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Monk 1.5


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew

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sunshadow21 wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:

This is what I don't understand. The monk gets feats without paying the prereqs. These feats are things like tripping, gappling, and disarming. They get enhanced movement. They get spell resistance, etc.

In fact, none of their abilities are useful all the time. They won't be using their enhanced movment or their ability to disarm or anything else all the time.
But, because their flurry which isn't useful all the time either is arbitrarily identified as the monk's signature ability? Why? Why is it a problem that flurry doesn't work all the time but its not a problem that trip, grapple, disarm, movement, etc. aren't useful all the time?
The answer is obvious. There is a befuddled idea that the most important thing a monk can do is roll to hits and as many to hits as posssible.
The problem is that while you can't use the other abilities all the time, they at least don't conflict with each other. FoB is, whether your like it or not, presented as a "key" ability of the monk. Unfortunately, so is fast movement and mobility in general. This is a direct conflict that causes confusion amongst those not already playing monks. You are failing to understand what the class looks like to a new player; this confusion is a problem for new people. Older players automatically pick which one they want to focus on and ignore the rest, but new players don't have the base knowledge of the system to be fully comfortable doing that.

How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?


Darkwing Duck wrote:
How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?

Something about the fact that you get it at level 1 and it grows as you level makes me think they intended it to be a rather crucial part of the class. I have a hard time believing they would have gone to that much effort for an occasionally useful side ability.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Clearly you and I have diametrically opposed views on this matter. I want the class to have cool stuff that always matters, instead of only being useful when basic buffs aren't in place. Would you also want the Barbarian's rage to be Enhancement so it won't stack?
This post confuses me. How is a movement speed that is in effect 24x7 NOT "cool stuff that always matters"?

Because as soon as Haste or similar is laid down its barely relevant anymore. You're no longer XX feet faster than the party. Hell, assuming the basic Haste example, until equivalent Monk 12 You're no longer faster than them at all.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Clearly you and I have diametrically opposed views on this matter. I want the class to have cool stuff that always matters, instead of only being useful when basic buffs aren't in place. Would you also want the Barbarian's rage to be Enhancement so it won't stack?
This post confuses me. How is a movement speed that is in effect 24x7 NOT "cool stuff that always matters"?
Because as soon as Haste or similar is laid down its barely relevant anymore. You're no longer XX feet faster than the party. Hell, assuming the basic Haste example, until equivalent Monk 12 You're no longer faster than them at all.

Its worth noting that Haste does not add to the character's base speed. Consequently, while the Monk's movement bonus adds to Acrobatics Jumping rolls, the extra movement from Haste does not.

And, except for some very niche corner cases, a Monk's movement bonus is much better (ie. more useful) than the movement increase from Haste.

Andoran

wraithstrike wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Ciretose, it is my belief that many peonple don't know how to play a monk. They keep trying to play it like a martial character. Perhaps a thread dedicated to improving the monk should start with discussing optimizing the use of what's already there.

I agree. Building a good monk and playing one well are difficult. That is one thing I never liked about them. They make new guys want to play them, but a new player is the last that should be trying it.

I agree 100% with this. A well played monk is a thing of beauty, a poorly played one is just sad.

Some people can't keep track of the different options and aren't creative team players.

Andoran

kyrt-ryder wrote:
At the very least Ciretose, would you be willing to change the Monk's speed increase from the current non-stacking enhancement bonus into a true increase like the Barbarian's? The two abilities have the exact same name for crying out loud.

This I agree with.


sunshadow21 wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?
Something about the fact that you get it at level 1 and it grows as you level makes me think they intended it to be a rather crucial part of the class. I have a hard time believing they would have gone to that much effort for an occasionally useful side ability.

In your opinion, anything that a class gets at first level and which increases as the class goes up in level should always be useful?

Does that include Bardic Performance wrt Silence and Darkness spells? or casting wrt anti-magic areas? or weapon proficiencies wrt peace knots?

Andoran

sunshadow21 wrote:


The problem is that while you can't use the other abilities all the time, they at least don't conflict with each other. FoB is, whether your like it or not, presented as a "key" ability of the monk. Unfortunately, so is fast movement and mobility in general. This is a direct conflict that causes confusion amongst those not already playing monks. You are failing to understand what the class looks like to a new player; this confusion is a problem for new people. Older players automatically pick which one they want to focus on and ignore the rest, but new players don't have the base knowledge of the system to be fully comfortable doing that.

