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I have a question about the spell "aspect of the falcon" (advanced player's guide).
The spell state that the critical treath and multiplier of bows and crossbows became 19-20 x3. The spells also says that this bonus is not cumulative with other conditions that increase critical treath of a weapon.
This is clear if you have a bow (critical 20 x3) but a crossbow? This spell doesn't enanche the treath, just the multiplier. So, you can benefit from this spell bonuses and something that increase the treath?
I have a question about the spell "aspect of the falcon" (advanced player's guide).
The spell state that the critical treath and multiplier of bows and crossbows became 19-20 x3. The spells also says that this bonus is not cumulative with other conditions that increase critical treath of a weapon.
This is clear if you have a bow (critical 20 x3) but a crossbow? This spell doesn't enanche the treath, just the multiplier. So, you can benefit from this spell bonuses and something that increase the treath?
My reading is that it specifically changes it to 19–20/×3 and does not stack with things like Keen or Improved Critical.
Your longbow or shortbow changes from 20/x3 to 19–20/×3.
Your crossbow changes from 19–20/×2 to 19–20/×3.
Even though the crossbow threat range did not change, the spell will still not stack with Keen or Imp Crit.
Make sense?
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I have a question about the spell "aspect of the falcon" (advanced player's guide).
The spell state that the critical treath and multiplier of bows and crossbows became 19-20 x3. The spells also says that this bonus is not cumulative with other conditions that increase critical treath of a weapon.
This is clear if you have a bow (critical 20 x3) but a crossbow? This spell doesn't enanche the treath, just the multiplier. So, you can benefit from this spell bonuses and something that increase the treath?
From my reading of the spell, it appears to set the crit range/multiplier to 19-20/x3 no matter what it was.
Aspect of the Falcon
School transmutation (polymorph); Level druid 1, ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level
You take on an aspect of a falcon. Your eyes become wide and raptor-like, and you grow feathers on the sides of your head. You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19–20/×3. This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
I think you are both right, but for a moment I thinked "ehy, something very useful for crossbows!".
I believe that if someone with improved critical crossbow used this spell, they'd have 17-20/x3. Such effects don't stack, but rather the highest applies.
But I can see the way others have read it.
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I believe that if someone with improved critical crossbow used this spell, they'd have 17-20/x3. Such effects don't stack, but rather the highest applies.
But I can see the way others have read it.
+1
Basically all rules that say things "don't stack" mean that you overlap the effects. Sucks for the Bow (though they save on keen?), nice for the crossbow (but they're already an underdog).
So, you have improved critical (light crossbow).
You have a 17-20/x2 weapon.
You put on the bracers.
The feat is suppressed until the bracers are removed?
So, you have improved critical (light crossbow).
You have a 17-20/x2 weapon.
You put on the bracers.
The feat is suppressed until the bracers are removed?
I just thought of that too. That's very so much against the philosophy of Pathfinder. If your abilities are made useless, it's usually not done slyly, as would be done here.
I would expect that if the spell doesn't change the threat range, then there's no reason to invoke the "can't stack" clause. So IMO, it works just fine alongside Improved Critical (crossbow).
Although that IS what using a longbow with improved crit and wearing these would do, making...well one of them mostly useless (as far as crit range / multiplier changing goes).
Hmmm.
I'd say with a xbow with keen and the spell you have to chose whether you want 19-20x3 or 17-20x2.
edit: and you have to chose before shooting.
I'd say with a xbow with keen and the spell you have to chose whether you want 19-20x3 or 17-20x2.
edit: and you have to chose before shooting.
But what of a Crossbow with Improved Critical and this spell? Same thing? Choose either the spell or the feat? Not real "Pathfinder-y".
Actually, it would allow a Crossbow to become 17-20/X3 (if it were already 19-20 to begin with). Here's why...
Let's look at a character that has a Heavy Crossbow for a primary weapon. The stats on the crossbow in terms of criticals already state that it is a 19-20/X2.
If I were a Ranger who used this weapon and cast this spell upon myself (or had the bracers equipped for 24 hours), its effects would equate to 19-20/X3.
Now, what does the exception rule state again? It says this:
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.
Look at the bolded and italicized part; does this spell alter the threat range of the Crossbow? No, it does not. The spell adjusts the Critical Multiplier of the Crossbow from X2 to X3, not adjust the Threat Range from 20 to 19-20.
