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Hi all,
With druid 1/cleric 5 I imagine it is possible to have a lvl 6 toon with 3 animal companions, 2 corresponding to druid level 6, the third stuck on druid lvl 5 forever:
Feats: : 3 x Boon Companion
Domains (cleric): animal (feather) & scalykind (saurian).
Is this ok according to RAW, and what would be good feats & spells to strengthen this build?
I realize Animal Companions are limited in power, but we are planning to play a caster-heavy party, and the flavor is also to my liking.
Thank you for your comments.
RAW i think it works, but the boon companion has done about all it can. It only gives you the +4 specifically to stop some of these shenanigans.
The human alternate trait Eye for talent works on all of them to give a +2 ability score boost
Druids only get ONE animal companion, not two.
One from druid lvl 1, one from each of the domains that grant animal companion, was the thought.
With regards to shenanigans (which I had to look up :-) ). : I don't find the build Secret or dishonest, nor silly Nor mischiveously :-). The intention with the build is to have Animal Companions to provide a minimum of tanking in a party that lacks a tank (nobody wants to play a tank in the group).
We do have a combined RPG experience of about 125 years, and have reached an age where permission is default, if it is RAW (some muddy ideas in the spirit of freedom of creativity).
This is not a rules answer, but an interpretive one. But if I were to have a character with both levels in Druid and Cleric with Animal domain, I'd probably ask to (or as GM have my player do it this way) let the class levels stack to have one companion that is higher level (even though the cleric addition will be -3), rather than multiple companions who are largely going to be stuck at lower level and thus be easily killed liabilities at higher level.
If I wanted a horde of animal "companions" at varying strengths, I would play a single class druid (or single class any other thing that gives you a companion) and then at 7th level take the Leadership feat, and take all my cohorts and followers as animals and magical beasts (provided the GM allowed that of course). I might make the cohort lower level than it should be so it does not overshadow the companion (but it could still be a useful creature like a mount).
RAW i think it works, but the boon companion has done about all it can. It only gives you the +4 specifically to stop some of these shenanigans.
I am afraid my language skills does not suffice: do we agree that at for example druid 1/cleric 9, the two companions based on cleric domains would be corresponding to druid level 10?
The human alternate trait Eye for talent works on all of them to give a +2 ability score boost
Perfect, thanks.
This is not a rules answer, but an interpretive one. But if I were to have a character with both levels in Druid and Cleric with Animal domain, I'd probably ask to (or as GM have my player do it this way) let the class levels stack to have one companion that is higher level (even though the cleric addition will be -3), rather than multiple companions who are largely going to be stuck at lower level and thus be easily killed liabilities at higher level.
Well that is what I intended to offset with the Boon Companion feat, which allows me to have the two companions at full level, the third stuck at level 5.
I am afraid my language skills does not suffice: do we agree that at for example druid 1/cleric 9, the two companions based on cleric domains would be corresponding to druid level 10?
No. A druid 1 Cleric 9 with two companions based on domains would have
1 druid level 1 companion
1 Scaley level 6 companion
1 Feathery level 6 companion.
With 3 boon feats you get
1 druid level 5 companion- He's stuck at that level unless you take more levels in druid.
1 scaley level 10 companion
1 feathery level 10 companion
I don't think there is any raw for or against getting the different unstackable animal companions this way. If it were me DMing i would rule that you have 1 level 10 Archeopteryx - something your scaly and feathery domains could agree on.
Actually, I think the rules are that animal companions from different sources stacks into one big critter. From d20pfsrd:
"Class Level
The character’s druid level. The druid’s class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion’s statistics."
( Scroll down to class level )
May I recommend the Beastmaster for multiple pets ?
I would argue the oposite from the text, namely that the druid pet continues to advance when I have the other animal companions advance. It does not say they are combined, and Boon Companion specifically mentions multiple pets.
The beastmaster is not at par with the build, due to the powersplitting necesary, but thanks :-)
Pet themed PC's are one of those things that can really go out of control if allowed to in a campaign. I maintain a hard line on them out of fairness, particularly if I wind up with multiple pet characters. In a four character campaign one character like this can really hog GM time, even more so when they start tossing summons into the mix.
I also tend to flat out disallow certain class archetypes for this reason.
I understand, but we are at least wielding an Ipad of Prconfigured Rolls each, and have laptops for the havier stuff. Rolls and results are ready when it is my turn. We have a 12 seconds rule for unprepared players ;-). It is never the pet-classes we wait for, but the high level casters with too many spells.
As I mentioned, we are more of a collective bunch regarding the allowing or disallowing, I think it is an age thing (I am 42)
I would recommend 12 sec rule: you need to be well underway telling your action, after 12 secs, or you loose your round due to hessitation. It is a good driver :)
I am afraid my language skills does not suffice: do we agree that at for example druid 1/cleric 9, the two companions based on cleric domains would be corresponding to druid level 10?
