By reading the various AP threads, alot of folks seem to care that much for the ending chapter(s) of a particular AP.
As I read through of Shadows of Gallowspire I started thinking about this for some reason. I'm not big on the end caps myself but I must say
that Sound of a Thousand Screams (Kingmaker) and Shadows of Gallowspire (Carrion Crown) are excellent end caps for their respective APs. Kudos to Richard Pett and Brandon Hodge.
Thousand Screams blooms, high level Fey/First world encounters, and final showdown realy came together in a nice package. Alot of high level modules go all over the place with creatures, this one stayed Fey from beginning and added an evil-wonderland, semi-planar feel to it.
Shadows of Gallowspire also stays true to the Undead theme of things without being overdone. Between the Witchgates, Renchurch, and the amount of detail to the Whispering Way Cult's workings, It really drives the point home that you are at high level with some pretty grim consequences if you dont succeed (i.e. Tar-Baphon).
Anyone else have any particular favorite end caps?
I'll have to go with:
- Savage Tide's Prince of Demons (Demogorgon. 'nuff said)
- Legacy of Fire's The Final Wish (return to where it started!)
- Kingmaker's Sound of a Thousand Screams (don't see much with fey, especially at high level; 'Unseelie Court'-like area makes it even better)
Not too keen on Shadows of Gallowspire at all.
Age of Worms.
The last three segments( Kings of the Rift , into the wormcrawl fissure and dawn of a new age) were the most difficult adventures that i ever saw. When i gm , my players had no chance at all . It was a lot of fun for me.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of the issues for me with capstone adventures is when they come out of nowhere. For me the sixth book of an AP should be the culmination of the whole campaign, not a surprise.
That's why Sound of a Thousand Screams doesn't work for me. It's an excellent adventure on its own, but really for players it comes completely out of left field with no build up whatsoever.
I would have much preferred the war with Brevoy that the campaign seemed to be heading towards. Alternatively Nyrissa should have had much more of a buildup in the proceeding chapters. A wasted opportunity as far as I am concerned.
The Final Wish was much better. Jhavhul had been set up as the big bad for half the campaign and returning to the start was a really nice touch. As a standalone adventure it isn't as good as Sound of a Thousand Screams but in the context of the campaign as a whole it is better integrated, better forshadowed and makes much more sense.
I couldn't stand the end of Council of Thieves. Without giving too much away, it has the players dashing around the city doing little micro-quests that don't have anything really to do with the main plot, when at that moment they should be launching their final push against the villains. I ended up scrubbing it 100% and replacing it with something different.
Contributor
|
I loved the Final Wish as a story ender, but found it a little lacking in the actual execution. I think it's the juxtaposition against the Impossible Eye that killed me.
Age of Worms.
The last three segments( Kings of the Rift , into the wormcrawl fissure and dawn of a new age) were the most difficult adventures that i ever saw. When i gm , my players had no chance at all . It was a lot of fun for me.
Yeah. the AoW endgame is one the best I think they've ever written in terms of difficulty, story, and sheer coolness. I've ran or played in six APs, and nothing has ever equaled the epic-ness of 'Kings of the Rift'... I mean, the random encounters are flights of dragons! Besides that, the fights with Karzoug, Demogorgon and other BBEGs while awesome, are dwarfed by the Dragotha fight at the end of 'Into the Wormcrawl Fissure'.
As far as Pathfinder:
Rise of the Ruinlords
Curse of the Crimson Throne
Second Darkness
Legacy of Fire
Council of Thieves
Kingmaker I'm a player in this, but even though we're between modules 2 and 3, our DM has foreshadowed elements of the final module even now. Can't wait to see how it all goes down..
Serpent's Skull Haven't played, curious of anyone who's finished the AP how it plays and how the final module is. Is the BBEG memorable?
Carrion Crown
Wow, Just finished reading the end of Gallowspire (CC). This one could possibly end up being Pathfinder's "Tomb of Horrors" in sheer dificulty. Adorak really has some mean stuff in it.
I've run Second Darkness and Savage Tide and enjoyed the endings of both of those. Savage Tide was the best. The final fight against demogorgon has probably been the pinnacle of my dming career. The end of age of worms looks really awesome as well.
As a Dm I have run
Shackled City: Truely a wonderful ending, my party loved it as the first AP ever it is now overlooked, but I would run this again in a heartbeat if it weren't for all the other damn good AP lol.
Age of Worms: Due to deployments we didn't get to finish this one and it is a shame, the entire AP but especially the ending is so steeped in D&D history that it was an instant classic. When I rotate back into the DM chair it will be very difficult not bring this one out of moth balls and take my players back!!
Rise of the Rune Lords: Once again the Army screwed us (reoccuring theme in military gamers life)and we didnt get to finish this one.
