Wouldn't 2 kukris be better than the scimitar/kukri combo as then both will gain all the spec and focus benifits with only the loss of 1 damage on average?.
Wouldn't 2 kukris be better than the scimitar/kukri combo as then both will gain all the spec and focus benifits with only the loss of 1 damage on average?.
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No.Buy going Scimitar/Cestus (early levels) and Scimitar/Kukri (once you can either TWF as a standard action via TWW or Rapid Attack with Mobile fighter/Dawnflower dervish) your best bet is to TWO HAND your scimitar when you move.
This gets you the 1 1/2 Str bonus and 1:3 damage ratio from power attack and is a hell of a lot more damage than 1 handinga kukri for your first 8 or 11 levels.
Once you can multi attack when you move (so getting both attacks, + Doubleslice and TWR), then wielding the same weapon is better. However that requires you to have either Put Wpn Fcs/Spec into a small weapon for 1/2 your career or to retrain.
And that is irrelevant for the TWW who can dual wield scimitars by 11 at the normal penalty anyway. Think long term.
I forgot to add that Risky Striker is only against enemies Large or bigger. So be sure to stack it with Big Game Hunter!
I'll look at it.
Initially sounds bad though. Two Weapon fighters have lower AC anyway (no shield, no armor training) so chucking another -5 to AC means your AC blows.Barbs get a similar ability with reckless abandon but they have 100+ more HP to soak the hits.
Great guide, but there's something I want to mention: Rapid Attack from Mobile Fighter & Dawnflower Dervish isn't just an inferior Pounce; it lets you make your attacks at any point during your movement, so you can move - attack - move - attack, and so on until you run out of movement or attacks. I'm currently researching ways to take advantage of this to basically move from enemy to enemy and inflict negative conditions on them.
Best way I can see for that to work is to use wounding weapons and put bleed on all of them.
Sorry for the Necro...
But You can choose either the reduced TWF Penalty OR wielding a One-Handed Weapon as a Light Weapon. Not both.
Looking at the viability of adding cleave and cleaving finish to the example builds.
Note that cleaving finish works with ANY hit that drops a foe. AND you can take a 5 foot step.
Also,
Keeping in mind the builds want to have high A.C and saves as well as versatile enchants
I still find the following to be the best weapons.
+5, Duelist- FG, Defending, Runeforged (Parasitic)
+5, Menacing, Courageous, Guardian,
Thoughts on the new enchants? I have not seen them all.
The Cleave Line is awesome regardless of build.
& Apparently I was wrong before. Seems my groups reading was off.
That's cool.
Getting Ravingdork to have a look. I looks good but may be more useful at low levels since later you get multiple attacks to split between foes.
The advantage of Cleave is you can use it earlier on when you must move to close in and all the Cleave/Great Cleave Attacks use your Highest BAB.
Although there is good information in the guide, the formatting is terrible. In some places it's all but unreadable. As it stands, the guide is not functional I'm afraid.
The tables need fixed is all...
Happy to give someone access if anyone who is a regular poster and rules savvy wants to co author.
I suck at formatting and what little time I have for PF now is mostly for PBP.
I still want to add a cleave build and a Quick Dirty trick build.
Not sure which version you are looking at. The Google link version is heaps better than the all text verion at the start of the thread.
The Tables are all messed up.
I might could help with Formatting and I am working on a Cleave Build.
Sweet. PM me your email and I'll add you as a contributor.
Two concepts that I think would be awesome to add.
Cleave build+ Dawnflower Dervish. Rapid attack allows for moving AFTER EACH ATTACK. This Could allow a great cleave build to take steps between every cleave attack maybe? Posting from my phone so not it a position to really work it out.
Also a Captain America build who main hanfs a shield/offhand cesti (both belong to close weapon group) combined with brawler archetype would be pretty awesome on damage, high AC and maneuvers. The attack debuff on enemies is sweet.
1) Dervish of Dawn (Name used to prevent Copyright/Trademark infringement) only allows for a Full-Attack it doesn't work with Cleave.
2) Cestus is both Singular and Plural it is one of the few Roman Names that is both IIRC. Either way this concept is excellent. I have used it before to great effect. Though It was before I seem the Brawler which makes it from Doable to Viable.
