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The Dragon Style Vivisectionist Beastmorph Feral Mutagen Alchemist. An exercise in ridiculousness.


Advice

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Marathon Voter 2013

40 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Recently I was thinking of trying to add even more cheese to the alchemist. Here's something I came up with.

Beastmorph and Vivisectionist stack.

One level of Master of Many Styles gets us a style feat and Improved Unarmed Strike.

This build comes together at level 5, and gets much better afterwards.

Basic build:

Start with 18 strength.

At level 1, you take a level in Master of Many Styles monk. Grab Dragon Style.

Grab whatever feat you want at level 1.

So, feat-wise you now have: IUS, Stunning Fist, and Dragon Style. Yum.

2nd level, take Beastmorph / Vivisectionist Alchemist.

3rd level, grab Feral Mutagen discovery, and grab Weapon Focus (claws).

4th level, nothing to do here but to put the point into Str.

5th level, grab Feral Combat Training.

6th level, take a level of monk again, and select Dragon Ferocity.


At this point, you are a Alchemist 4 / Monk 2.

Mutagen's effects:
Your mutagen will give you +4 strength, for 40 minutes per use. You will have 3 attacks at +4 to hit (unless you use a sane method of BAB from multiclassing, at which point it'll be +6). Add those together, and we have +2 to hit from the mutagen.

To hit while under the effect of the mutagen:

When under the effect of our mutagen, we'll have 4 (str base bonus) + 4 (BAB) + 2 (mutagen) + 1 (belt) for +11 to hit. +12 for our claws. Our strength will be 25 (19 base + 4 mutagen + 2 belt). So, that's a bite at +11, and 2 claws at +12.

Comparable fighter:

A fighter at this level with the same Str will have 6 + 4 (base str) + 1 (belt) +1 weapon focus +1 weapon training = +13 to hit with one attack, and +8 with his second attack.

Explanation of Alch's attack routine:

Lets say our first attack, a claw attack, hits. We'll be doing 1d6+7(strength)+3 (dragon style's 1-1/2 Str) + 3 (dragon ferocity) = 1d6+13 damage. Our second claw attack will be doing 1d6+10 damage. Our bite will be just doing 1d8+7 damage.

So: +11 1d6+13 / +11 1d6+10 / +10 1d8+7 is our attack routine. If we're sneak attacking, that's +2d6 for all attacks.

Explanation of fighter's attack routine:

Greatsword Fighter: +13 2d6+5(str)+2(1.5 str)+2(wepspec)+1(wep training)

Fighter: +13 2d6+10 / +8 2d6+10. With power attack, this turns into +11 2d6+16 / +6 2d6+16

Power Attack added to the Alchemist at level 7:

At 7th level, we have a few options for our alchemist. We could grab Weapon Focus (bite) to later grab Feral Combat Training with that. Or we could add power attack. Let's just choose power attack.

This makes our routine:
+9 1d6+17 / +9 1d6+14 / +8 1d8+11

Fighter's routine jumps to +12 2d6+16 / +7 2d6+16.

Potion of Greater Magic Fang +5 and Alchemical Allocation:

Oh, and let's say that we have a potion of greater magic fang. Since this is theoretical, let's say it's a potion of greater magic fang with a CL of 20, so it gives +5 to hit and damage to one type of natural attack. In this case, that's going to be Claws.

Oh, and we have Alchemical Allocation, so we never run out of that thing. Drink it in the morning, and it'll last for 20 hours. No reason it should never be up. And if it gets stolen? It's only 3k.

That makes our attack routine:
+14 1d6+22 / +14 1d6+19 / +13 1d8+16.

Heck, we can drink it twice if we prepare AA twice. Apply it to the Bite attack!

+14 1d6+22 / +14 1d6+19 / +14 1d8+16.

Fighter is still at +12 2d6+16 / +7 2d6+16.

If we are able to sneak attack:

+14 1d6+22+3d6 / +14 1d6+19+3d6 / +14 1d8+16+3d6.

And all we've used up are 2 2nd level extract slots.

8th level alchemist, and Beast Shape I:

8th level! Alchemist. That means we get Beast Shape I's effects when we use the mutagen! Huzzah. Let's just grab Darkvision and Fly.

