How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?
Something about the fact that you get it at level 1 and it grows as you level makes me think they intended it to be a rather crucial part of the class. I have a hard time believing they would have gone to that much effort for an occasionally useful side ability.
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Ciretose, it is my belief that many peonple don't know how to play a monk. They keep trying to play it like a martial character. Perhaps a thread dedicated to improving the monk should start with discussing optimizing the use of what's already there.I agree. Building a good monk and playing one well are difficult. That is one thing I never liked about them. They make new guys want to play them, but a new player is the last that should be trying it.
I agree 100% with this. A well played monk is a thing of beauty, a poorly played one is just sad.
Some people can't keep track of the different options and aren't creative team players.
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The problem is that while you can't use the other abilities all the time, they at least don't conflict with each other. FoB is, whether your like it or not, presented as a "key" ability of the monk. Unfortunately, so is fast movement and mobility in general. This is a direct conflict that causes confusion amongst those not already playing monks. You are failing to understand what the class looks like to a new player; this confusion is a problem for new people. Older players automatically pick which one they want to focus on and ignore the rest, but new players don't have the base knowledge of the system to be fully comfortable doing that.
They don't conflict.
It's the monk two step.
Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.
Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.
Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.
How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?Something about the fact that you get it at level 1 and it grows as you level makes me think they intended it to be a rather crucial part of the class. I have a hard time believing they would have gone to that much effort for an occasionally useful side ability.In your opinion, anything that a class gets at first level and which increases as the class goes up in level should always be useful?
Does that include Bardic Performance wrt Silence and Darkness spells? or casting wrt anti-magic areas? or weapon proficiencies wrt peace knots?
It doesn't always have to be useful, but it shouldn't be directly contradicted by other class abilities. In all of your examples, the counters came from other sources or very specialized effects that don't target specific classes directly. FoB gets cancelled out before you even get past the chart and description of class abilities. This causes unnecessary confusion that new players are not going to be in a position to understand.
Very well said, particularly in comparing flurry to wild shape.
They don't conflict.
It's the monk two step.
Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.
Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.
Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.
I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.
The monk is a different beast entirely. It has a number of passive abilities that give it outstanding defensive abilities, with one crucial exception. The bonuses to AC allow them to keep up with a fighter wearing medium armor, eventually, but fighters don't usually rely on AC alone; they rely on a combination of AC, HP, and a high BAB. Monk may get the AC, but they don't get the HP, and they only get the high BAB in situations where they also require the HP. Most of it's active abilities recognize that it relies on mobility more than raw power, all except Flurry of Blows, which runs counter to the whole defensive and mobile philosophy that informs the entire rest of the class. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if it was presented as just another ability among many, but it is presented as one of the abilities that you get at level 1, and supposedly remains relevant throughout your leveling. That makes it appear to be a "key" class ability which runs against just about every other ability presented. This makes for a very confusing setup for new players, especially when fast movement doesn't kick in until level 3, and all the other mobility abilities don't kick in until after level 1.
I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.Natural Spell is widely considered to be broken.
I hope this was sarcasm.
To me the problem with FoB really is two fold:
1)It really is unnecessarily complicated for what it adds to the class.
2)It's too easy for a new player to setup their character at level 1 expecting one style of play based on the FoB only to reach level 3 or higher and realize that this classes is nothing what they were expecting based on level 1, and that even with full BAB on FoB, you still run into issues of successfully hitting and surpassing DR at higher levels.
In the end, while FoB isn't a huge problem for someone who knows what kinds of things to be watchful of, simply moving it to an archetype removes almost all of the headaches surrounding the monk class, and doing so would not fundamentally change the core class. Seems like a reasonable trade off to me. I don't think FoB is bad; I just don't think it fits well with the rest of the core class. If nothing else, they should probably swap when the monk first gets fast movement and when the monk gets FoB. That way, people don't try to build a character around it with false expectations of what to expect.
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To me the problem with FoB really is two fold:
1)It really is unnecessarily complicated for what it adds to the class.2)It's too easy for a new player to setup their character at level 1 expecting one style of play based on the FoB only to reach level 3 or higher and realize that this classes is nothing what they were expecting based on level 1, and that even with full BAB on FoB, you still run into issues of successfully hitting and surpassing DR at higher levels.
In the end, while FoB isn't a huge problem for someone who knows what kinds of things to be watchful of, simply moving it to an archetype removes almost all of the headaches surrounding the monk class, and doing so would not fundamentally change the core class. Seems like a reasonable trade off to me. I don't think FoB is bad; I just don't think it fits well with the rest of the core class. If nothing else, they should probably swap when the monk first gets fast movement and when the monk gets FoB. That way, people don't try to build a character around it with false expectations of what to expect.
** spoiler omitted **
1. FoB isn't complicated. It's a full BaB TWF chain for free. There is no bookkeeping or variables, you just write the number from the chart and you are good to go.
2. What you call a problem I call a feature. The monk you play at first level is a very, very different animal than the monk you play at 5th, 10th, 15th level, etc...that is part of what I love about the class.
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Very well said, particularly in comparing flurry to wild shape.
They don't conflict.
It's the monk two step.
Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.
Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.
Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.
I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.