No. A druid 1 Cleric 9 with two companions based on domains would have
1 druid level 1 companion
1 Scaley level 6 companion
1 Feathery level 6 companion.
With 3 boon feats you get
1 druid level 5 companion- He's stuck at that level unless you take more levels in druid.
1 scaley level 10 companion
1 feathery level 10 companion
I don't think there is any raw for or against getting the different unstackable animal companions this way. If it were me DMing i would rule that you have 1 level 10 Archeopteryx - something your scaly and feathery domains could agree on.
Exactly, thanks for the clarification :)
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Due to the stacking, I don't think I'd allow the Druid / Cleric thing to work (the Druid level just adding to one of the Cleric companions), but in a game where one can take both the Animal (feather) and Scalykind (saurian) domains (perhaps by worshipping something like Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan?), that seems kosher.
Back in the day, I wanted to play a Cleric of Trithereon 'the Summoner,' in Greyhawk, who had horse, hound and lizard companions, or some homebrew nobleman's diety who focused on horse, hound and hawk, so I love the theme (and tightly limiting that theme can keep one from stacking up multiple deinonychus or big cat companions, with their abundance of attacks per round!).
And if this is PFS you are limited to 1 companion regardless, so you'd need to talk to your GM to approve this otherwise.
I am afraid I do not know what PFS is. We want it to be Pathfinder rules as written, only from Paizo, without homebrewing rules. We believe in the balancing specialists from Paizo.
Due to the stacking, I don't think I'd allow the Druid / Cleric thing to work (the Druid level just adding to one of the Cleric companions), but in a game where one can take both the Animal (feather) and Scalykind (saurian) domains (perhaps by worshipping something like Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan?), that seems kosher.
Back in the day, I wanted to play a Cleric of Trithereon 'the Summoner,' in Greyhawk, who had horse, hound and lizard companions, or some homebrew nobleman's diety who focused on horse, hound and hawk, so I love the theme (and tightly limiting that theme can keep one from stacking up multiple deinonychus or big cat companions, with their abundance of attacks per round!).
Interested in RAW, but thanks for taking the time. Nice story for your char, thought of Lady Hawke there for a moment.
Basically, for me there are two questions: is it balanced (and I am a firm believer in RAW), and can it contain a cool narrative. Companions are VERY narrative-friendly IMO, so much activity around them that for example would work great in a fantasy movie script.
As you go up in levels, take Skill Focus (Knowledge Nature) and Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) for another animal companion :)
OMG that is brilliant :)
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And if this is PFS you are limited to 1 companion regardless, so you'd need to talk to your GM to approve this otherwise.I am afraid I do not know what PFS is. We want it to be Pathfinder rules as written, only from Paizo, without homebrewing rules. We believe in the balancing specialists from Paizo.
PFS: Pathfinder Society. "Officially Sanctioned play events". No homebrew allowed, very strict (and official) interpritations of rules
based off of RAW and several other animal companion threads I believe that a character only gets one animal companion and any other classes that allow for animal comapanions will stack (their effecive druid level) with the druids level to determine the stats of the one comapanion.
From RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
If we look at the wording it says that the mutiple sources stack with the druids level for "the companion" not the companions. Since the other sources of classes refer to the druid listing (and state what their effective druid level for an AC is), I think this is the common thought of the developer's intentions allowing for only one animal comapanion.
If you look at the beastmaster ranger archetype it specifically says they can have multiple companions. This being said, IMO if you want a character with multiple animal companions, you would need to become a beastmaster.
No homebrew allowed, very strict (and official) interpritations of rules
Well sort of. I don't think its an official rule that crafting of any sort is banned, or that permanent spells wink out after a few days
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
based off of RAW and several other animal companion threads I believe that a character only gets one animal companion and any other classes that allow for animal comapanions will stack (their effecive druid level) with the druids level to determine the stats of the one comapanion.
From RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
If we look at the wording it says that the mutiple sources stack with the druids level for "the companion" not the companions. Since the other sources of classes refer to the druid listing (and state what their effective druid level for an AC is), I think this is the common thought of the developer's intentions allowing for only one animal comapanion.
If you look at the beastmaster ranger archetype it specifically says they can have multiple companions. This being said, IMO if you want a character with multiple animal companions, you would need to become a beastmaster.
I understand why you interpret the singularis as described above. Given the description of Boon Companion, I am not convinced that Pack Lord/Beast Master are the only intended targets of the paragraph in the feat description. In those classes, you split your pet. It would be quite expensive if the split pet would need two feats. Also, you can reconfigure the split when the pet dies, which goes badly with having the feat twice. Also, you can have multiple classes providing levels, going over character level when added up, which I don't believe is RAI. And you can get so differently flavoured companions, making stacking very unclear. Let me show what I mean:
Druid 1, Sorcerer (sylvan) 1, Ranger (Falconer) 1 ( or 4), Cavalier 1.