Fast Forwarding to level 12, Beast Shape 2, Pounce:

Fast forward to level 12. Beast Shape 2! Grab pounce, obviously. And fly. Here's the beauty of this archetype. You aren't restricted to a specific animal. You pick the abilities you want.

If you want, grab a level of Master Chymist to get multiple mutagen uses before you have to spend the hour making a new one.

I noticed an issue with my math above, in that Alter Self mutagen doesn't give you the bonuses to strength or dex. You just choose the abilities. So, just keep that in mind. But for this, I'll change the math to reflect that.

Our guy's attack routine. Base strength is 21. Mutagen adds +4. Belt adds +4. Total: 29, or +9.

BAB: +8

Routine:

Explanation of to-hit:

+8 (BAB) + 9(str) + 1 (wf) + 5 (gmf) -3 PA = +20 for claws, 19 for bite. Let's just throw an Amulet of Might Fists in for +2, so +22 Claws, +21 Bite.

Damage of claws::
1d6 + 9 (str) + 4(Dragon Style) + (4 Dragon Ferocity) + 6 (power attack, which turns into +9 for the first one, since we have 1-1/2 str on that attack) + 5 (Potion of GMF) + 2 (Amulet of MF) = 1d6+30, or 1d6+33 on first attack.

Damage of Bite::
1d8+9+6+5+2= 1d8+22.

Full Routine: +22 1d6+33 / +22 1d6+30 / +21 1d8+22

Our friend the fighter:

Fighte calculations of to-hit and damage:

Str: 25 (base of 21 + 4 belt)
To-hit: +12 +7 (str) - 4 PA + 2 (weapon) + 2 (wf / gwf) + 2 weapon training = +21

Damage: 2d6+7+3(1-1/2 str)+2+4(wep spec)+12 PA = 2d6+28


+21 2d6+28 / +16 2d6+28 / +11 2d6+28

Furious Focus would clearly add +4 to the first attack of the fighter, and +3 to the first attack of the alchemist.

If we took the 9th and 11th level feat for WF (bite) and FCT (bite), the routine for the alch would be:
Full Routine: +22 1d6+33 / +22 1d6+30 / +22 1d8+30
When sneak attacking: +24 1d6+33+5d6 / +24 1d6+5d6 / +24 1d8+30+5d6
When pouncing into a sneak attack: +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d6+33+5d6 / +26 1d8+30+5d6

Also, they can take a discovery to let them have 2 extracts in one. Lets use that to grab Enlarge Person (+2 strength and reach!) and Shield (+4 AC!)

Oh yea, and he can fly.

Alternative: Taking 1 level of monk and one level of Fighter:

Instead of those WF Bite and FCT bite, we could take Medium Armor Prof. And then Heavy Armor Prof. Then go around in Full Plate, with +4 AC from Shield, and +2 from Mutagen. Or we can just drip a level into Fighter, and pick up an extra feat. We can take a -3 CL hit for all the damage and defenses those three dips will give us. We could make it just 2 levels of Dip if we do it right, taking a level of fighter once we would meet the pre-reqs for Dragon Ferocity. Get Heavy Armor Prof, and that Dragon Ferocity!

What's the point of this post? I dunno. I'm bored at work, and wanted to work out the math. I'm sure I messed up a bit of it, but it shouldn't change it too much. I also wanted a reference for later, hence the favoriting. I swear it's not due to an Enlarged ego!

edit: may as well fix the math error above with Alter Self. I think I fixed all the errors.

Google Docs Link to Amy Alchy

Shadow Lodge

*eyes glaze over*

The Exchange

I don't think the Alter Self portion of the Beastmorph Mutagen gives a bonus to strength. I haven't gotten much farther in your post. I'll post again with more constructive things once I have.


But can he outdamage a barbarian?

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
*eyes glaze over*

Yea yea, fixed that.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:

I don't think the Alter Self portion of the Beastmorph Mutagen gives a bonus to strength. I haven't gotten much farther in your post. I'll post again with more constructive things once I have.

It doesn't. I was too lazy to change the math. I might do that now.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As someone currently playing an alchemist, yes, you can go balls to the wall offence and do serious damage. However, a lot of your feat choices have scrapped important defensive feats like Iron Will (to make up for the poor will save and likely middling wisdom score), Toughness (to make up for the d8 hit dice in melee), and unless you include a fighter or barbarian dip you're still in light armour.

