I also read these threads with Shock & Awe. Shock that Pathfinder in such a short space of time has become as broken as any d20 previous, and Awe that so many people pat Paizo on the back for doing exactly what many dreaded would happen once the 'splat books' started coming out after the excellent Core Rule book. Still by the 7th or 8th printings of each book perhaps sanity will return to the game.
I love Paizo for their creativity (meaning Adventure Paths & Settings), but PLEASE step away from the Rules now before completely and irreversibly damaging your wonderful game. I know things are getting bad when I find myself thinking - 3.5e wasn't that bad on reflection...
I'd ask that if anyone wishes to respond to Stefan and argue this point, please do so in another thread.
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I'd ask that if anyone wishes to respond to Stefan and argue this point, please do so in another thread.I also read these threads with Shock & Awe. Shock that Pathfinder in such a short space of time has become as broken as any d20 previous, and Awe that so many people pat Paizo on the back for doing exactly what many dreaded would happen once the 'splat books' started coming out after the excellent Core Rule book. Still by the 7th or 8th printings of each book perhaps sanity will return to the game.
I love Paizo for their creativity (meaning Adventure Paths & Settings), but PLEASE step away from the Rules now before completely and irreversibly damaging your wonderful game. I know things are getting bad when I find myself thinking - 3.5e wasn't that bad on reflection...
Agreed. Sorry for the derailing comment - but your build is well, I'm speechless. No offense to you meant, just shocked as all hell. As a show of rule knowledge I give you an A+, it was the wider context of the game I was referring to, again, NOT the fact you did this exercise.
Regards,
S.
I understand! That's how I took it. I think I made it clear that I did not advocate this build at all. It is, as the title says, an exercise in ridiculousness.
I see a potential problem to this build difficult terrain.
AM does not have this problem becuase of flying mount.
I see a potential problem to this build difficult terrain.
AM does not have this problem becuase of flying mount.
AMY can charge through difficult terrain at level 1 due to dragon style.
At level 9, she will be flying when using the mutagen. Due to only needing three discoveries, she can also take Wings.
Unless I'm missing something really subtle (or not remember accurately an ability), this should be 100% RAW.
Added HP / AC / Saves.
Rough outline of Items at level 5:
10,500 gp WBL
Fullplate 1,500gp
Belt of Giant Strength +2 4000gp
Cloak of Resistance +2 4k
1k for odds and endsHP, assuming max at first level, then half on level up.
8 (max monk) + 5 (toughness) + 5 (+1 con) + 12.5 (3 rolled d8 levels) + 5.5 (fighter) + 2 (favored class) = 38AC: 22 (10 base + 1 dex + 11 Fullplate +2 Mutagen). This gives the average CR5 critter with good attacks a 40% chance to hit. Quaff an extract of Shield before combat (lasts 2 minutes), and the AC will jump to 26, giving the average good hitting monster a 20% chance to hit. A creature with a poor attack can only hit on a crit.
Saves:
Fort: 3 (Alchemist) + 2 (fighter) + 3 (monk) + 1 (con) +2 (Cloak of Resistance) = +11
Reflex: 3 (Alch) + 3(monk) + 1 (dex) + 2 (cloak) = +9
Will: 3 (monk) + 0 (Wisdom) + 2 (cloak) +1 trait = +6 (For reference: A fighter with 10 Wis will have +3 with the same items.)
And with some napkin math, assuming a con of 14 base, going up to 18 with Rage, AM should have...48 base HP, going up to 58 when in a rage. I don't know what his AC is, but I'm guessing most of the defense comes from DR. My guess is that he cannot survive two full-rounds against AMY in her worst case. With power attack, she can definitely overcome the DR.
She can't ever flank him though.
Some further ridiculousness.
1 level Barb (w/ Extra Rage) Why not? (Monk now ex-Monk)
1 level Summoner/4 levels Dragon Disciple: +4 Str, some natural armor, still can wear light armor & cast, hurts progression to Master Chymist & higher mutagens but good Str IF working with a level cap.
At 10th, w/ Alchemist 4, you have +12 Str. (Mutagen/DD/Rage) + 2 sources of Enlarge/Bull's Strength for +18. (At least I think Summ/Alch get to 2nd level spells by then...) BAB +7.
Whacky cool.
Yep. The important bit is the first 5 levels. The rest can be whatever. Pumping strength will do wonders. Staying in alchemist will give great defenses and much better mutagens.
Does this character have pounce at level 5?
Does this character have pounce at level 5?
No. The version in the Google doc gets it at 13. The version in the original post gets it at level 12.a straight class alchemist gets it at 10 from beastmorph.
