Ki Mystic stoopid amount of Ki?


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

The Ki Mystic archetype does not modify or replace a monk's Ki Pool class feature, and both Ki Pool and Ki Mystic features say you gain a Ki Pool.

So...will a Ki Mystic monk have two pools of Ki points (totaling up to, in the case of a 4th-level Ki Mystic, (WISx2)+2+(monk/2)?


I... believe so now that I look at it.

I know which Monk Archtype I want to try out next.

EDIT: I just read it again, and no such luck man. The fact that the Ki Pool's formula increases at 4th strongly implies it replaces the 4th level ki pool.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As written, the class gains both features, as nothing states it replaces Ki Pool.

That cannot possibly be the intent however.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

I... believe so now that I look at it.

I know which Monk Archtype I want to try out next.

EDIT: I just read it again, and no such luck man. The fact that the Ki Pool's formula increases at 4th strongly implies it replaces the 4th level ki pool.

It may imply but not strongly enough. I agree with TOZ you get both. Where I disagree is that I think it WAS intended. It's not outrageous, this archetype just seldom runs out of points. He gives up an awful lot of defensive skills in return for it.

Regular Monks can run through points pretty quick, I've played this archetype and think it's balanced. It's very strong with some select Quingong swaps.


I am pretty sure it replaces the number of ki in the pool, and give a new use of ki.

Otherwise wouldnt the ki pool (if combining both be more like:
monk level + 2 + WIS? Very few abilities gives you a bonus from a stat twice.

I see the wording is a bit open to interpretation. But I think it was intended to basically add 2 ki to the pool, and give some nice new ki uses.

Liberty's Edge

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

By the wording alone, my conclusion is that a Ki Mystic monk has a second pool of Ki which he uses exclusively for Knowledge checks. The wording is rotten, but a "Ki Mystic" class feature granting a "pool of ki" is not, at least in this game, identical to a "Ki Pool" class feature (and hence it is in addition to other exactly-named Ki Pools).

Guide-style ratings:

1) If Mystic pool is a replacement ... * (Ki that only powers Knowledge checks? Wow...uh, no.)
2) If Mystic pool is in addition, but only powers Knowledge checks ... *** (forfeits little to add occasional Knowledge check successes).
3) If Mystic pool is a replacement; and Ki works as previous + Knowledge ... *** (you have +2 Ki).
4) If Mystic pool is in addition, and Ki in both can do anything ... ***** (free Ki attacks per turn seldom run out)


Mike Schneider wrote:

By the wording alone, my conclusion is that a Ki Mystic monk has a second pool of Ki which he uses exclusively for Knowledge checks. The wording is rotten, but a "Ki Mystic" class feature granting a "pool of ki" is not, at least in this game, identical to a "Ki Pool" class feature (and hence it is in addition to other exactly-named Ki Pools).

Guide-style ratings:

1) If Mystic pool is a replacement ... * (Ki that only powers Knowledge checks? Wow...uh, no.)
2) If Mystic pool is in addition, but only powers Knowledge checks ... *** (forfeits little to add occasional Knowledge check successes).
3) If Mystic pool is a replacement; and Ki works as previous + Knowledge ... *** (you have +2 Ki).
4) If Mystic pool is in addition, and Ki in both can do anything ... ***** (free Ki attacks per turn seldom run out)

I interpreted it as #3 my DM read it as #4, I went with his interpretation.

I thought it was going to be huge, it's not. You are still limited to a single swift action burn per round. All it really allows is less "is this worth a ki point" decisions.


i went with #3 myself, and haven't even brought this rules snafu to my DMs attention despite knowing about it. It just seems cheatyface. ki for check bonuses and +2 ki is dang good compared to +2 vs enchantment.

I must point out the ki powers ALL ability and skill checks. not just knowledge. ABILITY CHECKS, something very hard to buff.

edit:drunk

Liberty's Edge

My personal preference is actually #2 -- you have a lot of extra Ki, but it only powers knowledge checks...of which monks don't get much in the way og class skills -- so they'll have to multicast wizard to get them all, and not dump their INT so much that they can't actually get points into all of them.


Mike Schneider wrote:
My personal preference is actually #2 -- you have a lot of extra Ki, but it only powers knowledge checks...of which monks don't get much in the way og class skills -- so they'll have to multicast wizard to get them all, and not dump their INT so much that they can't actually get points into all of them.

While the knowledge checks are nice, they only really come in to play if your using Kirin Style (which is itself a swift action, preventing the ki point use). Multiclassing isn't really needed, unless you are dying to get the class skill bonus. The chances are pretty good you'll be playing with a skill monkey like a wizard or bard ( an archaeologist in my case ) so you're not gonna need to really be the know it all of the group. If your primarily a wizard taking a 3 level dip in Ki Mystic is a heavy tradeoff. A one level dip in Abjurer is not a bad monk dip though.

It's worth noting that if you've never played a monk, ki disappears quickly. My 12th level Core/Quingong monk only has 10 points in his pool, with a WIS of 18. I can run through all my ki points in a single combat if I use any 2 or 3 point burns.

