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So yes while some of the stuff you mentioned such as the books and mini's and such.. some are optional. The books are needed to play the game as much as it is used to play PFS. While some just play PFS and not any type of home game I do not consider this as part of PFS as a "Pay to Play" aspect. The scenarios as a GM and coordinator are needed and cost money, yes they do, but again as a player they do not pay for this. The coordinator, store, convention, or even PFS in general pays for this (or the GM does). Again not pay to play.While the story about time being money with the 3D model is admirable but really does not apply as it is something that is not needed in the game to be done to play the game at all. Keep in mind GM's love to make their time at the table to be extra special for both them and the players (me included as a GM). These GM's go the extra mile to do so... but it is not a requirement and as such they take that in to their own account for what they spend as it is not part of the PFS but part of their own playing style.
My perception of what you're saying is: "I feel that everyone should pay for my enjoyment, and I should not have to put any effort forth, financially or otherwise."
This line of logic is very, very offensive to me.
As I said, this game is not Free to Play, it is Pay for More. You want to play a tengu, you have to pay for the tengu relevant book or have a watermarked printout. Either way, you're paying. Essentially, if it's not in the CRB, you have to pay for it.
I'd be against boons that would cause a big difference in play experience (e.g. free powerful magic items or access to powerful races that create a two-tier system). But all of the boons I've heard of so far seem so tame that it's hard for me to get worked up about it. I've had fun playing PFS before tengu/dhampirs/tieflings/etc. were available, and I've had fun playing after.
A. By the time the Advanced Race book comes out, I will have only a handful of PFS modules to play. Sure I can put DM credit towards those new race characters, but I'm not going to be able to play them. So waiting does me no good.
First of all, they will release more scenarios. Every month. Waiting will not make you miss playing PFS. It will just make you miss playing PFS with the new content.
Secondly, this is not that different from playtesting that went on for the APG/UM/UC classes. These boons are a limited form of playtest. They are not big advantages, and not having one doesn't make your current core races invalid or underpowered. At all.
Thirdly, everything Mike said.
B. The effort to increase interest by offering the boons is backfiring in some instances because you can have been playing PFS since day 1, but if you weren't at Gen Con (or the handful of privileged cons which received boons), you're out of luck.
Sure it's that way, except, you know, when it's not. As Mike pointed out, any con, big or small, can request and recieve these boons.
In my PFS group, most of the others have attended more cons than me lately due to my finances. However, none of them has ever seen anyone receive a boon. So it is looking like the availability of boons is limited to an "old boys network" of cons and game days. That is not a situation which will help PFS grow over time.
Wow, insult much? And that "old boys network" is pretty easy to break into; attend a con/gameday/beginer's box bash near you. Not on the other side of the planet, not hundreds of miles away, just as far away as the nearest con/game day who's organizer bothers to request one. Which could include YOU, if you hosted your own Beginer's Box Bash.
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So yes while some of the stuff you mentioned such as the books and mini's and such.. some are optional. The books are needed to play the game as much as it is used to play PFS. While some just play PFS and not any type of home game I do not consider this as part of PFS as a "Pay to Play" aspect. The scenarios as a GM and coordinator are needed and cost money, yes they do, but again as a player they do not pay for this. The coordinator, store, convention, or even PFS in general pays for this (or the GM does). Again not pay to play.While the story about time being money with the 3D model is admirable but really does not apply as it is something that is not needed in the game to be done to play the game at all. Keep in mind GM's love to make their time at the table to be extra special for both them and the players (me included as a GM). These GM's go the extra mile to do so... but it is not a requirement and as such they take that in to their own account for what they spend as it is not part of the PFS but part of their own playing style.
My perception of what you're saying is: "I feel that everyone should pay for my enjoyment, and I should not have to put any effort forth, financially or otherwise."
This line of logic is very, very offensive to me.
As I said, this game is not Free to Play, it is Pay for More. You want to play a tengu, you have to pay for the tengu relevant book or have a watermarked printout. Either way, you're paying. Essentially, if it's not in the CRB, you have to pay for it.
Your perception is wrong and if I offended you it was not intended. But with that being said. I am not the kind of person that would want something without earning it. I am not an entitled type of player and if you had played with me before you would know this. But since you have not I can understand the misconception.
