I tend to agree that the Sohei were “probably” not intend to be able to flurry with rapid shot and manyshot but until there is an official word on it to the contrary my guide will focus on RAW and thus will treat it as being allowed.
A good rule of thumb is to remember that a written rule is essentially meaningless without looking for the intention that created it. Following RAW with no heed to RAI is walking a very dangerous line.
Either way, I'd strongly encourage you to point out how sketchy that build is in your guide. Ask the reader to talk to their GM before basing their build around it. Cause like I said, I think many GMs wouldn't like the idea, considering the unclear RAI and sketchy RAW (I'm one of them). If their GM accepts it, then it's all good. But its a potential problem at the table if it isn't addressed beforehand. Nothing sucks more than building a character around an idea, then when the idea finally comes up, listening to the GM say, "No." Such a thing should be avoided when possible, especially when the idea burns up valuable feat slots.
Oh, I may mention the possibility that the feats are suspect but I'm also not going to assume that I know what was intended and ignore the RAW, imho that would be even worse.
until there is an official word on it to the contrary my guide will focus on RAW
Emphasis mine, I never said I wouldn't consider the RAI only that when there is question as to what was meant I'm not going to play a guessing game even if I think I'm right. After all I "think" that they may have simply missed that but maybe they felt that since they had to meet the prerequisites for the feats that letting them get it wouldn't be that bad. After all rapid shots not hard to meet but most monks would have trouble meeting the prerequisites for manyshot. I have no idea, and that's kind of the point.
Anything like that I put in the guide is just me guessing, even if it is a reasonable guess, and I dislike assuming I'm right in a guide. If I just pretend like I'm right and don't first clearly state how it works by RAW I feel it'd be at least as bad as not mentioning what I believe would be the RAI.
Either way, I'd strongly encourage you to point out how sketchy that build is in your guide.
How "sketchy" is it exactly? In my home campaign I probably would allow it and I know one or two other GM's that probably wouldn't care either. In fact I might let the Zen archer use them too, but I could certainly see how another GM wouldn't.
In any case their is a reasonable chance that I'll mention it, but it will probably not amount to much more then a footnote until I know for sure, and I'm certainly not going to go through altering the colors on those feats when I don't even know for certain if it was intended or not.
What do you think is a good Archtype combo with Tetori?
Tetori group
- Tetori
- Monk of the Empty Hand
- Monk of the Healing Hand
- Monk Vows
- Qinggong Monk (can't replace Slow Fall, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun, Empty Body)
And Maneuver Master?
Maneuver Master group
- Maneuver Master
- Monk of the Four Winds (if Qinggong Monk is chosen also can't replace Abundant Step, Timeless Body, and Perfect Self)
- Qinggong Monk (can't replace Slow Fall, Diamond Body, Quivering Palm)
- Weapon Adept (if Qinggong Monk is chosen also can't replace Timeless Body and Perfect Self)
I approve.
I have a question: Any mentioning of Champion of Irori soon?
Odd how I was coming here to ask the same thing!
Great guide, really. It has all the necessary infomartions without being too long.
There is one Feat you could possibly add: "Accelerated Drinker", it enables you to drink a potion as a move instead of a standard action.
It may not be all that usefull for most monks but I guess it's a nice alternative for Drunken Masters that don't have the 18 CON you need for "Fast Drinker" (I'll probably use it this way) and it also works for potions.
How you can actually use Accelerated Drinker depends on your DM, since the description only mentions potions but I guess using this feat for booze would be less of a gamebreaker then drinking potions as swift action with Fast Drinker.
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Marid Style: You gain one additional Elemental Fist attempt per day. While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier, and your reach with your unarmed strike increases by 5 feet.
You colored this orange (for worthless); I've bolded the part which explains why it should be dark blue -- this is a gimme for a flurry specialist, especially a high-WIS Monk of the Four Winds (who gets Elemental Fist at 1st level, and is pretty much going to pick one of the four elements to specialize in, as well as a Style chain to go with it).
