The flight and prehensile hair hexes and action type


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

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A strict interpenetration: It is a standard action to activate these powers. Because "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."

"The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows."

"At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments."

These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"

The only opinion I want is a game developers, though feel free to give supportive bumps.

PS: What about infiltrator rangers adaptation power?


Axe Haggart wrote:

A strict interpenetration: It is a standard action to activate these powers. Because "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."

"The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows."

PRD wrote:
Prehensile Hair (Su): The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length,

I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

PRD wrote:
At 5th level, she can fly, as per the spell, for a number of minutes per day equal to her level.
PRD wrote:

Fly

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action

Flight Hex = per spell. Spell = standard action. Again, why would game designers need to chime in?


Fly would function as written: as per the spell, meaning the same action it takes to cast the spell. Standard action.

However, Prehensile Hair actually could use a clarification.

Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

Actually, yeah we do. There are three different types of actions to define "instantly" in the D&D/PF universe.

Is it an effortless (or near effortless) action that you perform instantly? Then it's a free action.

Is it an action that takes some noticeable amount of focus to perform, but still performed instantly? Then its a swift action.

Is it an action that takes a good amount of focus, but can be performed at virtually any point in time (even other people's turns)? Then its an immediate action.

However, by RAW, it would use a standard action, as per hex rules. If the flavor text was intended to change this to something shorter, it does in fact need to actually say so in game rules.


Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

Are you saying that any instantaneous spell is cast as a free action?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GâtFromKI wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....
Are you saying that any instantaneous spell is cast as a free action?

Instantaneous in spell effects refers to duration, not casting time.

Shadow Lodge

Kazejin wrote:

Fly would function as written: as per the spell, meaning the same action it takes to cast the spell. Standard action.

However, Prehensile Hair actually could use a clarification.

Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

Actually, yeah we do. There are three different types of actions to define "instantly" in the D&D/PF universe.

Is it an effortless (or near effortless) action that you perform instantly? Then it's a free action.

Is it an action that takes some noticeable amount of focus to perform, but still performed instantly? Then its a swift action.

Is it an action that takes a good amount of focus, but can be performed at virtually any point in time (even other people's turns)? Then its an immediate action.

However, by RAW, it would use a standard action, as per hex rules. If the flavor text was intended to change this to something shorter, it does in fact need to actually say so in game rules.

Posts like these horrify me.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Axe Haggart wrote:

A strict interpenetration: It is a standard action to activate these powers. Because "Unless otherwise noted, using a hex is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity."

"The witch can manipulate her hair a number of minutes each day equal to her level; these minutes do not need to be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments. A typical male witch with this hex can also manipulate his beard, moustache, or eyebrows."

The last might apply to female dwarves as well, depending on world species. :)

What you're citing would not be a strict interpretation, but standard. The reason the standard action is called that is because it's the default for any task, spell cast, ability activation, unless specifically excepted otherwise by the ability's description.

The only reason anybody is looking for "developer's lookover" 90 percent of the time is that they simply don't like the answer that's staring them straight in the face.


LazarX wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....
Are you saying that any instantaneous spell is cast as a free action?
Instantaneous in spell effects refers to duration, not casting time.

While "instantly" in the prehensile hair's description refer to the activation action. Which is therefore an "instantly action".

Oh no wait, your last post explains that the activation is a standard action, and the "instantly" doesn't refer to an action type at all. Well, you're just contradicting peoples to contradict peoples. Nevermind.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Axe Haggart wrote:
These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"

Why? What is making them sound different?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Kazejin wrote:

Fly would function as written: as per the spell, meaning the same action it takes to cast the spell. Standard action.

However, Prehensile Hair actually could use a clarification.

Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

Actually, yeah we do. There are three different types of actions to define "instantly" in the D&D/PF universe.

Is it an effortless (or near effortless) action that you perform instantly? Then it's a free action.

Is it an action that takes some noticeable amount of focus to perform, but still performed instantly? Then its a swift action.

Is it an action that takes a good amount of focus, but can be performed at virtually any point in time (even other people's turns)? Then its an immediate action.

However, by RAW, it would use a standard action, as per hex rules. If the flavor text was intended to change this to something shorter, it does in fact need to actually say so in game rules.

Posts like these horrify me.

What? You don't like highly abrasive posts put forth at 5:40 AM demanding developer clarifications on an issue that anyone who can read the second sentence in the OPs post already knows the answer to?

The hair grows to its new length instantly, but takes a standard action to get it to grow.

You don't activate it, wait 10 years for it to grow, THEN punch someone with your mustache.


Mok wrote:
Axe Haggart wrote:
These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"
Why? What is making them sound different?

As has been described, Prehensile Hair does imply that it is used 'instantly'. As that is meaningless in game terms though, it defaults to a Standard Action... which is pretty much the opposite of 'instantly'.

It functions OK as is, IMO, it just doesn't function as described.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KrispyXIV wrote:
Mok wrote:
Axe Haggart wrote:
These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"
Why? What is making them sound different?

As has been described, Prehensile Hair does imply that it is used 'instantly'. As that is meaningless in game terms though, it defaults to a Standard Action... which is pretty much the opposite of 'instantly'.

It functions OK as is, IMO, it just doesn't function as described.