Please read what I am saying without the anger or perception I am out to belittle you or someone else. I am just saying not everyone is able to get the opportunities that the major cons give people. Some people live in areas where there are no conventions at all for the most part that have enough tables to get the support for boons and the like. While the ARG is coming early next year and will be able to get some of the new races and such, is it enough that people feel left out until then?
I want PFS to be the best it can be where everyone has the same opportunities that everyone else has. If that makes me have a sense of entitlement then so be it, as the same can be said for people going to the conventions then. You going there and saying it is not fair for those that do not go to get something for "nothing" is also a sense of entitlement even though you are paying for the convention itself and all the perks of THAT convention. While many or few it is still a convention you are paying for. Having been to over 20 Gen Con's myself, I know the perks that go with going to them.
Think from another point of view and see what Ia m saying and you might start to understand the dilemma I am trying to get across here without upsetting to many people. People live out in rural areas they live in states without a large following of PFS players and yet want to participate as much as they can but with today's economy are unable to. There are numerous health reasons people are unable to go to conventions and or travel far so therefor unable to travel to the cons that you or I are able to attend then. Not everyone is out to get something for nothing and you saying they are is offensive too... but I will not say that to you for one reason, I will assume you do not know full well the whole situation.
BTW I DID state that they have to buy the books and if you go back you WILL See it but in case you did not I will bold it for you. They are needed but some are optional so yes they need to buy them if they want to use something from them. I have most of the books either in PDF or hardcover or even both. I am not the kind of person that would not own almost everything I can snatch up and do at every chance. I go to cons as much as I am able to with my busy life. So please do not say I do not "pay" for what I get or earn it as well. As a GM I go to extremes to make the scenario as fun as possible for my player and often spend lots of money to do so. Again I "pay" for them too so they do not have to. What I do as a GM is "optional" though beyond what I need to run a game. I also provide my GM's that help me with the needed materials to run their perspective games so that they do not have to buy something to run for me.
So while you are very very offended by something I said, you might want to consider the entire picture before jumping to said conclusion or assumption.
Thank you! :)
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lots of stuff
I think what you are missing is that just because you live in a rural area, you are not exempt from attending conventions. Put one on in your area.
There is nothing to say you cannot organize a one or two day convention at the local gamestore, bookstore, church, school, etc. With a little planning, you can make it work. Maybe not hundreds of players, but even a few dozen works. There really is no formula of what makes a convention. Call it DeanothCon and invite everyone to attend. Charge entry if you need to, or not. Support other games, or not. As the organizer, you can do what ever you want.
Then, enter your convention in the events page of PFSOP and send Mike an email. I'm sure he would support you with boons at the minimum. If it's large enough, you might qualify for prize support. Who knows, you might even get some uber-devoted, traveling GM's to attend and support it.
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lots of stuffI think what you are missing is that just because you live in a rural area, you are not exempt from attending conventions. Put one on in your area.
There is nothing to say you cannot organize a one or two day convention at the local gamestore, bookstore, church, school, etc. With a little planning, you can make it work. Maybe not hundreds of players, but even a few dozen works. There really is no formula of what makes a convention. Call it DeanothCon and invite everyone to attend. Charge entry if you need to, or not. Support other games, or not. As the organizer, you can do what ever you want.
Then, enter your convention in the events page of PFSOP and send Mike an email. I'm sure he would support you with boons at the minimum. If it's large enough, you might qualify for prize support. Who knows, you might even get some uber-devoted, traveling GM's to attend and support it.
I for one do not personally live in a rural area but I mentioned that there are people that do that do not have access to tons of gamers as I might have here... and even where I live there are not "tons" of gamers here and we have one of the largest comic/game book stores in the nation.
I am playing the devils advocate and showing that not all is perfect and there are conditions as to when and who can attend what. Not everyone is as outgoing as I am and able to start a convention either.Look I am not saying we should accommodate everyone and give them boons just because they did not go to such and such con or attend such and such event. I am just saying for people to be more intuitive as to why people want to be able to have access to some of these too without having to attend a major event or even having to jump through some major hoops to get them.