They don't conflict.

It's the monk two step.

Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.

Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.

Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
How do you think FoB is presented as a "key" ability of the monk? Specifically, what is it in the monk class description that makes that the case? What choice of words?
Something about the fact that you get it at level 1 and it grows as you level makes me think they intended it to be a rather crucial part of the class. I have a hard time believing they would have gone to that much effort for an occasionally useful side ability.

In your opinion, anything that a class gets at first level and which increases as the class goes up in level should always be useful?

Does that include Bardic Performance wrt Silence and Darkness spells? or casting wrt anti-magic areas? or weapon proficiencies wrt peace knots?

It doesn't always have to be useful, but it shouldn't be directly contradicted by other class abilities. In all of your examples, the counters came from other sources or very specialized effects that don't target specific classes directly. FoB gets cancelled out before you even get past the chart and description of class abilities. This causes unnecessary confusion that new players are not going to be in a position to understand.


ciretose wrote:


They don't conflict.

It's the monk two step.

Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.

Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.

Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.

Very well said, particularly in comparing flurry to wild shape.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
ciretose wrote:


They don't conflict.

It's the monk two step.

Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.

Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.

Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.

Very well said, particularly in comparing flurry to wild shape.

I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.

The monk is a different beast entirely. It has a number of passive abilities that give it outstanding defensive abilities, with one crucial exception. The bonuses to AC allow them to keep up with a fighter wearing medium armor, eventually, but fighters don't usually rely on AC alone; they rely on a combination of AC, HP, and a high BAB. Monk may get the AC, but they don't get the HP, and they only get the high BAB in situations where they also require the HP. Most of it's active abilities recognize that it relies on mobility more than raw power, all except Flurry of Blows, which runs counter to the whole defensive and mobile philosophy that informs the entire rest of the class. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if it was presented as just another ability among many, but it is presented as one of the abilities that you get at level 1, and supposedly remains relevant throughout your leveling. That makes it appear to be a "key" class ability which runs against just about every other ability presented. This makes for a very confusing setup for new players, especially when fast movement doesn't kick in until level 3, and all the other mobility abilities don't kick in until after level 1.


Ok, we can all agree, i think, that monk is probably a broken character. To make it simple, it is. I have watched a player,mind you she has about 6 months of gaming under her belt, struggle with a monk. She had almost no ability to hit anything put in front of her. The dm restricted the game to just the core rules until recently. Once we had the advanced book, he allowed her to adjust her character to an archtype(zen master) and within a single session, she was able to finally show not just promise, she actually shined as a true combatant in her own right.

I do believe that the Fob is a key factor in the monk setup. It is what you set your entire combat strategy around for a monk, that is what makes it key. i do agree that making a monks BAB 1/1 is a horrible idea. The problem for monks lies in magical gear, basically armor and weapons. Yes its nice that you can use a weapon wth your flurry of blows and at low levels this seems to work out nicely, but once a monk gets up to a unarmed strike above a 1d8 the idea of wielding a weapon almost becomes pointless.

A good change would be a way to magically imbue a monks unarmed weapon and give them a magical deflection(or natural armor), i believe i've seen in some 3.5 books for Samuari characters a way for them to enchant there blades up through ritual, at the expense of gold. This i think could easily fix both of the monks major drawbacks in weapons and armor. By allowing them to train and meditate for 1 day per 1000 gp at a monestary, they can increase their armor or unarmed strike as if it were a magic weapon/armor. A monk must also then first have atleast a +1 before they could enhance themselves with a special ability. Then you can drop the monk ability to always consider a monks unarmed attack to be magical as long as it had a ki point.

This i believe could easily fix a good portion of what is broken with the monk. THe other part is that wisdom is realy the key stat to the monk so it should be added as a class feature that a monks attacks are adjusted by its wisdom(for ranged and melee) but not damage. That is still a strength attribute. A monk is about precisely hitting an opponent, not just overpowering an opponent. This is why a monk gets breaks on attacks that go beyond just bashing an opponents head in.


sunshadow21 wrote:
I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.

