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AM BARBARIAN Build


Advice

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Andoran

Aelryinth wrote:

Aye, and +20 Stealth item cancelled out by +20 Percept Item. Invis only good if ruled that Mind Blanks wards off detects, and useless if within blindsense/sight range. the +20 Not Move modifier only works if you're absolutely motionless, i.e. no spellcasting.

So, take 'at least' 60 off that check. And you haven't accomodated for the fact that most wizards are going to max out spellcraft and knowledge skills, and possibly a craft or Alchemy or something, so you don't have 200 skill points, you likely have 40 to spare if you've a 30 Int. And you need Max Percept to see AB at the same time he can see you.

===Aelryinth

Mind blank absolutely wards off detects, especially see invisible. Says so in the spell description. And yes, should I ever decide to wait in a field for AM, I would be completely motionless, because I'd have cast all my buffs before I got there. So no, you can't take off 'at least' 60. Also, AM is welcome to have a +20 perception item, except that he hasn't ever mentioned having one. I certainly agree he can have one, but it doesn't change the fact that the DC to see me from wherever he is is 116.

I'm not at all sure that I can't take 20 on a stealth check to wait for AM out in a field, but let's say I can't. So I'll take 10, and the DC is 106. Oh, and all the items in the world that AM can have won't change the DC; they'll give him a bonus to beating it. And since AM is always at least 100 feet up, he's never going to be in range of blindsense or blindsight to spot me, as well as having a -10 to his perception. He's not invisible. I can definitely see him and BATTY BAT.

Of course I can have 20 ranks in Stealth. It's my character, I can build him however I want. Putting 10 ranks into any knowledge skill gives me a +21 to the check (10+3+8). That's probably enough; if it's not, I'll simply make an item that gives me more bonus. They're cheap. Stealth, Knowledge Arcana, and Spellcraft are always going to get maxed out. Perception, too. I'm a human wizard, I've got skill points to burn. (2+8(Int)+1(human)+1(favored class))x20=240 skill points. Even maxing out those four leaves me with 160 skill points to burn on other stuff.


DeathSpot wrote:
(NOYOUCAN'TGETMORETHANONEITERATIVEATTACKWITHA)POUNCE.

"Full attack" isn't exactly ambiguous.

As a neutral third party, I have to say that your grasp of the rules in general seems shaky at best. It's not really the best foundation for a theory fight.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

DeathSpot wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:

Aye, and +20 Stealth item cancelled out by +20 Percept Item. Invis only good if ruled that Mind Blanks wards off detects, and useless if within blindsense/sight range. the +20 Not Move modifier only works if you're absolutely motionless, i.e. no spellcasting.

So, take 'at least' 60 off that check. And you haven't accomodated for the fact that most wizards are going to max out spellcraft and knowledge skills, and possibly a craft or Alchemy or something, so you don't have 200 skill points, you likely have 40 to spare if you've a 30 Int. And you need Max Percept to see AB at the same time he can see you.

===Aelryinth

Mind blank absolutely wards off detects, especially see invisible. Says so in the spell description. And yes, should I ever decide to wait in a field for AM, I would be completely motionless, because I'd have cast all my buffs before I got there. So no, you can't take off 'at least' 60. Also, AM is welcome to have a +20 perception item, except that he hasn't ever mentioned having one. I certainly agree he can have one, but it doesn't change the fact that the DC to see me from wherever he is is 116.

I'm not at all sure that I can't take 20 on a stealth check to wait for AM out in a field, but let's say I can't. So I'll take 10, and the DC is 106. Oh, and all the items in the world that AM can have won't change the DC; they'll give him a bonus to beating it. And since AM is always at least 100 feet up, he's never going to be in range of blindsense or blindsight to spot me, as well as having a -10 to his perception. He's not invisible. I can definitely see him and BATTY BAT.

Of course I can have 20 ranks in Stealth. It's my character, I can build him however I want. Putting 10 ranks into any knowledge skill gives me a +21 to the check (10+3+8). That's probably enough; if it's not, I'll simply make an item that gives me more bonus. They're cheap. Stealth, Knowledge Arcana, and Spellcraft are always going to get maxed out. Perception,...

I don't even think you can take 10 on a Stealth check, because it's two people contesting rolls. Maybe if you're lying in ambush...but lying in ambush for AM is virtually impossible, because you can't keep up with him.

And no, you won't be in an open field waiting for AM, because that's metagaming to the extreme. You'll be in some area doing whatever is your thing, but with clear lines of visibility to where you and AM happen to be. So you won't be motionless, you MIGHT be invisible (likely not if you're out shopping in a city somewhere unless you want to get run over). He flies by...he's got a chance to see you, you've got a chance to see him. Hilarities may commence.

So, yes, -60 on that check. Any + competence items you spit out to up your Stealth check, he can snap up, too.

Apologies on Mind Blank, I keep forgetting the precision of the Revision to it in Pathfinder.

Blindsense allows him to locate the square you are in and sunder your invisibility. No miss chance to that. Or he could sunder your mind blank...that would suck, too. rest of his charge attack on you.

So, no, not so easy.