Therefore, a Keen property or the Improved Critical feat would stack with this spell on a Crossbow weapon due to its threat range being unchanged by the spell.
Ironically, if I were a 20th level Fighter with the Bracers equipped and using a Crossbow as my primary weapon, I could bump the Crossbow up to be a 17-20/X4 with this:
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example).
Have fun with your new Crossbow essential Magic Item!
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Have fun with your new Crossbow essential Magic Item!Actually, it would allow a Crossbow to become 17-20/X3 (if it were already 19-20 to begin with). Here's why...
Let's look at a character that has a Heavy Crossbow for a primary weapon. The stats on the crossbow in terms of criticals already state that it is a 19-20/X2.
If I were a Ranger who used this weapon and cast this spell upon myself (or had the bracers equipped for 24 hours), its effects would equate to 19-20/X3.
Now, what does the exception rule state again? It says this:
This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon, such as the Improved Critical feat or a keen weapon.Look at the bolded and italicized part; does this spell alter the threat range of the Crossbow? No, it does not. The spell adjusts the Critical Multiplier of the Crossbow from X2 to X3, not adjust the Threat Range from 20 to 19-20.
Therefore, a Keen property or the Improved Critical feat would stack with this spell on a Crossbow weapon due to its threat range being unchanged by the spell...
I think you are wrong. I think the wording is intentional. If you have keen/improved crit then the magic item does not work. It says it doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of the weapon it does not say it must expand the threat range to do so. If you have both you can only use one.
does this spell alter the threat range of the Crossbow?
Yes, it sets it to 19–20/×3.
does this spell alter the threat range of the Crossbow?Yes, it sets it to 19–20/×3.
The RAW does not say that. It says this:
You gain a +3 competence bonus on Perception checks, a +1 competence bonus on ranged attacks, and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3.
By RAW, it adjusts the "Critical Multiplier" of Bows and Crossbows. For Bows, it changes the Threat Range to 19-20; for Crossbows, it changes the Multiplier from X2 to X3, when you compare the Critical status of the standard weapons from when they are amplified by this spell.
As I have linked above, it says "This effect [the critical multiplier adjustments] does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon." In addition to this, I have correlated that the adjustment in Multipliers for a Crossbow from X2 to X3 only affects the number used to multiply damage.
The spell does nothing to change its threat range (which is the condition required in order for effects such as the Improved Critical Feat or the Keen Property on a weapon to not stack).
This means that a character using both this spell (or magic item correlated with it) and a Keen Crossbow or Improved Critical (Crossbow) feat would have their final Critical Status update turn to 17-20/X3. Quite a broken combination, albeit a combo allotted by RAW.
Through these measures, the only reason I could possibly see the effects not stacking (, even though through RAW, both correlatory and directly stating such,) is for game balance, which is nothing more than a case of RAI, which holds no grounds in determining how a rule works when there is an authentic, no-contradiction correlation taken from utilizing direct statements from the books and conjoining them together which can be used within a PFS Scenario (the general standard for "legal" content regarding a character and their possessions and conquests).
Unless a Developer comes in and makes claims to the Spell needing an Errata about that statement and correlation (which is doubtful since the intent and interpretation is clearly and distinctly worded), that is how it would be ruled in a PFS game, where the RAW is the LAW.
All it does is make the crossbow have the same critical multiplier as the bow and the threat range of the bow the same as the crossbow...
It works for slightly different ways for each weapon but both gain something out of it over all.
...and the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19-20/x3
Simple if you don't over think it or try and put cheese slices on it.
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By RAW, it adjusts the "Critical Multiplier" of Bows and Crossbows.
"the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19–20/×3."
You're saying by RAW, it only changes the multiplier, not the threat range. Which means if you use a bow, there's no change at all to either the threat range (which the spell doesn't change) or the multiplier (which was already x3).
Even though reading it this way cripples the spell and is clearly not the intent, and is an extremely questionable interpretation (since the spell text conflicts with itself), that still doesn't cause it to stack.
"This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon"
Is Keen the same effect as the spell? No.
Does Keen expand the threat range of a weapon? Yes.
This means Keen is an 'other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon'. This means Keen does not stack with the spell, regardless of what the spell does.