-- This is flurrying with reach-weapons without any of the penalties of reach-weapons (i.e., your unarmed strikes can't be disarmed or sundered, foes can't "step inside your reach", etc). Never again will you be screwed out of a Flurry by monsters all standing 15' apart.
All of the elemental Style chains are at least "good" for high WIS MotFWs, as they grant the ability to dish out barbarian-level full-attack damage for three or four rounds a day by mid-level. (A well-built Marid monk will turn a roomful of people into Popsicles before they know what hit them; he's then able to deal with them one at a time as they break out of the ice.)
I'm not sure this is as great as you make it out to be. It says "while using this style and Elemental Fist", so it seems to me as if you would only have reach when using Elemental Fist. And Elemental Fist is limited to one attack roll per round, so a flurry of cold reach attacks wouldn't exist, the way I'm reading this.Marid Style: You gain one additional Elemental Fist attempt per day. While using this style and Elemental Fist to deal cold damage, you gain a bonus on cold damage rolls equal to your Wisdom modifier, and your reach with your unarmed strike increases by 5 feet.You colored this orange (for worthless); I've bolded the part which explains why it should be dark blue -- this is a gimme for a flurry specialist, especially a high-WIS Monk of the Four Winds (who gets Elemental Fist at 1st level, and is pretty much going to pick one of the four elements to specialize in, as well as a Style chain to go with it).
-- This is flurrying with reach-weapons without any of the penalties of reach-weapons (i.e., your unarmed strikes can't be disarmed or sundered, foes can't "step inside your reach", etc). Never again will you be screwed out of a Flurry by monsters all standing 15' apart.
All of the elemental Style chains are at least "good" for high WIS MotFWs, as they grant the ability to dish out barbarian-level full-attack damage for three or four rounds a day by mid-level. (A well-built Marid monk will turn a roomful of people into Popsicles before they know what hit them; he's then able to deal with them one at a time as they break out of the ice.)
I think its one where you would definitely need to ask your DM. I think the comma makes it arguable that the reach is a separate function of the feat that is not necessarily tied to Elemental Fist. However, its equally arguable that it is tied to Elemental Fist. /shrug
On a side note, any thoughts on how much the recent monk errata improved the class? Looks as though a lot of the major resistances are covered now, though obviously not all. Certainly it seems to be a nice boon for the unarmed monk.
For what its worth, I actually agree with your interpretation. I simply say its arguable because it seems odd to only apply it to Unarmed Strikes (ironically Elemental Fist does not require an unarmed attack) and the comma creates a second clause.
The point being that designers are not exactly William F Buckley when it comes to language and thus they often use language that doesn't exactly follow what their intent/FAQ rulings state. The Crane Wing/Snake Fang thread is a good example -- though a bit different from here since Wing utilized language that isn't exactly defined in Pathfinder.
As for the usefulness of the style, I think its potentially better for a Master of Many Styles since they would be able to combine it with Crane/Dragon/Snake/etc. By itself, I agree that the style is not overly impressive unless the devs make it clear that it does, in fact, increase your reach on Unarmed Strike independent of using Elemental Fist.
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I'm not sure (Marid) is as great as you make it out to be. It says "while using this style and Elemental Fist", so it seems to me as if you would only have reach when using Elemental Fist. And Elemental Fist is limited to one attack roll per round, so a flurry of cold reach attacks wouldn't exist, the way I'm reading this.
Even under a hardline interpretation, assume opponents 15 feet apart, you drop the "teetering" one first, then 5' and shoot an icicle through the other one's face for about 20pts of damage you'd otherwise not have the option of delivering. And then he rolls a fort-save or he's Entangled (meaning he doesn't go anywhere on his next turn, whereupon you 5' on your next turn and Flurry him into hamburger).
