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But seriously dude. You said that the party wouldn't want to wait an hour for him to make the mutagen. I can understand if there's some sort of time limit. Maybe we need to rush to stop a zombie apocalypse! Maybe the roof is slowly moving down, inevitably going to crush us if we stay here and recoup and recharge our fighting capability. Maybe if we don't get this one artifact before sundown, the evil vampire lord is going to sacrifice poor Joe's daughter.
But why wouldn't they otherwise? You can't seriously mean that the party would rush forward with no chance to regain lost resources, just so that one player isn't steamrolling the enemies. That's metagaming at it's finest. Or worst, I guess.
Actually it can change a lot for the others guys in the party.
They have spells active? It is almost granted that at 2nd level they will not last beyond the second hour, so if the alchemist has already spent 20 minutes mutated and want to spend another 60 to make a new mutagen the other party members will at best be left with 40 minutes on they long lasting buffs and nothing on the others.
They were following someone? Yes, let's them get a 1 hour head start, it make things more interesting.
There are countless examples. Sure, you can have situations where spending an hour in preparations has no cost. But them why not waiting till the next day, so all the spellcasters get to recharge and each character heal a few hit points?
I think economy of magic items works just fine. Magic items are a luxuary type item. Only the 1% top of a population can afford it. There just won't be that much demand for it.
Look at it this every car company could make porches....they would make millions of dollars...except for the fact not everyone will have the money(or even desire) to buy a porche. So what we would have is alot of porches sitting around not being sold.
Now a NPC item crafter could be making a 2000gp piece item every day for a month...creating 30,000 gp in profit. But he spent 30,000gp in costs. Now lets say he only sells 1 of these items in the year...he has lost 29,000gp for that year. And I think him selling 1 of those items is a very generous assumption in one years time
Which is why in my games atleast magic items are always made to order...and require half up front.
Also because magic items don't wear out means it would be a lousy bussiness to be in to mass produce. The car industry makes soo much money more on the modern cars being disposable than they ever did when they built them to last.
But seriously dude. You said that the party wouldn't want to wait an hour for him to make the mutagen. I can understand if there's some sort of time limit. Maybe we need to rush to stop a zombie apocalypse! Maybe the roof is slowly moving down, inevitably going to crush us if we stay here and recoup and recharge our fighting capability. Maybe if we don't get this one artifact before sundown, the evil vampire lord is going to sacrifice poor Joe's daughter.
But why wouldn't they otherwise? You can't seriously mean that the party would rush forward with no chance to regain lost resources, just so that one player isn't steamrolling the enemies. That's metagaming at it's finest. Or worst, I guess.
Actually it can change a lot for the others guys in the party.
They have spells active? It is almost granted that at 2nd level they will not last beyond the second hour, so if the alchemist has already spent 20 minutes mutated and want to spend another 60 to make a new mutagen the other party members will at best be left with 40 minutes on they long lasting buffs and nothing on the others.
They were following someone? Yes, let's them get a 1 hour head start, it make things more interesting.
There are countless examples. Sure, you can have situations where spending an hour in preparations has no cost. But them why not waiting till the next day, so all the spellcasters get to recharge and each character heal a few hit points?
My friend, I believe that you missed the part where I framed my statements in the context of not having time constraints.
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My friend, I believe that you missed the part where I framed my statements in the context of not having time constraints.
He also missed the part where we silently agreed to disagree and moved on...people just come in and read what they want and say what they want without reading a thread entirely. I can't even count the number of times and people that came in and said the EXACT same make and sell for 50% line.
Also there are no rules for wear and tear -- doesn't mean it's not happening.
..but do you really think the game assumes it does or are you suggesting it as something for the GM to do for his game.
A lot of things are "not in the rules" that does not mean they qualify as under the category of ignoring or assuming they do happen.
Many adventures do have magic items that are decades to hundreds of years older or more. I think a magic item wearing down would be very rare.
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First time with these rules, I haven't even started the game yet and I already have a list of house rules a mile long again...Paizo is the Blizzard of RPGs: Pathfinder is probably the most carefully balanced game out there right now. That's not to say that it is flawless or that every choice is equally good, but in general if something seems highly imbalanced there's a good chance you're missing a rule somewhere.