Natural Spell is widely considered to be broken.

sunshadow21 wrote:


The monk is a different beast entirely. It has a number of passive abilities that give it outstanding defensive abilities, with one crucial exception. The bonuses to AC allow them to keep up with a fighter wearing medium armor, eventually, but fighters don't usually rely on AC alone; they rely on a combination of AC, HP, and a high BAB. Monk may get the AC, but they don't get the HP, and they only get the high BAB in situations where they also require the HP. Most of it's active abilities recognize that it relies on mobility more than raw power, all except Flurry of Blows, which runs counter to the whole defensive and mobile philosophy that informs the entire rest of the class. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if it was presented as just another ability among many, but it is presented as one of the abilities that you get at level 1, and supposedly remains relevant throughout your leveling. That makes it appear to be a "key" class ability which runs against just about every other ability presented. This makes for a very confusing setup for new players, especially when fast movement doesn't kick in until level 3, and all the other mobility abilities don't kick in until...

Fighters stick in one place and swing a weapon all day long. Monks aren't suppossed to do that. Monks are suppossed to move around. Monks get a high movement, acrobatics, high jumping, dimn door, etc. to do this. Fighters don't. People have got to stop comparing fighters to monks - they are apples and oranges. FoB is not a key ability, it is an ability the monk has available for limited situations, just like their Improved Trip (to pick one example of the possible feats they can select at level 1) is available in limited situations.

I, for one, don't think the Monk is confusing to new players. I think its confusing to people who have been playing awhile, but not a long while. That's because new players aren't stuck in the rut of just parking their figure somewhere on the battle mat and leaving it there all combat long. They haven't had the time to develop these kinds of bad habits. When a new player sees that a Monk has skills like Acrobatics or feats like Improved Trip or expanded movement, they are prone to use them. A player who has been playing a bit longer (but not long enough to develop real skill with the game system) has had time to learn these bad habits - habits which are incompatible with the monk design. A new player can grasp pretty quickly the idea of tumbling to an enemy and tripping them, then, in the following round, flurrying (the enemy being prone makes it easier to hit). A player who has been playing a bit longer (but not long enough to develop real skill) keeps trying to compare the fighter to the monk - apples and oranges.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.

Natural Spell is widely considered to be broken.

I hope this was sarcasm.


To me the problem with FoB really is two fold:
1)It really is unnecessarily complicated for what it adds to the class.

2)It's too easy for a new player to setup their character at level 1 expecting one style of play based on the FoB only to reach level 3 or higher and realize that this classes is nothing what they were expecting based on level 1, and that even with full BAB on FoB, you still run into issues of successfully hitting and surpassing DR at higher levels.

In the end, while FoB isn't a huge problem for someone who knows what kinds of things to be watchful of, simply moving it to an archetype removes almost all of the headaches surrounding the monk class, and doing so would not fundamentally change the core class. Seems like a reasonable trade off to me. I don't think FoB is bad; I just don't think it fits well with the rest of the core class. If nothing else, they should probably swap when the monk first gets fast movement and when the monk gets FoB. That way, people don't try to build a character around it with false expectations of what to expect.

tangent based on druid comparison:
As for Natural Spell, it's perfectly reasonable. Wild shape has enough limitations, in both 3.5 and PF, that as long as the DM is reading and enforcing the limitations, screening which shapes are allowed, and having any local population react appropriately to exotic and bizarre forms, being able to cast spells in that form for the cost of a feat is fine. It only gets broken when the DM abdicates control of the game and NPC's reactions to the player running the druid.

Andoran

sunshadow21 wrote:

To me the problem with FoB really is two fold:

1)It really is unnecessarily complicated for what it adds to the class.

2)It's too easy for a new player to setup their character at level 1 expecting one style of play based on the FoB only to reach level 3 or higher and realize that this classes is nothing what they were expecting based on level 1, and that even with full BAB on FoB, you still run into issues of successfully hitting and surpassing DR at higher levels.

In the end, while FoB isn't a huge problem for someone who knows what kinds of things to be watchful of, simply moving it to an archetype removes almost all of the headaches surrounding the monk class, and doing so would not fundamentally change the core class. Seems like a reasonable trade off to me. I don't think FoB is bad; I just don't think it fits well with the rest of the core class. If nothing else, they should probably swap when the monk first gets fast movement and when the monk gets FoB. That way, people don't try to build a character around it with false expectations of what to expect.

** spoiler omitted **

1. FoB isn't complicated. It's a full BaB TWF chain for free. There is no bookkeeping or variables, you just write the number from the chart and you are good to go.

2. What you call a problem I call a feature. The monk you play at first level is a very, very different animal than the monk you play at 5th, 10th, 15th level, etc...that is part of what I love about the class.

Cheliax

sunshadow21 wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
ciretose wrote:


They don't conflict.

