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Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed melee reach weapon with a 10-foot reach. Further, you take no penalty on melee attack rolls for using an unfolded net, and you can use one full-round action or two move actions to fold a net.
Normal: A net is a ranged weapon that imposes a –4 penalty on ranged attack rolls if it is unfolded. Folding a net takes a proficient user 2 rounds.
So um... why would I take penalties on melee attack rolls anyways -- or rather why would I be using melee attack rolls with a net and just this feat?
Also:
What maneuvers can or can't I perform with a net entangling my opponent, and How is the Net Maneuvering feat supposed to work?
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, base attack bonus +3.Benefit: In melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them. You gain a +2 bonus on disarm checks made to use a net in this way. Further, if you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to drag or reposition that opponent as long as he is within your net’s reach or you control the trailing rope on your net.
Again it's a ranged weapon -- you can't entangle an enemy in melee with it.
I'm thinking all these feats need an errata at this point in time.
And a bump to keep it in view.
Interesting find Abraham... hmmm..
So um... why would I take penalties on melee attack rolls anyways -- or rather why would I be using melee attack rolls with a net and just this feat?
This feat allows the net to be used as a Melee Weapon instead of a ranged weapon. I believe the intention of the feat (Net Adept) is to allow the wielder of the Net to be able to perform Combat Manuevers with a Net.
Normally, you cannot perform Combat Manuevers with Ranged Weapons. (exception: Bola who has text to support it is an exception) However, if the weapon was a melee weapon (such as with a feat) then Combat Manuevers become fair game.
Thus, the intention of Net Maneuvering becomes clear since you need Net Adept (Nets are Melee Weapons), so now the Melee part of your quote becomes clear. Instead of simply tossing it over them you can perform a variety of combat maneuvers (trip or disarm) at 10 feet. Since it is now a reach weapon you will not be able to use these maneuvers at 5 feet.
One unintended side effect of this feat (net adept) is that you now use STR instead of DEX when using your net, as it is now considered a Melee Weapon. Additionally, you will not provoke an Attack of Opportunity when throwing a net and having an enemy theatening you.
A very interesting note is that Net and Trident states:
Net and Trident (Combat):
Your skill with lighter weapons allows you to wield one alongside your net.Prerequisites: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed ranged weapon, allowing you to wield a light or one-handed melee weapon and still make ranged attacks with your net. When you use your light or one-handed melee weapon to attack an entangled opponent, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls and on attack rolls to confirm a critical hit.
Normal: A net is a two-handed ranged weapon.
Seeing as how Net Adept is a requirement for this feat, it throws my whole theory for a loop. Net adept makes a net a one handed melee weapon, this feat makes now makes it a one handed ranged weapon.
It seems as if whoever wrote Net Adept did not talk to the person that wrote Net and Trident.
Suggestion: Net Adept - 2 handed Melee Weapon, Net and Trident - 1 Handed Melee Weapon.
It seems as if whoever wrote Net Adept did not talk to the person that wrote Net and Trident.
It is actually worse than that. Whoever wrote Net and Trident didn't read the Core Rulebook.
Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw
a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a
light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas,
javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
The rest of your reasoning actually still works, though. Just cut out the first sentence of Net and Trident and everything is hunky and/or dory.
Well, not really, since it makes Net and Trident a fairly awful feat. But at least Net Adept makes sense!
It is actually worse than that. Whoever wrote Net and Trident didn't read the Core Rulebook.
I didn't catch that... wow. Yep, nets are already one handed ranged weapons. But, I tried my best on the other parts.
Yeah the more I looked at these feats the more I realized... someone screwed up. Hate to put it that way but there's just to much "Wah?" to it to suggest anything else.
It gets even worse when you consider the new trip rules that were put up recently and the fact that of all the weapons out there the net is perhaps the only one (or one of a very few) that it makes any sense to have the ability to drag and reposition without needing an extra feat to do it with it.