People in this thread have accused me and even some of the other posters that we are spouting a sense of entitlement and have even been rude to people that have mentioned that they thought it was unfair. But people going to conventions do not have the same sense of entitlement and do not get angry when they are challenged slightly because of them attending and having the boons? Yet we are the ones accused of that title.
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I really do not care one way or other but do think that there should be a guideline for this in the future as to how many tables can there be for getting special considerations? for Prize Support? What is the minimum that is needed to get any support at all? Does it go by the single event? or in the case of game days by the month? For instance if I have a game day that takes place 4 times a month and average 2-3 tables per game day should I be denied support because I fall short of say a 4 table minimum per event? as opposed to a convention that has 9 tables on a weekend gets that support because they have it once a year? If you go by a year, the game day averages MORE players and games then does the convention. but lacks the support because it does not have the requisite tables.
Right now there is a lack of data as to how to do certain things and what is and is not supported with out having to go out and do a major search on these forums, even then it is spotty.
We do not have much in the way of GM support as far as incentive compared to even that "other" company and they print their scenarios out, provide maps, and even "pogs" if the GM does not have mini's to use for the game. During the 13 week "season" they are given a freebie of a module of some kind to "Thank" them for GMing and when the season starts. They are given a gift too of some kind like the colored spell templates (similar to the ones that they gave out once for the RPGA one time) and yet we hardly even do that for our GM's unless we can find a sponsor such as a FLGS or some such... or have a prerequisite of tables and such.
What are the pre-req's for support. What is needed for it and what is the basis for it? As a community we have a lot to say in this, not demand but asking is saying too? :)
We should have a solid document for this and what is expected for a single table, multi table, game day event, convention big or small and what is given, not given and give us a chance to weigh in on this so that we can show our support and give constructive criticism. :)
Just a suggestion.
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I am playing the devils advocate and showing that not all is perfect and there are conditions as to when and who can attend what. Not everyone is as outgoing as I am and able to start a convention either.
I think this is where you loose me. If a player is completely unwilling to take an active part in a cooperative game then there is little I can do for them. That is akin to saying that they shouldn't have to buy any books or dice or pencils for that matter and should be able to play and experience the same level of enjoyment as someone who invests hundreds if not thousands of dollars, and more importantly, hours to the game.
Sorry, if I sound snarky in my response, but there is only so far we should have to go to accommodate every last player. There is some, albeit small, amount of investment that is reasonable to expect from all players.
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The bar for getting one of the alternate race boons from the Beginner Box event is even lower than this. Organize a single 4-hour game and recruit 4 players. This game could take place at any public location. Run the game for the players and viola there is your alternate race access.
To recap:
organize game + recruit players + run game for players = alternate race boon
I was under the impression the GM does not get any boon when taking credit, am I now mistaken?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I was under the impression the GM does not get any boon when taking credit; am I now mistaken?
The trick is, unlike modules or scenarios, quests (Ambush in Absalom, the Beginner's Box Bash) and things like Jestercap don't have any credit for the GM to take: no experience, no gold. So, under that particular circumstance, since the GM should get something, and there's nothing other than the boon to get, the GM gets the boon.
That's the principle, as I understand it.
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I was under the impression the GM does not get any boon when taking credit; am I now mistaken?
The trick is, unlike modules or scenarios, quests (Ambush in Absalom, the Beginner's Box Bash) and things like Jestercap don't have any credit for the GM to take: no experience, no gold. So, under that particular circumstance, since the GM should get something, and there's nothing other than the boon to get, the GM gets the boon.
That's the principle, as I understand it.
This is something that needs to be made official too.
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Lots of stuff
IMO, we don't need an official document that creates some unbending structure for what qualifies for support and what doesn't. It is simple, organize your event, whatever that may be, and then send Mike an email. He can decide if your event warrants prize support. From time to time, he might have more or less access to prizes and I don't want some rulebook telling him he cannot give more or has to give more because "the rules" said so. That will just breed problems. He is quite liberal with the rewards and will likely do whatever is in his power to support your event. Maybe not the level you'd like, but anything is better than nothing.