It's the monk two step.

Run a long way, generally charging, and stunning fist. Next round you flurry.

Monks don't have a "key" ability. The only classes that have a "key" ability is the rogue sneak attack (which I am trying to correct in the other thread) and maybe the barbarian rage.

Flurry is to the monk what wild shape is to the druid. A key feature, but by no means the whole of what it does.

Very well said, particularly in comparing flurry to wild shape.

I would disagree with that comparison. Wild shape works fine with all the other active druid abilities. It takes a feat, but otherwise spellcasting and wild shape are perfectly compatible with each other. The animal companion is it's own separate thing that is equally compatible.

The monk is a different beast entirely. It has a number of passive abilities that give it outstanding defensive abilities, with one crucial exception. The bonuses to AC allow them to keep up with a fighter wearing medium armor, eventually, but fighters don't usually rely on AC alone; they rely on a combination of AC, HP, and a high BAB. Monk may get the AC, but they don't get the HP, and they only get the high BAB in situations where they also require the HP. Most of it's active abilities recognize that it relies on mobility more than raw power, all except Flurry of Blows, which runs counter to the whole defensive and mobile philosophy that informs the entire rest of the class. This wouldn't be as big of a problem if it was presented as just another ability among many, but it is presented as one of the abilities that you get at level 1, and supposedly remains relevant throughout your leveling. That makes it appear to be a "key" class ability which runs against just about every other ability presented. This makes for a very confusing setup for new players, especially when fast movement doesn't kick in until level 3, and all the other mobility abilities don't kick in until...

What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?


Mergy wrote:
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?

As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.

Cheliax

sunshadow21 wrote:
Mergy wrote:
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?
As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.

Actually, if we wanted to make all the martials happy, the ability to take a greater-than-five-foot-step + full round action would be a nice feat to put out there.


sunshadow21 wrote:
Mergy wrote:
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?
As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.

The problem with that is that it would lead to monks which absolutely kill arcanists below 7th level or so and would come close to doing so up to about 12th level.

Cheliax

If the arcanists aren't finding ways to protect themselves with mage armour, shield, blur, difficult terrain, flight, other magic, then they deserve to be killed.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Mergy wrote:
What if there was a feat that allowed extra movement + flurry?
As long the requirements were reasonable, that would be one solution. The biggest difference between wild shape w/spellcasting and FoB w/fast movement would have been removed, and those who wanted more synergy between class ablities would have a way to get it.

The problem with that is that it would lead to monks which absolutely kill arcanists below 7th level or so and would come close to doing so up to about 12th level.

Well, considering that Natural Spell is a 5th level feat, I would imagine that a feat that would allow say half movement and a full round action would be at least that and probably more like 7th or even 9th level. At that point, casters can fly and have a large number of other defenses to rely on. If they don't utilize any of them, they deserve the punishment they get. People complain that high level casters have no real threats; making a feat like this would be a good way for martial characters of all stripes to keep up, and monks especially would benefit from their improved speed.


Mergy wrote:
If the arcanists aren't finding ways to protect themselves with mage armour, shield, blur, difficult terrain, flight, other magic, then they deserve to be killed.

Every one of which a low level monk can easily overcome except flight (which can still be overcome with a little more work and which the GM has to set up the encounter so that flight is possible as a defense).


sunshadow21 wrote:
At that point, casters can fly

Many encounters take place in places where fly isn't a viable defense (eg. underground or in forests or in buildings).

sunshadow21 wrote:
People complain that high level casters have no real threats

Actually, it is the Schrodinger's Wizard, not the high level caster which has no real threats.


Togomor is a Schrödinger's Wizard?


Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.


GâtFromKI wrote:
Togomor is a Schrödinger's Wizard?

A hotel?

Andoran

sunshadow21 wrote:
Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

Cheliax

ciretose wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

The 'monk two-step' is not something that is always a viable option. Attempting to stun at 3/4 BAB is not my idea of a reliable tactic. Have you given no thought to a feat that would allow the monk to move half-speed and flurry?


Darkwing Duck wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
Togomor is a Schrödinger's Wizard?
A hotel?

He's a high-level wizard from curse of the crimson throne. A Pathfinder monk can't do anything against him, even if he begin the fight in melee range and has a surprise round.

