The Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist. An exercise in ridiculousness.


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AdAstraGames wrote:

My only question is this:

Why would this be fun to play?

Only in a players vs. DM kind of game where the DM admits at the start that he will create ridiculous encounters for the sole purpose of achieving TPKs. In that style of game, you take the most overpowered build you can, and stack it with a bunch of other overpowered builds.


That's the kind of game I build Ranger/Bard/Mystic Theurge characters for...named Boa T'Ankorrr!


AdAstraGames wrote:

My only question is this:

Why would this be fun to play?

You've essentially got the Hulk here. Specially if you take the barb route. Why WOULDN'T that be fun too play?

Well honestly it is delaying the dragon style, but with another natural attack and a further +4 too strength it's still extremely strong at every single stage of the build. 2 in alchemist, then 2 in barb, will keep you far stronger than the average fighter in dpr at those levels.

Also mixing iterative and natural attacks is a trap, even with multiattack it often lowers your dpr total, as I found out theory crafting a synthesist, especially since you can easily get up too 6 natural attacks once you've got 3rd level extracts, and 8 once you can add rake/pounce. (Monstrous physique 1, shapeshift into a Chadra, gives 4 claw attacks). Hell if you REALLY wanna be flukey, you could argue that getting 2 vestigial arms would allow you to take the beast totem and have 4 natural attacks without shapeshifting. (yes vestigial arms do not grant extra attacks... but having 2 extra claws do, so it'd depend on how the gm ruled this).

On the other hand a barbarian taking a 2 dip into ragechemist could very well be a even more silly build.


I thought about the vestigial arm / beast totem thing, but it's on too shakey of ground. SKR was quite clear that the intent wasn't to allow for dual greatsword wielding monstrosities. 4 clawed Alchemists are even worse.

Next up, I might explore Alchemists and the bombs. Pretty sure that I've found a way to add 4 times your Int mod to damage. At the very least, they'd be the world's best sniper :-) Won't be as obscene as this though.


Cheapy wrote:

I thought about the vestigial arm / beast totem thing, but it's on too shakey of ground. SKR was quite clear that the intent wasn't to allow for dual greatsword wielding monstrosities. 4 clawed Alchemists are even worse.

Next up, I might explore Alchemists and the bombs. Pretty sure that I've found a way to add 4 times your Int mod to damage. At the very least, they'd be the world's best sniper :-) Won't be as obscene as this though.

Look at the half orc favoured class bonus for alchemists.

Edit:- I also have a theory that a vivsectionist using two weapon fighting, acid/fire flasks, and the sniper goggles (for +2 damage per sneak attack die rolled), since the alchemist still gets too add his int modifier too splash weapon attacks (he doesn't lose that with viv) would actually be stronger if you could find a way to reliably get ranged sneak attacks at lower levels, but haven't tested it.

Second edit:- actually did they remove splash weapons making sneak attack? Maybe a dual hand crossbow wielding viv with vestigal arm for reloading then. Hell maybe even a dip in gunslinger for a dual pistol wielding one.


Hmmmm

I missed the part about always having claws. I do not know much about changelings.

So couldn't this be the same then if you just went pure Barbarian as a changeling? You could still get the pounce at 10th level and you have all that wonderful rage + superstitous + invulnerable rager, etc.

You wouldn't get sneak attack, but there is other benefits.

I guess what I am asking is this build based around multiattacking with claws and bite / pounce / High STR?


Isn't the bite at -5 (just when you do not have you mutagen on).

Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.


Another comparison

How is this much different from a Druid focusing on wild shape? He gets pounce at 6th level and does even more damage. He can buff just as well and can summon some friends!

And he is a full caster.

And he has an animal companion.

Pathfinder is just like 3.5 edition, especially with all the splats out there. This is an interesting build, but no more broken then a half dozen other builds out there.


Kerobelis wrote:

Isn't the bite at -5 (just when you do not have you mutagen on).

Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

I was hoping that someone would actually post the trait. It looks like I already took into consideration that it could be secondary, and it dropped dpr by 2.