Your Alchemonk is ridiculously MAD. To achieve that 18 strength with a 20-point-buy would give other stats like this:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 14 (+2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 7 (-2)

Dex 12 in light or no armour? Ouch. Even with mutagen up we've only got an AC of 17, although it does admittedly jump up to 21 with shield. The will save is only middling, and while helped by the 2 levels of monk there is definite room for Iron Will in there. Unfortunately, I think we need the 14 con because we're working with a d8 hit die in melee, although I suppose we could drop it to 12 and try our luck. We need a high Intellect to be able to use the alchemist class skills, although once again we could drop it to 12 and minimize that aspect. Doing that we could go:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1)

Yes, offensively deadly. Yes you can pounce and kill things. You're gonna get dogpiled and die though.

That said, alchemical allocation is the greatest extract of all time. It's gonna stop my character from buying an Amulet of Mighty Fists until he can afford the 20,000gp Holy one.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trinam wrote:
But can he outdamage a barbarian?

I haven't done the DPR of this guy yet. I'd do it at 10th and 12th level. I'd take into consideration the DPR when pouncing, when Sneak Attacking, and when pouncing / sneak attacking.

Remember, this guy can eventually get Greater Invisibility, meaning he will almost *always* be getting Sneak Attack.

Throw up a barbarian build! I'd love to see how close this guy gets to him, although I suspect the barbarian may edge this guy out.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:

As someone currently playing an alchemist, yes, you can go balls to the wall offence and do serious damage. However, a lot of your feat choices have scrapped important defensive feats like Iron Will (to make up for the poor will save and likely middling wisdom score), Toughness (to make up for the d8 hit dice in melee), and unless you include a fighter or barbarian dip you're still in light armour.

Your Alchemonk is ridiculously MAD. To achieve that 18 strength with a 20-point-buy would give other stats like this:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 14 (+2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 7 (-2)

Dex 12 in light or no armour? Ouch. Even with mutagen up we've only got an AC of 17, although it does admittedly jump up to 21 with shield. The will save is only middling, and while helped by the 2 levels of monk there is definite room for Iron Will in there. Unfortunately, I think we need the 14 con because we're working with a d8 hit die in melee, although I suppose we could drop it to 12 and try our luck. We need a high Intellect to be able to use the alchemist class skills, although once again we could drop it to 12 and minimize that aspect. Doing that we could go:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1)

Yes, offensively deadly. Yes you can pounce and kill things. You're gonna get dogpiled and die though.

That said, alchemical allocation is the greatest extract of all time. It's gonna stop my character from buying an Amulet of Mighty Fists until he can afford the 20,000gp Holy one.

I did assume one would buy 16 points, and use a racial stat to hit 18 Str. If you go human, you can do that and grab Iron Will :D A level of master chymist will go a long way though.


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Mergy wrote:


Yes, offensively deadly. Yes you can pounce and kill things. You're gonna get dogpiled and die though.

Good thing your buddy the barbarian, your bro the cleric, and your GOD the wizard have controlled the battlefield and slaughtered all other opposition to dust isn't it? :)

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, buy your Bard or Cleric a scroll or 5 of Calm Emotions :)


I haven't finished the full build yet, but I can offer a prototype AM build's numbers.

At 20th, I'm looking at a roughly 900 foot charge radius with a vision radius of about 830ish feet. His attack iteration on a RAGELANCEPOUNCE (outvisioning everything in the game, he will get his charge) is ~47/47/42/37/32 (numbers likely not final, this was a low estimate) while power attacking.

His damage on a charge is 3d8+150 with PA, raised to +168 if witch hunter kicks in.

I haven't calculated exact dpr yet, but he can pretty easily down a jabberwocky inside of a round, even including the DR/vorpal. And with ride by attack, he never provokes. And the mount took dragon style, it can charge through hindering terrain to do it. Like a tornado.


Trinam wrote:

I haven't finished the full build yet, but I can offer a prototype AM build's numbers.

At 20th, I'm looking at a roughly 900 foot charge radius with a vision radius of about 830ish feet. His attack iteration on a RAGELANCEPOUNCE (outvisioning everything in the game, he will get his charge) is ~47/47/42/37/32 (numbers likely not final, this was a low estimate) while power attacking.

His damage on a charge is 3d8+150 with PA, raised to +168 if witch hunter kicks in.