The Ki Mystic gets I believe 3 new features that burn 2 ki points per usage. A doubled pool is actually almost necessary. Like I said above I thought this would be huge, it's not. I routinely run low on points with the Barkskin substitution and the save reroll feature. When I add in the bonus flurry attack and the speed/ acrobatics boost and I'm tapped in 2 combats. This monk is lvl 7 with a 17 WIS. His pool with interpretation #4 is at 14 points. When he equals my lvl 12 monk he'll be at 22 points. That's a little less than Twice his level. It'll actually be more since I'll get a headband ( which my core monk can't afford). This guy will eventually take the Dimensional maneuver feats and rely heavily on Abundant Step.

Abundant Step looks cool on paper. It's just to expensive in practice to be anything more than a "save my ass in an emergency" ability for a regular monk. The Dimensional Feat tree is neat, but without a very large ki pool a poor feat buy.

What I'm saying is that without the interpretation of a doubled pool, this is a poor archetype, you give up most of your passive defensive powers, for active resource burning abilities. After having played it I would not play it again without the doubled pool. What you get is not worth what you lose without a "Stoopid amount of Ki".


Just adding my voice to common belief that the intent seems obvious--that the intent was to replace Still Mind with: Early access to ki, that gives you an additional two points to your ki pool at later levels (like extra ki), an additional ki ability of a +4 bonus to skill and ability checks for 1 ki point, and the additional +2 to all knowledge checks (as long as 1 ki point remains in the pool).

That alone is a decent replacement for still mind. I'm ok with that. That said - Good Desna! they're stingy with the ki points.


So, I will give you herolab's take on it, which I believe was actually the intention in the first place for this archetype:

When you make a ki mystic in herolab, it assumes that the ki mystic's ability replaces your ki pool AND your normal uses for ki points, in addition to replacing still mind. In other words, a ki mystic gets all the stuff it says in ki mystic, but does NOT get any additional ki points at 4th level, does not get still mind, and cannot use ki for AC, bonus movement or bonus flurry attacks.

In other words, the ki mystic's ability should have said that it replaces still mind and ki pool, including all the normally automatic uses for ki pool.

However, this is very annoying for two reasons. One, it's a major nerf which seems pretty unnecessary. Two, it's sloppy. According strictly to RAW, the ki mystic should get BOTH ki pools and all associated uses and abilities, and should be able to fuel the abilities of one ki pool with the ki points from another.

Basically, the writers dropped the ball on this archetype and now it's up to the individual DMs and players to do their job for them and decide how to balance it. Unless of course the RAW was the actual intention of the archetype, which seems unlikely and is crazy powerful. In which case the writers dropped the ball anyway, I guess.

That said, the paizo writers do a great job overall, and this kind of thing is to be expected now and then I suppose.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

I never expect it, I simply sigh and put up with it when it happens.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

This is murky water, because you can't apply the same ruling to all archetypes. For instance, if you read it as 'in addition to' then archetypes like the Dervish Dancer Bard or Sohei Monk don't lose some abilities, and gain quite a bit. For instance, the Dervish Dancer, as written, doesn't replace Bardic Music with Battle Dance, he simply gains the ability to enter a Battle Dance. That can be quite a powerful little addition as some of the Dervish Dancer abilities are quite powerful if he can choose to either buff his allies, or go solo.

The Sohei, for example, would gain Handle Animal, all simple and martial weapons and light armor proficiecy, and Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats. However, if you read it in the opposite, that it replaces abilities, even if it doesn't explicitly say so, then the Sohei ONLY has Handle Animal as a class skill, gains simple and martial weapon proficiency and light armor proficiency, and can ONLY select Mounted Combat feats as bonus feats.

It just comes down to what seems the most balanced. In this case, I think the 3rd option from Mike Schneider's post is probably the best.


Mike Schneider wrote:

The Ki Mystic archetype does not modify or replace a monk's Ki Pool class feature, and both Ki Pool and Ki Mystic features say you gain a Ki Pool.

So...will a Ki Mystic monk have two pools of Ki points (totaling up to, in the case of a 4th-level Ki Mystic, (WISx2)+2+(monk/2)?

This says answered in FAQ but I don't see it. Can someone help please. A local player has been posing this question a lot lately, and if there is a FAQ that would help a lot.

Thanks


Sitri wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:

The Ki Mystic archetype does not modify or replace a monk's Ki Pool class feature, and both Ki Pool and Ki Mystic features say you gain a Ki Pool.

So...will a Ki Mystic monk have two pools of Ki points (totaling up to, in the case of a 4th-level Ki Mystic, (WISx2)+2+(monk/2)?

This says answered in FAQ but I don't see it. Can someone help please. A local player has been posing this question a lot lately, and if there is a FAQ that would help a lot.

Thanks

AS they FAQers never link to FAQ (and I can't find it), I say it gains both Kis.

The loss of Still mind means you can't take Vows, so the Ki Mystic doesn't get more Ki than a Normal Monk with multiple Vows: he gets the same amount.


I am wondering if there is some more generic fact somewhere that covers it, because I can't see anything under "monk" in any of the obvious spots.

Thank for looking Starbuck II.

A guy has been asking one of my VLs for PFS about this for a while, maybe I will just send him a link to this thread and he can make a judgement call.

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