I feel the need to congratulate you, as I very rarely hear things as incredibly false as this.
Case in point, Blizzard actively talks about how much they care about balanced, Pathfinder developers talk about how much they don't care about balance.
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karkon wrote:
Crafting magic items does work in a game economy. In real life companies don't make unlimited amounts of stuff for two reasons: the market is not big enough or they do not have the capacity to make more. If a company can make ten million widgets but only sells 4 million a year then they will only make around 4 million of them. To make more is foolish as they would sell at a loss or not sell at all. If that company can sell 15million widgets it will make its capacity and try to expand if the long term prospects look good. If not other people might jump in.Tilnar wrote:
There's a few issues here.One, while companies may not make infinite stuff, but they do keep making new stuff, because selling that stuff is how they make their money. Not selling stuff = no money = bad.
Two, companies will often price that new stuff a little lower when dealing with a competitor who is selling similar stuff.
Three, you have to remember that most modern manufacturing makes use of Planned Obsolescence -- so that there's always a market.
In cases where they didn't, you had market saturation which often led to the failure of those companies, although this also often resulted in a very large reduced-cost pool of goods (as they try to compete with their own past products that are being resold -- Nortel, is an excellent example here) -- which is the same thing that I'm arguing -- that, eventually, the items would become more and more common, and cheaper.
So, yes, I'm saying the rules (as written) would eventually lead to a world filled with (low-power, sure) items that would end up costing little more than the cost to build them -- and, in fact, possibly even slightly less because of attempts at competition. I am also saying that the ease of making a magic items would then lead to things like a magical dishwasher (via Prestidigitation) or Fixit Box (via Mending) -- because at least one mage out there will remember his mother's birthday -- and that you're also walking the road to universal magiTech.
Magic items cannot become cheaper beyond a certain point. Crafters can only make items at half the value so once the price is below that they will stop making them until they can make a profit. The price may go down due to a huge glut (like after a war) but eventually the glut is adsorbed and prices go up again.
Prices when they crash do not stay crashed. Prices go down when there are too many of that item for the market to adsorb. So the price is lowered to help draw in more buyers. But once the extra gets purchased it will go up again.
Look at the real world economy stuff is constantly made. Now let us look at a magic item analogue: jewelry. It is expensive, does not really wear out. Yet people keep buying it. Why?
First, styles come in and out of fashion. A diamond ring from 100 years ago is not as nice as a modern one. Second, people do lose them. My wife lost her nice tennis bracelet so I bought her a pair of 1 ct earrings. Third, income mobility. Young people start out poor but as they progress in their careers they get wealthier so they buy nice stuff. Fourth, needs change. When I was single I did not wear jewelry. I got married so I had to buy a wedding band. I still don't wear it but I bought it. Fifth, I had kids and bought my daughter earrings. Several different kinds. Eventually my wife plans to give her the old stuff and buy new stuff.
Many of those reasons can apply to magic items.
Also there are no rules for wear and tear -- doesn't mean it's not happening.
..but do you really think the game assumes it does or are you suggesting it as something for the GM to do for his game.
A lot of things are "not in the rules" that does not mean they qualify as under the category of ignoring or assuming they do happen.
Many adventures do have magic items that are decades to hundreds of years older or more. I think a magic item wearing down would be very rare.
See here's the problem -- it can wear and tear -- without wearing down... at least at first (that and I didn't adequately explain myself).
If worn and used normally it might never wear out. It could go on lasting eternity or maybe the enchantment will wear out some 1,000 years from now either way it wouldn't matter immediately.
But lets say it's left unattended while the owner gets their groove on near the campfire. While grooving the cloak gets kicked and ends up with the corner in the fire -- oops quick catch no problems. Yeah it's got a slight burn (and lost some HP) but heck no big deal the enchantment is still good.
Later on it gets passed down to the product of that grooving having not been fixed. Said offspring is unlucky and gets hit with an AOE damage spell and rolls a 1 -- and damages the cloak again. Oops that was too much and the cloak is pass it's 1/2 hp broken point and starts to malfunction. So he throws it in the bag for later since it's not doing any good now. Before he gets it fixed however he finds a +2 cloak and forgets about the broken one... which gets shoved into a closet... it could still be returned to magical status... but instead some clothe eating bugs get it and completely trash it, and now it's destroyed.