==Aelryinth

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Abraham spalding wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Aye, and +20 Stealth item cancelled out by +20 Percept Item. Invis only good if ruled that Mind Blanks wards off detects, and useless if within blindsense/sight range.

First off if Mind Blank doesn't do exactly what it says it does then this is over because the rules aren't being followed.

Secondly Blindsense is next to useless in this situation -- after all you got to be within 40 feet for it to even kick in and even then it doesn't get you past the 50% miss rate.

Finally as I pointed out much earlier in the thread and as people have constantly repeated AM is swooping in and attacking wizards without them being aware of him (which is a very huge assumption) all the time -- that's his whole tactic.

I find it funny now that the wizards are actually paying attention they can't find him when he's found them while mind blanked (among other things) this entire time.

Smells of GM Fiat to me.

Actually, his shtick has been seeing wizards, starting a charge, and they've been unable to do anything more then run away, except in the case of a couple niche builds.

Besides, he has Antagonize. He can make those wizards come screaming up to him to beat on him with their puny little fists.

And we've found out Barbarians can sunder demiplanes. Good times.

==Aelryinth


RAGELANCEPOUNCE narrated by Randall:

"Oh wow. There's a.....casty. Oh, look; he's buffing. He's buffing himself up. What are you buffing for, casty?
Oh......look. There's AM BARBARIAN and,.....what's he riding? A BATTY BAT! He's riding a BATTY BAT! Oh, this is crazy! He's got his big lance out and everything riding a big ass bat.
AM BARBARIAN don't give a s%$+. AM BARBARIAN is cuh-RAAAA-zy.

OH! WHAT'S AM BARBARIAN DOING? He's biting his shield and drooling all over. OOH! OOH! Now he's swatting his back with a switch! HE'S RAGING! Oh, rage on, AM BARBARIAN. AM BARBARIAN DON'T GIVE A S*!*. He's crazy.

OH NOW HE'S POUNCING WITH HIS LANCE!!!

OH! POOR CASTY! Look what he did to casty. Disgusting!!!

OOOOH! OOOH! NOW HE'S EATING CASTY'S HEAD! DISGUSTING!
AM BARBARIAN IS DISGUSTING!

He don't give a s@@~. AM BARBARIAN is crazy!"


Aelryinth wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Aelryinth wrote:
Aye, and +20 Stealth item cancelled out by +20 Percept Item. Invis only good if ruled that Mind Blanks wards off detects, and useless if within blindsense/sight range.

First off if Mind Blank doesn't do exactly what it says it does then this is over because the rules aren't being followed.

Secondly Blindsense is next to useless in this situation -- after all you got to be within 40 feet for it to even kick in and even then it doesn't get you past the 50% miss rate.

Finally as I pointed out much earlier in the thread and as people have constantly repeated AM is swooping in and attacking wizards without them being aware of him (which is a very huge assumption) all the time -- that's his whole tactic.

I find it funny now that the wizards are actually paying attention they can't find him when he's found them while mind blanked (among other things) this entire time.

Smells of GM Fiat to me.

Actually, his shtick has been seeing wizards, starting a charge, and they've been unable to do anything more then run away, except in the case of a couple niche builds.

Besides, he has Antagonize. He can make those wizards come screaming up to him to beat on him with their puny little fists.

And we've found out Barbarians can sunder demiplanes. Good times.

==Aelryinth

We also found that sending AM BARBARIAN to the abyss just gives him a demonic horde of followers once he defeats the biggest demon around. Sending him anywhere else makes him a small god after he causes so much destruction they give him divinity just so he can go back o his original plane.

Andoran

No, we've found that if you set everything up just right, AM can one-shot a wizard. And a demiplane CANNOT BE DISPELLED, so he can't sunder it. AND we're making a huge number of wildly implausible assumptions about both AM and the wizard.
Waiting in a field for AM is metagaming, and him flying around attacking every caster he sees (without being able to determine whether it is in fact a caster) isn't? That's not quite even-handedness, I think. You're giving AM every possible advantage here; of course GM fiat can kill my caster. But AM can't.

EDIT: fixed formatting errors.

Andoran

I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.


Honestly? Abraham still has the best non-avoidance strategy. i.e. Not being in the field from the start gong "derp herp look at me im like all wizardly n stuff woooololololooooo"

Heck a cleric can get away with looking like a fellow martial all day everyday. And can get the bluff score to convince him that he is.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Trinam wrote:


I do. I'm trying to come up with something more hilarious than a wand of enervation, but I'm yet to.

Boring and Practical might have to win here. :(

you do know that if you deal more than double HP in non-lethal damage, you kill a target. it is a change from 3.5

.........Rules citation on this otherwise its time to make a sapmaster to kill castys with.


"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious."

So it would actually be X+Y-Z, where X is max hit points, Y is the con score, and Z is the amount of lethal damage allready taken at the point when the character took X in lethal damage.

eg: You have 10 h.p and a con of 12.
When you take 10 h.p. in nonlethal damage, it'll take 22 more h.p. worth of nonlethal damage to kill you.


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:

"If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious."

So it would actually be X+Y-Z, where X is max hit points, Y is the con score, and Z is the amount of lethal damage allready taken at the point when the character took X in lethal damage.

eg: You have 10 h.p and a con of 12.
When you take 10 h.p. in nonlethal damage, it'll take 22 more h.p. worth of nonlethal damage to kill you.