While it it probably the ugliest build ever :) it is for me clear that the chosen flavors are not compatible. Mount, bird, any animal... I have a hard time believing that it is RAI that getting a cavalier level augments your bird or snake.
Also, it should be obvious that getting a companion is a lot less powerful than a class defining ability. It has the cost of a domain, in several cases, in the case of the sylvan sorcerer a 1st lvl blodline power, plus a feat to getting it to full strength.
At best, the rules are not crystal clear.
I do believe the best would be an official ruling, if you agree please use the button :-)
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the rules in the animal companion section are crystal clear: any class that grants effective druid levels stacks for determining the power of your animal companion.
whether that's druid 1/sylavn sorcerer 1/falconer ranger 4/cavalier 1 ( who gets the equivalent of a 4th level druid animal companion ), or a druid 1/cleric 5 ( who gets a 3rd level animal companion, unless they take boon companion to make it a 6th level animal companion instead )
The only way to have multiple animal companions at one time is through the beastmaster archtype.
Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics.
If you've chosen 5 disparate classes , to get five different animals, to apply boon companion to each animal... you've already got a problem. if there's any problem with the intention of what the flavor should be when combining falconer/cavalier/druid/sorcerer, the flavor is clearly mishmosh. if there's any problem with the flavor, its clearly a choice the player has made.
But the rules are clear as to what the player is allowed, with their animal companion.
RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
I clearly understand the interpretation that says that above sentence means that companions merge. I do however not agree with the interpretation. Multiple classes explicitly says that you recieve a companion, above statement could be intended to mean that these merge. But it could also mean that all companions gain power when you gain level.
From RAW, I believe most in my readibg. As for RAI, we need a ruling from Paizo.
Having said that, one guy decided to play Paladin, so we don't need multi-companions anymore. :)
I thought there was a rule against taking multiple subdomains of a single domain (at least with a single class)
There is Devilkiller -- and not to be harsh to Tandriniel but the rules are what they are -- you only have one animal companion unless you have a class feature that explicitly gives you another one.
Now you could have a familiar, a cohort and an animal companion to get closer, (and both the familiar and the animal companion would both benefit from taking boon companion for them, but you would have to take the feat twice) with 'any old character'.
But only beast master and pack lord in core have the ability to have more than one animal companion currently.
Sorcerer's can get up to three 'followers' with the following:
Bloodline(arcana) -- familiar
The old Noble Scion feat which grants an imp familiar that acts as a level 1 familiar independent of anything you already have.
Diabloist -- which gives an imp as an animal companion.
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RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
I clearly understand the interpretation that says that above sentence means that companions merge. I do however not agree with the interpretation. Multiple classes explicitly says that you recieve a companion, above statement could be intended to mean that these merge. But it could also mean that all companions gain power when you gain level.
From RAW, I believe most in my readibg. As for RAI, we need a ruling from Paizo.
Having said that, one guy decided to play Paladin, so we don't need multi-companions anymore. :)
I have to agree with this interpretation. Based on the bolded text cited above, the Cleric levels are not Druid levels - they are character levels. These character levels can ALSO serve as Druid levels in the event the class grants an Animal Companion, but nowhere does it indicate that they are ONLY considered Druid levels. In other words, they count as both Druid levels AND as Cleric levels for the purpose of Animal Companions.
Based on the OP's build, it would seem he gets 3 separate companions - one as a Druid (where all character levels that grant Animal COmpanions are stacked as Druid levels) and 2 from his Cleric domains.
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I thought there was a rule against taking multiple subdomains of a single domain (at least with a single class)The Animal Domain and the Scalykind Domain are different domains, so, if you can find a diety that gives both, that's legal.
You cant because they have been carful not too, but than there is the new arch type "sepertist", I think, that lets you choose 1 domain not of your dieties. So this is giong to get to be a problem. I am in agreement that the rules say stack them, when it comes to driuds + clerics, rangers, paladins, oracle, ect..., but the cleric with 2 domains that grant is using the same class feature to get 2.
There is Devilkiller -- and not to be harsh to Tandriniel
You are indeed the very oposite of harsh, and I thank you (and everybody else) for spending time and energy on the question :-).
I do not believe that you are correct though, levels stackin not a merged companion make...
Ok, I didn't notice that these were two separate domains. Diabolist definitely seems like an easy way to get an extra companion (which can take the form of an animal). I wonder if a Lawful Evil (or LN) Cleric with the Animal domain who becomes a Diabolist would get an imp companion in addition to his animal companion (a pretty nice combo) or if he'd get an imp companion which replaces his animal companion (not so cool).
