Is this weapon considerd a pole arm weapon for a phalanx dwarven fighter
Dwarves of Golarion wrote: This exotic weapon is a 10-foot-long, heavy metal chain weighted at the end by a round ball of solid iron about the size of a large fist. So no. It is pretty blatantly not a polearm or spear.
How's this for racial confusion?
A guy in the group I GM just built a half-elf bard. He took the Ancestral Arms trait - with a Dorn-Dergar! I hope he comes up with a good back story.
EDIT: My hope exceeds my expectation. He wanted the weapon because of its ability to be switched between adjacent and reach.
So what is his back story to take that?
I was abandoned at birth by my noble elven father when he discovered that I was actually the child of a human his wife was having an affair with. They sent me and one of their servants to leave the wooded realm and live in a hamlet at the foot of the nearby mountains- far enough to avoid the embarrassment yet near enough to over watch me. Unfortunately, the hamlet was attacked by bugbears and destroyed. My caretaker hid me in a latrine (to disguise my scent) and I was able to survive while everyone else was taken away or killed.
The next day, a dwarven trader from the nearby mountain holds arrived to find the town full of corpses and on fire. Having already been drinking, the sight of the dead upturned even his dwarven constitution and he rushed to the latrine. After relieving his sickness, he found me and brought me back to his forge in the dwarven lands. However, life is not easy for an orphan, let alone a half elf among dwarves. I was constantly picked on by the other young dwarves- for having no bloodline to claim, for having obvious elven features, for being too tall... Rather than become bitter, I instead decided that I would become a better dwarf than all of them and immersed myself into the study of dwarven tradition. It was in these studies that I learned the way of that most venerable dwarven weapon, the Dorn-Dergar.
How's that?
Lurk3r wrote: I was abandoned at birth by my noble elven father when he discovered that I was actually the child of a human his wife was having an affair with. They sent me and one of their servants to leave the wooded realm and live in a hamlet at the foot of the nearby mountains- far enough to avoid the embarrassment yet near enough to over watch me. Unfortunately, the hamlet was attacked by bugbears and destroyed. My caretaker hid me in a latrine (to disguise my scent) and I was able to survive while everyone else was taken away or killed.
The next day, a dwarven trader from the nearby mountain holds arrived to find the town full of corpses and on fire. Having already been drinking, the sight of the dead upturned even his dwarven constitution and he rushed to the latrine. After relieving his sickness, he found me and brought me back to his forge in the dwarven lands. However, life is not easy for an orphan, let alone a half elf among dwarves. I was constantly picked on by the other young dwarves- for having no bloodline to claim, for having obvious elven features, for being too tall... Rather than become bitter, I instead decided that I would become a better dwarf than all of them and immersed myself into the study of dwarven tradition. It was in these studies that I learned the way of that most venerable dwarven weapon, the Dorn-Dergar.
How's that?
I like it. It's a shame you never got rid of that smell!
Vuvu wrote: Lurk3r wrote: I was abandoned at birth by my noble elven father when he discovered that I was actually the child of a human his wife was having an affair with. They sent me and one of their servants to leave the wooded realm and live in a hamlet at the foot of the nearby mountains- far enough to avoid the embarrassment yet near enough to over watch me. Unfortunately, the hamlet was attacked by bugbears and destroyed. My caretaker hid me in a latrine (to disguise my scent) and I was able to survive while everyone else was taken away or killed.
The next day, a dwarven trader from the nearby mountain holds arrived to find the town full of corpses and on fire. Having already been drinking, the sight of the dead upturned even his dwarven constitution and he rushed to the latrine. After relieving his sickness, he found me and brought me back to his forge in the dwarven lands. However, life is not easy for an orphan, let alone a half elf among dwarves. I was constantly picked on by the other young dwarves- for having no bloodline to claim, for having obvious elven features, for being too tall... Rather than become bitter, I instead decided that I would become a better dwarf than all of them and immersed myself into the study of dwarven tradition. It was in these studies that I learned the way of that most venerable dwarven weapon, the Dorn-Dergar.