Here's another quandary.. do you need two free hands to fold up a net? I mean you don't need two free hands to mix an Alchemist's bombs or grab spell components or foci so RAW is probably no, but it just seems odd.
Here's another quandary.. do you need two free hands to fold up a net? I mean you don't need two free hands to mix an Alchemist's bombs or grab spell components or foci so RAW is probably no, but it just seems odd.
I'm going to go with "Nobody knows, because in the history of the d20 system nobody has been dumb enough to try folding a net in combat instead of just pulling out a new one." Well, okay, I'm sure someone HAS. But the sort of person who knows the rules well enough to wonder about this probably isn't the sort who would.
That said, yes, I'd assume two hands. There is no way folding a net is easier than loading a crossbow or a sling.
It gets even worse when you consider the new trip rules that were put up recently and the fact that of all the weapons out there the net is perhaps the only one (or one of a very few) that it makes any sense to have the ability to drag and reposition without needing an extra feat to do it with it.
It isn't all that bad, I'd say. Most things that trip have a hook of some sort. It isn't too much of a stretch to assume you used it to grab onto an enemy's clothes, body, or generic spikey outcropping to pull/drag them into a new position. On a quick scan of the SRD, the only particularly egregious example I found was the flail (though the scythe might be a bit painful).
My point being these later feats:
Net Maneuvering (Combat)
With sweeping movements and brute force, you can use your net to put foes at a disadvantage.
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: In melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them. You gain a +2 bonus on disarm checks made to use a net in this way. Further, if you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to drag or reposition that opponent as long as he is within your net’s reach or you control the trailing rope on your net.
Net Trickery (Combat)
You have become very proficient at using your net to hinder your enemies.
Prerequisite: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, Net Maneuvering, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In place of one of your melee attacks, you can use your net to attempt a dirty trick combat maneuver to blind an opponent. If you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to trip that opponent as long as he is within your net’s reach or you control the trailing rope on your net. You also gain a +2 bonus on drag and reposition combat maneuver checks you make using your net.
Which now have less reason to exist.
All in all the whole chain need touched on and clarified, if not rebuilt -- in my opinion.
My point being these later feats:
Which now have less reason to exist.
All in all the whole chain need touched on an clarified, if not rebuilt -- in my opinion.
Oh wow, I didn't even notice that. This is getting into Prone Shooter territory. Definitely in need of errata.
My understanding is that the net can be enchanted -- I'm looking at ghost touch and seeking myself. I wouldn't think that returning would be worth it since my understanding is the net has to be on the foe in order to entangle them.
Bumping to keep it visible.
dredging it back up...
KenderKin -- not to be rude but I don't think you said what you meant to say and what you did say doesn't make sense with the feats in question.
Perhaps you meant, "Throw the folded net and then use the unfolded one in melee since you don't take penalties for doing so."
Bumping for more opinions -- each time I bump someone else comes in with another thought so it seems worth it to me.
Bumping and hoping for answers.
Bumping again because... well it's still bothering me.
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So, let me see if I get this:
A Net is an Exotic ranged weapon with a 10ft. range. It has some other abilities too that are well explained and pretty straight forward.
Net Adept allows you to use a net as a one-handed melee reach weapon. Among other things, this lets you use a net without provoking, use certain combat maneuvers with your net, and keep a hold of your net when you use it. You can also use an unfolded net in melee without penalty and fold it quicker.
Net Maneuvering lets you trip and disarm with a net. You can disarm with a melee weapon anyway, but this gives you a +2. This feat was probably conceived before the change to trip. I believe weapons with the trip quality now get a +2 to trip. If this is the case, it would make sense to adjust this feat likewise. You can also drag and reposition an entangled foe. Normally, you can only drag and reposition within you natural reach, so not only can you add you bonuses with the net to your roll, you can also do it from any range. It takes an attack to entangle the foe, so you'll have to wait until you next round (if their still entangled) to move them, but it still opens up options. That's really all it does.