A barbarian would work too. I think that mutagen is better than rage, since it will eventually buff all physical abilities and give natural armor.

I have a feeling that the druid would outdo him at mid-low levels. But once the alchemist can get any abilities he wants from beast shape mutagen and then use beast shape extract?

And I really don't know what to make of druidic casting. It seems offensive based.


Cheapy wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Very true, but we have many spare feats. Using multiattack when it is best is an option. Use just natural attacks the rest :-)

Point taken, this build is after all functionally a superior rogue build so following the guidelines for rogues to maximize sneak attack damage is valid.

Core suggestion for this is always K.I.S.S and dealing with the juggling act that is mixing natural attacks with iterative attacks is just to much work for me these days.

Huh, never thought about how this basically *is* a glorified rogue. With extracts.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, that's ironic, isn't it?

Yeah, a dervish dancing alchmist with a 2 level dip in ranger for power attack makes a very nasty character. I doesn't put out quite the damage this build does, but you are looking at solid damage with a crazy high AC(100ish DPR with 37 AC at level 10). The dip in ranger really compliments the alchmist's skill selection, and with the alchmist's int requirements, skills points are not hard to come by. Extracts make for some great out of combat utility that blows away almost anything a rogue can get.

I would take that build over a rogue any day.


wait what, how do you have 37 AC at that level?


Cheapy wrote:
Kerobelis wrote:

Isn't the bite at -5 (just when you do not have you mutagen on).

Huge, sharp tusks bulge from your mouth, and you receive a bite attack (1d4 damage for Medium characters). If used as part of a full attack action, the bite attack is made at your full base attack bonus –5.

I was hoping that someone would actually post the trait. It looks like I already took into consideration that it could be secondary, and it dropped dpr by 2.

A barbarian would work too. I think that mutagen is better than rage, since it will eventually buff all physical abilities and give natural armor.

Have we decided if there are any *drawbacks* to a 2 level dip into armored hulk instead of fighter?

Rage + Gore seems pretty sweet...it would net, what, 1 level loss of Master Chymist? And I guess slightly delay the acquisition of Dragon Style.


Delay the feats, since fighter is for heavy armor prof and the extra feat.

Limited number of rage rounds. Something like 6+con mod, which is 12 with AMY. So... 7 minimum. Maybe 9 maximum. I guess that's enough.

Fatigued after rage would need to be mitigated. I guess lesser restoration works.

Gore attack would be in the same boat as bite. The extra attack is great, but won't benefit from dragon style.

AMY 's goal was to be functional as soon as possible. Armored Hulk hurt that. As long as you have no more than 4 non-alchemist / Chymist levels, it should work.

Also, you wouldn't get pounce until level 15. Master Chymist should be grabbed ASAP so you can have more mutagens. Using Infuse Mutagen could negate that, but that's expensive :-)


Cheapy wrote:

Delay the feats, since fighter is for heavy armor prof and the extra feat.

Limited number of rage rounds. Something like 6+con mod, which is 12 with AMY. So... 7 minimum. Maybe 9 maximum. I guess that's enough.

Fatigued after rage would need to be mitigated. I guess lesser restoration works.

Gore attack would be in the same boat as bite. The extra attack is great, but won't benefit from dragon style.

AMY 's goal was to be functional as soon as possible. Armored Hulk hurt that. As long as you have no more than 4 non-alchemist / Chymist levels, it should work.

Also, you wouldn't get pounce until level 15. Master Chymist should be grabbed ASAP so you can have more mutagens. Using Infuse Mutagen could negate that, but that's expensive :-)

Makes sense to me, thanks.

AMY should just get and AM BARBARIAN cohort and let him do the crazy stuff :D

Actually, that brings up a question, in terms of enhancing the insanity of this:
AM BARBARIAN's batty bat is critical to the build...what type of cohort would push AMY even further off the charts? A lil AMY 2 levels lower to call her own?


AMY will never touch AM's damage output at level 20.