I think it's a neat exercise in natural attack math but what happens at level 6 when the fighter gains another attack? Also it is dependant upon getting a full attack while flanking in order to maximize damage. The mutagen is possible for one encounter per day as well which limits consistency but you could say that you will have the time to make more. A cavalier can do similar damage with out necessarily having the same dependency. I don't think it makes anything broken since pathfinder has been adapted to compensate for the power increase but YMMV.
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Well, at level 6 when the fighter has two attacks, the Alchemist still has three attacks, at around the same bonuses. Even once the fighter has 4 attacks at 16, The Alchemist is most likely going to lead slightly in average number of hits.
The Mutagen can be brewed again, if need be. It also has a decent duration. You could easily have more than one encounter in 10 min/level. A cavalier's damage is target dependent. They can only challenge X times per day, whereas, with preparation between uses, the alchemist can pump out this damage all day.
The fighter will get that second attack at -5. It'll help out some. Might even make their best case beat the alchemist's worst case.
At 16, the alchemist should *still* be ahead, since they'll be making 4 attacks at their *full* BAB. The fighter's attacks at -10 and -15 can be fairly safely written off as misses
As Edgar mentioned, you can re-brew Mutagens. If you take a level of Master Chymist, you have 2 uses of mutagen per day that don't rely on the mutagen proper.
To be clear, the main issue isn't the damage they can pump out. It's the number of attacks at their highest BAB, combined with the high damage.
With Haste, the fighter will be getting 2 attacks at his highest BAB. With haste, the alchemist will be getting 4.
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I also read these threads with Shock & Awe. Shock that Pathfinder in such a short space of time has become as broken as any d20 previous, and Awe that so many people pat Paizo on the back for doing exactly what many dreaded would happen once the 'splat books' started coming out after the excellent Core Rule book. Still by the 7th or 8th printings of each book perhaps sanity will return to the game.
I love Paizo for their creativity (meaning Adventure Paths & Settings), but PLEASE step away from the Rules now before completely and irreversibly damaging your wonderful game. I know things are getting bad when I find myself thinking - 3.5e wasn't that bad on reflection...
I think there's a difference between letting just about anything(oh god Pun-Pun) slip through the cracks and making it possible to maximize towards ridiculousness. Because that's what this was, an exercise in ridiculousness. Have a regular table with a run-of-the-mill gm and there'd be no +5 magic fang potion or leveraging the strength score through monk and Dragon Style. The point is to stress the system to the limit. This is theory in a vacuum, not a grand gesture towards some absolute state of brokenness that will set the state of character building. We've had these before, you know. Remember Falchion Fred? He doesn't even need dips to be devastating.
And as for broken rules; damage-maximizing theorycraft has about the same effect as CharOp boards had to 3.5 DnD - not a whole lot. All Paizo has done is to give a lot of tools to reach the the kind of combat superiority that fighters used to have previously in PF. Taking it to the limit has zero effect on regular tables. Big numbers don't amount to a failed system.
Muser, I'd like to request you bring that post to another thread. I'd really rather not have this derailed.
And I have so many things to say about this build in that other thread, if someone makes it.
The fighter will get that second attack at -5. It'll help out some. Might even make their best case beat the alchemist's worst case.
At 16, the alchemist should *still* be ahead, since they'll be making 4 attacks at their *full* BAB. The fighter's attacks at -10 and -15 can be fairly safely written off as misses
As Edgar mentioned, you can re-brew Mutagens. If you take a level of Master Chymist, you have 2 uses of mutagen per day that don't rely on the mutagen proper.
To be clear, the main issue isn't the damage they can pump out. It's the number of attacks at their highest BAB, combined with the high damage.
With Haste, the fighter will be getting 2 attacks at his highest BAB. With haste, the alchemist will be getting 4.
It's a good point, I'll look over the rest of the higher level stuff later.
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Muser, I'd like to request you bring that post to another thread. I'd really rather not have this derailed.
Oh, I don't know, have we something to talk about that keeping the thread on course is paramount? I think we've established that it's a damn powerful build(my alchemist is saving for a potion of magic fang as we write), going on a tangent should be pretty natural by now. :P
Muser, I'd like to request you bring that post to another thread. I'd really rather not have this derailed.Oh, I don't know, have we something to talk about that keeping the thread on course is paramount? I think we've established that it's a damn powerful build(my alchemist is saving for a potion of magic fang as we write), going on a tangent should be pretty natural by now. :P
Yea...I guess you're right. It's mostly a matter of principle. I hate it when threads are derailed!