By correlating the rule as written with the aforementioned clearly stated intent of the spell, you can conjoin the adjustment of the amplification set by this condition to heretofore utilize the specification of legal rules in PFS, resulting in authentic double-plus agreement across all platforms.
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By correlating the rule as written with the aforementioned clearly stated intent of the spell, you can conjoin the adjustment of the amplification set by this condition to heretofore utilize the specification of legal rules in PFS, resulting in authentic double-plus agreement across all platforms.
Unfortunately, you forgot to calibrate the transrulsification device using the correct quantum quasirelational screwdriver, so you're wrong.
By RAW, it adjusts the "Critical Multiplier" of Bows and Crossbows."the critical multiplier for your bows and crossbows becomes 19–20/×3."
You're saying by RAW, it only changes the multiplier, not the threat range. Which means if you use a bow, there's no change at all to either the threat range (which the spell doesn't change) or the multiplier (which was already x3).
Even though reading it this way cripples the spell and is clearly not the intent, and is an extremely questionable interpretation (since the spell text conflicts with itself), that still doesn't cause it to stack.
"This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon"
Is Keen the same effect as the spell? No.
Does Keen expand the threat range of a weapon? Yes.This means Keen is an 'other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon'. This means Keen does not stack with the spell, regardless of what the spell does.
By correlating the rule as written with the aforementioned clearly stated intent of the spell, you can conjoin the adjustment of the amplification set by this condition to heretofore utilize the specification of legal rules in PFS, resulting in authentic double-plus agreement across all platforms.
I used the quote so as to retain to the RAW. Technically, the spell does nothing to adjust the Critical Multiplier of Bows, but instead for Crossbows. The general term should be "Critical Status" going by what it individually grants both Bows and Crossbows.
No. A Bow (and Comp Bow) only crit on 20 and deal X3. The spell adjusts this to make it 19-20/X3 for all Bows. The Crossbow crits on 19-20, but only has a X2 multiplier. The spell adjusts this to make it 19-20/X3. Notice how the spell (in regards to the Crossbow) changes nothing in terms of its Threat Range. The Spell makes no expanding of the Crossbow's threat range, since its base is 19-20 as it is. It only increases the Critical Multiplier from X2 to X3, but this is a factor completely independent of how often a weapon deals a critical strike.
The spell's restriction with it stacking with Keen or Improved Critical feats are that the weapon does not expand in its critical threat range. With what the spell provides with the Crossbow, it grants no such expansion in its base threat range, nor its adjusted threat range (or technically lackthereof); thusly, a Keen Crossbow or Improved Critical (Crossbow) would stack with this spell to deliver a 17-20/X3 (or if you are a 20th Fighter with Weapon Mastery, 17-20/X4).
I don't see how this is hard to understand. The Crossbow's threat range is not adjusted at all with the spell, only its multiplier, which does not conflict with the condition stated for Keen and Improved Critical to not stack, therefore they should stack.
If you have a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, and then later get a +6 enhancement bonus to strength while still possessing that +4 enhancement bonus, you do not stack them. You use the +6 one since that's the highest. Even though the +4 enhancement bonus obviously means you don't stack them, you still get the +6 enhancement bonus while under whatever effect gave that. I believe that it's the same deal here. You pick the best bonus.
I can still see both sides though, and both arguments have merit. FAQ? :)
The general term should be "Critical Status" going by what it individually grants both Bows and Crossbows.
That part of the spell has one effect: It sets the "Critical Status" or whatever you want to call it to 19–20/×3. That effect (Setting Critical to 19–20/×3) doesn't stack with Keen.
Keen is an 'other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon'. This means Keen does not stack with the spell, regardless of what the spell does.
In order to stack, either Keen is not an other effect but the same effect (clearly false) or it doesn't expand the threat range of a weapon (also clearly false). This means Keen does not stack with the critical modification of Aspect of the Falcon.
To work like you want, it would have to be written differently. Perhaps like this:
By splitting the critical modification into two parts, the stacking exception can be applied only to the threat range, which would allow the multiplier to still be increased when a different threat expansion effect is in place.
Just to help out as this evolves:
Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.
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I believe that if someone with improved critical crossbow used this spell, they'd have 17-20/x3. Such effects don't stack, but rather the highest applies.
But I can see the way others have read it.
I can see how you can read it your way, but I suspect the RAI is that a crossbow would benefit from the increased threat range or the increased critical, not both.