I'd guess a bard with those feats that increase the bonus from Inspire Courage. Someone to give her Haste, Greater Heroism, and Inspire Courage. That's...+11 to hit at level 18? +4 base inspire courage, +2 feats, +1 haste, +4 greater heroism. And +6 damage. Although that's barely the important part.

Brilliant Inspiration basically ensures all attacks would hit.

Vengeful Outrage on AMY to kill targets. +6 Morale boost to Str and Con, and +3 to Will :D. Just automatically fail the save.

Then again, Bard is my answer to most questions in PF.


Ok. Now I'm imagining AMY and AM wandering around with a bard in tow who's always singing about how awesome they are going around smashing castys.

Cheapy, you are awesome.


Cheapy wrote:
Then again, Bard is my answer to most questions in PF.

AM BARD-BARIAN FTW.

I have a question about that, though (and tell me if it's better stated in the AM BARBARIAN thread or even elsewhere):

I've seen where no casty has a chance against AM BARBARIAN, but I don't see where *no one* has a chance against AM BARBARIAN.

How is his all around damage going to top hers consistently?
Or are we assuming he is going to charge or drop buildings on every opponent he comes across ever?


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Cheapy wrote:
wait what, how do you have 37 AC at that level?

Half-Elf Ranger 2/Vivisectionist 8

Spoiler:

Take the Dual Minded alternate racial for a +2 will save
Traits:
Magical Knact(level 10 extracts)
Indomiable Faith(+1 will)
Can swap for Ease of Faith(diplomacy), or Fast-Talker(Bluff) depending on your tastes

Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Multi Attack, Iron Will

Take power attack as bonus ranger feat so you don't need strength of 13.
Favored Enemy: Human +2

Discoveries: Feral Mutagen, Bleeding Attack, Vestigial Arm, Infusion

Gear:
Belt of dexterity +4 16,000
Celestial armor 22,400
+2 scimitar 8300
+3 cloak of resistance 9000
Headband of Int +2 4000
about 2500 gold left over

Stats
Str 10
Dex 26 15 +1 level +4 belt +4 mutagen
Con 14 13 +1 level
Int 14 12 +2 headband
Wis 12 14 -2 mutagen
Chr 8

HP: 16 base ranger +40 base alchemist +8 favored class +20 con = 84
Fort: +9 base +3 cloak +2 heroism +2 con = +16
Ref: +9 base +3 cloak +2 heroism +8 dex = +22
Will: +2 base +3 cloak +2 heroism +2 Helf +2 iron will +1 wisdom +1 trait = +13

Base scimitar +8 base +8 dex +2 heroism +2 weapon = +20/+15 to hit for 1d6 + 10 damage
Claw/bite would be +16 to hit
Power Attack for -3/+6 on all gives you a basic full attack of
+17/+12 1d6+16, +13 1d6+6, +13/+13 1d4+6
Flanking +2 to hit, +4d6 sneak attack
Favored Enemy is a +2/+2 to all attacks

26 dex -> +8AC

Mutagen +2 natural armor bonus

Dodge feat +1

Celestial armor +8 AC with a +8 max dex

Barkskin extract +4 enhancement to existing natural armor

All buffs so far last 80 minutes or more.
AC: 33 Touch AC:19

Shield extract +4 shield bonus

AC:37 Touch AC:19 <- This is where my 37 AC came from

You can squeeze out 2 more AC with a Monsterous Physique(medium creature) extract +2 natural armor

AC:39 Touch AC:19

If you want to really cheese it, get a level 20 potion of Shield of Faith(costs 1000 gold) and use alchemical allocation. Kind of a waste for an 20 minute buff

AC:44 Touch AC 24

At level 10

Base damage is around 40-50 damage per round, but with flanking + sneak attack + favored enemy bonus, you will do about 100 damage per round. The only non-class skills are Acrobatics(which is at +6 untrained), Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive, and Knowledge(Engineering, History, Local, Nobility, Planes, Religion).