That is wear and tear -- it's not magic running out or it not having batteries, it's the stuff that happens over the years and destroys the actual item which lacks any basic protections to prevent it.
Proof:
Damaging Magic Items
a magic item doesn't need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them—even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). a magic item's saving throw bonus equals 2 1/2 its caster level (rounded down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.
Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost. Magic items that take damage in excess of half their total hit points, but not more than their total hit points, gain the Broken condition, and might not function properly (see the Appendix).
Only magical weapons have actual proof against destruction built in (and even that's just against sunder -- you can actually burst them still with a strength check). Armor is a bit better off than most magical items with its magically increased hardness and hp... but that's still not immunity.
As such items are still vulnerable to breakage and 'shrinkage' to use a modern term.
Would I advocate doing such to player characters? Not immediately or without setting it up over time (like the above cloak... it could have been fixed but the adventurer ignored it since it didn't matter really at the time) so that they have the option to stop it.
Now we can repair magical items:
Repairing Magic Items
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level.
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But it's not always going to be considered worth the time and effort for people (but again it can be done), or might not happen in time.
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Let me clarify something important here on page three: the economy isn't intended to make sense, the craft/profession skills exist so and only so you can say "See my character sheet says BLACKSMITH on it" and are neigh nonfunctional, and the magic crafting rules are made based around adventuring and nothing else because this is a game about adventuring, not running a magical store.
another explanation
Most GM's don't make magic items take damage, even when they should. I would expect for a GM using this oft-ignored rule to let the players know so they can fix it.
PS:Thanks for the explanation.
Let me clarify something important here on page three: the economy isn't intended to make sense, the craft/profession skills exist so and only so you can say "See my character sheet says BLACKSMITH on it" and are neigh nonfunctional, and the magic crafting rules are made based around adventuring and nothing else because this is a game about adventuring, not running a magical store.
Well that's all fine and dandy but they did a heck of a job making a system that works when it wasn't intended too.
@Wraithstrike
Not using the rules doesn't mean they don't work though, and it could be that they aren't used actively instead considered to be happening behind the screen so to speak. One of those "Yeah I'm not actively tracking encumbrance for you but you still aren't carrying the iron golem with a strength of 7 and just because I'm giving you a pass doesn't mean that the NPC old lady with a strength of 5 is having an easy time with that basket of apples."
Or as I put it to the party wizard, "I'm not using the called target rules because you like having vocal cords... that doesn't mean specific spots won't be targeted for role play purposes or that it's impossible to do -- but on a whole we aren't using them so you can still cast spells."
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One, I can tell you're experienced as you've found two issues beginning DMs don't see until too late. Customizing magic items is very effective, but is factored in the difficulty level. And some melee builds can be devastating (in many Core classes too), but then they're the ones that need to clear the space around them or they get mauled in return. One question to you is why doesn't the main melee person scare you just as much?
Two, if you're RP/intrigue focused, there are RP (Diplomacy/Intimidate) builds that can be just as jarring. But mainly, this style implies that the PCs' enemies will be familiar with the PCs and therefore hire mercenaries accordingly. (I see you your 'alchemist' and raise you one 'sorcerer/sniper firing from a distance' or 'pull out that ooze we bought, that adventuring group finally gained the balls to intrude.')
It also implies they'll get ambushed unprepared more often.
Three, it is 'rocket tag'. Level 2 party meets 6 Orc warriors (CR 1/3) in a tough, but fairly typical battle. If you're only doing 2 combats/day, it should be even tougher. 2 Orcs hit your Alchemist with longspears (so no AoO even if Enlarged) for 2d8+8, or 17 pts. average. He's down or so close to down as to be scared. That's round one. Sure, sometimes he'll go first and three Orcs will drop (or not, because they have 'ferocity'), but this is why you threw 6 at them and why he has allies too. Sleep spell or Color Spray can knock out as many or more. 18 Str. Barbs & Fighters with PA do +9, add Combat Reflexes or Cleave to chew through multiple opponents, and they still (usually) have better defense.
