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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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It seems like it is a combination of 3.5, Pathfinder and even 2nd edition.
Examples:
1. It uses all of the following skills: Surivial (PF and 3.5), Perception (PF), and Hide (3.5).
2. It does not perfrom actions in the surprise round in initiative order (as PF and 3.5 require). Instead the ogre gets a surprise attack then everyone rolls initiative (2E surprise).
I just assumed it would be an example of "Pathfinder" play but instead it seems like an example of how a group of people that have played several editions of the game would misinterpret things into their own home brew game. Which, realistically, is probably a very accurate example but shows just how confusing this game can be!
1) Typo. Someone forgot that Hide is now Stealth.
2) There was only 1 creature able to act in the surprise round - the ogrekin. Everyone else was surprised, and so couldn't act. Initiative only matters in a surprise round if there are multiple creatures that arn't surprised. Since only the ogrekin could act, initiative wasn't needed. Though the rest of the party should of been given Perception checks to notice the ogrekin as well, not just Karnak.
Quote: The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
1. I think it meant Stealth. Hide is probably a misprint.
2. Only participants who are not surprised get to roll initiative in the surprise round.
Hide has got to be an error. It should be stealth.
You only act in the surprise round if you're not surprised. Since nobody beat the stealth check, the ogre is the only one to act during the surprise round.
Edit: Double ninja all the way across the thread! What does it mean?!
From the PRD:
How Combat Works
Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:
1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
so on...
In PF, as soon as the combat began initiative should have been rolled, then the surprise takes effect.
PRD:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
If you're unaware of combat, you can't take any actions in the surprise round. So the DM skipped all the unaware characters initiatives and just moved on to the ogre's initiative.
Technically you're correct. Initiative should be rolled first and since it's an example it should have been done that way.
Practically speaking, it makes no difference since actions occur in same order regardless of when initiative is rolled if only one person can act in the surprise round.
thejeff wrote: Technically you're correct. Initiative should be rolled first and since it's an example it should have been done that way. It's funny. The GMG also says:
"Know the Rules
You don’t need encyclopedic knowledge of the Pathfinder
RPG rules set to run a quality game. You do, however, need
to be comfortable with those parts of the rules that come up
frequently in play. This means the rules for determining
initiative, how creatures attack and defend, and how to
resolve noncombat challenges like skill checks..."
Fac quod dico, non quod facio!
How about 'this is your game, and these rules are merely guidelines'?
You're seriously complaining that the example DM didn't roll initiative before resolving the surprise round? And that this makes it 'not Pathfinder'?
TOZ wrote: How about 'this is your game, and these rules are merely guidelines'?
You're seriously complaining that the example DM didn't roll initiative before resolving the surprise round? And that this makes it 'not Pathfinder'?
Well if you read my OP you will see I'm not complaining at all. In fact I even state that the example is probably very realistic for a typical long time playing group where rules from various editions get mashed together.
Besides, using a skill that only exists in 3.5 and an initiative sequence from 2E certainly can make one question what game is being played, no? They could have thrown in a "healing surge" as well just to get some 4E in the mix, fine by me, but probably confusing for someone that was looking for a Pathfinder example of play is all.
Given that neither example actually effects anything in game, and given that everyone can immediately tell what was meant, then no harm, no foul.
Ah, must have been the 'do as I say not as I do' comment that threw me off.
Again, how is this not Pathfinder? You have a typo on a skill title, and a different order of resolution. This changes the edition somehow?
What is the point of bringing up healing surges in the conversation?
TOZ wrote: Ah, must have been the 'do as I say not as I do' comment that threw me off.
Again, how is this not Pathfinder? You have a typo on a skill title, and a different order of resolution. This changes the edition somehow?
What is the point of bringing up healing surges in the conversation?
My point is that the example of play is more of a mash-up of several editions of the game rather than a pure Pathfinder example of play. In that short example you have rules from PF (perception), 3.5 (hide), and 2E (initiative sequence). I mentioned "healing surge" as an example of a 4E concept that could have been thrown in as well and it would have been the same situation.
To me the example of play is that of a group that has played several versions of the game and is getting the rules mixed up. A group that was only familiar with Pathfinder wouldn't even know what "hide" was and they would be wondering why the GM didn't call for initiative to be rolled before the surprise round. So a PF player with no 3.5 or 2E experience reading that example of play would probably be confused by some of the terms and sequences used in it.
Maybe. I never read the 3.5 example of play that closely. I doubt a new PF player would even think about such things. And if they did, it would quickly be forgotten after the first few sessions.
The only example of play I've ever read was the WFRP 2e ones, because the fiction in there was so good that you'd read the entire book looking for one more morsel of cheesy grimdark goodness to consume.
It doesn't surprise me that the example of play has typos. D&D is extensively houseruled by everyone who ever plays it. It's really easy to confuse your own houserules for the actual rules after a couple years-- and for people whose careers it is to do gaming, like the Paizo crew, I imagine that their idea of what the game is like is different from everyone else's even more so.
Didn't Shakespeare say something about a "sea change"?
I'd hardly say that's 2E initiative. Sloppy PF/3.x initiative, I guess you could call it.
Initiative was rolled individually for the PCs (though they skimmed over the rolls, it's obvious from the comment about keeping the initiative order), it's rolled once for the combat, not for every round, etc.
Technically, in 2E initiative is rolled in every round of combat. The surprise round is a round of combat, so initiative should be rolled.
In that kind of surprise situation I would do exactly the same thing in either edition. It's far more dramatic to open with the surprising creatures actual attack, than to describe the surprise attack and call for initiative rolls for later use before dealing with the actual attack.
Obviously, if some characters weren't surprised then initiatives would need to be rolled.
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