Wow missed that.

That means I've died twice in carrion crown now this is not good.


Is there a little kid standing next to you that talks to dead people, Bruce Willis?


Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
Is there a little kid standing next to you that talks to dead people, Bruce Willis?

Yeah and he does my typing for me too......... OH NO


DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.

Now you're just grasping at straws, man.


VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

It's because they're fanboys. Objectivity is completely dead to them.

Casty fanboys, however, are completely objective. Because they don't have souls.


VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

no, he's spot on. a buffed AMB on the hunt (with a powerful cohort) vs an unprepared caster standing alone in an open field who is completely oblivious to an impending attack is ideal for the barbarian, and a worst case scenario for a caster. its even more silly when you realize that a wizard of that level would be more intelligent than most GODS, but still dumb enough to chillax in an open field in the D&D universe without a care in the world. you might as well replace "caster" with "small child" because that is how he is being portrayed.

Andoran

Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. And the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

It's because they're fanboys. Objectivity is completely dead to them.

Casty fanboys, however, are completely objective. Because they don't have souls.

I have a soul. Actually, I have several. I keep them in a safe deposit box in Cleveland. No one would ever think to look for souls there. :)

And I don't claim to be completely objective. I'm human; I make mistakes. But the entire 'AM is so cool he has everything he has his own dimension he's the lord of the Abyss' bit is...less objective than one would hope to see here. As I've said before, AM's entire strategy is based on several ambiguous interpretations of the rules and some rather implausible scenarios, which posit perfect preparedness on his part and none on the part of the wizard. GM fiat can kill anyone; all AM does is provide one method for that to happen.


DeathSpot wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. And the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

It's because they're fanboys. Objectivity is completely dead to them.

Casty fanboys, however, are completely objective. Because they don't have souls.

I have a soul. Actually, I have several. I keep them in a safe deposit box in Cleveland. No one would ever think to look for souls there. :)

And I don't claim to be completely objective. I'm human; I make mistakes. But the entire 'AM is so cool he has everything he has his own dimension he's the lord of the Abyss' bit is...less objective than one would hope to see here. As I've said before, AM's entire strategy is based on several ambiguous interpretations of the rules and some rather implausible scenarios, which posit perfect preparedness on his part and none on the part of the wizard. GM fiat can kill anyone; all AM does is provide one method for that to happen.

Ironically, so do a lot of casters.

Andoran

TarkXT wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. And the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

It's because they're fanboys. Objectivity is completely dead to them.

Casty fanboys, however, are completely objective. Because they don't have souls.

I have a soul. Actually, I have several. I keep them in a safe deposit box in Cleveland. No one would ever think to look for souls there. :)

And I don't claim to be completely objective. I'm human; I make mistakes. But the entire 'AM is so cool he has everything he has his own dimension he's the lord of the Abyss' bit is...less objective than one would hope to see here. As I've said before, AM's entire strategy is based on several ambiguous interpretations of the rules and some rather implausible scenarios, which posit perfect preparedness on his part and none on the part of the wizard. GM fiat can kill anyone; all AM does is provide one method for that to happen.

Ironically, so do a lot of casters.

Certainly they do. I don't claim that every possible strategy that's been posted is workable. But that's not the same thing as saying AM is invincible, which is what several posters on this thread seem to be saying. And your statement does nothing to disprove, or even touch on, my contention that AM's base strategy is based on a very one-sided setup.


DeathSpot wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
Spanky the Leprechaun wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. And the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.

It's because they're fanboys. Objectivity is completely dead to them.

Casty fanboys, however, are completely objective. Because they don't have souls.

I have a soul. Actually, I have several. I keep them in a safe deposit box in Cleveland. No one would ever think to look for souls there. :)

And I don't claim to be completely objective. I'm human; I make mistakes. But the entire 'AM is so cool he has everything he has his own dimension he's the lord of the Abyss' bit is...less objective than one would hope to see here. As I've said before, AM's entire strategy is based on several ambiguous interpretations of the rules and some rather implausible scenarios, which posit perfect preparedness on his part and none on the part of the wizard. GM fiat can kill anyone; all AM does is provide one method for that to happen.

Ironically, so do a lot of casters.
Certainly they do. I don't claim that every possible strategy that's been posted is workable. But that's not the same thing as saying AM is invincible, which is what several posters on this thread seem to be saying. And your statement does nothing to disprove, or even touch on, my contention that AM's base strategy is based on a very one-sided setup.

Considering the entire basis of combat at levels 15+ is controlling how the encounter occurs, I don't know of many strategies by any good 15+ level party that can't be boiled down to a 'one sided setup' by someone.


The problem is AM's current strategy for finding casters and hiding from them and always having his ring of spell turning active is... lacking at best. That's not to mention his lack of ability to guarantee he's getting initiative.

Also the above build by Licidy wasn't a specialized build -- I did some specialization on it, but even that wasn't needed. Just about any wizard could have pulled the strategy off provided he had spent a feat on increasing his caster level and had an orange prism ioun stone.