I was specifically hoping for a thread about Stefan's first statement. Could be interesting. Could also be the biggest flamewar ever, but uh...meh. There's the Hide Thread function now.
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Muser, I'd like to request you bring that post to another thread. I'd really rather not have this derailed.Oh, I don't know, have we something to talk about that keeping the thread on course is paramount? I think we've established that it's a damn powerful build(my alchemist is saving for a potion of magic fang as we write), going on a tangent should be pretty natural by now. :PYea...I guess you're right. It's mostly a matter of principle. I hate it when threads are derailed!
I was specifically hoping for a thread about Stefan's first statement. Could be interesting. Could also be the biggest flamewar ever, but uh...meh. There's the Hide Thread function now.
I don't hate it when threads derail, because meandering can be fun, but flame wars are nasty. That's why having "Paizo did" - "Paizo did not!" -thread is bleh and meh. Let's not.
Instead, let's break this build even further. Potion of Good Hope allocated and enhanced anyone?
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I was specifically hoping for a thread about Stefan's first statement. Could be interesting. Could also be the biggest flamewar ever, but uh...meh. There's the Hide Thread function now.
I've got the marshmellows! Let's get this flamewar started!
Everyone on the left say 'Paizo Sucks!' Everyone on the right say 'Paizo Rules!'
I was specifically hoping for a thread about Stefan's first statement. Could be interesting. Could also be the biggest flamewar ever, but uh...meh. There's the Hide Thread function now.I've got the marshmellows! Let's get this flamewar started!
Everyone on the left say 'Paizo Sucks!' Everyone on the right say 'Paizo Rules!'
More like hoping that there'd be an interesting discussion about the ephemeral nature of balance in tabletop RPGs and how that simply by adding more rules, you will eventually have unintentional issues.
Eh, like that'd ever happen...
I guess since this thread is already somewhat derailed, I will say this.
I do not think this is cheese.
I understand cheese to mean loose interpretation of rules. This thread and build is not that. This is 100% RAW. Or at least 99.999% RAW. The changeling race only gives one claw attack, but the fluff and the example enemy both indicated / show that it was meant to be 2 claws.
What it is is ridiculously overpowered because it marginalizes the contributions of others.
The houserules necessary to fix this are simple.
1) Feral Mutagen gives either 2 claws or 1 bite.
2) Make Beastmorph and Vivisectionist incompatible.
These two will allow this theme to be still useful, but it won't be super easy to just trounce all the enemies. Just the base alchemist with Feral Mutagen is quite powerful, but by itself is not too bad.
Also, I love backstory that AMY's build lends itself to. Warrior monks who also brew? Awesome!
Forgot something in my last post.
Gore
Barb 2 can take Gore as a rage power (Lesser Fiendish Totem, APG)
So Barb 2/Alch 2 has 4 primary attacks with +10 Str (Rage/Enlarge/Mutagen)
Summoner 1/Dragon Disciple 4 for +4 more Strength and backup claws (via Sorcerer Bloodline)
Eldritch Heritage-Abyssal for even more Strength.(2 at first, I think, don't have handy)
Or Bard 1/DD 4 to get Bard song +1/+1 to all four attacks, and access to some good defensive magic (i.e. Mirror Image)
As for Full Attacks being overrated & Combat Reflexes underrated, he can still wield weapons (longspear if not Barb) dropping to full attack, and can often be Enlarged.
He's getting both. (Though I have low Dex in my sample later.)
Barb 2/Alch 2/Bard 1/DD 4
4 attacks at Str 36 or so: +4 Rage/+2 Enlarge/+4 Mutagen/+4 DD/+2 Abyssal/+2 Enhancement (item)
15 pt buy (because we don't want to be powergamers...)
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 7 Cha 13
(Boost Str to 18 at 4th, ?? at 8th)
And the abyssal bloodline fits the fiendish totem, he's a demodragon mutation...who sings well.
BAB +6, 4 attacks +19 each for weapon+13 (+16/+17 w/ PA & size)
Oh, and Bard song on top of that for +17/wpn+18 x 4
Feats: PA, Eldritch Heritage Abyssal, Iron Will, Improved Iron Will (or he may kill the party...) Extra Rage, plus one more if human.
Saves Fort +10 Ref +7 Will +4 (+cloak & rage)
AC: 19 (+0 Dex (he's Enlarged), +4 Natural (2 DD/2 Mutagen), -2 Rage, +4 Chain Shirt, +4 Shield spell, -1 size) (+ enhancement to armor) So vulnerable, but killing anything that stands next to him and he can still have a deflection bonus.