Net Trickery lets you use a Dirty Trick in place of an attack. Normally, it's a standard action so that's a benefit. Also, if you entangle a foe, you can make a trip attempt. With Net Maneuvering, you have to have the net in hand to trip with it (as you would with any weapon), also, if you trip with a net, you didn't attack, so you can't entangle. This lets you trip, in place of an attack, from any range after you entangle them, so it's different from Net Maneuvering. You also get +2 to drag and reposition.
Net and Trident has some contradictions with the section on TWF. TWF says nets are normally one-handed ranged weapons, Net and Trident says they're normally two-handed ranged weapons. The rest of the feat is pretty straight forward.
Alright, I think I got it. Incidentally, other than the contradiction between Net and Trident and TWF, which should be cleared up, and whether Net Maneuvering gives the same bonus to trip as tripping weapons now get, what else is still confusing?
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I imagine the response to these questions is 'the Feats work as written'.
Apart from the minor clash between the Core book and the Net and Trident Feat's 'Normal' comment on whether a net is (usually) a one- or two-handed ranged weapon, there's really nothing wrong or even particularly complicated with the text, or how the Feats are applied. Each Feat just adds more options to net use.
Granted, the net is sort-of a complex weapon in the first place, as it's basically a whole lot of exceptions to the usual weapon rules (it has a 10ft range increment, but a maximum range of 10ft too, it does no damage but inflicts the entangled condition, it targets touch AC instead of normal AC), but assuming you've read and understood the basics of the net, the Feats in Ultimate Combat don't add much complexity at all.
So um... why would I take penalties on melee attack rolls anyways -- or rather why would I be using melee attack rolls with a net and just this feat?
The point of the Net Adept Feat is to allow the net to be used as a melee reach weapon - that's what the Feat does. That doesn't change the other functions of the net (no damage, inflicts the entangled condition, targets touch AC), just how you get to use it against your foes.
What maneuvers can or can't I perform with a net entangling my opponent, and How is the Net Maneuvering feat supposed to work?
Again it's a ranged weapon -- you can't entangle an enemy in melee with it.
Net Adept allows you to use a net as a melee reach weapon. Net Manuevering has Net Adept as a prerequisite (so by the time you get the Net Maneuvering Feat you can use a net as a melee weapon).
Net Maneuvering allows you to use a net as a melee reach weapon to trip or disarm opponents instead of making a regular attack (which in the case of a net results in inflicting the entangle condition, whereas a usual weapon would do damage). So, with Net Maneuvering you can try to entangle your foe, or you can use the net as a weapon with the trip or disarm quality. Note that the +2 to disarm, but no bonus to trip (just the ability to attempt a trip at reach) matches the usual trip and disarm weapon qualities (which the Net Maneuver Feat essentially lets you simulate).
If you choose to make a regular net attack, and successfully entangle an opponent, you can use the drag or reposition maneuvers against that opponent, via the net - you can't disarm or trip them once they're entangled, since that's a different sort of attack, and your net is tied up with inflicting the entangled condition (as per normal for a net which hits its target).
With the Net Trickery Feat you get another set of options. In place of the regular net attack, disarm, or trip you could previously attempt, you can now try a dirty trick maneuver to blind the opponent - it's an extra 'attack' option. With an opponent entangled in the net, you don't get that option, but you do now have the option of using a trip against that foe, and get an extra +2 bonus to the drag and reposition options you've already got thanks to your Net Maneuvering Feat.
Net Adept to Net Maneuvering to Net Trickery is pretty much a Feat to Improved Feat to Greater Feat progression, if that helps at all?
Net and Trident is a sideways step, if you like, as it allows you to use a net as a thrown ranged weapon (as a net is normally used) and to use a light or one-handed melee weapon at the same time as part of two-weapon fighting. Although I doubt it's a rule used much by most groups, technically , according to the two-weapon fighting text in the combat chapter of the Core book, you can TWF with melee weapons, or TWF with thrown weapons, but nowhere does it say you can mix-and-match those two options. Net and Trident allows you to do so, and also gives you a nice damage bonus against entangled opponents.