The monk is a different beast entirely. It has a number of passive abilities that give it outstanding defensive abilities, with one crucial exception. The bonuses to AC allow them to keep up with a fighter wearing medium armor, eventually, but fighters don't usually rely on AC alone; they rely on a combination of AC, HP, and a high BAB. Monk may get the AC, but they don't get the HP, and they only get the high BAB in situations where they also require the HP. Most of it's active abilities recognize that it relies on mobility more than raw power, all except Flurry of Blows, which runs counter to the whole defensive and mobile philosophy that informs the entire rest of the class. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if it was presented as just another ability among many, but it is presented as one of the abilities that you get at level 1, and supposedly remains relevant throughout your leveling. That makes it appear to be a "key" class ability which runs against just about every other ability presented. This makes for a very confusing setup for new players, especially when fast movement doesn't kick in until level 3, and all the other mobility abilities don't kick in until...
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?
As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.
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What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.
Actually, if we wanted to make all the martials happy, the ability to take a greater-than-five-foot-step + full round action would be a nice feat to put out there.
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.The problem with that is that it would lead to monks which absolutely kill arcanists below 7th level or so and would come close to doing so up to about 12th level.
Well, considering that Natural Spell is a 5th level feat, I would imagine that a feat that would allow say half movement and a full round action would be at least that and probably more like 7th or even 9th level. At that point, casters can fly and have a large number of other defenses to rely on. If they don't utilize any of them, they deserve the punishment they get. People complain that high level casters have no real threats; making a feat like this would be a good way for martial characters of all stripes to keep up, and monks especially would benefit from their improved speed.
Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.
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Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.
All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.
First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)
Second round flurry.
This is a synergy.
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Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.
First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)
Second round flurry.
This is a synergy.
The 'monk two-step' is not something that is always a viable option. Attempting to stun at 3/4 BAB is not my idea of a reliable tactic. Have you given no thought to a feat that would allow the monk to move half-speed and flurry?
Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.
First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)
Second round flurry.
This is a synergy.
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.Didn't you know it?
In Pathfinder, "a caster" means "an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies". Therefore the monk is a caster killer (any class is, since killing a wizard who doesn't cast spell isn't even a challenge, but that's what a monk do the best).
I want to play with your DM if he uses that definition. Every one that I've played with made their big bad casters actually use their intelligence to the fullest, just as I would expect any PC caster to do.
Things I'd like to see.
1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.
A low fort save isn't required. Neither Blur nor Contingency are insurmountable. As for the wizard's buddies? That's what my buddies are for.
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.
Blur and Contigency aren't insurmountable, but they can slow the monk down enough to cause him problems. And your buddies don't do much good if you're surrounded by all of his, while your's are all the other side of them, unless you mean that they might get to your body in time to recover it and hope they can find someone to raise you from the dead.
I like all of these except 6 and 7.Things I'd like to see.
1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.
Yeah 6 was an attempt to help make monk weapons more useful but I'm not 100% happy with it either. It's more of a starting point. 7 is a big one so I can see the reluctance there too.
Things I'd like to see.
1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.
I particularly like making FOB part of the ki pool, and adding fast movement to level 1. 6 would lose a lot of the flavor of the class, and 7 would probably be too much for most people to swallow, although it would definitely help with the MAD issue. The others are good; starting ki at level 1 or 2 would help a lot.
I particularly like making FOB part of the ki pool, and adding fast movement to level 1. 6 would lose a lot of the flavor of the class, and 7 would probably be too much for most people to swallow, although it would definitely help with the MAD issue. The others are good; starting ki at level 1 or 2 would help a lot.Things I'd like to see.
1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.
I did #2 because of how I changed FOB with #4. With that change I feel it needs some limitation. As for the rest... recipes can change and still have similar flavors.
Acrobatics doesn't help if you've already used your actions for the round, and your foes still get to go. Especially when there is no gaurantee that your Stunning Fist will work on your primary target, deliberately putting yourself in a situation where you are surrounded not only by people who can beat you to a pulp, but very possibly a very angry mage, is not particularly a great strategy.
What Ciretose mentioned is a valid and effective tactic in a lot of situations. The fact that it isn't effective in all situations is rather irrelevant.Acrobatics is a class skill for monks. It is just one of several ways the monk has available to get away from situations where the monk is surrounded by enemies.His point is to respond to this:
And your point is?All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.
First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)
Second round flurry.
This is a synergy.
I want to play in your campaigns if thats an effective tactic on a regular basis. Clearly the casters being run by your DM are failing in tactics 101 if that works routinely without the monk ending up as pulp.
It's very effective when you're fighting an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies, but it seems to be pretty rare in your game.
Yes, in my experience, stupid wizards tend to be rather rare. If you're going up against a sorcerer, sure it could work, but against a reasonably prepared wizard, it will usually end with a dead monk.
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It's very effective when you're fighting an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies, but it seems to be pretty rare in your game.Yes, in my experience, stupid wizards tend to be rather rare. If you're going up against a sorcerer, sure it could work, but against a reasonably prepared wizard, it will usually end with a dead monk.
99 times out of 100 the best strategy is to close on the caster. If you can get there you can either stun or grapple.
Monks have the best movement to get around BBEG’s buddies, and since fort is a low save for casters, it is usually the best move.
It is kind of like some fighters have good will saves, but you are going with the will save spell over the fort save spell, all things being equal.
Movement is the ability to pick who you fight, go around who you don’t want to, get away if you are getting in trouble.
Add to that the fact that a monk has all good saves and a high touch AC and 99 times out 100 the monk is going to try and close on the caster and either stun or grapple them.