Ranger is quite possibly the best class to compliment a Vivisectionist IMO.


furiously takes note


ecw1701 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

Delay the feats, since fighter is for heavy armor prof and the extra feat.

Limited number of rage rounds. Something like 6+con mod, which is 12 with AMY. So... 7 minimum. Maybe 9 maximum. I guess that's enough.

Fatigued after rage would need to be mitigated. I guess lesser restoration works.

Gore attack would be in the same boat as bite. The extra attack is great, but won't benefit from dragon style.

AMY 's goal was to be functional as soon as possible. Armored Hulk hurt that. As long as you have no more than 4 non-alchemist / Chymist levels, it should work.

Also, you wouldn't get pounce until level 15. Master Chymist should be grabbed ASAP so you can have more mutagens. Using Infuse Mutagen could negate that, but that's expensive :-)

Makes sense to me, thanks.

AMY should just get and AM BARBARIAN cohort and let him do the crazy stuff :D

Actually, that brings up a question, in terms of enhancing the insanity of this:
AM BARBARIAN's batty bat is critical to the build...what type of cohort would push AMY even further off the charts? A lil AMY 2 levels lower to call her own?

Being that AMY is really dependant on lots of attacks, a bard would do wonders. +hit, and +damage on every attack with haste and similar short term buffs. A pocket dispel magic and glitter dust for dealing with buffed casters.


Cheapy wrote:
Amy Alchy

I cant find what allows you to swap Discoverys out for Feats? You show amy doing this at level 7 (alch4) for bleeding strike. Can you point me to the book this is in?


Slacker2010 wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Amy Alchy
I cant find what allows you to swap Discoverys out for Feats? You show amy doing this at level 7 (alch4) for bleeding strike. Can you point me to the book this is in?

Sure, mate. Just look at the Bleeding Attack class ability.

Lets them use Bleeding Attack rogue talent. I may have typed the wrong name in.


Aaaand fixed.


You know....
Forgive my ignorance, but is there any particular reason why *AMY* can't be built to ragelancepounce?

Especially if she dips into Armored Hulk instead of Fighter (despite the aforementioned drawbacks) ?


Cheapy wrote:

Recently I was thinking of trying to add even more cheese to the alchemist. Here's something I came up with.

Beastmorph and Vivisectionist stack.

One level of Master of Many Styles gets us a style feat and Improved Unarmed Strike.

This build comes together at level 5, and gets much better afterwards.
** spoiler omitted **
At this point, you are a Alchemist 4 / Monk 2.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **...

What would you say to a build along the lines of:

Half-Orc, toothy trait, intimidate traits
Barb 1, Armored Brute, Chaos Rage feat (dragon magazine, effective barb level for rage powers is +4 (equal to max hd)), Fiendish Totem (lesser)
Monk 1, Master of Many Forms, Feat x
Monk 2, Pick up Boar style and Pick up Dragon style
Alch n, Omit Feral Mutagen in favor of something else, Get rage power

Net changes: 2 rage powers at 4th, another +4 str/con and +2 willsaves, Heavy armor proficiency, +1d8 gore, and likely an intimidate feat because you have so many bonuses.
-effective 1d4 bite, -1 CL to alch, -1 feat

Alternatively,
2 Barb, 1 Monk,
3 rage powers, uncanny dodge (or other ability)
-feat -evasion

This hinges on your DM being nice as Chaos Rage is a paizo feat but was made for 3.5 back in the day.

Alternatively again, you could skip Armored Brute and grab Snake style, going maybe half elf (adopted toothy) for skill focus sense motive.


But Barbs are stuck to being nonlawful, while Monks, unless Martial Artists (an archetype that can't be mixed with Many Styles), are stuck to being lawful.


Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
But Barbs are stuck to being nonlawful, while Monks, unless Martial Artists (an archetype that can't be mixed with Many Styles), are stuck to being lawful.

Starts Barb for HP reasons, finds ascetic order that takes him in and quells his anger for a while, learns to be a monk, gets out remembers rage, finds better path in life non lawful again (monks don't lose their powers being non lawful!) happy hfun times.


