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Cure Light Wounds, the arcane way...


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

So to get this absolutely straight.

A witch, being an arcane caster (no matter what partron she follows), is unable to operate a wand of CLW, or benefit from a scroll... the spell is on her class list, but she is using the wrong 'flavor' of magic (yeah, there's always UMD, I know).
On the other hand, she'd be completely fine to zap a bardic CLW wand, or use a scroll written by a bard for casting that spell (or uploading it into her familiar).

Is it just me, or does this feel... strange.

Bonus points for the fact that about every time an item containing a spell available to both realms of magic is encountered in an adventure, the authors did not deem it necessary to state whether it it of the arcane or the divine type.

Or, is this problem just the case with scrolls; wands and the like working perfectly fine?


so you know the bible, and someone gives you a paragraph and asks you the meaning, only it is in a language whose signs you can't even decipher... what use is it that you know the bible?

Just think that arcane is written in draconian and divine in a mix of celestial and abyssal or ... latin.


Midnight_Angel wrote:

So to get this absolutely straight.

A witch, being an arcane caster (no matter what partron she follows), is unable to operate a wand of CLW, or benefit from a scroll... the spell is on her class list, but she is using the wrong 'flavor' of magic (yeah, there's always UMD, I know).
On the other hand, she'd be completely fine to zap a bardic CLW wand, or use a scroll written by a bard for casting that spell (or uploading it into her familiar).

Is it just me, or does this feel... strange.

I am unclear why this is a problem specific to the witch... the bard has the same problem, as do other arcane/divine classes with crossover spells. It just comes with the territory.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
I am unclear why this is a problem specific to the witch... the bard has the same problem, as do other arcane/divine classes with crossover spells.

It isn't specific to the witch. It just appeared to me in that case, that to me, the healing abilities of a witch 'feel' more druid-like than akin to the bard's.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Midnight_Angel wrote:
A witch, being an arcane caster (no matter what partron she follows), is unable to operate a wand of CLW,
Midnight_Angel wrote:
Or, is this problem just the case with scrolls; wands and the like working perfectly fine?

Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.


Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.

I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).

Except in the case of scrolls, however, PF doesn't make a distinction between the two.

I.E. I agree with Paz.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).

Is there any text to support this view?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).
Is there any text to support this view?

Yes ... it's called the CRB. Look up the rules of wand use. There are quite a few spells that cross the arcane/divine boundary, If your class can use the spell, you can use the wand.

Dark Archive

scrolls are the only ones that specify the arcane/divine differences. They are also the only spell completion style magic items.

Wands ( and staves for that matter) are both spell trigger items. To use them you only need to have the spell in your class list.

Here is the relevant section on scrolls for this:

Quote:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.


  • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
  • The user must have the spell on her class list.
  • The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Marathon Voter 2013, Dedicated Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).
Is there any text to support this view?
Yes ... it's called the CRB. Look up the rules of wand use. There are quite a few spells that cross the arcane/divine boundary, If your class can use the spell, you can use the wand.

The view for which Cheapy asked for supporting text was Stynkk's, which was contradicting Paz's, which you seem to agree with, yet you stated your agreement in such a way as to seem at first to be agreeing with Stynkk.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

As others have said, wands make no distinction between arcane and divine. In our home games we've always ignored the distinction for scrolls too. There aren't many of the AP's/modules that say if scrolls found are arcane or divine, so we just ignore it. If its on your spell list you can use it.

Liberty's Edge

Flagged for FAQ ...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).
Is there any text to support this view?
Yes ... it's called the CRB. Look up the rules of wand use. There are quite a few spells that cross the arcane/divine boundary, If your class can use the spell, you can use the wand.
The view for which Cheapy asked for supporting text was Stynkk's, which was contradicting Paz's, which you seem to agree with, yet you stated your agreement in such a way as to seem at first to be agreeing with Stynkk.

Head 'splodes.

Shadow Lodge

Okay, so if I'm reading this right, Midnight Angel, you are saying you feel witches should be casting divine spells more like a druid instead of a bard (or some arcane and some divine)? I'm ignoring all the talk about spell trigger and completion items since it was just part of the example. The actual question was this right?

Midnight_Angel wrote:
Is it just me, or does this feel... strange.

Liberty's Edge

As others have pointed out, witches can use clw wands.

That said, if you house ruled witches to casting their spells as divine spells rather than arcane spells, it would buff the class a fair bit, you could probably balance it, maybe by taking away a hex or 2. . .


Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.

The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.
Wands wrote:
The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp.

Caster type has nothing to do with it.

The Exchange

Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.

this is for guidelines for wand creation... if you are getting your wand from a Bard crafter the wand costs less than if you get it from a Paladin crafter - unless you feel that the wand usable by a Paladin are different from those usable by a Cleric?