Given that a standard action is only PART of a six second round, it's still pretty quick to me.


All actions are performed "instantly".

Adaption is an extraordinary ability and therefore requires a standard action to activate.

Sovereign Court

2 people marked this as a favorite.
KrispyXIV wrote:
Mok wrote:
Axe Haggart wrote:
These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"
Why? What is making them sound different?

As has been described, Prehensile Hair does imply that it is used 'instantly'. As that is meaningless in game terms though, it defaults to a Standard Action... which is pretty much the opposite of 'instantly'.

It functions OK as is, IMO, it just doesn't function as described.

Yeah, I wasn't as clear in my socratic confusion.

I suppose what I meant to ask is, "what makes you think that the fluff supersedes the exception based rule structure of the game?"

To the OP, fluff is fluff and stuff is stuff. If you're looking for official decisions then you just have to follow RAW, which is the "stuff" and ignore all descriptive text which is "fluff." The rules are written to get rid of interpretation, instead being driven by exception based keywords that cascade throughout the rules. Activate one keyword and it invokes other keywords that are attached to it.

Basically, if you want to follow RAW, the best way is to look at the rules as computer software, using a bunch of "If, then" commands. If you view the rules as being written in BASIC and are attached to some 8-bit sprites on the computer screen then it all starts to make sense. If however you're looking for a supercomputer modeled simulation that takes into account the myriad ways in which descriptive text can be measured, be prepared to start banging your head on the desk.


Kthulhu wrote:
Kazejin wrote:

Fly would function as written: as per the spell, meaning the same action it takes to cast the spell. Standard action.

However, Prehensile Hair actually could use a clarification.

Gallo wrote:
I don't think we need the game developers to chime in on the meaning of instantly....

Actually, yeah we do. There are three different types of actions to define "instantly" in the D&D/PF universe.

Is it an effortless (or near effortless) action that you perform instantly? Then it's a free action.

Is it an action that takes some noticeable amount of focus to perform, but still performed instantly? Then its a swift action.

Is it an action that takes a good amount of focus, but can be performed at virtually any point in time (even other people's turns)? Then its an immediate action.

However, by RAW, it would use a standard action, as per hex rules. If the flavor text was intended to change this to something shorter, it does in fact need to actually say so in game rules.

Posts like these horrify me.

I'm just responding to the previously made statement "we don't need the developers to chime in on the meaning of 'instantly'"

The word "instantly" has numerous implications when you apply it to game rules; so if the word was to have a game rule meaning, we do in fact need clarification (or perhaps more accurately, disambiguation).

But like I said, the RAW is pretty clear. Standard action unless specifically stated otherwise. Prehensile Hair, sadly, is not specifically stated to be otherwise... hence, its a Standard Action unless it gets some official response to the contrary. From my interpretation "instantly" was just a fluff word.

Liberty's Edge

Axe Haggart wrote:


These don't really sound like they where intended as standard actions to "turn on"

The only opinion I want is a game developers, though feel free to give supportive bumps.

I appreciate all the bumps guys. I know this is an issue we all feel passionate about. I have seen this question appear several times on the boards. I developer clarification/opinion is the only I seek, which would be greatly appreciate.

Lets keep up the bumpwork so this critical hot button issue gets some attention!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Axe Haggart wrote:


I appreciate all the bumps guys. I know this is an issue we all feel passionate about.

That's where you're wrong. I don't get worked up over rules minutiae. Arguing over rules is not one of my driving passions. Nor do I spend my days working out the mathmatical implications of die types, or modifiers.

I have an interest to be sure, but at best, it's a mild one.


My interpretation: They both cost a standard action to activate, but they don't cost a standard action each round to use. For instance, I can use a standard action to activate my prehensile hair for one minute, or two minutes, or any amount of time I like. Same thing for the flight hex.


Has there been any clarification on this? Any other arguments one way or the other?

"The witch can instantly cause her hair (or even her eyebrows) to grow up to 10 feet long or to shrink to its normal length."

This to me implies that whatever type of action switching to using the hair is, switching back to NOT using up the duration of this hex is also the exact same type of action. Both are state changes that the witch can instantly perform. So if you want to use the hair for one minute, does that mean you actually have to blow 2 standard actions? And what if you don't want to use your action to stop, but the maximum duration elapses? Does it automatically use your action for the round? If you have some effect like nauseated that eliminates your ability to take a standard action, does the effect go on indefinitely?

What RAW justification is there that to start using the duration is an action but to stop using the duration isn't? The only text that suggests this state change might be an action (an "instant" one), explicitly refers to changing in both directions in precisely the same manner. In what way do the rules as written here designate that "grow up to 10 feet long" would be an action, but "shrink to its normal length" would not be an action? That's an arbitrary personal interpretation.

I think the simplest interpretation of this is that spending the duration in whatever combination of 1 minute increments you like is not in fact any sort of action, or at most a free one. You simply choose when it's going to apply to you and it does. Literally instantly.


hogarth wrote:
My interpretation: They both cost a standard action to activate, but they don't cost a standard action each round to use. For instance, I can use a standard action to activate my prehensile hair for one minute, or two minutes, or any amount of time I like. Same thing for the flight hex.

That's how I understand it as well. I would like it better if the prehensile hair did not need this standard action to start but that's another point.

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