Akeaka wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
But Barbs are stuck to being nonlawful, while Monks, unless Martial Artists (an archetype that can't be mixed with Many Styles), are stuck to being lawful.
Starts Barb for HP reasons, finds ascetic order that takes him in and quells his anger for a while, learns to be a monk, gets out remembers rage, finds better path in life non lawful again (monks don't lose their powers being non lawful!) happy hfun times.

Right, it just means once she leaves the class she can't go back.

So get all the barbarian levels or monk levels you intend to have before switching to the other.


ecw1701 wrote:
Akeaka wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
But Barbs are stuck to being nonlawful, while Monks, unless Martial Artists (an archetype that can't be mixed with Many Styles), are stuck to being lawful.
Starts Barb for HP reasons, finds ascetic order that takes him in and quells his anger for a while, learns to be a monk, gets out remembers rage, finds better path in life non lawful again (monks don't lose their powers being non lawful!) happy hfun times.

Right, it just means once she leaves the class she can't go back.

So get all the barbarian levels or monk levels you intend to have before switching to the other.

The intention of the build is to gain the maximum possible benefits with the least amount of level dump into other classes. Past level 3 you won't be taking anything other than Alchemist or Master Cymist anyhow!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Charender wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
wait what, how do you have 37 AC at that level?

Half-Elf Ranger 2/Vivisectionist 8

** spoiler omitted **

26 dex -> +8AC

Mutagen +2 natural armor bonus

Dodge feat +1

Celestial armor +8 AC with a +8 max dex

Barkskin extract +4 enhancement to existing natural armor

All buffs so far last 80 minutes or more.
AC: 33 Touch AC:19

Shield extract +4 shield bonus

AC:37 Touch AC:19 <- This is where my 37 AC came from

You can squeeze out 2 more AC with a Monsterous Physique(medium creature) extract +2 natural armor

AC:39 Touch AC:19

If you want to really cheese it, get a level 20 potion of Shield of Faith(costs 1000 gold) and use alchemical allocation. Kind of a waste for an 20...

Your Dex is actually 24. (15 +1 +4 +4). Unless there's a +2 racial in there.

And once again Celestial Armor shows how incredibly underpriced it is.

When proclaiming AC, you have to go walk-around instead of buffed.

Can you actually create an extract of Shield? I thought it was ineligible for the same reason it can't be made into a potion.

Consumables really shouldn't be factored any more then temporary spells should be. Anybody can buy consumables for nova purposes.

==Aelryinth


Akeaka wrote:
Squawk Featherbeak wrote:
But Barbs are stuck to being nonlawful, while Monks, unless Martial Artists (an archetype that can't be mixed with Many Styles), are stuck to being lawful.
Starts Barb for HP reasons, finds ascetic order that takes him in and quells his anger for a while, learns to be a monk, gets out remembers rage, finds better path in life non lawful again (monks don't lose their powers being non lawful!) happy hfun times.

With this logic, wouldn't it be better to start with monk? If you lose Barbarian, shouldn't you lose rage forever with Atonement being impossible since you didn't anger a deity in the first place?


NeverNever wrote:
AdAstraGames wrote:

My only question is this:

Why would this be fun to play?

You've essentially got the Hulk here. Specially if you take the barb route. Why WOULDN'T that be fun too play?

There is also the fact whatever you do, can get done to you.

If you show up with a crazy powerful character that you proceed to abuse, the DM can throw the exact same thing back at you.

You break the game by playing AMY? Then AM BARBARIAN charges you *while* your sister ALICE sneak attacks you for 9 million points of damage.

I have to say, these 'it's too powerful to even play' arguments are really weird to me. If you like having weak characters then stop taking xp and take a lvl 10 party into a lvl 20 dungeon; that should be *plenty* fun!
"No explosive rounds? What are we supposed to use, harsh language?"