For a Monk of the Four Winds, Elemental Fist damage scales to 2d6 at 5th (and goes up another 1d6 every fifth level thereafter); at 5th level he can do 1d8+2d6+STR+WIS+(misc) on a single juiced punch, and has seven per day at his disposal (and if you can't do them more than once per round, then let's just say that "pacing yourself" is built-in). 2d6+WIS is probably around 2x to 2.5x normal damage at this point, averaging +10dmg for a WIS:16 monk, so it's like getting over half-a-dozen free crits a day.
Didn't check the thread (and it seems this post is something of necromancy), but this is the most recent general monk guide.
RE: Maneuver Master
Note that Flurry doesn't treat you as full BAB for attacks, just CMB. So it puts you behind on attacks from a normal monk.
Also you mention that you can use Reliable and Meditative Maneuver together, but you can't. They both take a swift action.
Note that Flurry doesn't treat you as full BAB for attacks, just CMB. So it puts you behind on attacks from a normal monk.
Not sure what you are trying to say here. Yes you are correct, but if you chose to be a maneuver master you generally don’t want to be attacking normally or you’d have chosen a different archetype and when you do you can still mix attacks and the maneuvers from flurry of maneuvers which imo more than compensates for the loss. Did you mean that you felt it should be specifically noted under flurry of maneuvers?
I can do that, after the current semester is over I’m thinking about revisiting the monk guide and touching it up. At that time I will read through the comments and start tweaking the guide. I also would like to add the race specific archetypes from the advanced race guide.
Also you mention that you can use Reliable and Meditative Maneuver together, but you can't. They both take a swift action.
Ouch that’s disappointing… I have always played that you could trade a standard action for a move action or a move action for a swift action but apparently that’s not the case. That was not meant to be a house rule but I’ve played that way so long I think I’ll have to add it now. Will plan to fix it in my future update. Let me know if you spotted anything else and check back around New Year’s hopefully I’ll have a link to a revised version.
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There are several other responses above I haven’t had time to read but I will in the future, I have both school and work so I really haven’t had time to do anything but when the semesters over I’ll be revisiting this thread and looking to do a fresh update on my guide so if anyone has any corrections or suggestions let me know and hopefully I’ll have an updated version ready for New Year’s, at least that’s my goal.
I meant for the purposes of the amount of attacks/maneuvers you can output in a full-attack. A standard monk at lvl6 has 3, while a MM still has 2. If all you do is maneuvers that can be subbed in for attacks, the standard monk can do it more often (though without the MM's other advantages) at some levels. The real advantage is in using standard action maneuvers in a flurry, but you roll less d20s anyhow.
I'll keep an eye out for more stuff. I'm playing a MM right now so I'll offer my perspective.
Update
So I spent so time updating and adding a few things to my guide. It now includes the following in addition to what was there:
- a brief description of each race from the advanced race guide
- a look at the seven race specific monk archetypes
- four functional but not necessarily optimized example builds at the end
- a couple minor alterations to color coding after having play with some of the abilities some more.
- a slight change to the color coding format for races
since I don't know any way to preserve the old link here is a new link to the updated version of the guide.
As always, constructive opinions are welcome. Let me know if you disagree with anything and, more importantly, give reasons why so I can look it over and make changes if needed.
might be helpful for the guide: someone seems to have assembled a list of all the possible monk archetype combinations a while back
also, elemental fist for people with dragon style/ferocity or of the 4 winds archetype would be a bit better than orange.
Actually I already had that as part of the guide though it'd have been nice to know about back when I made it originally xP
On a side note I also include the archetype combination possibilities for the racial archetypes in the advanced race guide which don't appear to be included in the threads you link.
Thank you though, maybe I'll look through it later to help me check to see if I made any mistakes on mine when I was doing.
@Adokas: Well you never know, I could, and the description and reviews were interesting, but before I'd think about incorporating it I'd have to buy it, read it, play with some builds, and finally do a write up that would probably need a separate section since it's a 3rd party publisher.