It's a tougher game, and a lot more offense-driven than before, especially if you harken back to pre-3.x days.
The monsters ramp up accordingly (with exceptions like Bugbears w/o class levels) to where your Alchemist is holding his own, and needs to.
If you only issue meat & potatoes monsters at this fellow (or any high-Str build) it'll grow dull fast (or rely too much on initiative if it's a really tough foe). Definitely pull out the whole range of monster species, not just humanoids. You'll find the system has low CR monsters perfectly capable of challenging him, or that let the other PCs shine. (Oozes, swarms, creatures on fire/w/ acidic skin, lycanthropes w/ DR 10/silver, etc.)
Four, let him go full feral with 3 attacks. His lower BAB/h.p./armor quality almost require it. I think it was James Jacobs (or another designer of his caliber) who said that making adventures wasn't about thwarting/stymieing the marvelous things PCs can do, but about requiring them to do all those marvelous things to succeed/survive.
CR/EL=PC level is for storytelling/non-advanced players. Your player sounds like he needs CR+2 (minimum) to be challenged.
Oh, and watch out when he picks up the longspear while Enlarged...that's pretty ugly too.
(Level 3, feral/Combat Reflexes/PA, Str. 24, Att.+7, 2d6+13) means 20 damage just closing in his 20' reach. 30 minutes, w/ several 3 minute bursts of Enlarge, can run through a 'mundane' gauntlet with minimal pauses. So make sure to make your enemies many and variegated, w/ alternative terrains/abilities to challenge these guys.
Anyway, good luck.
I do agree you should start with some one-shots or pre-campaign prologue battles to get a feel, otherwise they may knock out some major plot points before you're ready for them to.
Well that's all fine and dandy but they did a heck of a job making a system that works when it wasn't intended too.
What part "works?"
Well that's all fine and dandy but they did a heck of a job making a system that works when it wasn't intended too.What part "works?"
Honestly people look at the parts scream it doesn't work and never try to build anything out of the parts -- but once you actually put them together... suddenly it works.
But lets say it's left unattended while the owner gets their groove on near the campfire. While grooving the cloak gets kicked and ends up with the corner in the fire -- oops quick catch no problems. Yeah it's got a slight burn (and lost some HP) but heck no big deal the enchantment is still good.<more story>
It's not a bad story, and I'm not saying that it's impossible -- but at this point, you're basically stating that the Immortals in Highlander aren't really immortal, since they can be beheaded.
The "little bits of damage" tale is somewhat weakened by the fact that mending is a cantrip, and the "broken and abandonned" item is similarly at risk because of make whole's ability to fix even a destroyed (0 hp) item.
Generally, the only way someone would toss a valuable magic item into a closet rather than having make whole cast on it is if the item's not terribly valuable in the first place -- which would be the sort of "magic is cheap" environment I'm describing, no?
However, yes, some items *will* be destroyed or lost.
Maybe the wearer was swimming through lava and had his resistance dispelled. Maybe he was gated to the Abyss for giggles. Maybe someone got too close to the Sphere of Annihilation.
But how many items do we think are being destroyed (utterly) or left in ruin against the number of cloaks that can be churned out by any caster (level 3+) with a feat and a small pile of gold?
Especially when my concern isn't magic adventuring equipment -- but low-level magic utility devices.
Remember kids, only fire and acid kill trolls, not rhetoric.
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The simplicity of construction is such that some people would start making devices that employ magic (instead of people and muscle power) -- especially considering that both prestidigitation and mending are level 0 spells. (Happy birthday, Mom. I made you this box that will fix clothes, now that the arthritis won't let you darn socks. Oh, and as a bonus, it'll work on most small stuff you put in it - like tools.)
Actually mending won't darn socks.
Mending only repair breaks and tears, it will not repair wear.So a mended sock will be exactly as it was a moment before breaking.
Darning require to reinforce the wearied out part with new material.
So mending can repair a scythe if the farmer has broken its blade hitting a rock but it will not make it "like new" if it was worn out after being sharpened too many times.