As far as that "other" company, I hear lots of rumors about a decline in play nationally. While your local area might not be experiencing it, as an attendee of Origins, GenCon, and over 30 other regional conventions and Game Days across five regions in the past year, the "other" game is definitely in rapid decline. Whatever prize support they are offering might be the only way to keep their players from converting to another system. With it's huge growth, it seems many of them are running to PFRPG.
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This is something that needs to be made official too.
Actually, the rule already exists. GM's do not get boons when running scenarios or modules. But remember, the Beginner Box Quests are technically not an official PFS event. The boon that is awarded to participants (both player and GM's) is a reward intended to add interest for the players to move on and join PFS and for the GM's who are devoting four hours of their time to try and recruit new players.
It might be a good idea for consistency to add the Beginner Box and its chronicle to the additional resources. I expect that will happen soon.
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Lots of stuffIMO, we don't need an official document that creates some unbending structure for what qualifies for support and what doesn't. It is simple, organize your event, whatever that may be, and then send Mike an email. He can decide if your event warrants prize support. From time to time, he might have more or less access to prizes and I don't want some rulebook telling him he cannot give more or has to give more because "the rules" said so. That will just breed problems. He is quite liberal with the rewards and will likely do whatever is in his power to support your event. Maybe not the level you'd like, but anything is better than nothing.
I was not asking for myself in the above quote you were referring to.
This is me saying this now for myself.
One day I am being given support for the scenarios and having them being given to me and my GMs and the next week I am not for Me or my GM's of my game day event. So what ever problems you are talking about are already occurring to the detriment of some of the smaller events yet consistent ones. If you do not want an official document that is ok I guess... but I guess I am not in the same boat because my game days is much smaller then the ones you are running. Sorry.
As far as that "other" company, I hear lots of rumors about a decline in play nationally. While your local area might not be experiencing it, as an attendee of Origins, GenCon, and over 30 other regional conventions and Game Days across five regions in the past year, the "other" game is definitely in rapid decline. Whatever prize support they are offering might be the only way to keep their players from converting to another system. With it's huge growth, it seems many of them are running to PFRPG.
This may be the case.. but it is being "seen" here and the GM's are seeing it that I have helping me. They see "me" buying them things on my own and not getting the same from PFS and I do not complain until now. Even now I am not truly ranting... I am just stating my opion be it what is may. I just want something offocial so I can let my players an d GM's know and maybe even show them that PFS has our backs and I am not doing it all on my own. They do not want that for me. I want PFS to succeed but I guess I am asking to much?
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This is something that needs to be made official too.Actually, the rule already exists. GM's do not get boons when running scenarios or modules. But remember, the Beginner Box Quests are technically not an official PFS event. The boon that is awarded to participants (both player and GM's) is a reward intended to add interest for the players to move on and join PFS and for the GM's who are devoting four hours of their time to try and recruit new players.
It might be a good idea for consistency to add the Beginner Box and its chronicle to the additional resources. I expect that will happen soon.
But it is not officially added any where, where it says that a GM can take the boon if it is not an official PFS event?? Or am I mistaken?
I feel like I am beating a dead horse so to speak and blame text for this. again I am not trying to rant and rave here or beat the proverbial dead horse, but I am just thinking that if a GM "can" take the boon it should say so in the resources and or Players guide?
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Deanoth, there is a specific "GM Boon" for the Beginner Box Bash. Who do you think is supposed to take it?
It would have been nice to have known this before :) Did not "know" there was a specific boon for the GM in and of itself.
Does it say this for the Racial boons too? Or am I mistaken in that they do not?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Racial boons aren't given as GM credit. They are prize support. At least, at Gen-Con and the smaller conventions I've attended, "you get to play a new character with this wacky race" boons are among the random boons ("one of tyour PCs gets an untyped +2 bonus to Perception" or "one of your PCs get an extra trait") that you can win. At Gen-Con, everybody at the table, player and GM alike, received a wooden token to be traded in for a key. If the key opened a treasure chest in the front of the room (about 1 in 25 did), then you rolled a d20 to determine which boon you received. There was no distinction whether you ran a character or all the NPCs.