(With the DD he may not need 2 levels in Alch (for feral, just 1 for mutagen), so maybe can get 2 levels in Monk for Dragon Style/Evasion/great saves)
Again, only looking at it w/ level cap. W/o, the great & grand mutagens are worth more Alchemist levels (and you'd be less 'NOVA' than this). This guy only explodes for 20 minutes w/ 2 minute Enlarge bursts. Note he still fights 'normal' when not so gross.
I don't think his defenses meet the DPR criteria, but he can drop Str to 16 to start (pumping Wis) and go w/o Enlarge (which nets a 2 AC drop)
Anyway, I'd hate to see one of these in my games, but...
Imagine having a 12 Str Halfling do this. Now that'd be funny.
"You're What!"
"Str 30..."
Oooh, imagine a tiny horde of these Alch 2/Barb 2 Halflings swarming a high level party. All sorts of fun.
"That little 'bleep' did HOW MUCH?"
Or even tiny gremlins...
Weaponizing other parts of your body does wonders :-)
I do enjoy the Shatter Defenses build, but at level 10, one level before you get SD, the alchemist will have Greater Invisibility maybe twice per day. So when you really need full sneak attack all the time for a combat, there's that. And it would save 3 feats. Yours has the advantage of not relying on limited resources, but doesn't work against enemies immune to fear effects.
If you want some more damage you can slap on an amulet of mighty fists +0 and as many flaming shocking freezing aciding etc enhancements as you can afford.
While the build is probably good in play, i don't think it would live up to its full potential. Even with dragon style its not always possible to charge your foes to get a full attack, and damage reduction (which, other than magic the potions of magic fang don't help) will take more off your damage than it would a two handed warrior.
If you want some more damage you can slap on an amulet of mighty fists +0 and as many flaming shocking freezing aciding etc enhancements as you can afford.
While the build is probably good in play, i don't think it would live up to its full potential. Even with dragon style its not always possible to charge your foes to get a full attack, and damage reduction (which, other than magic the potions of magic fang don't help) will take more off your damage than it would a two handed warrior.
Well, even if you somehow can't charge an enemy, the THF will have the same problem. And there are many situations where you can charge the enemy that the THF can't. Any situation that Dragon Style allows you to charge through for one. And using your Fly speed from Beast Shape for another.
Also, amulet of mighty fists +5 is for getting past DR and other stuff. If you start at level 13, you can easily afford that :D. Arcane Mark that too. Good luck saving up for it though if you start at 1st level. Maybe ask your crafter nicely.
The trip build isn't alchemist :) Trip builds are fun, but once you face flying foes or enemies with gazillion legs, or Huge size, tripping is very hard.
Well, even if you somehow can't charge an enemy, the THF will have the same problem.
Not to the same extent. A two hander's damage per round is front loaded into their first attack (since it has the highest attack bonus) Even if they don't pick up something like vital strike. (which looks bad on paper but works decently well in practice)
And there are many situations where you can charge the enemy that the THF can't.
The two hander builds were made before dragonstyle. I can't see any reason why a fighter can't afford the two feats to pick up the style.
Also, amulet of mighty fists +5 is for getting past DR and other stuff.
I don't know if that works. The amulet is based off of magic fang. ANd magic fang doesn't grant the ability to go through DRs other than magic.
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
If you start at level 13, you can easily afford that :D. Arcane Mark that too. Good luck saving up for it though if you start at 1st level. Maybe ask your crafter nicely.
Well, even if you somehow can't charge an enemy, the THF will have the same problem.Not to the same extent. A two hander's damage per round is front loaded into their first attack (since it has the highest attack bonus) Even if they don't pick up something like vital strike. (which looks bad on paper but works decently well in practice)
And there are many situations where you can charge the enemy that the THF can't.The two hander builds were made before dragonstyle. I can't see any reason why a fighter can't afford the two feats to pick up the style.
Also, amulet of mighty fists +5 is for getting past DR and other stuff.I don't know if that works. The amulet is based off of magic fang. ANd magic fang doesn't grant the ability to go through DRs other than magic.
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
If you start at level 13, you can easily afford that :D. Arcane Mark that too. Good luck saving up for it though if you start at 1st level. Maybe ask your crafter nicely.
The thing is dragon style costs skill 3 skill points to pick up for acrobatics not that acrobatics is a bad skill but fighters get so few.
I don't know if that works. The amulet is based off of magic fang. ANd magic fang doesn't grant the ability to go through DRs other than magic.
This spell functions like magic fang, except that the enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls is +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5). This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.
Completely irrelevant what spell its 'based off of'; it grants enhancements as per a weapon, and enhancement bonuses on weapons (barring special exemptions) bypass DR.