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what about a ring of sustenance? they only need 2 hours of sleep. I think according to raw you can only spend 8hrs a day on a single item, but you can craft 2 items at the same time, and also (i think) according to raw you can spend 2hrs a day of crafting while on the road implying that partial days are also possible. so with a ring of sustenance you can easily make 2 items at the same time with still 6 hours left in the day for other things. if you decrease it to 2 free hours a day, you can spend 18 hours a day crafting, 2.25 days of crafting per day, doubling the speed makes that to 4.5 crafting days per day.
some of that is up to the GM
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the under-construction item are wasted.
So No and No.
You can get to work for 8 hours while adventuring, but you don't get more hours of work every day.
But lets say it's left unattended while the owner gets their groove on near the campfire. While grooving the cloak gets kicked and ends up with the corner in the fire -- oops quick catch no problems. Yeah it's got a slight burn (and lost some HP) but heck no big deal the enchantment is still good.<more story>
It's not a bad story, and I'm not saying that it's impossible -- but at this point, you're basically stating that the Immortals in Highlander aren't really immortal, since they can be beheaded.
The "little bits of damage" tale is somewhat weakened by the fact that mending is a cantrip, and the "broken and abandonned" item is similarly at risk because of make whole's ability to fix even a destroyed (0 hp) item.
OOOH so nice but a swing and a miss.
Repairing Magic Items
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level.
So you either need the make whole spell (and a high enough caster level) or you need to spend 1/4 of the cost of the item and 1/2 the time used to construct it to make it whole again.
Also it's not a 'small pile of gold' unless 10x your average farmer's take home is a small pile to your economy.
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Nothing in the rules states that they run out (charged items notwithstanding) either -- and more than one adventure has (as its reward) magic items that are hundreds or thousands of years old. Non-charged items are generally considered to be permanent, and I would say that since there's no mechanic for them breaking down or wearing out (and the fact they're handed out as treasure), that doing otherwise would be a GM ruling to "fix" a problem.
(And I don't know of any player who'd be happy that the mythical sword of the long-dead Emperor King he just grabbed that's supposed to be a Dragonsbane isn't going to help him beat ol' Red outside the tomb).
Actually "the ancient magic of item X is fading out, it need to be replaced/renewed" is a common trope. You usually see it in large magical structures, but something you see it for smaller items too. An example is Narsil, it was broken and had to be reforged as Andúril.
You find this kind of stuff in fantasy literature and even in the gaming world.
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My friend, I believe that you missed the part where I framed my statements in the context of not having time constraints.But seriously dude. You said that the party wouldn't want to wait an hour for him to make the mutagen. I can understand if there's some sort of time limit. Maybe we need to rush to stop a zombie apocalypse! Maybe the roof is slowly moving down, inevitably going to crush us if we stay here and recoup and recharge our fighting capability. Maybe if we don't get this one artifact before sundown, the evil vampire lord is going to sacrifice poor Joe's daughter.
But why wouldn't they otherwise? You can't seriously mean that the party would rush forward with no chance to regain lost resources, just so that one player isn't steamrolling the enemies. That's metagaming at it's finest. Or worst, I guess.
Actually it can change a lot for the others guys in the party.
They have spells active? It is almost granted that at 2nd level they will not last beyond the second hour, so if the alchemist has already spent 20 minutes mutated and want to spend another 60 to make a new mutagen the other party members will at best be left with 40 minutes on they long lasting buffs and nothing on the others.
They were following someone? Yes, let's them get a 1 hour head start, it make things more interesting.
There are countless examples. Sure, you can have situations where spending an hour in preparations has no cost. But them why not waiting till the next day, so all the spellcasters get to recharge and each character heal a few hit points?
I noticed that but I think it is a bogus argument.
There are 2 options:
- 0 time constraint, so why you aren't waiting till the next day so all guys "recharge" their abilities;
- some time constraint, so you must weight the advantages and disadvantages of spending one hour to allow for the alchemist to "recharge".
You seem to say "only the alchemist need to recharge, so the other guys are evil with him not allowing him to do that".
The same argument can be used for any character that can and want to go nova for a few minutes and the wait the next day.
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And I find it bogus that you see no difference between one hour and 12-24 hours. If you would like to continue this elsewhere, please make a thread for it, but I have already derailed this thread enough and so I will not respond to this further.