How's that?
I like it. It's a shame you never got rid of that smell! Dwarves, man. Nobody ever noticed...
^_^
The dorn-dergar always struck me as a cool weapon. It's a nice change of pace from the normal axes and hammers (double-ball and chain FTW). But I've always wondered how exactly it's wielded.
As a melee weapon it's as simple as "punching" the enemy with one of the steal balls. As a reach weapon, it's just a fancy ball and chain, launch one ball at the enemy. But if you had the "Dorn-Dergar Master" feat, you can wield it one-handed. I'm guessing it would probably look something like the orc boss from "King of Dragons" (Go to 1:11 and watch the boss battle to see what I mean):
King of Dragons
Also, if it's a pair of steel balls on a chain, shouldn't it be listed as a double weapon?
TheDisgaean wrote: The dorn-dergar always struck me as a cool weapon. It's a nice change of pace from the normal axes and hammers (double-ball and chain FTW). But I've always wondered how exactly it's wielded.
As a melee weapon it's as simple as "punching" the enemy with one of the steal balls. As a reach weapon, it's just a fancy ball and chain, launch one ball at the enemy. But if you had the "Dorn-Dergar Master" feat, you can wield it one-handed. I'm guessing it would probably look something like the orc boss from "King of Dragons" (Go to 1:11 and watch the boss battle to see what I mean):
King of Dragons
Also, if it's a pair of steel balls on a chain, shouldn't it be listed as a double weapon?
The weapon is NOT a PAIR of steel balls on a chain, it's a single ball with a long chain. See Chain-flail, Dwarven. Notice that it is wielded as such: This exotic weapon is a 10-foot-long, heavy metal chain weighted at the end by A round ball of solid iron about the size of a large fist. By adjusting the slack of the chain, the weapon can be used either with or without reach.
ub3r_n3rd wrote: TheDisgaean wrote: The dorn-dergar always struck me as a cool weapon. It's a nice change of pace from the normal axes and hammers (double-ball and chain FTW). But I've always wondered how exactly it's wielded.
As a melee weapon it's as simple as "punching" the enemy with one of the steal balls. As a reach weapon, it's just a fancy ball and chain, launch one ball at the enemy. But if you had the "Dorn-Dergar Master" feat, you can wield it one-handed. I'm guessing it would probably look something like the orc boss from "King of Dragons" (Go to 1:11 and watch the boss battle to see what I mean):
King of Dragons
Also, if it's a pair of steel balls on a chain, shouldn't it be listed as a double weapon?
The weapon is NOT a PAIR of steel balls on a chain, it's a single ball with a long chain. See Chain-flail, Dwarven. Notice that it is wielded as such: This exotic weapon is a 10-foot-long, heavy metal chain weighted at the end by A round ball of solid iron about the size of a large fist. By adjusting the slack of the chain, the weapon can be used either with or without reach. Ahhh, I see. Bloody dyslexia. In that case, it makes sense now.
Also note that, with the recent FAQ on the matter, a 2-h weapon wielded in one hand for any reason (such as Dorn Derger with DD Master feat) will still get 1.5x Power Attack and, by extension, 1.5x Str bonus.
Do you have a link for that FAQ?
If it says what you say it does, then it certainly answers in a positive way the Earthbreaker/Klar question.
I too would be interested to a link for this FAQ. I hadn't realized there had been a ruling on this. It makes a big difference for Earthbreakers and Lances.
look at the top of the this webpage click next to shoping cart click FAQ/HELP and then on next page there a box labeled More FAQs in there use will see where they update each book, or topic. it will tell when the last time that FAQ was updated. but for the actual one you are looking for it is under core. then in the feat and skill section.
It IS a cool weapon, but very feat intensive to use to full effect.
I think it's Kill Bill 2 that has a chick using the equivalent of a Dorn Derger. She essentially kicks the ball in the direction she wants.
Granted, that thing also had moving blades as well, which might make for an interesting concept: swappable heads for the DD to allow for bludgeoning/slashing/piercing damage :) Not too feasible if your kicking that ball around...