On the above and 3 ranks in Acrobatics; the advantage gained by spending those 3 ranks just for the possibility that you may one day full defense or total defense and net the extra AC make that an investment well spent IMO. Wont come up often, but its nice when it does.
The only thing that magic fang has to do with the amulet is that if you have it, you don't have to increase the spellcraft DC by 5.
The item itself doesn't place any restrictions on what the enhancement bonus affects. It works.
Also, this guy is frontloaded with damage too. His first attack uses 1-1/2 strength. Which means that power attack will be -1 / +3 per 4 bab. He probably won't be doing more damage in the case where he can only get one attack. But the next turn, when he will be able to full attack, he will more than make up for it.
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I'll freely admit this is an insanely potent build and totally defeats my Natural Weapon Ranger build. However, like that Ranger build it still is built around the same rules weakness; Natural Attacks.
I personally love natural attacks but they do remove the greatest limiting factor Paizo built into the melee game (diminishing attack bonuses on additional attacks). Anytime a character can ignore spending resources on overcome that limiting factor that leaves so much more to spend on increasing any/every other aspect.
Your build just takes this flaw to the inevitable conclusion, massive damage potential with plenty of resources left to spend on rounding out the toon.
Things like this will continue to pop up until this weakness is addressed. Since I really enjoy this game I really hope you keep going, make it so overpowered and easy to do that they have to address this issue.
Kudos, keep it up.
PS: For extra fun go ahead and toss Boar Style on there for extra bleed goodness. Charge into that group of baddies, hit each one twice so they take massive bleed damage on top of your monster hard hits and then Withdraw. They can either follow you or try to stop from bleeding to death in 3-4 rounds (tops). This handles that dogpile threat they keep talking about.
Him: Where did we put my original D&D box set?
Her: I think it's in the cabinet.
Him: Okay, I'll go look.
Her: What's that smell... Uhm, Honey?
Him : Yes?
Her: Why is our copy of the Pathfinder core rule book burning in the fireplace?
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Punishing the Core Rulebook for the Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Combat's sin? Classy.
This is all UCs fault. Beastmorph and dragon style pushed it over the edge. Feral combat style was needed tho, with the style feats.
Oh calm down. A martial character doing good damage is nowhere near 3.5 insanity. You can ring that alarm bell when your alchemist can do half the damage of a hulking hurler.
"So, how much XP do i get for obliterating a planet?"
Oh calm down. A martial character doing good damage is nowhere near 3.5 insanity. You can ring that alarm bell when your alchemist can do half the damage of a hulking hurler.
"So, how much XP do i get for obliterating a planet?"
Indeed. Call me when alchemists can literally turn into wolverine like certain psychic warrior builds.
Or when you can make an artificer that can literally gain infinite knowledge at level 3.
To date the insanity of pathfinder has come nowhere close to the insanity of 3.5
Indeed. Call me when alchemists can literally turn into wolverine like certain psychic warrior builds.
Um, Alchemists can grow Claws and have access to Spontaneous Healing. What else do I need for Wolverine again? Scent? Beastmorph or Half Orc has it covered.
I know its not what you meant, but... in a very literal sense...
Indeed. Call me when alchemists can literally turn into wolverine like certain psychic warrior builds.
Um, Alchemists can grow Claws and have access to Spontaneous Healing. What else do I need for Wolverine again? Scent? Beastmorph or Half Orc has it covered.
I know its not what you meant, but... in a very literal sense...
The build in question could slap you about twelve times for about 6d6+ridiculous damage per claw and heal half of the damage they dealt and were nigh unkillable. This was on the "tame" end of the 3.5 CharOp mad science lab.
The build in question could slap you about twelve times for about 6d6+ridiculous damage per claw and heal half of the damage they dealt and were nigh unkillable. This was on the "tame" end of the 3.5 CharOp mad science lab.Indeed. Call me when alchemists can literally turn into wolverine like certain psychic warrior builds.
Um, Alchemists can grow Claws and have access to Spontaneous Healing. What else do I need for Wolverine again? Scent? Beastmorph or Half Orc has it covered.
I know its not what you meant, but... in a very literal sense...
Oh I figured. I just thought it was important to note that if a player told me he wanted to be wolverine, I could point him right to Alchemist and show him exactly how to build the archetype, and superficially it'd be easy :)
So, just since I seemed to have missed this somewhere. You can level 2 different archetypes at the same time? So instead of at level 2 being a Vivisectionist 1, Beastmorph 1... at level 1 you can be be Vivisectionist/Beastmorph 1?