hi all.
still new to GMing PF, and i've decided i quite like the idea of an NPC who specializes in tripping to challenge my wily PCs with... just wanted to know if i am ruling it correctly.
we are using the core rulebook only at this stage, though i can house rule things if i really need to. he would be a 6th level fighter, (to qualify for greater trip) and his feats would be -
combat expertise
combat reflexes
improved trip
greater trip
lunge
weapon focus
weapon specialization
improved initiatve
assuming he won initiative, am i right in saying he would be able to advance to 15' away from his target, (armed with a guisarme) activate lunge, trip his target, get an attack of opportunity from greater trip, then take a 5' step so he still threatens the PC on the ground once his turn ends (thus removing the benefits of lunge, yes?)
so when the PC stands up, hes able to get an AOO. if the PC decides to advance on him, he gets another AOO. (moving out of a threatened square) if the PC backs away without making a withdraw (which i think is a full round action?) he can also make an AOO.
can i make a trip as an AOO?
is lunge worthwhile? it seems limited in its use because it only extends reach during your turn - so you can trip people that you'll no longer threaten once lunge ends, not that helpful. was thinking i could switch it to agile manuvers and go with a dex build, to give him better initiative and AC. without having to make him too MAD.
it seems kinda... cheesy :)
If you want to make a trip fighter, Start with heirloom weapon: Horsechopper, and wield one. It's +2 to trip, and as a trip weapon you apply polearm master to it.
1) Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (to be replaced @ 4 with Spring Attack), Dodge
2) Combat Expertise
3) Mobility
4) Whirlwind attack
5) Improved Trip
6) Greater Improved Trip
7) Lunge
Str: 18 (21 by this point) Dex/Int: 14 Wis/Con: 12 Chr: 7 on 20 points.
Now in addition to AOOing people to trip, at 6, you can whirlwind everyone within 10 feet (15 feet @ 7), taking -3 on the trivial touch attack if they are within 5 feet. Yes you can AOO as trip, and polearm master gets +1 on these (+2 @ 7).
It's a great build, especially if a friendly Mage enlarges you so you hit everyone within 25 feet with a trip :).
Mostly right. A couple of little errors, though.
First, you cannot take a 5' step if you move at all in a round. So you can't advance, trip, then step. Advancing and tripping or stepping and tripping is obviously fine.
The advantage to lunging with a reach weapon is that, for a medium sized opponent, they are going to have to stand, then move through (rather than 5' step out of) your threatened area. That gives you an attack of opportunity, and thus a chance to re-trip.
Which bleeds into your next question. Standing does provoke an attack of opportunity. However, it does not count as "moving" for the round, thus allowing for a 5' step. A 5' step doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, so they would be able to move up and attack you with impunity.
You can indeed trip as an AoO. It is important to note, however, you cannot trip a prone opponent. That means that, when someone tries to stand up, you can't use your attack to re-trip them. Makes it a bit harder to trip-lock someone.
Is lunge worth it? Sort of. It slightly improves your ability to annoy PCs. However, it seems like unless this guy has some back-up or he is only facing 1 or 2 PCs, that is all he can do. As soon as someone gets through, or they decide to just start shooting at him, he is toast.
Switching to a dex build could work, though then you ABSOLUTELY need backup for him. He is already spending most of his time keeping people down, so lowering the damage on his few actual attacks would make him an annoyance rather than a threat.
There is nothing cheesy here. While tripping seems really powerful, you will find it isn't as great as it seems on paper. A failed trip attempt, someone using Acrobatics to get through your threatened area, or any other little problem can throw off your entire combo. Once you are surrounded by pissed off adventurers, all the trip feats in the world aren't going to save you.
Dex build has mostly disadvantages (limited to spike chain if you want the "trip" keyword, needs weapon finesse AND an agile weapon to be fully online) but does maximize AOO capacity. If you're going to do this run the Manuevers Master monk out there and just hit with hands / feet; pick up an agile amulet around 4-5 (only 5K) and deal decent damage too.