That's actually an eastern weapon in Pathfinder (I think).
It's a meteor hammer.
http://archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Meteor%20 hammer
Major_Blackhart wrote: That's actually an eastern weapon in Pathfinder (I think).
It's a meteor hammer.
http://archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Meteor%20 hammer
IMO, they are the same weapon.
KainPen wrote: look at the top of the this webpage click next to shoping cart click FAQ/HELP and then on next page there a box labeled More FAQs in there use will see where they update each book, or topic. it will tell when the last time that FAQ was updated. but for the actual one you are looking for it is under core. then in the feat and skill section. Thanks, I wasn't sure under what section it was placed.
The ruling definitely applies to lances, though the way its asked and the answer leave a little bit to be desired to understand if it would apply to the Earthbreaker since the question was asked about lances while mounted.
yeah alot of people said the same thing about the answer. It was actual the bastard sword and I think over hand chop not lance, brough up the quest in the fourms. the the question was then reword, to include lance then we got that answer. no real explation. But I think the answer supposed to mean that extra damage is based on the weapon type not the number of hands actual used on it. Thus a Lance is listed as two-handed weapon thus getting the bonus damage even as if used as one handed weapon while mounted. Honestly the answer does not include the str mod just power attack. So maybe both get increased maybe only one does. Lol there still no answer regarding the bastard sword. The only answer we can get from this that bastard sword does not get the bonus to power attack even if used as martial two-handed weapon. as it listed as a 1 handed Ex weapon.
Claxon here is the orginal post in which the FAQ was answerd last week
as you can see it lance not the main point of focus of the subject.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pr59&page=2?Power-Attack-and-Two-Handed-We apons-Used-in#92
PRD wrote: Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands. When wielding a weapon (except for a light weapon) in two hands for any reason, you get 1.5x str bonus to damage. This covers one-handed weapons wielded in two hands as well as two-handed weapons wielded as per normal in two hands.
PRD wrote: Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. A) Two-Handed weapons (by default) require two weapons to wield.
B) Two-handed weapons (by default) get 1.5x Str bonus to damage.
Most abilities that alter handedness of a 2-h weapon only affect A. Very few (such as Jotungrip) have explicit changes that also affect B. So if your ability doesn't say it changes rule B, it remains in effect and two-handed weapons wielded exceptionally in one hand via an ability that doesn't specify calculating Str bonus damage as if it were a one-handed weapon will still get 1.5x Str bonus to damage.
So then it would appear:
1) 1 handed weapons (exclduing light weapons) used in both hands would get 1.5 strength to damage as well as power attack version as if a 2 handed weapon?
2) 2 handed weapon always get 1.5 strength and 2 handed power attack damage, unless wielded 1 handed AND the ability that allows for wielding with 1 hand specifically changes the way in which the weapon functions, such as Jotungrip?
that seem to be the jist of it. So dispite being a two handed martial weapon as bastard sword is listed as 1 handed weapon. when you use it with one-handed it you don't get the 1.5 that lance or dwarven Dorn degar gets. Also over hand chop now seems to apply to lance and dwarven dorn degar also as all it requires is the weapon be a 2nd handed weapon not being wielding with two hands.
Yeah. It isn't just the extra hand on the weapon that contributes the damage. A larger weapon is more massive, even when wielded in only one hand. If you had a hypothetical ability to wield a greatsword in one hand, without the Jotungrip 1-h category exception, your strength counts more towards its damage than just wielding a longsword or even a bastard sword in one hand normally. You can "fake it" by wielding the longsword/bastard sword/other 1-h weapon in two hands, but it's still a less massive weapon and that's really what the two-handed fighter is all about... a massive weapon, not just a two-handed one.
A massive weapon such as a quarterstaff, but not a morningstar or bastardsword. Got to love logic. But eh, that's why I don't play PFS and similar campaigns - it's all RAW and rarely sensible.