The "little bits of damage" tale is somewhat weakened by the fact that mending is a cantrip, and the "broken and abandonned" item is similarly at risk because of make whole's ability to fix even a destroyed (0 hp) item.
OOOH so nice but a swing and a miss.
Really? Hmm, I seem to notice this in PRD:
This spell repairs damaged objects, restoring 1d4 hit points to the object. If the object has the broken condition, this condition is removed if the object is restored to at least half its original hit points. All of the pieces of an object must be present for this spell to function. Magic items can be repaired by this spell, but you must have a caster level equal to or higher than that of the object.
Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.
So: small fire damage can be mended, failed save destruction can be make wholed.
Also it's not a 'small pile of gold' unless 10x your average farmer's take home is a small pile to your economy.
Quite true, but we're not talking about average farmers, here, we're talking about the 3+ level guy making the item -- who, using WBL, can afford the 1000gp.
Mending only repair breaks and tears, it will not repair wear.
So a mended sock will be exactly as it was a moment before breaking.
That's not what the spell description says -- As I read it, mending repairs hp damage to items and only doesn't undo warping and transmutation. You can rule mending to work as you describe, but that's a houserule, I would think.
In any case, we've strayed far, far from the original topic here - and you'll notice that I myself said that things weren't as bad as the OP suggested - just that easy item construction, when allowed for centuries, if not millenia, would result in a high number of existant magic items -- which would then mess with the whole system of magic item pricing.
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Mending only repair breaks and tears, it will not repair wear.
So a mended sock will be exactly as it was a moment before breaking.
That's not what the spell description says -- As I read it, mending repairs hp damage to items and only doesn't undo warping and transmutation. You can rule mending to work as you describe, but that's a houserule, I would think.
In any case, we've strayed far, far from the original topic here - and you'll notice that I myself said that things weren't as bad as the OP suggested - just that easy item construction, when allowed for centuries, if not millenia, would result in a high number of existant magic items -- which would then mess with the whole system of magic item pricing.
It is the advice section, nor rule question, and the discussion is still somewhat related. I think we aren't straying too much.
I was checking 3.5, as I wanted to look the differences, and that phrase struck in my mind. The relevant part in the Pathfinder version, in my opinion, is:
"All of the pieces of an object must be present for this spell to function."
If the item is worn the pieces aren't there.
Let's make an extreme example:
I take a gold piece and file it a little, so that it is a bit worn, taking away the gold dust. Then I mend it.
What happen?
The gold dust I have stored away is rejoined to the gold piece?
The spell magically create new gold?
Nothing?
What If I had used the gold dust from hundred of filed gold pieces to make a earring?
What if the wearing was from normal handling instead of filing?
I think that this other piece in the spell description is relevant "This spell has no effect on objects that have been warped or otherwise transmuted,"
A partially combusted item has been transmuted, at least the damaged part.
So, to get a tenuous tie with the initial discussion, some level of demand for new magic items will be always there, but not in great numbers.
Your grandfather +1 sword will be as good as new. even if a little less shiny.
Maybe after 10 generation of constant use it will start to have problems and require to be reforged.
Laying in a tomb for 10.000 years will probably do nothing to it.
The "little bits of damage" tale is somewhat weakened by the fact that mending is a cantrip, and the "broken and abandonned" item is similarly at risk because of make whole's ability to fix even a destroyed (0 hp) item.
OOOH so nice but a swing and a miss.
Really? Hmm, I seem to notice this in PRD:
This spell repairs damaged objects, restoring 1d4 hit points to the object. If the object has the broken condition, this condition is removed if the object is restored to at least half its original hit points. All of the pieces of an object must be present for this spell to function. Magic items can be repaired by this spell, but you must have a caster level equal to or higher than that of the object.Make whole can fix destroyed magic items (at 0 hit points or less), and restores the magic properties of the item if your caster level is at least twice that of the item.So: small fire damage can be mended, failed save destruction can be make wholed.
Provided your caster level is high enough -- at level 5 good luck with that handy haversack with a caster level of 9, or the +2 armor/weapon, or a whole host of any other items with a caster level higher than your level.