Str: 7 Int: 7 Wis: 16 Dex: 20 (23 at this point) Con: 14 Chr: 7
1) Improved Trip, Agile Manuevers, Weapon Finesse
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Crane Style
5) Crane Stance
6) Greater Improved Trip
@ 6 you are going to have a trip of +19, which is incredible, and hit for d8+6 because of your agile amulet. You also have 7 AOOs, so anyone you hit gets slapped. You lack the range trick though; but that is a cost of this build. On the flip you just negate one attack per round, and will @7 AOO trip someone when you negate their attack, then AOO them because of improved trip.
Thalin wrote: Dex build has mostly disadvantages (limited to spike chain if you want the "trip" keyword, needs weapon finesse AND an agile weapon to be fully online) but does maximize AOO capacity. If you're going to do this run the Manuevers Master monk out there and just hit with hands / feet; pick up an agile amulet around 4-5 (only 5K) and deal decent damage too.
Str: 7 Int: 7 Wis: 16 Dex: 20 (23 at this point) Con: 14 Chr: 7
1) Improved Trip, Agile Manuevers, Weapon Finesse
2) Combat Reflexes
3) Crane Style
5) Crane Stance
6) Greater Improved Trip
@ 6 you are going to have a trip of +19, which is incredible, and hit for d8+6 because of your agile amulet. You also have 7 AOOs, so anyone you hit gets slapped. You lack the range trick though; but that is a cost of this build. On the flip you just negate one attack per round, and will @7 AOO trip someone when you negate their attack, then AOO them because of improved trip.
If you are going for a trip build with dex you got no need for Agile Manuevers as Weapon finesse fixes that part for you as you make trip as a part of an attack.
Sadly inaccurate (I did double-check). An attack and CMB are not the same thing;without agile Manuevers, your CMB is still Str-based.
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Thalin wrote: Sadly inaccurate (I did double-check). An attack and CMB are not the same thing;without agile Manuevers, your CMB is still Str-based. O RLY?
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Wow, that is not in the RAW. That makes Dexter much more appealing, and as a bonus feat you can take Improved Disarm to be funny. Pretty cool.
interesting, interesting!
thanks for all the rapid feedback folks. remember im trying to stick to the core rulebook only.
i did not know about the no 5' step if you have moved at all, will have to start enforcing that one.
i was also under the impression that leaving a threatened square was all that was needed to provoke an AOO. not getting an AOO when they stand up (if i were to use lunge) feels a bit like missing out, but i guess if they then choose to charge him he can try and trip again.
he would defintely be part of a team, with someone else(s) to deal damage. perhaps an archer or a wizard, or both. i see him as a bit of a defensive blockade, and with enough space the whole group can keep falling back, forcing the PCs to chase through his threatened zone repeatedly.
the PCs are a sword and shield fighter, a barbarian, and a rogue. so im not TOO concerned about their ranged options.
Thalin wrote: Wow, that is not in the RAW. Tell me about it. Apparently the definition of "bonus" as presented in the very first chapter of the Core Rules does not always apply. I hate the precedent this sets.
To be fair, I really really like that Weapon Finesse works for weapon-based maneuvers. I just hate that it's a (so-called) clarification of a rule that does not say that. Grrrrrr.
Oh well.
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Hi. So I like the idea of a trip fighter. My solution is a fighter (Pole Arm Master)/ alchemist (Vivisectionist). The result is, I think, pretty dang good. I originally built the below and posted it here last summer. The campaign I wanted to use him on never got started and he is still sitting around at fighter school, bemoaning his boring fate.
SCROLL DOWN TO SEE BUILD
Key tricks:
- Use alchemical allocation (alchemist extract) with a heroism potion (+2 to hit, +2 to saves, +2 to skill checks) with Extend Potion (doubles length). I buy a level 18 heroism potion. It will last for 180 min (10min/lvl) x2 (due to extend potion) for a total of 6 GLORIOUS HOURS of but kicking! That, alone is huge!