Andoran

Trinam wrote:
Considering the entire basis of combat at levels 15+ is controlling how the encounter occurs, I don't know of many strategies by any good 15+ level party that can't be boiled down to a 'one sided setup' by someone.

Sure, that's how it frequently works in a campaign. I've had a character spend three months and 130,000gp just to ensure I got the jump on a BBEG. Worked, too; I took down a CR 31 creature with a move action. But the putative AM vs. caster duel isn't something that occurs in a campaign (not least because you've said yourself that AM should never be allowed in a campaign), and therefore shouldn't be a one-sided setup.

Please note, I'm not saying one side or the other can't take actions to gain the upper hand; I'm simply saying that common actions by one side or the other shouldn't be discounted just because it makes the outcome easier for the preferred side. Thus, I'm willing to grant that AM has his ring of spell turning active at the start of the fight, despite your stated condition that AM is always flying and the ring will only be up for 6 1/2 hours of the 24-hour day. Conversely, your assumption that the wizard has no defenses up is untenable in the face of extended buffs and 24-hour spells like mind blank.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
funnymouth wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.
no, he's spot on. a buffed AMB on the hunt (with a powerful cohort) vs an unprepared caster standing alone in an open field who is completely oblivious to an impending attack is ideal for the barbarian, and a worst case scenario for a caster. its even more silly when you realize that a wizard of that level would be more intelligent than most GODS, but still dumb enough to chillax in an open field in the D&D universe without a care in the world. you might as well replace "caster" with "small child" because that is how he is being portrayed.

I'd like it known that you are the one who called the castes small children.

The point of AM was a throw off at all the posts by folks who constantly discussed how wizards and other castys re the mutts nutts. It is a tongue in cheek exercise as much as anything else, but it has done it's job admirably. Trinam has managed to create an artificial persona that has people talking about him in person and has a whole bunch of casty supremacists upset. The very arguments they are using about gm fiat and perfect scenarios are the very things they themselves were using when creating the Schrodingers wizard we also hear about on these boards.

Once again, RAW is fine, and weird things can built with it. However, a game exists in the confines of a campaign world, run by q guy known as the GM. Pathfinder wrote rules into the core book that clearly states the GM can change rules or mix things up as they need in order to make a functional game. Those rules are also RAW. AM would not exist in almost all games out there, because she is broken and uses many rules that cause arguments. This is something yo don't want at a table.

In the same way the al mighty wizard of invulnerability and perfection doesn't exist on almost all games for the same reason. Most of their spells rely on gm input, particularly divination spells. Gm's are god at keeping things balanced in their games for the most part.

An exercise in shoe on the other foot, and it worked admirably.

Well done Trinam


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
funnymouth wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:
DeathSpot wrote:
I can certainly understand the fanboy attitude toward AM, because it's a pretty cool build. But if we're going to pit him against a wizard in anything other than a 'GM fiat says AM wins' scenario, you've got to start applying the rules evenly. An the majority of the AM proponents in this thread aren't doing that.
Now you're just grasping at straws, man.
no, he's spot on. a buffed AMB on the hunt (with a powerful cohort) vs an unprepared caster standing alone in an open field who is completely oblivious to an impending attack is ideal for the barbarian, and a worst case scenario for a caster. its even more silly when you realize that a wizard of that level would be more intelligent than most GODS, but still dumb enough to chillax in an open field in the D&D universe without a care in the world. you might as well replace "caster" with "small child" because that is how he is being portrayed.

Actually, this is untrue. Sure the "optimal" setup is a wizard standing in a field picking flowers, but that is not the only one where AM BARBARIAN wins. ANY time he can PERCEIVE a casty AND act before that caster is when he would RAGELANCEPOUNCE them. Of course as someone has pointed out, pounce may not work as originally conceived which is fine because I'm certain there are very few wizards with more than 200 hp which AM can dish out with one attack.

The main thing is, how is this any different than the Schrodinger's Wizard arguments? I've been led to understand that all martial characters are simply standing in fields picking their noses as the "ALL POWERFUL WIZARD" destroys them. So there is that. Anyways, point being, AM BARBARIAN doesn't JUST get the stupid wizards, he gets the one's who are unprepared or unaware of him. After that, he's probably toast because a Wizard's best weapons is time.

Edit: I feel like I was ninja'd....

Osirion RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

DeathSpot wrote:
Trinam wrote:
Considering the entire basis of combat at levels 15+ is controlling how the encounter occurs, I don't know of many strategies by any good 15+ level party that can't be boiled down to a 'one sided setup' by someone.

Sure, that's how it frequently works in a campaign. I've had a character spend three months and 130,000gp just to ensure I got the jump on a BBEG. Worked, too; I took down a CR 31 creature with a move action. But the putative AM vs. caster duel isn't something that occurs in a campaign (not least because you've said yourself that AM should never be allowed in a campaign), and therefore shouldn't be a one-sided setup.

Please note, I'm not saying one side or the other can't take actions to gain the upper hand; I'm simply saying that common actions by one side or the other shouldn't be discounted just because it makes the outcome easier for the preferred side. Thus, I'm willing to grant that AM has his ring of spell turning active at the start of the fight, despite your stated condition that AM is always flying and the ring will only be up for 6 1/2 hours of the 24-hour day. Conversely, your assumption that the wizard has no defenses up is untenable in the face of extended buffs and 24-hour spells like mind blank.