I don't think that giving a crossbow a threat range of 17-20/x3 if you have Aspect of the falcon and improved critical will be unbalancing, but there is a general assumption that you can't get 2 critical increasing effects at the same time, and an exception to that should be more explicit than what we see in the text of Aspect of the falcon.
Hmm, a similar issue would be the following. If there's an ability that set the threat range to be one die roll lower than normal (so a 18-20 weapon would become a 17-20 weapon) and doesn't stack with other effects, and you have Improved Critical in that 18-20 weapon type, would it become 15-20 as normal, or would it stay as 17-20?
The general term should be "Critical Status" going by what it individually grants both Bows and Crossbows.That part of the spell has one effect: It sets the "Critical Status" or whatever you want to call it to 19–20/×3. That effect (Setting Critical to 19–20/×3) doesn't stack with Keen.
Keen is an 'other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon'. This means Keen does not stack with the spell, regardless of what the spell does.
In order to stack, either Keen is not an other effect but the same effect (clearly false) or it doesn't expand the threat range of a weapon (also clearly false). This means Keen does not stack with the critical modification of Aspect of the Falcon.
By splitting the critical modification into two parts, the stacking exception can be applied only to the threat range, which would allow the multiplier to still be increased when a different threat expansion effect is in place.
It doesn't have to be written differently. The spell only changes the critical status of bows and crossbows to the set amount. The spell also specifically states that the effect which adjusts said statistics of bows and crossbows does not stack with other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon.
For Crossbows, the spell does not expand the threat range; in fact it is kept the same, unaffected by the spell, the only change is its multiplier becomes X3, a factor independent from a weapon's threat range. This means that because the spell does not expand (or even adjust at all) the threat range of a crossbow that the effects of Keen or Improved Critical would apply. Let's take a look at my further example of a level 20 Fighter with his ability and the bracers.
The Weapon Mastery feature says it bumps up the multiplier by 1, meaning if the wielder was using the bracers in conjunction with his feature, by your ruling, they would not stack as not only do you consider the Multiplier of a Weapon a part of its Threat Range, which is listed as an independent stat of a weapon apart from the subject that "restricts" it, but also the multiplier would not bump up to X4, since you would consider both effects as part of something that increases the threat range, which is stated to not stack due to the spell.
With what is said above, are you saying that's what would happen, regardless of what (other) effect is given, because the concept of the Threat Range of a Critical combines both the Multiplier and the number needed to roll for confirmation?
That's a bunch of bulls***. Why should fighters get Improved Critical feats or Keen weapons when their level 20 feature renders feats useless, which is nearly 100% against the design intent of that feature?
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Darksol this has nothing to do with fighters and their powers. Regardless of if the spell changed the crit multiplier or the threat range it says that it doesn't stack with spells and effects that change the threat range. This doesn't mean that two different effects don't stack only that this spell doesn't stack.
A fighter and his feats/powers have nothing to do with what this spell says expect to point out that they don't work with the spell either.
While it's true that you don't stack them, what you do do is choose the best effect, according to the rules.
Even adding that line to the spell is odd, as setting the threat range is really strange and not well represented in the rules elsewhere. At some level, it's not even really possible to stack with this since it claims to set the range, rather than expand it. Which I suppose is a good reason for it not to be 17-20/x3, but that comes with all sorts of oddities.
The funny thing is that when I first saw this spell (I thought it'd be 17-20/x3 then too), I thought "damn, that'd be nice to get permanent. But no one would do make that kind of item..."
Just a heads up: The Falcata has a 19-20/x3 critical hit range without any buffs. Not sure if it's relevent but... (And people say Exotic Weapon Proficiency is a waste...)
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You know there is something wrong when people start talking about "cheese" over an option that allows a crossbowman to actually start enjoying his carreer choices.
That's just damn common sense ; the same way Qinggong didn't receive an answer about it being able to stack with other archetypes.
It it unbalanced in any way ? Objectively, are the rules cristal clear and not conflicting with another reasonable interpretation ?
Then just let it be.
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Supposedly this question was answered in A FAQ, but I searched all of them without any luck.
Would somebody mind pointing this undead hunting crossbowman in the right direction?
https://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9u3g
I know this a bit late. Just in case some else like me looks for the same thing.