-Be a Half Elf and take Ancestral Arms: Fauchard. Fauchard is a pole arm with reach and trip AND an 18-20 critical range! Forget heirloom weapon... you want to be able to get a new weapon if needed!
-A level 4 alchemist can get a +4 to strength from his mutagen for 40 min! Not bad.
-As an alchemist, he can cast Enlarge Person on himself for 4 minutes (24 rounds of combat), 4 times per day (due to intelligence bonus). Who cares? Well, at higher levels, bad guys get big and become untrippable. Solution? Get big with them!
-Pole Arm Master allows you to use your polearm within your reach range
-Combat reflexes+decent dexterity. Here, I am planning on a Dex of 16 if one includes magic items
-Pole Arm Master + Sky High CMB of +30 means that you will have no trouble tripping foes even within 5 feet. A polearm master can short grip the weapon and at level 6 Fighter the penalty is only -3
-Fury's Fall! A feat. TAKE IT! Adds dex bonus to trip CMB!
The below build is set up for level 10. It assumes a 20pt. attribute buy.
I'd love to take Lunge earlier... need to think about that.
Some fun facts:
At level 10, he should have something like a +28 Trip CMB!
[+9(BAB)+9(Str)+3(Dex)+4(trip feats)+2(trip wep enchant)+1(trip wep focus)]
With enlarge person up, I hit 30!
That means, on average, I should be hitting 38-40 on my trip rolls.
Note that an Ettin (CR 6) only has a CMD of 23.
A Cloud Giant (CR11) only has a CMD of 37. With Enlarge person at level 10, this dude can resonably trip a storm giant! Pretty good, eh?
Achieves a decent will power save at level 10 with a +9
Does all of the above while actually having 4 worthwhile non-combat skills due to his 14 intelligence. In my case, I am role playing a tomb raider looking for lost Osirion artifacts. The 4 levels of alchemist will provide disable device, UMD, a craft skill, Knowledge: Nature (doubles as Heal due to Vivisectionist), Appraise.
DPR: Can cause huge amounts of damage with some critical feats. Crit range becomes 15-20. If you throw in AOO, things start to get silly. (note: assume enemy AC of 24 for the below)
DPR Full Round Attack: ~70... if you add Haste(10 rounds per day) this becomes ~109 and that is with no trip trickery!
DPR Full Round Attack with Sneak Attack: 125 Requires flanking... but good god, pretty good!
Here is where the damage gets really fun...
DPR Full Round Single Target Tripping Madness: 110!
Trip+1 iterative+2 AAO (trip AAO from greater trip + AAO from enemy standing up)
Throw in Haste and we get 150!
Throw in Enlarge Person and we get 169!
Throw in sneak attack (Vivisectionist) via flanking and we get a max potential single target DPR of 188!
(man, that seems high. I am using the DPR calculator I got off of these forums... if someone sees an error in my work, please let me know)
And if you are attacked by Multiple enemies? Well, you are a meat grinder. You then use your 4 AAOs (via combat reflexes and Dex bonus) to cause 2 trips and 2 AAOs followed up by your full round attacks. 188 DPR spread over your two targets.
Note again that with your ridiculously high CMB of +30, you can cause trips within 5 feet no problem even with a -3 to hit (6th level pole arm master)
AND when flanking he gets +2d6 sneak attack from vivisectionist. Which is amusing when coupled with the pole arm master ability that allows one to flank from any square he can reach.
Crap. I really want to find a pathfinder game now. Maybe if all of my friends get fired or something we can give it a shot.