Actually, I think every presumptive wizard discussed has been assumed to have at least the following in effect all the time:

1. Mind blank
2. Overland flight
3. Invisibility (renewed every 3 rds with a ring)
4. Moment of prescience
5. Contingency (though many folks seem to have not the rules for contingency very thoroughly)
6+. Permanency (arcane sight and see invisibility at least, if not several more)

Could be others I'm forgetting as well, but those ones at least, plus many claims on minions brought with open-ended calling spells or long-lasting dominate effects.

Also, the world of AM appears to have been almost wholly depopulated of all casters other than Wizards specializing in Divination. :)

Andoran

Jason Nelson wrote:

Actually, I think every presumptive wizard discussed has been assumed to have at least the following in effect all the time:

1. Mind blank
2. Overland flight
3. Invisibility (renewed every 3 rds with a ring)
4. Moment of prescience
5. Contingency (though many folks seem to have not the rules for contingency very thoroughly)
6+. Permanency (arcane sight and see invisibility at least, if not several more)

Could be others I'm forgetting as well, but those ones at least, plus many claims on minions brought with open-ended calling spells or long-lasting dominate effects.

Also, the world of AM appears to have been almost wholly depopulated of all casters other than Wizards specializing in Divination. :)

Several of the wizard's spells are 24-hour spells, and others have a considerably greater duration than anything AM will be putting up, yes. And AM has never specified how he's even going to see a wizard in the first place, other than 'I'll spot you with blindsense/sight when I get within 40/60/howevermany feet (okay, that's not strictly true; AM is more likely to say 'BATTY BAT SEE CASTY, TELL AM, AM RAGELANCEPOUNCE,' but you get the drift)'. Which doesn't really solve the problem; the caster can see AM long before AM can see the caster. Yes, AM has a stupid-fast move rate...but that doesn't matter in combat. The caster is almost certain to win combat, and if he does, he's going to win, because he's going to get off at least three spells before AM can rage, and if AM can't rage, he's toast.


DeathSpot wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:

Actually, I think every presumptive wizard discussed has been assumed to have at least the following in effect all the time:

1. Mind blank
2. Overland flight
3. Invisibility (renewed every 3 rds with a ring)
4. Moment of prescience
5. Contingency (though many folks seem to have not the rules for contingency very thoroughly)
6+. Permanency (arcane sight and see invisibility at least, if not several more)

Could be others I'm forgetting as well, but those ones at least, plus many claims on minions brought with open-ended calling spells or long-lasting dominate effects.

Also, the world of AM appears to have been almost wholly depopulated of all casters other than Wizards specializing in Divination. :)

Several of the wizard's spells are 24-hour spells, and others have a considerably greater duration than anything AM will be putting up, yes. And AM has never specified how he's even going to see a wizard in the first place, other than 'I'll spot you with blindsense/sight when I get within 40/60/howevermany feet (okay, that's not strictly true; AM is more likely to say 'BATTY BAT SEE CASTY, TELL AM, AM RAGELANCEPOUNCE,' but you get the drift)'. Which doesn't really solve the problem; the caster can see AM long before AM can see the caster. Yes, AM has a stupid-fast move rate...but that doesn't matter in combat. The caster is almost certain to win combat, and if he does, he's going to win, because he's going to get off at least three spells before AM can rage, and if AM can't rage, he's toast.

You keep saying that the caster will see AM first, but every time you try to prove it, it gets debunked. And then you keep saying the same thing. Your fanboyism is starting to look bad.

Half a dozen tactics to stop AM have appeared already, even if they still can't kill him, but that simply isn't one of them.

Andoran

VM mercenario wrote:

You keep saying that the caster will see AM first, but every time you try to prove it, it gets debunked. And then you keep saying the same thing. Your fanboyism is starting to look bad.

Half a dozen tactics to stop AM have appeared already, even if they still can't kill him, but that simply isn't one of them.

How is the caster NOT going to see AM first? AM has never said he's invisible, and he's flying around where there's no cover and little concealment available. The caster, on the other hand, IS invisible. The -1/10 feet rule applies both ways, except that AM is on a large creature, and the caster's not. AM can certainly get bonuses to his perception check, but they're not going to exceed the caster's bonuses by enough to matter (and may not exceed them at all), and the DC to see the caster is MUCH higher. Thus, the caster sees AM first, and can dictate when and how (and even if) the fight will occur.

Grand Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:

The problem is AM's current strategy for finding casters and hiding from them and always having his ring of spell turning active is... lacking at best. That's not to mention his lack of ability to guarantee he's getting initiative.

Also the above build by Licidy wasn't a specialized build -- I did some specialization on it, but even that wasn't needed. Just about any wizard could have pulled the strategy off provided he had spent a feat on increasing his caster level and had an orange prism ioun stone.

Yeah, I was actually surprised that build hadn't come up yet. To be fair though, I changed the tides on AM BARB so that I was chacing him. There's usually only one way to win a game of cat and mouse, and that's NOT to be the mouse!