The imp companion uses a similar progression to the animal companion, but since it is an imp rather than an animal that seems like something separate to me.
the rules in the animal companion section are crystal clear: any class that grants effective druid levels stacks for determining the power of your animal companion.
I wouldn't say crystal clear, but my reading is also that they stack.
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Ok, I didn't notice that these were two separate domains. Diabolist definitely seems like an easy way to get an extra companion (which can take the form of an animal). I wonder if a Lawful Evil (or LN) Cleric with the Animal domain who becomes a Diabolist would get an imp companion in addition to his animal companion (a pretty nice combo) or if he'd get an imp companion which replaces his animal companion (not so cool).
The imp companion uses a similar progression to the animal companion, but since it is an imp rather than an animal that seems like something separate to me.
This
Class Level: This is the diabolist’s class level plus her highest caster level. This does not stack with class levels that grant an animal companion.
That's a good catch, jjaamm. It sounds like a Cleric with Animal domain who becomes a Diabolist would only get to use his Diabolist levels for determining the power of the imp. Would he be able to keep his wimpy animal companion from being a Cleric though, or would it have to be sacrificed to gain the imp wimp? Either way I guess this would end up being a pretty ineffective way to get two pets.
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That's a good catch, jjaamm. It sounds like a Cleric with Animal domain who becomes a Diabolist would only get to use his Diabolist levels for determining the power of the imp. Would he be able to keep his wimpy animal companion from being a Cleric though, or would it have to be sacrificed to gain the imp wimp? Either way I guess this would end up being a pretty ineffective way to get two pets.
Been looking at it latly thats all. What is interesting is that the imp stacks with any one caster level, cept course the AC exception. So what happens if you take just 1 level dip? Never mind, dont want to thread jack
I think "pet" is not quite the word I'd use, but if you wanted to form a pack of your own try this:
Paladin's special mount
Druid's animal companion
Sorcerers familiar
Then take the Leadership Feat, and get a Cohort with the same ungainly build. It's not pretty, but it would work.
Oh yeah, buy some constructs, invest in some summoning magic, then buy a Horn of Valhalla, and a Tan Bag of Tricks.
It can be done...but why?
I think "pet" is not quite the word I'd use, but if you wanted to form a pack of your own try this:
Paladin's special mount
Druid's animal companion
Sorcerers familiarThen take the Leadership Feat, and get a Cohort with the same ungainly build. It's not pretty, but it would work.
(a) You can't be a paladin and a druid in good standing at the same time, but you could be an animal domain cleric or summoner or something.
(b) By my reading, the paladin special mount ability is not separate from other animal companion abilities (i.e. you get one companion and the levels stack).
RAW: "If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion."
I clearly understand the interpretation that says that above sentence means that companions merge. I do however not agree with the interpretation. Multiple classes explicitly says that you recieve a companion, above statement could be intended to mean that these merge. But it could also mean that all companions gain power when you gain level.
From RAW, I believe most in my readibg. As for RAI, we need a ruling from Paizo.
Having said that, one guy decided to play Paladin, so we don't need multi-companions anymore. :)
I have to agree with this interpretation. Based on the bolded text cited above, the Cleric levels are not Druid levels - they are character levels. These character levels can ALSO serve as Druid levels in the event the class grants an Animal Companion, but nowhere does it indicate that they are ONLY considered Druid levels. In other words, they count as both Druid levels AND as Cleric levels for the purpose of Animal Companions.
Based on the OP's build, it would seem he gets 3 separate companions - one as a Druid (where all character levels that grant Animal COmpanions are stacked as Druid levels) and 2 from his Cleric domains.
Unless I am mistaken, in every case where RAW states that a non-druid gets an animal companion (or a creature treated as an animal companion), it states that they have an "effective druid level" (most of the time equal to the class level -3) which is used witht he druid animal companion table to determin the abilities.
Nobody Important, one of our games started out with two PCs (we're up to four now). It can be pretty useful having a pet or two around when you're low on PCs. Even in games with more players a character with a pet or maybe even two needn't necessarily have a longer turn than one who casts Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally frequently. Familiars in particular tend to just sit around looking cute and granting Alertness. Most Druids have an animal companion and cast SNA too. I'd say that my Alchemist with Fast Bombs has a longer turn than my Druid PCs have though. Rolling 8d4 multiple times and adding up all that damage takes forever.
If there weren't players with a desire to have multiple pets for their PCs I doubt that the Beastmaster archetype or the Summoner class would exist. Some folks like having 2 or 3 actions on their turn. Others prefer to play a melee character who makes one d20 roll per round. If these folks end up in the same game sometimes it can go badly, but I don't think either style of play is wrong.