I guess it's because his spell list is the same as Schrödinger's wizard.


ciretose wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
Flight is still a legitimate defense in many scenarios, and arcane casters would still have other defenses that can even the fight sufficiently to keep them alive long enough to get their offensive spells off. Also, from the prospective of a DM, having a martial character that could more easily serve as the big bad at high levels would be a welcome change. Bear in mind, we're not talking super low levels here, more like mid to high levels where arcanists almost never use all of their daily spell slots anyway because they have access to enough high level spells that they can end a fight without requiring the use of the lower level spell slots. This would also reward the arcanist/party that used strategy and tactics rather than simply charging forward blindly. In the end, it would force arcanists to change tactics and spells used, but that is a good thing, and they would still have plenty of defenses to fall back on, especially since they can run away to fight another day, and change their selected defenses in the process. Having a feat that blended movement and full round actions at around 7th level would simply balance the field.

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.


sunshadow21 wrote:
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.

Didn't you know it?

In Pathfinder, "a caster" means "an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies". Therefore the monk is a caster killer (any class is, since killing a wizard who doesn't cast spell isn't even a challenge, but that's what a monk do the best).


GâtFromKI wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.

Didn't you know it?

In Pathfinder, "a caster" means "an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies". Therefore the monk is a caster killer (any class is, since killing a wizard who doesn't cast spell isn't even a challenge, but that's what a monk do the best).

I want to play with your DM if he uses that definition. Every one that I've played with made their big bad casters actually use their intelligence to the fullest, just as I would expect any PC caster to do.


sunshadow21 wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:
You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.

Didn't you know it?

In Pathfinder, "a caster" means "an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies". Therefore the monk is a caster killer (any class is, since killing a wizard who doesn't cast spell isn't even a challenge, but that's what a monk do the best).

I want to play with your DM if he uses that definition. Every one that I've played with made their big bad casters actually use their intelligence to the fullest, just as I would expect any PC caster to do.

I'd like to play with him too! -especially if he uses the "full move and full attack" rule being proposed here. There's just no way I'd want to play a wizard in it.


Things I'd like to see.

1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.


sunshadow21 wrote:


You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.

A low fort save isn't required. Neither Blur nor Contingency are insurmountable. As for the wizard's buddies? That's what my buddies are for.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:


You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.
A low fort save isn't required. Neither Blur nor Contingency are insurmountable. As for the wizard's buddies? That's what my buddies are for.

emphasis's mine.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:


You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.
A low fort save isn't required. Neither Blur nor Contingency are insurmountable. As for the wizard's buddies? That's what my buddies are for.

Blur and Contigency aren't insurmountable, but they can slow the monk down enough to cause him problems. And your buddies don't do much good if you're surrounded by all of his, while your's are all the other side of them, unless you mean that they might get to your body in time to recover it and hope they can find someone to raise you from the dead.


illuminar wrote:

Things I'd like to see.

1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.

I like all of these except 6 and 7.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
illuminar wrote:

Things I'd like to see.

1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.

I like all of these except 6 and 7.

Yeah 6 was an attempt to help make monk weapons more useful but I'm not 100% happy with it either. It's more of a starting point. 7 is a big one so I can see the reluctance there too.


sunshadow21 wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
sunshadow21 wrote:


You seem to be forgetting the wizard's buddies who gets to act in between those two steps. As well as assuming that every wizard is going to have a low fort save/AC. And the fact that you are putting a lot of enemies between you and your own support. And spells like blur and contigency. While it's not a bad strategy occasionally, relying on it on a regular basis is a suicide wish.
A low fort save isn't required. Neither Blur nor Contingency are insurmountable. As for the wizard's buddies? That's what my buddies are for.
Blur and Contigency aren't insurmountable, but they can slow the monk down enough to cause him problems. And your buddies don't do much good if you're surrounded by all of his, while your's are all the other side of them, unless you mean that they might get to your body in time to recover it and hope they can find someone to raise you from the dead.

Acrobatics is a class skill for monks. It is just one of several ways the monk has available to get away from situations where the monk is surrounded by enemies.

As for blur and contingency slowing the monk down, yes..and your point is? Did you expect any class to have a sure fire tactic that wins in all situations?


Darkwing Duck wrote:
Acrobatics is a class skill for monks. It is just one of several ways the monk has available to get away from situations where the monk is surrounded by enemies.

His point is to respond to this:

ciretose wrote:

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

And your point is?


illuminar wrote:

Things I'd like to see.

1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.