But lets give that scene the AM BARB advantage and say he's hunting me and my gang of simulacrums. The only change to my build would be switching the 1 oracle level from Time Mystery to Wind Mystery for the same long sight cheese.

Still, to be fair to the fanboys, it is hella expensive to pull it off! ^_^

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
DeathSpot wrote:
VM mercenario wrote:

You keep saying that the caster will see AM first, but every time you try to prove it, it gets debunked. And then you keep saying the same thing. Your fanboyism is starting to look bad.

Half a dozen tactics to stop AM have appeared already, even if they still can't kill him, but that simply isn't one of them.
How is the caster NOT going to see AM first? AM has never said he's invisible, and he's flying around where there's no cover and little concealment available. The caster, on the other hand, IS invisible. The -1/10 feet rule applies both ways, except that AM is on a large creature, and the caster's not. AM can certainly get bonuses to his perception check, but they're not going to exceed the caster's bonuses by enough to matter (and may not exceed them at all), and the DC to see the caster is MUCH higher. Thus, the caster sees AM first, and can dictate when and how (and even if) the fight will occur.

So, wait, it's not fair to suggest that the casty is standing in a field but it is fair to suggest that the casty lived his life invisibly?

Surely the reasonable point is somewhere in between?

I'm thinking the 20th level caster with down time is either in the wilderness seeking out mysterious arcane ingredients or in his chambers in the Castle of Awesome crafting cool stuff, or perhaps with his love interest on their demi-plane of romance.

Meanwhile AM is either cruising on his mount, eating sandwiches with his harem or leading his people on the seasonal (insert environment appropriate creature here) hunt.

So, my guess is that they actually meet when AM is cruising and Wiz-woz is out ingredient hunting.

So... generic buffs definitely up but probably not wrapped in an anti-AM shell. Probably rocking a fairly generic spell-set based upon going-home-if-things-get-crazy-I-can-always-teleport-back-tomorrow.

AM probably isn't constantly triggering items either.

Seem reasonable?

Osirion RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

DeathSpot wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:

Actually, I think every presumptive wizard discussed has been assumed to have at least the following in effect all the time:

1. Mind blank
2. Overland flight
3. Invisibility (renewed every 3 rds with a ring)
4. Moment of prescience
5. Contingency (though many folks seem to have not the rules for contingency very thoroughly)
6+. Permanency (arcane sight and see invisibility at least, if not several more)

Could be others I'm forgetting as well, but those ones at least, plus many claims on minions brought with open-ended calling spells or long-lasting dominate effects.

Also, the world of AM appears to have been almost wholly depopulated of all casters other than Wizards specializing in Divination. :)

Several of the wizard's spells are 24-hour spells, and others have a considerably greater duration than anything AM will be putting up, yes. And AM has never specified how he's even going to see a wizard in the first place, other than 'I'll spot you with blindsense/sight when I get within 40/60/howevermany feet (okay, that's not strictly true; AM is more likely to say 'BATTY BAT SEE CASTY, TELL AM, AM RAGELANCEPOUNCE,' but you get the drift)'. Which doesn't really solve the problem; the caster can see AM long before AM can see the caster. Yes, AM has a stupid-fast move rate...but that doesn't matter in combat. The caster is almost certain to win combat, and if he does, he's going to win, because he's going to get off at least three spells before AM can rage, and if AM can't rage, he's toast.

Actually, I think the latest build involved him having an at-will item of widened invisibility purge with a radius of 200 feet or so, negating all invisibility tricks within that range and pretty much guaranteeing that anything suddenly popping into visibility gets RAGELANCEPOUNCED.

AM just needs that Lastwall regional feat that lets you turn during your charge... :)


It's an investment definitely worth making should we be dealing in items creatable within RAW, rather than items listed within RAW.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

So the debate has changed from AM vs. casters to which poster is the biggest fanboy. That's embarrassing for those of you resorting to that. What investment do you guys have in either side winning again?


drumlord wrote:
So the debate has changed from AM vs. casters to which poster is the biggest fanboy. That's embarrassing for those of you resorting to that. What investment do you guys have in either side winning again?

I've got give bucks and a sandwich riding on this.

Easiest five bucks I've ever made.

Andoran

Jason Nelson wrote:

Actually, I think the latest build involved him having an at-will item of widened invisibility purge with a radius of 200 feet or so, negating all invisibility tricks within that range and pretty much guaranteeing that anything suddenly popping into visibility gets RAGELANCEPOUNCED.

AM just needs that Lastwall regional feat that lets you turn during your charge... :)

The latest build? Here's the critical difference between AM and the caster. In order to counter various spells and tactics, AM has to change his build. That's not possible. The caster simply has to memorize a different set of spells. That's easy. The caster's going to memorize teleport every day regardless of build, so he's always going to be able to dictate whether or not he engages AM.

Further, a widened invisibility purge is still susceptible to disjunction or wall of suppression or a few other spells. AM cannot rely on having ANY spell effects up after the first round of combat. How will the caster dispel while attacking AM as well? Easy; he's got a caster cohort. And that's the real drawback of AM's build. He needs a cohort just to have a chance of engaging the caster, while the caster has a cohort who can do more than be a mount.