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I really do not care one way or other but do think that there should be a guideline for this in the future as to how many tables can there be for getting special considerations? for Prize Support? What is the minimum that is needed to get any support at all? Does it go by the single event? or in the case of game days by the month? For instance if I have a game day that takes place 4 times a month and average 2-3 tables per game day should I be denied support because I fall short of say a 4 table minimum per event? as opposed to a convention that has 9 tables on a weekend gets that support because they have it once a year? If you go by a year, the game day averages MORE players and games then does the convention. but lacks the support because it does not have the requisite tables.
You or your GM can email me directly and we can discuss your specific game day situation.
As for a guideline, there has never been a Convention Support Policy. One of the first things I did when I arrived was start writing one up so everyone knows exactly what the expectations are for the level of prize support they can achieve. It is in the final stages of approval and should be published soon.
As for game days, that is a different animal than conventions. Again, nothing has ever been established in the past and I am working towards that now. When I first arrived here, I was sending free PDFs to every game day, even if they only had one table. This isn't a problem when the game days are being reported in a TIMELY manner. Unfortunately, that isn't happening to the degree it needs to. So, I placed a five table minimum on Venture-Captains to receive free PFS PDFs of the scenarios scheduled and those are placed directly into the GMs download in their account here.
With that said, if we start getting better reporting from the field, I can go back and review that. You make a point that you run four tables a game day. So, if I set the number at four, then we have game days only running three tables complaining. There has to be a line drawn somewhere and I placed it at 5 tables. If I see a ton of four table game days reporting their events, then I will go back and readdress it.
As far as GM support system, it is coming as well. Probably later rather than sooner but it is on my agenda. It may not be templates and shirts and books and the like, but I am looking into establishing a GM support system that parallels the current GM star system. It may be just special GM Boons, or it could be certificates. I simply can't give you an answer yet because it is one of many things I am working on but is not the top of the priority list. I set up a robust GM program in Atlanta, a little too robust, and I ended up spending a lot of out of pocket expense as a Venture-Captain. So, I am cognizant of the costs involved. I know because I fostered it for a year and it continues at a similar level still in Atlanta with the current Venture-Captains.
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I am looking into establishing a GM support system that parallels the current GM star system. ...but is not the top of the priority list.Let me see that priority list for a second...
"Whaddya mean I have to run 50 Special or Exclusive sessions at my convention in order to get prize support from Paizo??!!!"
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You've never gotten me!
Why does everyone insist on opening the Dire Care Baird's cage door and then poking him with a stick? ;-)
I want to play at your table. With such a statement you are certainly the target of Care Baird's bloodlust and that should increase my survivability. Besides, he's bored with me having successfully killed me 2-1/2 times.
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Why does everyone insist on opening the Dire Care Baird's cage door and then poking him with a stick? ;-)
It's because it's so fun.
He's actually had a few opportunities to kill me, and failed each time. He even had us playing Rebel's Ransom with only four people, barely 5th level, near TPKed us and STILL failed to kill my 10 con wizard!
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** spoiler omitted **Having met you this weekend, I have the greatest image of you puppy dog eyeing Kyle, but I also have the image of Kyle laughing maniacly at you as he rolls his next 20, and then confirms his player killing crit.
Kyle has no soul, thus can not feel mercy.
I may not have a soul, and I definitely never feel merciful, but I can't resist beer and hockey, Canada's two most important exports.
I may not have a soul, and I definitely never feel merciful, but I can't resist beer and hockey, Canada's two most important exports.** spoiler omitted **Having met you this weekend, I have the greatest image of you puppy dog eyeing Kyle, but I also have the image of Kyle laughing maniacly at you as he rolls his next 20, and then confirms his player killing crit.
Kyle has no soul, thus can not feel mercy.
I thought those were Celine Dion and Bryan Adams! ;-)
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Huh. I thought most Americans still thought Canada's 2 most important exports were Pamela Anderson.I can't resist beer and hockey, Canada's two most important exports.I thought those were Celine Dion and Bryan Adams! ;-)
Being the next generation of gamer, I'm pretty certain it's back to booze and hockey since those 3 previously listed have gone past their date of expiration, which beer and hockey has none.
Here thar be thread necromancy. 2011 was a time ago.
For what its worth, not a big fan of the way racial boons are handled myself. Boons being a bonus is fine, but restricting everyone else to make them special doesn't actually make it special...