So while it's possible it wouldn't be for some time if at all. It does look interesting though so maybe, but I don't know if and/or when I might do. Certainly no time soon, I have other things I need to be focusing on atm.
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hey, have you seen the "judo master" monk? its uses newer feats (ki throw, enhanced ki throw, vicious stomp) meshes will the maneuver master. you can literally trip someone to death.
an example at level 6. Greater trip- AoO, Ki throw- vicious stomp AoO, when they stand use the AoO to trip, rinse and repeat,
also, I haven't looked to far into it, but at 14, you can gain Binding throw, as a swift action (after them taking the AoO and enhanced ki throw damage) you may grapple them, If it is possibly to trip them then, you can, trip-throw-grab-repeat. Just something I was brainstorming with. Been trying to make the monk work with combat maneuvers for a while, the judo master wasn't my Idea, but I have tweaked it some. (it works very well with Janni style/tempest)
Also, Perfect Strike cannot be used with temple sword, so the final build that you posted has some issues, unless I am missing something.
*sigh*
It appears you are correct, I didn't realize they spelled out only specific monk weapons that it could be used with, that's disappointing.
warning minor rant:
so the weapon adept, an archetype that is supposed to be specifically focused or being good with monk weapons, can only be use perfect strike for five monk weapons? What's the point in that exactly, to give them an ability they can't use most of the time? Stunning fist would be better at least getting a ki focus weapon would let you use it with whatever you wielded.
I sincerely hope that was a mistake and someone meant for them to be able to at least use it with whatever weapon they used with way of the weapon master. *shakes head*
/rant
Well, my opinion of perfect strike not withstanding, I don't need to change much, they just can't use perfect strike with their temple sword. That does hurt but they are still effective. I do agree though a similar build made using the hungry ghost monk may be better... depends on what you want to play, ki mystic has some fun support options but can't be used with hungry ghost monk, so it'd be more of a damage dealer then a blend.
I'll have to think about that and tweak the guide a little. I am however going to wait and see if any other problem crop up first. I'd prefer to only have to fix it once. Particularly since I have to add a new link every time I do.
hey, have you seen the "judo master" monk?...
No I haven't, I've seen ki throw used and thought a little about something similar but never fully pursued it, I'll have to look at and see how it shapes up if I can find it on the forums.
hey, have you seen the "judo master" monk? its uses newer feats (ki throw, enhanced ki throw, vicious stomp) meshes will the maneuver master. you can literally trip someone to death.
an example at level 6. Greater trip- AoO, Ki throw- vicious stomp AoO, when they stand use the AoO to trip, rinse and repeat,
also, I haven't looked to far into it, but at 14, you can gain Binding throw, as a swift action (after them taking the AoO and enhanced ki throw damage) you may grapple them, If it is possibly to trip them then, you can, trip-throw-grab-repeat. Just something I was brainstorming with. Been trying to make the monk work with combat maneuvers for a while, the judo master wasn't my Idea, but I have tweaked it some. (it works very well with Janni style/tempest)
You can't trip them with the AoO they provoke for standing up, but they do have the AC penalty for being prone on your AoO.
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Also, Perfect Strike cannot be used with temple sword, so the final build that you posted has some issues, unless I am missing something.*sigh*
It appears you are correct, I didn't realize they spelled out only specific monk weapons that it could be used with, that's disappointing.
warning minor rant:
so the weapon adept, an archetype that is supposed to be specifically focused or being good with monk weapons, can only be use perfect strike for five monk weapons? What's the point in that exactly, to give them an ability they can't use most of the time? Stunning fist would be better at least getting a ki focus weapon would let you use it with whatever you wielded.I sincerely hope that was a mistake and someone meant for them to be able to at least use it with whatever weapon they used with way of the weapon master.
I firmly believe that the intention was to use the feat with the weapon selected for weapon master, but at the time the apg came out, the only valid weapons for way of the weapon master were those monk weapons. Zen Archer was in the same book, and it did allow the feat to be used with bows.
