain.

The specifics are still being worked, but the character was done on 20 pb. I will have a full build sometime before the wizard advocates ever post one.

Has this build been finished or he is still in theory mode? I would love to see it broke down 1-20

Not for game play but to see stuff I have missed


AM BARD wrote:
joeyfixit wrote:
AM BARD wrote:
AM BARD IS TAKING SONG REQUESTS TO PASS THE TIME WHILE TRI IS AWAY.
Happy Colored Marbles.
Most people are not ok, but they're taking their siestas in the sun...

Yay! Although nowhere near as good as this one.

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