I particularly like making FOB part of the ki pool, and adding fast movement to level 1. 6 would lose a lot of the flavor of the class, and 7 would probably be too much for most people to swallow, although it would definitely help with the MAD issue. The others are good; starting ki at level 1 or 2 would help a lot.


sunshadow21 wrote:
illuminar wrote:

Things I'd like to see.

1. Keep 3/4 BAB.
2. Make FOB cost a ki point
2. Make ki = to level + WIS
3. Start fast movement at level 1
4. Allow FOB attacks between movements. In effect it could be like pounce on steroids. *A special restriction would be that you have to plan your route before moving. For example - I attack the goblin 10 feet in front of me once, the orc 10 feet to the left of him twice and the giant 20 feet up once. During a FOB you do not provoke an AOO from any of your "targets" but you do provoke from non-target as normal.
5. Allow using a ki point to bypass armor or make an opponent flat-footed to you only.
6. Drop increased unarmed damage - Replace with monk weapon training a la fighter weapon training. Allow WIS bonus to be added to attack and damage in lieu of STR/DEX, charge a ki point to stack them.
7. Apply WIS to all saves, like the paladin CHA bonus, but staggered. Select one save at level 5, one at 10 and one at 15. Unlike the Paladin who is divinely protected, the monk must master it over time. Alternatively this could be in a tree with the monk AC bonus, allowing the monk to pick a save at level one, and take the increased AC later.
8. Add a tad bit more supernatural stuff. Example – use ki to make ranged unarmed attacks.

I particularly like making FOB part of the ki pool, and adding fast movement to level 1. 6 would lose a lot of the flavor of the class, and 7 would probably be too much for most people to swallow, although it would definitely help with the MAD issue. The others are good; starting ki at level 1 or 2 would help a lot.

I did #2 because of how I changed FOB with #4. With that change I feel it needs some limitation. As for the rest... recipes can change and still have similar flavors.


GâtFromKI wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Acrobatics is a class skill for monks. It is just one of several ways the monk has available to get away from situations where the monk is surrounded by enemies.

His point is to respond to this:

ciretose wrote:

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

And your point is?

What Ciretose mentioned is a valid and effective tactic in a lot of situations. The fact that it isn't effective in all situations is rather irrelevant.


Acrobatics doesn't help if you've already used your actions for the round, and your foes still get to go. Especially when there is no gaurantee that your Stunning Fist will work on your primary target, deliberately putting yourself in a situation where you are surrounded not only by people who can beat you to a pulp, but very possibly a very angry mage, is not particularly a great strategy.


Darkwing Duck wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:
Acrobatics is a class skill for monks. It is just one of several ways the monk has available to get away from situations where the monk is surrounded by enemies.

His point is to respond to this:

ciretose wrote:

All of this is a moot point. Again, monk two step.

First round run up to the caster and stunning fist (low ac + low fort save=good for monk)

Second round flurry.

This is a synergy.

And your point is?
What Ciretose mentioned is a valid and effective tactic in a lot of situations. The fact that it isn't effective in all situations is rather irrelevant.

I want to play in your campaigns if thats an effective tactic on a regular basis. Clearly the casters being run by your DM are failing in tactics 101 if that works routinely without the monk ending up as pulp.


It's very effective when you're fighting an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies, but it seems to be pretty rare in your game.


GâtFromKI wrote:
It's very effective when you're fighting an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies, but it seems to be pretty rare in your game.

Yes, in my experience, stupid wizards tend to be rather rare. If you're going up against a sorcerer, sure it could work, but against a reasonably prepared wizard, it will usually end with a dead monk.

Andoran

sunshadow21 wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
It's very effective when you're fighting an unprotected wizard who doesn't cast spells and without buddies, but it seems to be pretty rare in your game.
Yes, in my experience, stupid wizards tend to be rather rare. If you're going up against a sorcerer, sure it could work, but against a reasonably prepared wizard, it will usually end with a dead monk.

99 times out of 100 the best strategy is to close on the caster. If you can get there you can either stun or grapple.

Monks have the best movement to get around BBEG’s buddies, and since fort is a low save for casters, it is usually the best move.

It is kind of like some fighters have good will saves, but you are going with the will save spell over the fort save spell, all things being equal.

Movement is the ability to pick who you fight, go around who you don’t want to, get away if you are getting in trouble.

Add to that the fact that a monk has all good saves and a high touch AC and 99 times out 100 the monk is going to try and close on the caster and either stun or grapple them.

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