So, how close are you to finishing your Barbarian guide?


Delenot wrote:
So, how close are you to finishing your Barbarian guide?

Feats, Rage powers, and items are my focus of the moment.


Trinam wrote:
drumlord wrote:
So the debate has changed from AM vs. casters to which poster is the biggest fanboy. That's embarrassing for those of you resorting to that. What investment do you guys have in either side winning again?

I've got give bucks and a sandwich riding on this.

Easiest five bucks I've ever made.

I made six bucks on Jury Duty two weeks ago. Aint even enough for a f$#&ing Star Wars figure.

What a rip.


DeathSpot wrote:
Jason Nelson wrote:

Actually, I think the latest build involved him having an at-will item of widened invisibility purge with a radius of 200 feet or so, negating all invisibility tricks within that range and pretty much guaranteeing that anything suddenly popping into visibility gets RAGELANCEPOUNCED.

AM just needs that Lastwall regional feat that lets you turn during your charge... :)

The latest build? Here's the critical difference between AM and the caster. In order to counter various spells and tactics, AM has to change his build. That's not possible. The caster simply has to memorize a different set of spells. That's easy. The caster's going to memorize teleport every day regardless of build, so he's always going to be able to dictate whether or not he engages AM.

Further, a widened invisibility purge is still susceptible to disjunction or wall of suppression or a few other spells. AM cannot rely on having ANY spell effects up after the first round of combat. How will the caster dispel while attacking AM as well? Easy; he's got a caster cohort. And that's the real drawback of AM's build. He needs a cohort just to have a chance of engaging the caster, while the caster has a cohort who can do more than be a mount.

Two things:

One is that the only mutable portion of AM is gear, which is where the magic happens for martials. Considering that you castys keep randomly changing your spell load AND equipment to convenience yourselves every time AM hands you your butt, a Schrodinger's Armory of Checkov's Guns seems equal.

Also, it's act four.

Secondly, the mount is merely Beyond the Impossible.

He's just as scary on a different mount. Remember, 21 pages and over 15 hypothetical castys for a 6HD dire bat.


Oterisk wrote:

Step by step guide to killing AM BARBARIAN

1. Be a 20th level Alchemist with the Greater Alchemical Simulacrum, Doppleganger Simulacrum, Explosive Bomb, Tanglefoot bomb and philosopher's stone discoveries. Alternate Energy Type Discoveries are good too.

2. Be minding your own business when AM BARBARIAN mistakes you for a casty and kills you.

3. Thank your lucky stars you were using a Doppleganger Simulacrum at the time, and plot revenge

4. Wait a 1 year or so, you don't want to rush this. Make 12 Philosopher's stones minus expenses garners you around 500,000 gold.

5. Make about 40 10th level copies of yourself using Greater Alchemical Simulacrum. You want to make sure that AM BARBARIAN knows who killed him.

6. Buy or make 40 Eyes of the Eagle, Boots of Speed, and Capes of the Mountebank, Masterwork Crossbows and 120 or so doses of Purple worm poison

7. Scry on the man of questionable heritage and or patronage using your shiny new crystal ball to find out where he is.

8. Use Delayed Consumption to give all your copies True Strike as an Immediate Action. With a duration of 20 days, this should be easy enough.

9. Scry, Pre-Buff and Swarm. (Bomber's eye, Reduce Person, Heroism, Cat's Grace, Mutagen (dex), Maybe Admixture for fun)

10. Surprise round/Movement round: 40 Readied poisoned true strike Tanglefoot Bomb crossbow bolts fire at AM BARBARIAN. Due to no stat block, I am going to assume that 12 hit. This forces a +40 fort save, which shouldn't be impossible for the guy, but needing 2 consecutive saves and not getting his superstition bonus due to the fact that it is mundane makes it rough. Also needs to not roll a 1 in twelve rolls of the d20, or be entangled and unable to charge. If Barbarian gets lucky with rolls or wins initiative, assume 1-5 dead simulacrum.

11. Have Simulacrum out of poison haste-full attack bomb. Repeat as desired. Switch energy type if there is a lack of success. Assume loss of 3 to 5 simulacrum per round.

12. If Barbarian dies,...

Awesome. I like the way you think.

This works on castys, too.


Trinam wrote:

Two things:

One is that the only mutable portion of AM is gear, which is where the magic happens for martials. Considering that you castys keep randomly changing your spell load AND equipment to convenience yourselves every time AM hands you your butt, a Schrodinger's Armory of Checkov's Guns seems equal.

SO basically you are saying, "No fair you are changing your easily and purposefully changeable spells per day! I want change to so I"m going to change my equipment even though I don't have the means to do so!"

Also AM hasn't beaten anything yet -- he doesn't exist, however the wizard tricks that have been provided so far have been fair and generally easily achieved by any wizard.

So much for AM being able to take on any casty. Such it up you are playing in the big boy leagues now, you can't cry foul and demand new rules just because the situation isn't what you thought it was.

Trinam wrote:


Also, it's act four.

Secondly, the mount is merely Beyond the Impossible.

He's just as scary on a different mount. Remember, 21 pages and over 15 hypothetical castys for a 6HD dire bat.