And a PM should be on its way.
Ok.
I apologize if this isn't the right thread for this question, but is mostly pertinent.
Awsome guide btw.
This char is being used from a player of mine and sometime from me as a DMPC, and i saw a lot of feats i overlooked,so i'm asking what do you think is the best feat choice for him, since he is 8 and we are becoming quite indecisive on how to go on.
Theodric
Male Human Fighter 8
N Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +6
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 27, touch 15, flat-footed 23 (+11 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 74 (8d10+16)
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities bravery +2
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Two-bladed sword both ends +14/+9 (1d8+8/1d8+8/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +2) +13/+8 (1d8+2/x3)
Special Attacks weapon training abilities (heavy blades +1)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 27
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-bladed sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Two-bladed sword), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Iron Will, Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Two-bladed sword), Weapon Specialization (Two-bladed sword)
Traits Adopted, Anatomist, Elven Reflexes
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +6, Escape Artist +1, Fly +1, Handle Animal +3, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Linguistics +1, Perception +6, Ride +7, Stealth +1, Survival +12, Swim +7
Languages Common, Kalhibite
Other Gear +2 Full plate, +1 Two-bladed sword both ends, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +2), Belt of giant strength +2, Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 5550 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Anatomist +1 to confirm critical hits.
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 to Will save vs. Fear
Two-weapon Defense +1 to AC while wielding 2 weapons. +2 when doing so defensively.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
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Power Attack. Maybe Improved Critical and Critical Feats if you like any of them.
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You have Str 18 and I see no power attack?
TWRend is freaking awesome.
At 9 you will be able to twf as a standard action. Moving will suck less but you lose the extra iteratives so you should start making them take AOO’s for moving away.
I would maybe go
9- PA
11- Pindown. Now ANY move, 5ft or withdraw let's you 2hand AOO.
12- Retrain TWDefense for Doubleslice and learn TWRend
With 10, 13
You could either go cleave and cleaving finish (granting you more 2 handed attacks) if you fight mooks alot.
Or
Deadly Display at 10 and Cornugan Smash
Will give you a decent ability to Intimidate (debuff) enemy attacks and saves.
Or
Normally I prefer Dazing Assault but since you chose a double sword.
Crit Focus at 10 and Staggering Crit at 13 would be good.
A staggered foe can only attack once (which sux compared to full attacking) or move away (which draws a 2handed AOO if you take PIN Down at 11)
Put 2 more ranks into Acrobatics will get you another +1AC for fighting Defensively.
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Just remember that Cleave and such only allows one weapon to attack when it is used. Though the Additional Attack by R.A.W. is usable with any weapon wielded.
Thankfully you took a good weapon for this style of Switching.
Side-Note: A Quarterstaff User with Quarterstaff Master would allow you a Shield though. So you could Switch between TWF, THF, and W&S Methods. Though it offers little other returns.
His build is pretty decent though purely a damage dealer.
Typically I like to have 2 different tricks, combat wise, to pull off.
Eg
TWF+Disarm or Trip and later retrain disarm or trip for Dirty trick.
TWF+Lockdown+AOO's
TWF+Shieldbash
TWF+Throwing
TWF+Eldritch Heritage
You have Str 18 and I see no power attack?
TWRend is freaking awesome.
9- PA
11- Pindown. Now ANY move, 5ft or withdraw let's you 2hand AOO.
12- Retrain TWDefense for Doubleslice and learn TWRendWith 10, 13
You could either go cleave and cleaving finish (granting you more 2 handed attacks) if you fight mooks alot.
Or
Deadly Display at 10 and Cornugan Smash
Will give you a decent ability to Intimidate (debuff) enemy attacks and saves.Or
Normally I prefer Dazing Assault but since you chose a double sword.
Crit Focus at 10 and Staggering Crit at 13 would be good.
A staggered foe can only attack once (which sux compared to full attacking) or move away (which draws a 2handed AOO if you take PIN Down at 11)
PA and TWrend are already on the list of what to take.
I don't understand the "retrain TWDefense for Double Slice" sentence,desn't he already have both?Can start considering other options once we get to Greater TWF and TWrend (around 12-13)
I missed that he already had Doubleslice.