I haven't calculated exact dpr yet, but he can pretty easily down a jabberwocky inside of a round, even including the DR/vorpal. And with ride by attack, he never provokes. And the mount took dragon style, it can charge through hindering terrain to do it. Like a tornado.

It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.


TarkXT wrote:
It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.

And the eidolon is a Dire bat/dragon/MLP:FIM Pegasus mix. That settles everything.

The Exchange

Trinam wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.
And the eidolon is a Dire bat/dragon/MLP:FIM Pegasus mix. That settles everything.

Oh dear god...

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Mergy wrote:

As someone currently playing an alchemist, yes, you can go balls to the wall offence and do serious damage. However, a lot of your feat choices have scrapped important defensive feats like Iron Will (to make up for the poor will save and likely middling wisdom score), Toughness (to make up for the d8 hit dice in melee), and unless you include a fighter or barbarian dip you're still in light armour.

Your Alchemonk is ridiculously MAD. To achieve that 18 strength with a 20-point-buy would give other stats like this:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 12 (+1), Con 14 (+2), Int 14 (+2), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 7 (-2)

Dex 12 in light or no armour? Ouch. Even with mutagen up we've only got an AC of 17, although it does admittedly jump up to 21 with shield. The will save is only middling, and while helped by the 2 levels of monk there is definite room for Iron Will in there. Unfortunately, I think we need the 14 con because we're working with a d8 hit die in melee, although I suppose we could drop it to 12 and try our luck. We need a high Intellect to be able to use the alchemist class skills, although once again we could drop it to 12 and minimize that aspect. Doing that we could go:

Str 18 (+4), Dex 14 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 12 (+1), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 7 (-2)

Yes, offensively deadly. Yes you can pounce and kill things. You're gonna get dogpiled and die though.

That said, alchemical allocation is the greatest extract of all time. It's gonna stop my character from buying an Amulet of Mighty Fists until he can afford the 20,000gp Holy one.

I did assume one would buy 16 points, and use a racial stat to hit 18 Str. If you go human, you can do that and grab Iron Will :D A level of master chymist will go a long way though.

I do think we can place the Alchemist into the high tiers. I still wouldn't want to be so offensively deadly that all enemies turn around and start dog-piling me. My build so far has been an Elf Alchemist (for flavour as well as longsword proficiency in the early levels)

1 Medium Armour Proficiency
2 Feral Mutagen
3 Iron Will

The rest of the progression is

4 Infusion +1 str
5 Improved Unarmed Strike
6 Infuse Mutagen
7 Improved Iron Will
8 Enhance Potion +1 str
9 Toughness
10 Combine Extracts
11 Extra Discovery: Extend Potion
12 Greater Mutagen +1 cha

I just look at all my abilities, and I know my offence is top-notch without having to put a lot of feats into it. On the other hand, my will save is poor, my health is lower than a fighters, and I don't want to take a level of fighter just to improve my AC because I want to keep my extract progression going.

This got a little tangenty, but my main point was that if you make a character that focuses this much on offence there is a good chance you'll have ridiculous overkill and that you've sacrificed your chance at defensive feats.


8 people marked this as a favorite.
Edgar Lamoureux wrote:
Trinam wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.
And the eidolon is a Dire bat/dragon/MLP:FIM Pegasus mix. That settles everything.
Oh dear god...

Nothing makes GM's cry more then when a group actually combines into Voltron.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trinam wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.
And the eidolon is a Dire bat/dragon/MLP:FIM Pegasus mix. That settles everything.

Leadership feat to get a synthesist summoner would end a lot of those arguments that go "I TARGET THE BAT".


Mergy wrote:
Trinam wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
It occurs to me AM BARBARIAN needs to find a synthesist summoner and give him hard noogies until he takes the mount evolution.
And the eidolon is a Dire bat/dragon/MLP:FIM Pegasus mix. That settles everything.
Leadership feat to get a synthesist summoner would end a lot of those arguments that go "I TARGET THE BAT".

That was actually the plan already. That 900ft charge radius was 40ft move, haste, and 19 points in fly faster. Wait, 18 and 860 charge.

Marathon Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Once we get Pounce with this guy, we just take the last 8 levels in Master Chymist.