So, basically, each Feat just adds a few options to net use. If you progress through them one by one, it's a lot clearer than looking at them en mass.
Unfortunately the strength check to control the net might be an issue Kenderkin.
1. Where is the rule that says you can't use your net without holding on to it as a ranged weapon? Net Maneuvering implies that you can still have a hold on your net by a trailing rope.
I'm sorry, did you just ask me where the rule was that says you have to be holding a weapon to use it? I don't know how to respond to that.
Holding the trailing rope (which is mentioned in the Net entry), is not holding the net anymore than holding a rope attached to a javelin is holding the javelin. I admit it would be nice to have defined what action it is to retrieve a net by drawing in the trailing rope, but that's a problem with the Net entry itself.
2. If you can disarm, trip, etc. with a melee reach weapon anyway, Net Maneuvering was clearly designed with an unclear understanding of the rules.
At the time of writing you could not trip with any melee weapon, only weapons with the trip quality. Normally, you cannot drag or reposition with a melee weapon at all.
You can disarm with a melee weapon normally, true, the feat is merely reminding you of that. Do other feats that reiterate how things typically work when relevant often confuse you?What bonuses? (Unless you are referring to the penalties to Dex from entanglement.)
Any bonuses you would receive when attacking with the Net (Weapon Focus, Enhancement, etc.) When you perform a combat maneuver with a weapon you get to add your bonuses with that weapon.
It does not specify that the trip attempt is in place of an attack. It is a normal trip attempt. This implies that the trip attack from Net Maneuvering cannot be done to someone already entangled in the net.
All trips are in place of an attack, that's how trip attempts work. It does imply that the trip attack from Net Maneuvering cannot be done to someone already entangled in the net.
This is, perhaps, slightly more confusing than I originally thought. Nowhere does it say, for example, that you can't throw a net at a different creature if a creature is already entangled in it. Common sense, however, does. To me, it followed that you can't make *any* attacks with a net if a creature is entangled in it, but perhaps that's not as intuitive a leap as I thought.
Consider this:
1. If your opponent is 10 ft. away, you can use a melee attack so you don't provoke. Yay! Oh wait, your opponent is 10 ft. away.
2. If your opponent is 5 ft. away, you can...wait, you have to make a ranged attack, since as a "melee reach" weapon, you can't attack adjacent squares. You still provoke. And you take a penalty for an unfolded net, because the feat specifies that you don't take penalties for an unfolded net in melee.
3. If your opponent is 10 ft. away, and another opponent is 5 ft. away, you can attack the one who is 10 ft. away without provoking. Um. Yay?
Or, your target has, ya know, reach.
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Well it was kind of hard to even bring into play when the GM goes, "What is this crap supposed to do? No, too much headache."
Did you ever play the Pack Hunter Abe? If so, any feedback?
Yup I posted up a review. Unfortunately I didn't get to use the bounty hunter as the table already had six players -- adding in two animal companions would have simply been too much on the board. However it is looking like another project I'm working on will hopefully be using the character in some form.
Thanks! I'll take into consideration everything you mentioned for the next round of errata. I will just mention that the name Mechanist is what I think a materialist would have been called during the pseudo-Renaissance time era that pathfinder takes place in. The whole Clockwork view of the universe, you know?
But back to nets!
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Yes it is freaking long, but read it all and you'll see the feat chain is not what you guys are thinking it is. These feats are just fine as is. :) You just have to take each piece of info one at a time, and get the nuance of each one. They build on one another.