Also the 'average' level 3 NPC has 780gp worth of equipment -- not 1,000gp, where as the average heroic NPC has 1,650gp and the PC has 3,000gp.
So again it's not like everyone can be doing this (also level 3 isn't very high in a pathfinder campaign coming in right in the middle of 'average' level).
I wish I could hide posters instead of having to hide entire threads.
Of course, I'd probably be one of the most hidden posters on the forums. :/
There's a user-made ignore script somewhere on the forums. You might be able to find it with a search.
Thanks for the replies so far, I didn't know this placed moved so fast. I'm going to spend a few days lurking around here when I finish with this thread so I can avoid bringing up issues that may have been beaten to death already.
Your feral alchemist is a problem but he's also very manageable and VERY one-dimensional. If you are using point buy system, then his STR is maxed out which means everything else is either average or fairly low. Which means if he blows into melee combat all enlarged and feelin' mighty, he is sporting light armor (shall we assume chain shirt?) and little or no Dex bonus, so maybe an AC of 15 or so... oh, and enlarge makes him easier to hit too. His CON is also average, so he's only got about 16 to 18 hit points too, give or take. Also he only gets one attack... you move into combat, you don't get a full attack. So he only gets to go full out hack n' slash with something that came to him or that was standing next to him last round.
So... your alchemist is feeling beefy, he runs into battle, and slashes at an orc barbarian opponent. He's gonna hit maybe half the time (+8 or so to hit?) so he'll do 1d4+10 damage. The barbarian is wounded but he retaliates with a big heavy weapon of his own, raging and power attacked, he knocks the alchemist clean out with a substantial average attack for 16 to 17 damage of his own. Now the mutagen fed alchemist can do a full attack and take out the orc, if he's still conscious. But orcs travel in groups so it's likely that Mr. Hyde there is going to be sporting several new arrow-created piercings in uncomfortable body parts very shortly.
Just one scenario, but always remember that if your players can do it, the monsters can too. Use terrain to your advantage, if you need to level the playing field, and for every strength, there is a weakness... to max out Strength, he neglected his other stats... use that! Bad Reflex and Fort saves, no Willpower to speak of, and lousy hit points and armor... if he wants to get all physical at low level, show him the error of his ways and then help him roll up a more balanced replacement character.
But orcs travel in groups so it's likely that Mr. Hyde there is going to be sporting several new arrow-created piercings in uncomfortable body parts very shortly.
Adventurers travel in groups too.
My group has a feral mutie, and he does need heals pretty often. He's pretty good at killing things though, and since we have a well rounded party, he doesn't need to be super well rounded himself. That's one of the draws of forming an adventuring band, you have allies specializing in different things and in the end the group ends up balanced.
My group is also pretty optimized, but the DM doesn't "challenge" us by sniping at each character with an ideal counter. Our challenges involve things such as fighting through the goblins to save the burning sacrifices in time. The goblin chief's fireballs definitely added lethality to the mix as well, but it's all about matching up play styles and expectations.
If you don't want to DM for optimized chars, and players want to optimize, then you need to find a compromise, or someone else should DM. Otherwise, someone's gonna be unhappy.
I don't use Firefox. :/
There's a user-made ignore script somewhere on the forums. You might be able to find it with a search.
It's because you hate freedom, isn't it.
As for the brokenness of craft, you can do a search on the boards and find as many opinions as there are avatars. I personally use Making Craft Work by Spes Magna. Highly recommend it.
Why, thank you! Thank you very much!
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
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Why don't people read the first page of posts? Half the new posters are just repeating what was said 100 posts ago! And a Quarter of the new posters are posting things that are irrelivant to the OP. And the last Quarter are still arguing about points made 100 posts ago.
We get it...crafting/repairing magical items really isn't over powered...its to make it so that Bard can get a magic bow instead of the +1 Thundering Scythe that dropped.
And we understand that the Feral Mutagen is brutal and the player chated a bit, but can be managed in other ways...when in doubt a Pixie is a dangerous enemy.
/endthread
Why don't people read the first page of posts? Half the new posters are just repeating what was said 100 posts ago! And a Quarter of the new posters are posting things that are irrelivant to the OP. And the last Quarter are still arguing about points made 100 posts ago.