A bat that falls the first time a prismatic spray is brought out -- you really should think about the 6HD bat a bit harder.

People have been nice so far but I am tired of the BS now, quicken fourth level spell (to clean out his spell turning) at batty bat followed by Maximized Energy Drain. Dead Bat.

Also the maximum Con the bat is going to have is 32, which means a maximum HP (with toughness) of 99 using averaged HP. Which means power word kill will take him out too, and other spells will clean him up some too, that binding trick? Even easier on Batty Bat.

IF you use the summoner you're just another BSF that needs a caster to make him work.

You say it's the equipment slowing you down? Fine lets see AM without it -- with the understanding you want some help equipping him.

I'm really enjoying the moving goal posts by the way:

"AM hunts and kills castys! He finds them and swoops in on them! He can take them all!"

"AM's constantly being hunted! He needs separate gear! Castys have to stand in the field and wait for him! We don't have to explain how he actually finds the castys!"

It's a joke, and it's gotten more than old.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Abraham spalding wrote:

I'm really enjoying the moving goal posts by the way:

...
It's a joke, and it's gotten more than old.

Can't this be said about any hypothetical showdown ever on forums?

Edit: Which is to say — I've never seen any dispute about two reasonably well put together high level characters ever resolved.


Of course the goalposts moved. Castys changed the rules, and went from being unaware of his existence to randomly being aware that he existed and actively hated them.

I must, sadly, adapt to the times. I preferred the old days when you guys didn't randomly assume you're acutely aware of AM'S existence.

I mean, every last theory put forth with any merit here is based on foreknowledge and setting contingencies on a guy whom you do not have any way of knowing exists until you're dead.

EDIT: And you castys didn't even take catch off guard. It's so sad, being unproficient.


True point, if this was a "fair" duel to determine the superior class, the wizard would have never got a chance to look at AMS char sheet (so to speak.)

In other words, 90% of these conclusions that have taken more than 2 thousand posts over several threads would never have been reached, let alone the ones that are close to working.


NeverNever wrote:

True point, if this was a "fair" duel to determine the superior class, the wizard would have never got a chance to look at AMS char sheet (so to speak.)

In other words, 90% of these conclusions that have taken more than 2 thousand posts over several threads would never have been reached, let alone the ones that are close to working.

AND THEREFORE, FIRST FIGHT AM ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS.

WAIT, BARBARIAN WIN THAT FIGHT?

OH. WELL THEN. AM NICE KNOWING CASTYS.

Shadow Lodge

Given that AM strikes hard, strikes fast, and doesn't leave casty survivors, other castys shouldn't be aware of him until they're skewered on his lance. Of course, this goes against the golden rules of forum wizards: that they automatically know every last detail about any potential fight they might get into, and that they have instant access to every wizard spell ever published. :P


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Scared, Potter?


Kthulhu wrote:
Given that AM strikes hard, strikes fast, and doesn't leave casty survivors, other castys shouldn't be aware of him until they're skewered on his lance. Of course, this goes against the golden rules of forum wizards: that they automatically know every last detail about any potential fight they might get into, and that they have instant access to every wizard spell ever published. :P

With a wizard of that levels int pushing 30 (easy), is that really unreasonable? That's orders of magnitude more intelligent than super human intelligence. More brains than the gods themselves. I once read an article on how to play a super genius BBEG (who was far less intelligent that a wiz 20 with gear would be), and it boiled down to " assume he knows what is going to happen in advance." I think that's fair.

Speaking of PC knowledge, AMB fans seem to have forgotten that since the proposed barbarian is raging 24/7 he is incapable of making even the most basic intel check to determine who might even BE a caster, much less make complex tactical/ cost benefit decisions. He is effectively an animal with rage on the brain.


funnymouth wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Given that AM strikes hard, strikes fast, and doesn't leave casty survivors, other castys shouldn't be aware of him until they're skewered on his lance. Of course, this goes against the golden rules of forum wizards: that they automatically know every last detail about any potential fight they might get into, and that they have instant access to every wizard spell ever published. :P

With a wizard of that levels int pushing 30 (easy), is that really unreasonable? That's orders of magnitude more intelligent than super human intelligence. More brains than the gods themselves. I once read an article on how to play a super genius BBEG (who was far less intelligent that a wiz 20 with gear would be), and it boiled down to " assume he knows what is going to happen in advance." I think that's fair.

Speaking of PC knowledge, AMB fans seem to have forgotten that since the proposed barbarian is raging 24/7 he is incapable of making even the most basic intel check to determine who might even BE a caster, much less make complex tactical/ cost benefit decisions. He is effectively an animal with rage on the brain.

OH PLEASE. ALL CASTY AM SAYING HERE AM "CASTY TOTALLY KNOWS THING THAT AM UNKNOWABLE BECAUSE 30 INT."

BARBARIAN HAVE SIMILAR LOGIC. BARBARIAN HAVE 44 STRENGTH, AM CLEARLY ABLE TO PUNCH CASTY DESPITE HAVING NEVER MET CASTY ON OTHER SIDE OF EARTH. AN PERFECTLY LOGICAL, BARBARIAN STRONGER THAN GOD.

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