Admittedly, the wording could have been better in the descriptions. :) Once you have read ALL of the feats most of the questions become clarified by subsequent entries. Not the best way to have written it. :)
Net: A net is used to entangle enemies. When you throw a net, you make a ranged touch attack against your target. A net's maximum range is 10 feet. If you hit, the target is entangled. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty on Dexterity, can move at only half speed, and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the entangled creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell.
An entangled creature can escape with a DC 20 Escape Artist check (a full-round action). The net has 5 hit points and can be burst with a DC 25 Strength check (also a full-round action). A net is useful only against creatures within one size category of you.
A net must be folded to be thrown effectively. The first time you throw your net in a fight, you make a normal ranged touch attack roll. After the net is unfolded, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls with it. It takes 2 rounds for a proficient user to fold a net and twice that long for a nonproficient one to do so.
It is listed under Exotic Ranged Weapons.
So what we know about the Net from this entry is that it is a RANGED weapon normally. To make attacks with the Net you MUST make a ranged attack. You cannot make melee attacks with the Net after you throw it, so any further ranged attacks with the Net suffers a -4 penalty unless refolded first. Interestingly it does NOT specify whether these are two Full Round Actions or two Standard Actions.
So it is a good idea if possible to carry multiple nets as the only option otherwise is to attack at -4 on all subsequent attacks unless you refold it (not likely in combat).
Net Adept (Combat)
You have trained to use the net as a melee weapon.
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed melee reach weapon with a 10-foot reach. Further, you take no penalty on melee attack rolls for using an unfolded net, and you can use one full-round action or two move actions to fold a net.
Normal: A net is a ranged weapon that imposes a –4 penalty on ranged attack rolls if it is unfolded. Folding a net takes a proficient user 2 rounds.
Net Adept changes the use of the Net almost entirely.
This feat gives the OPTION to change the Net from an Exotic Ranged weapon to an Exotic One-Handed melee weapon with a 10-foot reach. Additionally you can now make additional attacks with an unfolded net as a melee attack rather than ranged attack and no longer suffer the -4 penalty for an unfolded net as long as you use it as a melee attack. It finally specifies the types of actions required to fold a net.
Net Maneuvering (Combat)
With sweeping movements and brute force, you can use your net to put foes at a disadvantage.
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, base attack bonus +3.
Benefit: In melee, you can use a net to trip or disarm opponents instead of entangling them. You gain a +2 bonus on disarm checks made to use a net in this way. Further, if you have an opponent entangled in your net, you can attempt to drag or reposition that opponent as long as he is within your net's reach or you control the trailing rope on your net.
Since Net Adept is a perquisite, the Net is no longer ONLY a ranged weapon, but a one-handed melee weapon as well. This feat now gives the Net thrower additional options instead of just entangling opponents (which has been specifically noted in the Net description as the only option for this weapon) to now allowing Trip and Disarm maneuvers. It also allows the Drag and Reposition maneuvers if you already have an opponent Entangled.
Remember the Net is now no longer ONLY a ranged weapon, but also a melee weapon with a 10-foot reach.
So um... why would I take penalties on melee attack rolls anyways -- or rather why would I be using melee attack rolls with a net and just this feat?
You would use melee attacks with this feat because it changes the type of weapon from ranged to melee. That is specified in the description of the feat itself. It also clarifies that since you now use a melee attack rather than ranged attack the normal -4 penalty for using an unfolded net does not apply to making the melee attacks.
Apparently you failed to notice that the attack type changed entirely from ranged to melee due to this feat.
Again it's a ranged weapon -- you can't entangle an enemy in melee with it.
I'm thinking all these feats need an errata at this point in time.
Again read the description of the feats. The ranged weapon no longer applies as the feat has changed it to melee. So now the complaint that it is a ranged weapon is incorrect. Since it has changed the attack type from ranged to melee you CAN entangle an opponent in melee with it.
There is no need for errata or changes. Just need to read the feats more carefully and take your time to notice the details. These feats work just fine.