Good sir -- you act as if this isn't the Internet.
Absolutely -- I still advise some one shots and goof around time simply to get use to the rules but that's optional.
As to your second dash... well there's a lot of people on both sides of that. Enough to say, "Hey as long as you all are having fun you aren't doing it wrong."
Even at low level, it is possible to build a really brutal alchemist, barbarian, sorcerer, summoner, or wizard. Most of these will be "one trick ponies", relatively helpless when outside their element.
As others have pointed out, some abusive builds can be curtailed by eliminating splat books until you have a feel for the power levels you want in your game.
If you're worried about magic item creation, take a page from the old AD&D DMG and require esoteric materials. That 4,000 gp material cost needed to make a +1 flaming sword? It went toward red dragon guano, salamander toenail clippings, ashes from the heart of Mt. TooDarnhot, and feathers of a virginal phoenix. The next time you want to make such a sword, the price will have gone up....
I get that the whole powergaming thing is popular now and if it brings more people to pen and paper gaming, then that's great. I'm sure it shows my age, but I feel physically nauseous when I imagine trying to build a character like it's some kind of video game. Maybe I'd end up with a better game if I could somehow straddle both worlds...
Part of it isn't simply 'powergaming' any more than having a 12th level paladin was back in the day though. People want to know their character is worth a damn, and is so without having the GM coddling him. An effective 'build' can help give the character and RP focus without being etched in stone. I like having such a 'guiding document' behind my characters as it helps me remember the important bits, like his motivations, how he sees himself and what he's aiming towards (and just in the "I want this item and that feat" kind of way).
For many people a 'build' is simply like your 'battle plan' before the actual battle starts -- its simply a hopeful scenario and something to guide you as everything is going to heck.
Let me clarify something important here on page three: the economy isn't intended to make sense, the craft/profession skills exist so and only so you can say "See my character sheet says BLACKSMITH on it" and are neigh nonfunctional, and the magic crafting rules are made based around adventuring and nothing else because this is a game about adventuring, not running a magical store.Well that's all fine and dandy but they did a heck of a job making a system that works when it wasn't intended too.
@Wraithstrike
Not using the rules doesn't mean they don't work though, and it could be that they aren't used actively instead considered to be happening behind the screen so to speak. One of those "Yeah I'm not actively tracking encumbrance for you but you still aren't carrying the iron golem with a strength of 7 and just because I'm giving you a pass doesn't mean that the NPC old lady with a strength of 5 is having an easy time with that basket of apples."
Or as I put it to the party wizard, "I'm not using the called target rules because you like having vocal cords... that doesn't mean specific spots won't be targeted for role play purposes or that it's impossible to do -- but on a whole we aren't using them so you can still cast spells."
My point was simply that the magic item will never(barring GM hamstringing) completely break if I know those rules are being enforced because I will have the item repaired if I am a player. The only way for the item to break completely is if I am RP'ing a careless character of I don't know the rule is being enforced.
I get that the whole powergaming thing is popular now...
Stop it. Not everyone plays the same game. Not playing your style does not equal powergaming.
I will never get the idea of "if you are being efficient you are doing it wrong."
I will never get the idea of "if you are being efficient you are doing it wrong."
I've found that if I pay more attention to threads, I realize that, yes, I indeed am not playing the game correctly, in part because I still can't realize that "this is a game about adventuring, not running a magical store." :)
I get that the whole powergaming thing is popular now and if it brings more people to pen and paper gaming, then that's great. I'm sure it shows my age, but I feel physically nauseous when I imagine trying to build a character like it's some kind of video game. Maybe I'd end up with a better game if I could somehow straddle both worlds...
Games that give a lot of choices in character design give power gamers a lot of options to try out. They also, however, give out a lot of choices to players who want character with broader capabilities too. Neither is a bad choice as long as it's in made in harmony with the rest of the players.
There's nothing good in efficiency in power or power gaming if it's disruptive at the gaming table. The same is true for developing the character based on role-playing quirks and breadth instead of depth and laser-focus. I'd consider pinning the players down, collectively, on what sort of game they'd like to have. If Mr. Hyde stands out as not fitting, have the player tone him down a bit.