I think builds like AMY and even AM BARBARIAN are totally legit and admissible. For my money it actually enhances story telling and role playing; if the DM knows he has the Hulk in the party, create encounters where that's not enough. An enemy that can't be attacked (because it's the king). An enemy who can't be killed because they are non-corporeal, or a lich. Have the party attacked by an entire army, or split apart.
Make traps a bigger deal; timeless classics like flint golems in rooms filled with flammable gasses.
For plot reasons, make the mutated form come to HATE the mortal form...or one of the two hates the other players and hijinks ensue.
Anything.

"The characters are too powerful" is the universal excuse for lazy DMing, and I've been DMing and playing for a very long time.


ecw1701 wrote:
*stuffs*

Just to say, my point was more aimed at the "oh who would ever want to play something that powerful?"

Well, why do we read about superman and the hulk? Just because somethings insanely powerful, doesn't mean it HAS to be boring role play wise.

While I completely agree with a lot of your post, the whole making the other form hate etc, the dm does not and certainly SHOULD not have control over role playing aspects of a character. The only point where your mutated form has it's own personality is with master chymist and it's pretty clear that's meant to be under player control.


ecw1701 wrote:
I think builds like AMY and even AM BARBARIAN are totally legit and admissible. For my money it actually enhances story telling and role playing; if the DM knows he has the Hulk in the party, create encounters where that's not enough. An enemy that can't be attacked (because it's the king). An enemy who can't be killed because they are non-corporeal, or a lich. Have the party attacked by an entire army, or split apart.

Playing an allcaps build tends to lead to problems both with the GM (who may not be prepared for such a character) and the other players (Who may not have powered them up to such a degree, and may feel left out of the fun if you do everything).

If everyone is making characters this stupidliculously broken and the GM knows and plans for it, then it's likely just fine.

Otherwise, I heartily heartily heartily recommend against allcaps builds.


Quote:
Can you actually create an extract of Shield? I thought it was ineligible for the same reason it can't be made into a potion.
Quote:
Extracts are the most varied of the three. In many ways, they behave like spells in potion form, and as such their effects can be dispelled by effects like dispel magic using the alchemist's level as the caster level. Unlike potions, though, extracts can have powerful effects and duplicate spells that a potion normally could not.

Also note that there's nothing to prevent an infused extract of true strike or shield either.


Trinam wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:
I think builds like AMY and even AM BARBARIAN are totally legit and admissible. For my money it actually enhances story telling and role playing; if the DM knows he has the Hulk in the party, create encounters where that's not enough. An enemy that can't be attacked (because it's the king). An enemy who can't be killed because they are non-corporeal, or a lich. Have the party attacked by an entire army, or split apart.

Playing an allcaps build tends to lead to problems both with the GM (who may not be prepared for such a character) and the other players (Who may not have powered them up to such a degree, and may feel left out of the fun if you do everything).

If everyone is making characters this stupidliculously broken and the GM knows and plans for it, then it's likely just fine.

Otherwise, I heartily heartily heartily recommend against allcaps builds.

My dearest friend Trinam speaks the trUTH HERE AND IF YOU AM PLAY BUILD AM TEAR YOU


AMY ALCHY wrote:
Trinam wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:
I think builds like AMY and even AM BARBARIAN are totally legit and admissible. For my money it actually enhances story telling and role playing; if the DM knows he has the Hulk in the party, create encounters where that's not enough. An enemy that can't be attacked (because it's the king). An enemy who can't be killed because they are non-corporeal, or a lich. Have the party attacked by an entire army, or split apart.

Playing an allcaps build tends to lead to problems both with the GM (who may not be prepared for such a character) and the other players (Who may not have powered them up to such a degree, and may feel left out of the fun if you do everything).

If everyone is making characters this stupidliculously broken and the GM knows and plans for it, then it's likely just fine.

Otherwise, I heartily heartily heartily recommend against allcaps builds.

My dearest friend Trinam speaks the trUTH HERE AND IF YOU AM PLAY BUILD AM TEAR YOU

!!!