This gives us a full BAB progression for 8 levels, lets him Enlarge when drinking the mutagen, get multiple mutagens, do 1d8 pts of damage with the claws base (2d6 when enlarged). Bite will be 3d6. Let's him grab Dual Mind to shore up Will even more. Adds 4 damage per strike due to Brutality.

Unfortunately, Sneak Attack will stagnate unless your GM lets Bomb Thrower modify that instead, which while fairly logical, makes them extremely powerful.

Granted, if we stick with plain Alchemist with one level of Master Chymist (for all those delicious mutagens and BAB bump)...we could have the following:

pounce, grab, rake (!!!), and Fly (120 good). Remember, when grappled you lose your dex bonus to AC. So sneak attack away, with your Rake.

Or pounce, rend, fly 120 good, blindsense.

Or pounce, grab, rake, rend. That's a ton of damage, and Rend will gain the benefits of Power Attack's 1-1/2.

Or pounce, rake, constrict, grab.

Lots of versatility there, since you get to choose which abilities.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mergy, my main worries defensively are Saves. A human can get Iron Will. Or better yet, a half elf can get Dual Minded AND Iron Will. This guy at level 12 would have an +8 Will save with this half-elf.

AC is simple enough. At level 5, take a level of fighter then put on Full Plate. That with Mutagen is already 21, which is nice. With Shield, that's 25. Getting good. -2 from Enlarge person, so back to 23. We could grab Barkskin. Or better yet, use Blur / Displacement.

We "only" need 16 Int to use all of our extracts out of mutagen. Once we have an item to get us up to 18 Int, we're golden.

Pre-racial
Str 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Plus, dumping Cha makes *sense* for this mad rager who can barely contain himself :D

We have that floating feat at 1st level, so could put it in Toughness or Iron Will. Eventually, we'll be getting a bonus to Dex as well from Mutagen. Or Con.

Even at level 1, with uh...Studded leather...we'll have a base AC of 14. With Shield, that's 18. That's really good. Won't always have Shield up, but you can when it is necessary.

edit: I'll post a "canonical" version of this guy later. Monk 1, Fighter 1, Alchemist 10.


I am both frightened and awed by this thread.

Marathon Voter 2013

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Kryzbyn wrote:
I am both frightened and awed by this thread.

Mission accomplished!

Shadow Lodge Dedicated Voter 2014

Potion of Greater Magic Fang +5

- I think this may be problematic to rely on. You can't make potions above your level, so you're not talking about walking into the shop and picking up any old potion, you need to find one made by merlin or the equivalent thereof himself. Many campaigns don't even have 20th level casters lying around, much less ones that are going to hand out their magics to your low level kiester.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:

Potion of Greater Magic Fang +5

- I think this may be problematic to rely on. You can't make potions above your level, so you're not talking about walking into the shop and picking up any old potion, you need to find one made by merlin or the equivalent thereof himself. Many campaigns don't even have 20th level casters lying around, much less ones that are going to hand out their magics to your low level kiester.

I did mention that this is theoretical, so I assumed it's around.

But yes, that part is not a given. A high bonus potion though? Anything above 3 will work, and should be available. At level 18, when you have a CL of 16, you can drink the potion, any potion of greater magical fang, with a caster level of 16, due to Enhance Potion. And it's not like this build is discovery starved at all. You literally just need Feral Mutagen, Greater, and Grand mutagen. The rest are open.

You could also wish for it, I suppose.

Remember to put the potion in an adamantine vial, and hide it away in a place that it can't be sundered or stolen :)

If you can buy some scrolls of it, use Arcane Mark and Instant Summons on it. Expensive? Yes. But highly worth it for how important that potion is to you.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm forced to withdraw the majority of my complaints. I still have one warning: Don't be the player who can out-damage and out-versatile the rest of the party. If you make this character, you will probably get some ill will from the rest of the party and the DM.


Mergy wrote:
I'm forced to withdraw the majority of my complaints. I still have one warning: Don't be the player who can out-damage and out-versatile the rest of the party. If you make this character, you will probably get some ill will from the rest of the party and the DM.

But what if eveyone else is doing it too?

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mergy wrote:
I'm forced to withdraw the majority of my complaints. I still have one warning: Don't be the player who can out-damage and out-versatile the rest of the party. If you make this character, you will probably get some ill will from the rest of the party and the DM.

No worries! I only focused on the offensive side of this guy in the original post.