Net and Trident (Combat)
Your skill with lighter weapons allows you to wield one alongside your net.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Net Adept, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: You can treat a net as a one-handed ranged weapon, allowing you to wield a light or one-handed melee weapon and still make ranged attacks with your net. When you use your light or one-handed melee weapon to attack an entangled opponent, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls and on attack rolls to confirm a critical hit.
Normal: A net is a two-handed ranged weapon.
Seeing as how Net Adept is a requirement for this feat, it throws my whole theory for a loop. Net adept makes a net a one handed melee weapon, this feat makes now makes it a one handed ranged weapon.
It seems as if whoever wrote Net Adept did not talk to the person that wrote Net and Trident.
Suggestion: Net Adept - 2 handed Melee Weapon, Net and Trident - 1 Handed Melee Weapon.
In regards to Net and Trident... this feat clarifies that a net is normally a two-handed ranged weapon. You will notice in the description of Net Adept AND Net and Trident that the feats say you CAN use not that you MUST use... so Net Adept allows you to use a Net as either Ranged OR Melee while Net and Trident allows you to use a Net as either a two-handed ranged weapon OR a one-handed ranged weapon (allowing a second weapon to be employed) OR a one-handed melee weapon (which allows a second weapon to be used). These feats give you many options on how you use the Net.
In essence, this feat chain [Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Net, Net Adept, Net and Trident, Net Maneuvering, and Two-Weapon Fighting] allows you to use a Net with your choices of
1) Exotic Two-handed ranged weapon, OR
2) Exotic One-handed melee weapon with a 10-foot reach (which means you could use this with a trident, for example, as a great combination if you take Two-Weapon Fighting), OR
3) Exotic One-handed ranged weapon that allows you to use the net with a one-handed weapon and still make ranged attacks with the net, OR
4) IF you use the net as a melee weapon you have the choice to Entangle, Trip OR Disarm your opponent. If the opponent is entangled you have the choice to use the Drag or Reposition maneuvers.
Upon reading these feats again I find no problem with them as written. There is no need for errata, just pay closer attention to the wording. :) Granted it took me a few minutes to get the intention and use of this feat chain. :) Not something I would have grasped as a GM upon a very quick glance.
I have been watching the Starz show Spartacus on Netflix (now DVD only, which sucks) and I think if your goal is to reproduce a Net and Trident Gladiator this feat chain works fantastically. It is not the most OPTIMAL combination in the world as far as damage goes but it does generate a lot of really interesting ROLE playing options in combat. :)
Really reread these feats paying close attention to the wording.
Now I admit I just do not quite follow Net Trickery at all. I get using a net for Blinding. But it seems to me that the Tripping option is useless since Net Maneuvering is a Prereq and essentially allows that same option. The bonuses to Drag and Reposition are nice. Maybe I am missing a nuance to the use of Trip between the two feats.
Nets are not two handed ranged weapons. Never have been.
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Now I admit I just do not quite follow Net Trickery at all. I get using a net for Blinding. But it seems to me that the Tripping option is useless since Net Maneuvering is a Prereq and essentially allows that same option. The bonuses to Drag and Reposition are nice. Maybe I am missing a nuance to the use of Trip between the two feats.
Net Maneuvering allows you to use a net to trip instead of entangling - you still can't trip an entangled foe with just that Feat (as the net is already in use, entangling the guy - normally you can't do anything else via the net against the guy, except try to keep him from getting further away than the length of trailing rope you allow him: Net Maneuvering and Net Trickery both add extra options for use against entangled foes). Net Trickery adds the option to trip a guy already entangled in the net.
So, with Net Adept you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle foes.
With Net Maneuvering you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle or disarm or trip foes; against already entangled foes you can also attempt to drag or reposition them.
With Net Trickery you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle or disarm or trip or (dirty trick) blind foes; against already entangled foes you can also attempt to drag or reposition or trip them.
Nets are not two handed ranged weapons. Never have been.
True - that's the one genuine error in the text of these Feats.