She has a face!
I was expecting something more like this though.


ecw1701 wrote:
AMY ALCHY wrote:
Trinam wrote:
ecw1701 wrote:
I think builds like AMY and even AM BARBARIAN are totally legit and admissible. For my money it actually enhances story telling and role playing; if the DM knows he has the Hulk in the party, create encounters where that's not enough. An enemy that can't be attacked (because it's the king). An enemy who can't be killed because they are non-corporeal, or a lich. Have the party attacked by an entire army, or split apart.

Playing an allcaps build tends to lead to problems both with the GM (who may not be prepared for such a character) and the other players (Who may not have powered them up to such a degree, and may feel left out of the fun if you do everything).

If everyone is making characters this stupidliculously broken and the GM knows and plans for it, then it's likely just fine.

Otherwise, I heartily heartily heartily recommend against allcaps builds.

My dearest friend Trinam speaks the trUTH HERE AND IF YOU AM PLAY BUILD AM TEAR YOU

!!!

She has a face!
I was expecting something more like this though.

This is before she drinks the mutagen.


Cheapy wrote:


Otherwise, I heartily heartily heartily recommend against allcaps builds.
My dearest friend Trinam speaks the trUTH HERE AND IF YOU AM PLAY BUILD AM TEAR YOU

!!!

She has a face!
I was expecting something more like this though.

This is before she drinks the mutagen." (Somehow I messed up the close /quote formatting)

Well played.

Again, I draw a BIG line between cheating and exploits, and making the most of RAW. AMY and AM share the same strength, and the same weakness: they are shining stars in very specific scenarios, scenarios that can easily be prevented with a little planning on the part of BBEG/DM...BBDM. Getting mad at them for laying out sick DPR is like getting mad at a Paladin for being able to smite the hell out of an evil target at 20th level.

If the character is playing Superman, make the villain Lex Luthor wearing a kryptonite jock strap with Lois Lane sequestered in a pocket dimension surrounded by 200 red dragons. Or have them attacked by *5* AMY BARBARIANS from the Phantom Zone or something. Anything.

Of course, if one of the players is *Batman*, you are boned.


Please, forgive my ignorance, but how does the natural attacks granted from the feral mutagen interact with the Ranger's base attacks with the scimitar?

I ask, because this is an excellent basis for a Witcher style character that I've been trying to make for my weekend game. I'd have to be able to explain how it all works.

So you get two main hand weapon attacks, and then claw, claw, bite as secondary attacks ?

What would you modify for the casual level 8 player ? I simply love this build, and the flavor it introduces!

Charender wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
wait what, how do you have 37 AC at that level?

Half-Elf Ranger 2/Vivisectionist 8

** spoiler omitted **

26 dex -> +8AC

Mutagen +2 natural armor bonus

Dodge feat +1

Celestial armor +8 AC with a +8 max dex

Barkskin extract +4 enhancement to existing natural armor

All buffs so far last 80 minutes or more.
AC: 33 Touch AC:19

Shield extract +4 shield bonus

AC:37 Touch AC:19 <- This is where my 37 AC came from

You can squeeze out 2 more AC with a Monsterous Physique(medium creature) extract +2 natural armor

AC:39 Touch AC:19

If you want to really cheese it, get a level 20 potion of Shield of Faith(costs 1000 gold) and use alchemical allocation. Kind of a waste for an 20...


Sorry to raise the dead post, but I noticed that Sneak Attack says:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Doesn't that mean that while mounted AMY could Sneak Attack/Lance/Pounce?
And if so, shouldn't she be able to beat AM BARBARIAN's damage output?


As long as the conditions hold, yes.

Also, there's an error in her build. Let's see who can find it first :)


ecw1701 wrote:

Sorry to raise the dead post, but I noticed that Sneak Attack says:

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

Doesn't that mean that while mounted AMY could Sneak Attack/Lance/Pounce?
And if so, shouldn't she be able to beat AM BARBARIAN's damage output?