The beauty / terror of this build is that it's only marginally feat intensive, and the caster level actually doesn't matter too much, so you can afford multiple dips. It can have high AC, a high miss chance, and OK saves. At level 15, you can even combine an extract of Shield and Displacement into a 5th level extract.

You'll probably have Mithral Full Plate, giving +3 Dex bonus to AC. So that's 22 base AC. Greater Mutagen will give you +4 to it. Enlarge will give you -2. Shield will give +4. That's already 28 AC, without any magic items. Also, you'll have 50% miss chance.

Or, combine Shield and Barkskin! Shield will give +4 AC, and Barkskin will give +5. So that's 33 AC. Then quaff that Displacement for 50% miss chance. The shield / barkskin combo lasts for minutes per level, so at this point, you could conceivably do it before combat. First round of combat? Quaff displacement and head into battle. We have 4 4th level extracts per day, so we can easily get 33 AC for all the combats of a normal day.

So yea...offensive beast which is quite possibly the second best damage dealer in the game, and very strong anti-martial defenses. Just need to buff up Will save and you're golden.

But I will reiterate your point: this will marginalize almost everyone else in the group. Don't do it.

...unless everyone else is doing it, in which case enjoy fighting multiple tarrasques at once.

The Exchange

TarkXT wrote:
Mergy wrote:
I'm forced to withdraw the majority of my complaints. I still have one warning: Don't be the player who can out-damage and out-versatile the rest of the party. If you make this character, you will probably get some ill will from the rest of the party and the DM.
But what if eveyone else is doing it too?

Now I'm picturing a team of four of these guys, tearing through anything that isn't more than a charge distance away.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Hey cheapy. I think you've found the 3rd member of my hypothetical 'screw castys' team. Congrats.

Marathon Voter 2013

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Whoo.

Just a note: this guy is amazing even without Feral Combat Training and Dragon Style. That just lets us claw people even harder, leveraging our huge Strength. Also gives us the awesome mobility of Dragon Style.

Another possible path is Master Chymist for Draconic Mutagen. This would have no levels of monk or fighter, and would be 10 Alchemist (for Pounce-agens) / 10 Master Chymist.

We aren't really going for the stuff from Draconic Mutagen, we just want the breath weapon. Make it acid.

Then take this lovely feat.

Noxious Bite wrote:

Prerequisites: Acid breath weapon, bite attack.

Benefit: Your bite attack deals 1 point of acid damage in addition to its normal damage. Living creatures you bite must make a Fortitude save (DC equal your breath weapon's DC) or be nauseated for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round).

Congrats, you are now tearing people to shreds, and forcing Fort saves every time you bite, or else they are Nauseated. When you are Hasted, you could open with a Bite. If they make their save, your extra attack should be a Bite to force another save. If they fail, go with three claws.

Casty go bye-bye.

If anyone wants to ensure this isn't possible in your game, I'd recommend making Cruel Anatomist replace Swift Poisoning. It won't get around the pouncing with 3 or 4 attacks at your full BAB, but at least they can't go Greater Invis and always be sneak attacking.

Marathon Voter 2013

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huh.

I'm not sure if alchemists are proficient with their feral mutagen attacks, RAW.

That's kind of awkward.

The Exchange

Never really thought about it, but that does bring up quite a good point. I would say that they are, but technically speakin, I don't think they are.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Even if that is the case, be a Changeling with the Adopted Trait to pick up Toothy. Your race now has claws and a bite attack, so you are proficient with them.

RAI be damned!


Also grab the Magical knack trait for a +2 caster level on your extracts. It really helps with the multiclassing.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just a note, a barebones base build is up here. It's not complete and I'm not sure if it's as optimized as it can be. There is an alternative build with no multiclassing, but it doesn't actually "work" until level 13.


Cheapy wrote:
Just a note, a barebones base build is up here. It's not complete and I'm not sure if it's as optimized as it can be. There is an alternative build with no multiclassing, but it doesn't actually "work" until level 13.

Perhaps the build should be posted in the DPR olympic thread for comparisons...

It would be nice to see a L10 build.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kerobelis wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Just a note, a barebones base build is up here. It's not complete and I'm not sure if it's as optimized as it can be. There is an alternative build with no multiclassing, but it doesn't actually "work" until level 13.