Take PA at 9
10 take Pindown (so any move away provokes)
11-Critical Focus
12-Retrain TWD for Versatile Critical (Train for Bleeding) and learn TWRend
13-Defiant Luck(Train versatile crit for staggering)
14- Either Deadly Aim or Gtr Weapon Spl depending on how often the bow is used.
15-Inexplicable Luck(Train versatile crit for blinding)
16- Retrain Dodge for Penetrating Strike and Learn Greater Two weapon fighting.
I feel an idiot asking this, but i spent hours on every book i have (all of them) but i didn't read all of the campaign setting books or the companions.
Plus i looked the PF PRD and Herolab (of which i bought a lot of packages including all the newest ones) but i simply cannot find the Doublestrike feat you mentioned, so, where is it from?
Critical Versatility can be changed once per day. So if you know you are going to fight something immune to a status effect you can always retrain for another feat.
You might look into allow a 3.5 Feat called Perfected Two-Weapon Fighting. It grants the 4th Off-Hand Iterative Attack. It gets added to the Ranger's TWF Combat Style with the Greater TWF Feat but was designed to work with the caviat that came with the Ranger that they needed the Previous feats to use the higher ones.
Doublestrike isn't a Feat. It is a Two-Weapon Warrior Archetype Class feature.
What he said. Let's you twf (first attack each hand) as a standard action. Means you can move+twf and TWRend if both hit.
It is the primary reason that kukri, , scimitars are the better weapons for the Two Weapon Warrior archetype.
It is still worthwhile for a double sword.
You need to get KEEN on both ends of your weapon.
Then you will be able to crit 18-20 with +4 to the confirm
The twwarrior shines by pinning foes and getting multiple opportunities to crit with keen weapons.
The other option is Dazing Assault but the save is not too hard so you need pindown to generate extra AOO's so you can force multiple saves per round.
Seemed weird, the fact is i don't like archetypes and almost never read them.
Improved Critical is better if you can squeeze the feat in.
Rapiers are excellent if you go the Weapon Finesse Route.
Anyone play with the Dawnflower Dervish? I was thinking for support feats to have the Dodge/Mobility supported by Critical feat chain since I would be dual wielding Scimitars.I'd like to throw Power attack in there somewhere along with the "staple" two weapon fighting feats.
Race would be Human.
Dawnflower Dervish is doable as a TWF Build but the Problem is it becomes M.A.D. as you can't use Dervish Dance with it.
Just letting people know I have added a few paragraphs at the start about the differences between Pouncer and Lockdown Builds.
I have also added the Brawler Archetpye to the guide.
Ability break down at the start (above TWW) and a sample build below the feats section.
Starting to see some real debuffing potential for the Brawler.
His menacing stance
+Dazzling Display+ Cornugon Smash and Skill Fcs:Intimidate adds shaken
+ CRUEL weapon adds Sickened.
Pindown class ability lets you down a total -7 on an enemies attack and AC, and the AOO's they provoke for trying to move away lets you lock them in place.
I am reevaluating the value of the disarm feats on the TWWarrior example build at the bottom of the guide.
Also the Penetrating strike feats.
Given WBL and the fact TWW get thier version of Weapon Training AND the build uses quickdraw it may be better to just carry a golf bag of weapons for DR.
This will free up a few feats.....
Considering either the Cornugon Smash line (but that is better for the Brawler)
So maybe versatile crit instead?
Updated.
I am wondering about the Mobility Fighter. I am considering that Rapid Attack at level 11 may be a HUGE boon to fighters and TWF fighters in general. The ability lets you use a move action and full attack, at the cost of losing your highest attack. This seems a major loss
but consider; it does count as a full attack so Haste should work, and TWF will make up one of the missing attacks, finally you can substitute a move action for a Standard action so this should give you two sets of these a turn.... (akin to old school Haste!!)
The loss of weapon mastery is the major hit I feel, would two levels of Wild Rager help?? Alternatively go to level 17 and Ranger?, it does seem to beg for multiclassing!
Wild rager looks great but should only be attempted if you have some means of not failing the save.
2 levels gives you WILD FIGHTING. That’s another free attack.
A good will save and sucky cha would make it an easy save, but the consequences for failure are dire.