THE BUILD
Class: Fighter(8)/Alchemist(4) [Fauchard]
Race: Half-elf
Str: 20 (10) (+2 from leveling)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 12 (2)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 12 (2)
Cha: 7 (-4)
Pole-Arm Master/Vivisectionist
Traits:
Tomb Raider (Perception/Dungeoneering)
Osirionologist (History/Engineering)
Perception (1): +8
Knowledge- Engineering (1): +7
Knowledge- Dungeoneering (1): +7
Knowledge- History (1): +7
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Ancient Osirion,
1: Fighter (1)
Feats: Power attack ; Combat Expertise ; Ancestral Arms: Fauchard
2: Fighter (2): Improved Trip
3: Fighter (3): Combat Reflexes
4: Fighter (4): Wep focus: Fauchard
5: Alchemist (1): Fury’s Fall
(sneak attack)
6: Alchemist (2): ---
Discovery: Spontaneous Healing
7: Alchemist (3): Greater Trip
(Knowledge: nature counts as heal)
8: Alchemist (4): ---
Discovery: Extend Potion
9: Fighter (5): Improved Criticals
10: Fighter (6): Critical Focus
11: Fighter (7): Weapon Specialization
12: Fighter (8): Bleeding Criticals
13: Fighter (9): Tripping Strike
14: Fighter (10): Lunge
15: Fighter (11): Furious Focus
16: Fighter (12): Wep Spec, Greater
17: Fighter (13): Dreadful Carnage
18: Fighter (14): Stunning Criticals
19: Fighter (15): Critical Mastery
20: Alchemist (5): -----
Saves:
-Fort: 16 [7(fi) +4(alc) +2(cop) +2(heroism) +1(con)]
-Ref: 17 [7(fi) +2(cop) +4(alc) +2(heroism) +2 (dex)]
-Will: 9 [3(fi) +1(alc) +2(cop) +2(heroism) +1(wis)]
AC: 25 [+10 (+1 Mithril Plate) + 2 (dex)+1(dex IOUN stone) +2 (natural armor-Mutagen)]
Gear:
+1 Mithril Plate (13.5k)
Boots of Speed (10k)
+2 Fauchard (8k)
+4 Belt of Giant Strength (16k)
+2 Cloak of resistance (4k)
+2 Ioun Stone of Dexterity (8k)
18th level Potion of Heroism (2.75k)
Note, by the way, that a level 10 fighter with 14 consitution PC has about 90 HP.
So, you can kill a level 10 fighter PC and reduce a second to 21 HP without sneak attacks. In one round.
And then, right before you finish the second one, you can give him a lecture on the history of architecture and dungeon creatures and the intersection with surfacing dwelling forest monsters.
All with a 25 AC (or 29 if you use the shield extract) and dang good saves.
Oddly need to make sure to have a 15 Int with that character; the mutagen reduces Int by 2 and turns off Improved/Greater Improved trip.
My advice to you...use the Variant for Fighter in the APG called Phalanx Fighter.
In the campaign I'm in now I am 7 Fighter and 1 Inquisitor using the Phalanx Soldier Variant. Its great! All you do is combine the Trip feats, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, 2 Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Shield Proficiency line to Shield Slam, and Felling Smash.
If you use the Guisarme you can reach (one handed) and if they get within your 5 foot zone where you don't threaten you can Shield Slam and knock them back 5 feet and then trip them. Felling Smash makes this even more awesome because all you have to do is hit with Power Attack and you get a free trip attempt against them...its damage AND a trip.
I love my character built this way.
Thalin wrote: Oddly need to make sure to have a 15 Int with that character; the mutagen reduces Int by 2 and turns off Improved/Greater Improved trip. Tricky! Good catch. That is kind of rough, actually... I guess what I might do is find a cheap magic item or something. Let me think about that.
EDIT: One potential solution is to just use the first atribute increase on Intelligence at level 4. That would fix it. Probably the easiest way to go.
Does delay the +2 to str until level 12, however...
Thalin wrote: Wow, that is not in the RAW. It's a subtle consequence of how Weapon Finesse works.
PRD wrote: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. and. . .
PRD wrote: Combat maneuvers are attack rolls So logically:
Quote: With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on combat maneuvers. I guess you learn something new every day (:
Thalin wrote: Oddly need to make sure to have a 15 Int with that character; the mutagen reduces Int by 2 and turns off Improved/Greater Improved trip. So, again, one solution is bumping intelligence at level 4.
That said, are you sure that what you are describing is how the rules work?
"Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat."