Perhaps the build should be posted in the DPR olympic thread for comparisons...

It would be nice to see a L10 build.

Doesn't really come together until level 13 with the version in the Google docs. The one in the first post doesn't come together until level 12.

But just a plain old Beastmorph / Vivisectionist without dragon style will still work fine.

Liberty's Edge

Cheapy, you said this is the second highest damaging build. What's higher?


ShadowcatX wrote:
Cheapy, you said this is the second highest damaging build. What's higher?

BARBARIAN AM ALWAYS WINNER.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
Cheapy, you said this is the second highest damaging build. What's higher?

I also said "probably". I'm still doing the numbers, but at 5th level, when sneak attacking, this guy will one round KO the average CR 5 critter.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Although I wouldn't doubt it if this girl could take out AM BARBARIAN at lower levels.


Cheapy wrote:
Although I wouldn't doubt it if this girl could take out AM BARBARIAN at lower levels.

Theoretically possible. AM doesn't get a super mount until 7th, or pounce until 10th. The damage of RAGE and RAGELANCE are certainly lower than the RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I should do calculations on that at some point.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

DPR of all 4 combinations (PA, SA) at level 5 has been done. When we get SA, it assumes it is from flanking. Later, it will be from being invisible.

In the best situation (PA, SA from Flanking), she's doing a cool 62.8575 DPR.

In the worst situation (not PAing, no SA and thus no flanking), she's doing a fine 32.05125 DPR.

The fact that just PAing, SA, and flanking almost doubles the DPR makes me think I may have done something wrong.

I also had a level 5 fighter with a greatsword for comparison.

She does over 40 more DPR than the fighter, when both are in their best situations. Her worst situation does 10 more than the fighters best.

These numbers do not include a potion of greater magic fang, since she does not have Alchemical Allocation yet.

I plan to crunch the numbers at 13th, and 20th level.

The Exchange

No, it looks correct. I've fooled around with one of these, and they do incredible damage.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I did the math for this chick without mutagen up. I'm not 100% on the damage dice of the bite attack (need to grab OoG), so I assumed 1d4.

Her DPR without the mutagen up and no SA, while PAing, is 1 less than the fighter in his best situation.

The Exchange

Natural attacks are just that bada$$, Cheapy.


Cheapy wrote:
Kerobelis wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Just a note, a barebones base build is up here. It's not complete and I'm not sure if it's as optimized as it can be. There is an alternative build with no multiclassing, but it doesn't actually "work" until level 13.

Perhaps the build should be posted in the DPR olympic thread for comparisons...

It would be nice to see a L10 build.

Doesn't really come together until level 13 with the version in the Google docs. The one in the first post doesn't come together until level 12.

But just a plain old Beastmorph / Vivisectionist without dragon style will still work fine.

The DPR thread provides resonable restictions to make comparisons worthwhile (a sort of baseline). Hence you can then make your comparisons vs. Archer fighters, etc. All I am seeing is a bunch of data that makes it hard to compare.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm done on this for now. Need to get some work done.

The link again.

And yes. Yes they are. I really want to play a half-orc shapeshifter ranger now. Once they get Instant Enemy and Pearls of Power (hell yes they'd be taking Craft Wondrous Item), it's game over.

I'll compare it to an archer fighter later. I chose greatsword fighter here because that's the canonical guy you play for doing a ton of damage in melee.

I'm a bit more interested in comparing it to an archer samurai though. Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and Challenge could add up pretty nicely. 1d8+2(str)+1(enhancement)+4(deadly aim)+5(challenge)=1d8+12 per arrow. That could eclipse this. Two attacks with something like +7 to hit ... OK, it probably won't beat this.

If anyone wants to crunch that data at level 5, lemme know the results for the various combinations of Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim.

Liberty's Edge

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I also read these threads with Shock & Awe. Shock that Pathfinder in such a short space of time has become as broken as any d20 previous, and Awe that so many people pat Paizo on the back for doing exactly what many dreaded would happen once the 'splat books' started coming out after the excellent Core Rule book. Still by the 7th or 8th printings of each book perhaps sanity will return to the game.

I love Paizo for their creativity (meaning Adventure Paths & Settings), but PLEASE step away from the Rules now before completely and irreversibly damaging your wonderful game. I know things are getting bad when I find myself thinking - 3.5e wasn't that bad on reflection...

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