It's no good for pfs, but it's perfectly reasonable to allow perfect strike to be used with the weapon chosen for way of the weapon master.
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So, after some reading and thinking, I decided to ask your opinion on two things. The first is going to be about variant racial abilities for both the Aasimar (Archon is +2 Con/Wis, Garuda is +2 Dex/Wis)and Tiefling (Oni is +2 Str/Wis/-2 Cha, and Qlippoth is +2 Str/Wis/-2 Int). This doesn't even include SLAs, which range from fantastic to meh.
The other is about alternative racial traits that add natural attacks. Don't natural attacks stack with Flurry by adding on as secondary attacks (-5 of lowest bonus). This brings into account that an Amulet of Mighty Fists also enhances these attacks, and are also counted for any feats that affect unarmed strikes, and thus potentially increasing damage output. At first level, a Tengu monk with Claw Attack instead of Sword Trained would make 5 attacks per full round action that would look like (without stat modifiers) -2/-2/-7/-7/-7.
As a Random thought, melee or support monks could potentially dip into cleric. With enough levels, domain strike could be useful as well (mmmm... bad touch cleric/monk). I understand that this is not the most effective dip, but worth a mention.
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Natural Attacks specifically do NOT stack with Flurry. It is a limitation of flurry of blows.
You can take Feral Combat Training to use your Unarmed Strike Damage with a natural weapon, and use that natural weapon in a flurry, but you can never Flurry+Natural Weapon.
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Domain strike is amazing if used properly. Interestingly enough you have asked a few questions rather specific to a buid I am currently running. Aasimar racial variants are really nice for making monks. Two bonus stats and no penalties, some useful spell like abilities and alternate racial traits as well as some interesting race specific feats.
I chose Aasimar (Plumiketh) for my sensei build. The +2 to both Dex and wisdom meant that he could dump str and have pure tanking stats that worked well with everything he could want to do, including attack.
See invisibility is always going to be a useful power and the duration is awesome. The only limitation is that it is a second level spell, so your cleric dip can't convert first level spells into see invisibilities via 'recharge innate magic'. But it is still awesome.
Here's a relevant link.
The thread needs an update since I didn't follow the exact plans of the later posts. But it's close.
Cleric/inquisitor can be a very effective dip if done right.
I just discovered something interesting: Monk of the Sacred Mountain trades Improved evasion for DR1/- +1/3 lvls after 9th, and
As a swift action, the monk can spend 1 ki point to double his DR until the beginning of his next turn.
Crane Style+Stalwart, anyone?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe rules for brass knuckles do not allow you to deal your unarmed monk damage as of the release of Ultimate Equipment, making them a horrible option for pretty much any situation. This might also affect your rating of the amulet of mighty fists (and by extension, the amulet of natural armor).
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe rules for brass knuckles do not allow you to deal your unarmed monk damage as of the release of Ultimate Equipment, making them a horrible option for pretty much any situation. This might also affect your rating of the amulet of mighty fists (and by extension, the amulet of natural armor).
At the moment, this is correct RAW. However, Sean K Reynolds thinks they should stack, and given the existence of the warpriest and brawler, who can both use enhanced damage with brass knuckles, it's ridiculous that monks cant.
That said, due to the existence of pummeling style, unarmed strikes are still better than brass knuckles using unarmed strike damage.
There is a tiny golden nugget hidden in Flurry of Maneuvers that is very often overlooked and might be worth including in the guide. It allows one to make standard action combat maneuvers as attacks when using the bonus maneuvers from FoM.
Dirty trick is normally a standard action. An 8th level MM will frequently end rounds with their opponents blind, sickened, and prone.
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Sooo... apparently the link has been dead for along time now but I never got on Google so I didn't know. Getting my Gmail for the first time in years I expected trash but had 20 or more share requests... umm, whoops?
So hopefully this fixes it. If not please let me know and I'll try again.