There's nothing in the FAQ to suggest that you also get 1.5 Str on a Dorn Dergar wielded in one hand.
The default rule is for Str bonus on melee attacks. Another rule amends that to 1.5 Str for two-handed weapons wielded in two hands. No go, not without another FAQ at least. The power attack bonus is crazy enough as it is (assuming that applies, since it is wielded "as a one-handed weapon").
Makarion wrote: A massive weapon such as a quarterstaff, but not a morningstar or bastardsword. Got to love logic. But eh, that's why I don't play PFS and similar campaigns - it's all RAW and rarely sensible. yeah could make for some intresting magus builds with quaterstaff master feat. becuase that turns it in to one handed weapon also. they could use a shield magic quater staff like the staff of dark flame get decent damage and still have spells to cast from it.
Majuba wrote: There's nothing in the FAQ to suggest that you also get 1.5 Str on a Dorn Dergar wielded in one hand.
The default rule is for Str bonus on melee attacks. Another rule amends that to 1.5 Str for two-handed weapons wielded in two hands. No go, not without another FAQ at least. The power attack bonus is crazy enough as it is (assuming that applies, since it is wielded "as a one-handed weapon").
Did you even bother reading what I posted? If not, go back and read it (it's 7 posts up from here). If you want to challenge it, challenge what I actually wrote instead of bringing up the FAQ as a strawman.
Hey Kazaan,
I will argue against what you said. I think that the rules are clearly spelled out. Let's show the entire section regarding strength bonuses for damage:
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Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
The first paragraph states that the strength bonus is equal to the strength modifier of the attacker. This is the default method of calculating damage attributed by strength.
The last paragraph states the attacker will receive a 1-1/2 times strength bonus when wielding a weapon two-handed. Note that it does not say 'when wielding a two-handed weapon'. This exception to the default method only applies to weapons used in two hands. A two-handed weapon only qualify for this when it is wielded using two hands. Using a one-handed dorn-dergar will not qualify.
As a side note, the second paragraph states that off-hand damage is at 1/2 strength damage, which means that if you wield a dorn-dergar in the off-hand, the strength bonus is halved.
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I do want to say that I think Paizo's stance on allowing 1-1/2 damage for two-handed weapons wielded one-handed is a huge disappointment. Even though there are only a few cases where a player can take advantage of it, I think they really misstepped. It has also spawned a number of posts where people are trying to worm their way into figuring out any way that abilities and feats for two-handed weapons can be applied to two-handed weapons wielded in one hand.
Again:
PRD wrote: Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon. Source Weapons>Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed melee weapons.
1.5x Str bonus to damage for melee attacks made with such a weapon (weapons in the 2-h category). It's right there in black and a sort of off-white, yellowish, parchment-looking tone.
Additionally, based on how multipliers combine in Pathfinder, a 2-h weapon wielded in the off-hand would deal 1x Str bonus. When you have two or more multipliers acting in conjunction, you take one multiplier in full, then subtract 1 from all remaining multipliers before adding. For example, 2x + 2x = 2x + (1x) = 3x. So for combining the 1.5x factor from 2-h weapons and the 0.5x factor from off-hand attacks, you get 1.5x + (1 - 0.5x) = 1.5x - 0.5x = 1.0x.
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TheDisgaean wrote: The dorn-dergar always struck me as a cool weapon. It's a nice change of pace from the normal axes and hammers (double-ball and chain FTW). But I've always wondered how exactly it's wielded.
As a melee weapon it's as simple as "punching" the enemy with one of the steal balls. As a reach weapon, it's just a fancy ball and chain, launch one ball at the enemy. But if you had the "Dorn-Dergar Master" feat, you can wield it one-handed. I'm guessing it would probably look something like the orc boss from "King of Dragons" (Go to 1:11 and watch the boss battle to see what I mean):
King of Dragons
Also, if it's a pair of steel balls on a chain, shouldn't it be listed as a double weapon?
Glad you like it! That was one of my contributions. I haven't had a chance to make my dorn-dergar master character yet, though... *sniff*
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