See, the character has intelligence 14 and so can TAKE combat expertise. The rules do not say he needs intelligence 14 to USE combat expertise.
Can you direct me to the rule which shows that lowering intelligence temporarily "turns off" feats? That seems incorrect to me:
1) The guy does not suddenly forget what he learned
2) This would be a huge pain to track in-game. Do PCs try lowering NPC intelligence to turn off abilities?
For example:
-Arcane Armor Training. If you are level 3 and get level drained, are you no longer able to wear the armor?
-Deadly Aim. Does this turn off if I poison you/get you drunk enough such that your Dex goes below 13?
-Eldritch Claws. Requires STR of 15. If I poison you and lower your strength, are your claws turned off? That seems silly.
The last example seems most egregiously wrong to me...
Ok. Mutagen dropping Intel is no problem on this build.
I cite the below discussion:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/featPrerequisitesAndStatusEffectsDoFeatsGetTurnedOff
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<cracking knuckles>
Half-Elf Fauchard-Master
Half-elf [Ancestral Arms]
STR+17 ...20pt
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:07
01 barb1 Move+10, Extra Rage (12r/day), EWP:Fauchard
02 monk1 [Flowing][Redirection][Improved Reposition]
03 fight1 [Weapon Master:Fauchard], Power Attack, Cleave
04 barb2 STR>18, [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon], Rage 14r/day
05 fight2 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
06 fight3 [Weapon Training+1:Fauchard]
07 fight4 Greater Trip, Finishing Cleave
Buy Gloves of Dueling and murder the party. (Read up on Flowing monk.)
Build progression: character is a neutral-evil mercenary who poses as lawful while infiltrating a Shelyn monastery to learn the arts of glaive-fighting; takes off after getting the basics and resumes his barbaric ways with a similar but deadlier weapon. Eschews graceful flurries for massive attacks against targets either rendered prone or nudged into a Cleave line-up via a Reposition maneuver taken as an immediate action when he was attacked by a PC.
Mike Schneider wrote: <cracking knuckles>
Half-Elf Fauchard-Master
Half-elf [Ancestral Arms]
STR+17 ...20pt
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:12
CHA:07
01 barb1 Move+10, Extra Rage (12r/day), EWP:Fauchard
02 monk1 [Flowing][Redirection][Improved Reposition]
03 fight1 [Weapon Master:Fauchard], Power Attack, Cleave
04 barb2 STR>18, [Uncanny Dodge][Reckless Abandon], Rage 14r/day
05 fight2 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
06 fight3 [Weapon Training+1:Fauchard]
07 fight4 Greater Trip, Finishing Cleave
Buy Gloves of Dueling and murder the party. (Read up on Flowing monk.)
Build progression: character is a neutral-evil mercenary who poses as lawful while infiltrating a Shelyn monastery to learn the arts of glaive-fighting; takes off after getting the basics and resumes his barbaric ways with a similar but deadlier weapon. Eschews graceful flurries for massive attacks against targets either rendered prone or nudged into a Cleave line-up via a Reposition maneuver taken as an immediate action when he was attacked by a PC.
I am so very glad I came back to reread this thread. Hilarious and clever. Let me think this through.
Be careful; that kind of build is capable of one-shotting PCs of similar level if you give him something like a Keen/Furious weapon. (Alternatively, if the PCs beat him, then somebody in the party is going have his schweet stuff -- i.e., he rolls a 2 for will-save when the 3rd-level wizard casts Glitterdust, and then they all gang-rush and stick him like a pig while he's blind.)
He'd make a great party-level -3 mook palace guard type of NPC. I.e., PCs are 10th, and there's a bunch of these 7th-level characters patrolling around. Any PC tag-teamed by two or more is in a world of hurt.
Has some one ever thought about the Pit Boss racial substitution for hobgoblin? (and all the apropiate feats for tripping) by Lvl 6 you are done and can select feats for disarm from there, you dont even have to worry about selecting feats for close combat mechanics with a polearm
Btw, is there a good Archetype for CM ?
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