Cheapy wrote:
Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.
Wands wrote:
The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp.
Caster type has nothing to do with it.

Agreed the table of costs merely clarifies what the base price of a wand made by a certain class is based on that formula


Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.

The difference in crafting price is due to the required level for casting spells. For example, to make a second level spell into an item, a sorcerer must be 4th level, while the wizard only needs to be third. It cost more for the sorcerer due to the crafting cost formula ( spell level x caster level x gold amount ). For the sorcerer, caster level will always be 1 level higher than a wizard, causing a slight increase in cost for the sorcerer to craft. The problem is much worse for 3/4 or 1/2 casters like bards and rangers.

In short, ther IS a difference based upon class type, BUT, not on casting type(arcane vs divine)

Edit
("In short" statement does not apply to scrolls, they are an exception)
/Edit

Others have already covered what I was going to say about the difference between scrolls and every other magic item. No point in typing the same thing.

Star Voter 2013

Jiggy wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Stynkk wrote:
Paz wrote:
Wands are spell trigger items, and the PRD says 'Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.' So any wand of CLW can be used by a witch; there is no distinction between arcane and divine.
I disagree with this... if you find a cleric's wand of CLW (divine) then the spell is not on the Witch's spell list. CLW (Arcane) is not the same as CLW (divine).
Is there any text to support this view?
Yes ... it's called the CRB. Look up the rules of wand use. There are quite a few spells that cross the arcane/divine boundary, If your class can use the spell, you can use the wand.
The view for which Cheapy asked for supporting text was Stynkk's, which was contradicting Paz's, which you seem to agree with, yet you stated your agreement in such a way as to seem at first to be agreeing with Stynkk.

Your view on Cheapy's reference to the text written by Stynkk's was incorrectly viewed by LazarX as Paz's endorsement of the opposite of Midnight Angel's view which is thrice removed from the context that it was originally conceived.


Glutton wrote:


*snip*

Your view on Cheapy's reference to the text written by Stynkk's was incorrectly viewed by LazarX as Paz's endorsement of the opposite of Midnight Angel's view which is thrice removed from the context that it was originally conceived.

Eh?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.

Note this:

PRD wrote:
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

There is a difference in the cost to make a item for the creator, but the sale price don't change.

I usually amend that with unless the difference in spell or caster level make an actual difference in what the magic item do but that is nor RAW, ROI at most.
With the new classes like the magus this can make a few problems haste for is a second level spell for them, so all the haste wands become immediately cheaper) but that is a separate problem.

When put into an object (barring scrolls) magic become "source" neutral, i.e. it stop being arcane or divine.
Actually even cat magic is source neutral, as you don't have a way to see if a active spell source was arcane or divine.

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kierato wrote:
Glutton wrote:


*snip*

Your view on Cheapy's reference to the text written by Stynkk's was incorrectly viewed by LazarX as Paz's endorsement of the opposite of Midnight Angel's view which is thrice removed from the context that it was originally conceived.

Eh?

Glutton has the aura of confusion Supernatural ability.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Stynkk wrote:
Happler wrote:


There is no such text for spell trigger items like wands and staves.
The text exists in the different wand costs for the different classes. This implies that there is a difference based upon the creator's casting type and class type.

It's a different cost because different classes have different minimum levels to cast the spell in question. You have to be a 6th sorcerer to craft a wand of fireball and that's the minimum level you can set the wand to. As opposed to a wizard who can do it at 5th.


The wand of cure X wounds can be arcane, it's just that the one in the book isn't.


Blue Star wrote:
The wand of cure X wounds can be arcane, it's just that the one in the book isn't.

Nope. Wands aren't arcane or divine; such distinctions hold no mechanical meaning for them.


KrispyXIV wrote:


Nope. Wands aren't arcane or divine; such distinctions hold no mechanical meaning for them.

QFT

Notice how there is no listing in the item tables for arcane or divine wands, even if the spell shows up on both arcane or divine lists. Also notice how in an adventure or module the treasure gained from an encounter never indicates whether a wand is arcane or divine. Thats because wands are not arcane or divine.

In 3.5 the random item tables for creating treasure included a roll for scrolls to determine whether it was an arcane or divine scroll (70% chance it was arcane). There was no such roll for wands or staves.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
nosig wrote:
this is for guidelines for wand creation... if you are getting your wand from a Bard crafter the wand costs less than if you get it from a Paladin crafter - unless you feel that the wand usable by a Paladin are different from those usable by a Cleric?

I would just like to point out a 4th lvl Paladin is still only a 1st lvl caster (Paladin level -3). So not all wands made by a paladin will be more, for instance, a wand of Lesser Restoration made by a paladin would only be 750. ;)

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