Beating AM BARBARIAN's damage output is actually really easy. I was able to do it with a cavalier. What makes AM BARBARIAN special is that he's currently the only purely non-magical character who can sunder spell effects and drive their saves against spells into the upper stratosphere. Combined with a devastating first round attack sequence the goal is for AM BARBARIAN to plow through any last second defenses a mage might put up and render them into pink mist instantly.

What AMY ALCHY accomplishes is a bit of versatility along with the insanity. She'll have extracts she can put to use to overcome mundane obstacles or to pass around to her friends.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Meh. I'm not too worried about this build. It takes too many levels to make it viable. Heck, I think maxed out at lvl 20, dropping most critters in the games in a few rounds (assuming they don't use logic to cause the charge to fail) is reasonable as a twice a day trick.

And it's got really obvious breaks since is reiles on pounce and charging.

I have to admit AM BARBARIAN's ability to hammer though close range defenses is insane. Remind me to put more bodyguards on my NPC baddies. Especially ones that can throw themselves into a hit.


TarkXT wrote:


Beating AM BARBARIAN's damage output is actually really easy. I was able to do it with a cavalier. What makes AM BARBARIAN special is that he's currently the only purely non-magical character who can sunder spell effects and drive their saves against spells into the upper stratosphere. Combined with a devastating first round attack sequence the goal is for AM BARBARIAN to plow through any last second defenses a mage might put up and render them into pink mist instantly.

What AMY ALCHY accomplishes is a bit of versatility along with the insanity. She'll have extracts she can put to use to overcome mundane obstacles or to pass around to her friends.

At least AM BARBARIAN would be that if he actually existed.

Besides the save throws aren't that hard to do -- a dwarven cleric can easily have the same if not better saves, same with most classes actually.

DC's for the spells can still exceed this, but doing so isn't something you'll see in an everyday game (I hope).


TheLoneCleric wrote:

Meh. I'm not too worried about this build. It takes too many levels to make it viable. Heck, I think maxed out at lvl 20, dropping most critters in the games in a few rounds (assuming they don't use logic to cause the charge to fail) is reasonable as a twice a day trick.

And it's got really obvious breaks since is reiles on pounce and charging.

I have to admit AM BARBARIAN's ability to hammer though close range defenses is insane. Remind me to put more bodyguards on my NPC baddies. Especially ones that can throw themselves into a hit.

AMY doesn't rely on pouncing or charging. That's just the icing on the cake.

And she comes together at level 3. She gets nasty at level 5. She gets omgwtf later on. A lot of builds don't come together until level 5 or 6.

Although I am not 100% on who you were referring to.


I am not sure who he's referring to, either; since this part:

TheLoneCleric wrote:
Meh. I'm not too worried about this build. It takes too many levels to make it viable. Heck, I think maxed out at lvl 20, dropping most critters in the games in a few rounds (assuming they don't use logic to cause the charge to fail) is reasonable as a twice a day trick.

seems to refer to AMY, but then

TheLoneCleric wrote:

And it's got really obvious breaks since is reiles on pounce and charging.

I have to admit AM BARBARIAN's ability to hammer though close range defenses is insane. Remind me to put more bodyguards on my NPC baddies. Especially ones that can throw themselves into a hit.

seems to be referring to AM...since it names him directly.

I'm going to put my money on all of it is referring to AM; since it *would take a while to actually be able to rage/lance/pounce from 10 miles away, and as you say: Amy is brutal out of the box.

EDIT: then again AM 1-shots people from an impossible distance, as many times per day as he has rage, so never mind, I don't know what he's talking about ;)


Cheapy,

Has the error been fixed in the Google Docs version of the build, or is it still there?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ya sorry, was talking about AM not AMY. Looking back AMY is in my 'watch but might be okay' area.


It has not been fixed. The order of the first three classes is incorrect. I believe that it has to be unarmed fighter first, then monk. I need to double check if it still works.

The mistake was that I assumed that the feats in the style tree were also Style Feats.

They aren't, despite being under the Style Feat header in the table.

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