Any ally could dire to a Pounce in your wild state if you fail the save.
Yeah I agree the Wild Rager raging is problematic but as a free bonus attack at all times it is helpful. I do like the idea of the mobility fighter "minipouncing" twice a round though...(ie the move action Rapid Attack and then the Standard action taken as a move action Rapid Attack)
Ok.
I have accepted a challenge to prove the Viking archetype is awesome.
Any ideas would help.
I see a Shield/Cestus TWF with uber AC.
Pounce comes online at level 15 if I go Beast Totem. Too late for my tastes so maybe a lockdown build.
The swift Intimidate is good.
I am tossing up
A superstitious dwarf with Glory of Old and Steel soul for an uber save tank!
Or
A Human intimidater tank.
Gladius or even a Madu.
My current build plan is a Heavy Shield, 2 Cestus, and a Gladius. Taking advantage of the Performance Quality and quite a few feats.
This has nothing to do with your efforts to create an awesome viking, but I recently found a way to make a ranged TWW, and was wondering if you guys might be interested. it probably needs some work, but I think it's pretty solid for the moment. I'll be checking your guide to optimizae it a little.
While it's probably not as optimal as most of what you guys have up, I find it's an interesting alternative to the traditional TWF.
Race:
Human- Skilled race feature
Traits- Optimistic Gambler
1-Improved Shieldbash, Power Attack, H- Weapon Focus: Shield
2-Cleave, Fearsome
3- Shield Defense +1, TWF
4- Berserker ,Weapon Spec: Shield
5- Weapon Versatility
6- Lesser Beast Totem, H-Skill Focus:Intimidate
7- Shield Defense +2 Improved TWF
8- Beast Totem, Retrain Cleave for Combat Reflexes
9- Arcane Heritage:Orc Bloodline
10-Greater Weapon Focus:Shield
11- Shield Defense +3,Shield Master
12-Pin down , Retrain Weapon Versatility for Dazing Assault , Skill Focus:Survival
13- Quicken SLA: Touch of Rage
15- Shield Defense +4
16-Learn Gtr Beast Totem, Retrain Pin down for Come and Get Me
17- Raging Brutality
18- Improved Eldritch Heritage
19- Armor Mastery
20- Weapon Mastery
No time to clean up format.
What do you think?
Haven't sorted scores either.
Probably need to dump int to 7 for 3 skills per level, to get required dex, cha, str.
I noticed STR ranger's list was a bit confusing, so I tried to clean it up/find an ability distribution that would work. It would be very hard below 25 pts. Although one note about the progression, is that as far as I can tell, you cant retrain to or from rage powers, according to the viking description:
Human (with focused study)
Str 14+2 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 15
1 Improved shield bash, Power Attack; Human: Skill focus (intimidate)
2 Cleave (retrained to combat reflexes)
3 TWF
4 WF (shield) +1 Dex
5 Weapon versatility (retrained to dazinge assault)
6 Rage power (lesser beast totem)
7 Shield Slam
8 Rage power (beast totem) +1 dex Human (Skill focus (Survival))
9 Eldritch Heritage (orc)
10 Improved TWF
11 Improved eldritch heritage (level 9 power)
12 Shield Master +1 cha
13 Quicken SLA (touch of rage)
14 Rage power (Greater beast totem)
15 ?
16 Rage power (come & get me) +1 cha Human (Skill focus ( ?))
17 Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orc level 15)
18 ?
19 ?
20 ? +1 dex
Skills:
-Max intimidate
-A mix of skills for the rest,
A few preriquisite feats where missing (namely shield slam for shield master). By level 20, he has the following stats:
Str: 23 Dex: 17 Con 14 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 17
If you rage, you get +4 str and con (it's questionable whether the viking get the improved rages).
With touch of rage, you can get +9 to attack/damage (+11 with robe of arcane heritage).
With the last eldritch heritage (power of giants), you gain +6 to str and +4 to con. If you count all those stacking effects, you get:
Str: 33 Dex: 15 Con 22 Int 7 Wis 14 Cha 17, +11 to hit and damage
I have no idea if this a particularly powerful build, but there's still a ton of flexibility left in the later levels. It's pretty sweet stats considering the viking has no items.