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Nets are not two handed ranged weapons. Never have been.
Well the description of the net was silent on the matter. Through development of the Net Feat Tree it appears the game designers decided to clarify that nets are indeed 2-handed ranged weapons. You can rule however you like at your table, doesn't matter to me at all.
Bear in mind I am of the opinion that all rules, no matter how seemingly obvious and clear, are subject to interpretation. Also bear in mind that in my opinion, the word and intent of a designer, once the document has been published, becomes opinion only.
So while Abraham has obviously ruled that nets are not 2-handed ranged weapons, I like the feat trees as is for the most part and can imagine the net as a 2-handed ranged weapon. So Abraham rules one way, I rule another and we are both right as long as the people at the table have a good time. :)
So anyway... I hope my extremely long winded analyses (presenting my interpretation) of this feat tree at least helps in developing an opinion on how to use this feat tree in your game. My interpretation is not TRUTH. Nor is Abraham's, nor James Jacob's nor Bulhman's interpretations.
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Now I admit I just do not quite follow Net Trickery at all. I get using a net for Blinding. But it seems to me that the Tripping option is useless since Net Maneuvering is a Prereq and essentially allows that same option. The bonuses to Drag and Reposition are nice. Maybe I am missing a nuance to the use of Trip between the two feats.Net Maneuvering allows you to use a net to trip instead of entangling - you still can't trip an entangled foe with just that Feat (as the net is already in use, entangling the guy - normally you can't do anything else via the net against the guy, except try to keep him from getting further away than the length of trailing rope you allow him: Net Maneuvering and Net Trickery both add extra options for use against entangled foes). Net Trickery adds the option to trip a guy already entangled in the net.
So, with Net Adept you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle foes.
With Net Maneuvering you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle or disarm or trip foes; against already entangled foes you can also attempt to drag or reposition them.
With Net Trickery you can use a net as a melee reach weapon to entangle or disarm or trip or (dirty trick) blind foes; against already entangled foes you can also attempt to drag or reposition or trip them.
Nets are not two handed ranged weapons. Never have been.True - that's the one genuine error in the text of these Feats.
I think the done thing that bugs me is when a weapon can be used for a Combat Maneuver at all.
At one time the idea was that a CM, of any type be it Trip, Disarm or even later Dirty Tricks, could be used at any time. The detail was that a weapon's modifier could not be added to the CM unless it was a trick of the weapon, such as a Trip Weapon.
Now, for some reason designers have decided you can use the weapon modifier and use any weapon for any CM, including Dirty Tricks, at ANY time. The only advantage to a trick weapon is that you are allowed to drop it and not be subject to an attack of opportunity.
So upon this weird new reasoning, you can Trip or Disarm or Blind, Drag or Reposition with the net even if you do not have the Exotic Weapon feat. You just suffer a lot of penalties to the attempt. So if I can conduct all these CMs with the net anyway, why add the ability to Trip or Disarm? Unless the intent to is allow you to drop the net to avoid AoOs when conducting these CMs?
:)
Personally, at my table if I run the game, until persuaded otherwise, I will go tithe the former interpretations. You can attempt the CM, but not using the weapon, unless otherwise stated in the description that weapon aids in the maneuver.
So yes, open to persuasion and illumination :)
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@Krome: the description of a net as a one-handed thrown weapon is in the Two-Weapon Fighting section of the core rule book (page 202) - so it's well hidden, but it is there, and has been for a long time.
damn rules :)
too many rules. The game suffers from rule bloat. :)
I miss 1st edition AD&D. :)
Well in defense of the poor designers of the later feats, that is an easy one to miss :) No one's perfect.
I have my 1st edition AD&D here... lol I may have to take our group back to REAL ROLEplaying and not RULEplaying. In the day, there was a game called Rolemaster, that we called Rulemaster for the extensive rules. 3.x system makes Rulemaster seem simple at times :) lol