Curse of the Crimson Throne: I have them at the end game of chapter II so we will have to wait and see.
As a Player:
STAP: I made a great choice as a PC ranger/totemic demon slayer. Like AOW it is an old school gamers dream AP. I loved every bit of it! Especially the tie in to Iggwilv!!
Age of Worms.
The last three segments( Kings of the Rift , into the wormcrawl fissure and dawn of a new age) were the most difficult adventures that i ever saw. When i gm , my players had no chance at all . It was a lot of fun for me.
Yeah. the AoW endgame is one the best I think they've ever written in terms of difficulty, story, and sheer coolness. I've ran or played in six APs, and nothing has ever equaled the epic-ness of 'Kings of the Rift'... I mean, the random encounters are flights of dragons! Besides that, the fights with Karzoug, Demogorgon and other BBEGs while awesome, are dwarfed by the Dragotha fight at the end of 'Into the Wormcrawl Fissure'.
As far as Pathfinder:
Rise of the Ruinlords ** spoiler omitted **
Curse of the Crimson Throne ** spoiler omitted **
Second Darkness ** spoiler omitted **...
And in my case the problems became bigger because my players failed in the Kings of the Rift (Brazzemal succeed in retrieve Dragotha Phylactery) so, the next two segments, things turn to be impossible. Greyhawk became in the end, GreyWORM.
This message is for Rakshaka...
In an old thread you mentioned statting out the minotaur on the Isle of Tilagos (with 10 levels of Fighter) that was dead and bringing him back to challenge the party.
Can you post his stats? I love the idea and would like to borrow it for my campaign!
@Ogrork:
Also, that was my second time running the campaign through. The first time, they completed it all the way. The second time (different group) ended with Brazzemal killing half the party and escaping with the Phylactery. At the end of the day, nothing can stop Anti-Magic field on a gargantuan sized monster.
@Ogrork:
Unfortunately, most of my 3.5 notes for everything except into "Into the WormCrawl" must have been dispersed as I can't seem to find notes for anything except that module and the final one. I DO remember how I built him.
-In 3.5 you could approximate a creature's Racial Ability Modifiers by subtracting 10 from its score and rounding up or down as appropriate. I did this for the minotaur and used elite array NPC point buy, giving him pretty decent scores (Str about 30 before buffs).
-Feats were something like this:WF: Greataxe, WS: Greataxe, GWF: Greataxe, GWS: Greataxe, Improved Crit: Greataxe, Power Attack, Cleave, Great cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will. I think he may have had some Feat that let him do extra damage on a charge.
-In the fight, Darl cast about 12 buffs on his Evil party, so the minotaur might have had a whole bunch of ridiculous Pact spells.
Hope that helps!
|
I confess that I was planning to run Carrion Crown until I read Shadows of Gallowspire.
I was spoiled on the concept of the magical tower of doom by Monte Cook's Ptolus. Much of Gallowspire's map is just walking up stairs. A construction of high magic that is supposed to also be a prison for one pf the world's most powerful evils could have been so much more and it left me really wanting. Additionally, the end felt like Paizo had decided they wanted to save the Whispering Tyrant for another day. I'm sure part of them wanted to make sure the party got its pound of flesh from their Whispering Way nemesis, but that need not have been the capstone encounter - they've even got a model for the Tyrant.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I confess that I was planning to run Carrion Crown until I read Shadows of Gallowspire.
** spoiler omitted **
I really want to understand your critique of the finale properly:
After fighting their way through a necropolis and being stalked through the dead streets of Adorak by the ravener Marrowgarth, the PCs' adventures terminate outside at the sealed sarcophagus of Golarian'sgreatest fiend. Populating this sarcophagus is an array of despicable creatures that must be overcome in order to stop the Tyrant's resurrection.
Within, there's an undead general who has heeded his master's call and returned from his banishment in the negative material plane, greeting PCs amid the impaled angelic guardians he's just slaughtered. There's a roiling undead storm gathered to welcome the Tyrant, an animated bone staircase with a malevolent sentience, keening ghosts, dangerous undead horrors chained to the tower, and the animated nightmares of the slumbering Tyrant himself trying to push PCs toward their deaths. Don't forget those pesky elementals of unholy fire from the sacrificial braziers.
There's also a rift in the dream plane caused by the Tyrant's troubled slumber and escaped nightmares, where a hungry Leng spider has slipped through to feed, a colony of the surviving remnants of Tar-Baphon's negative energy giant bat-steeds, and the Whispers of the Tyrant himself haunting PCs, compelling them to eat their own flesh or, you know, just jump from towering heights and go splat on the ground below.
Waiting on top of it all is the power behind the cult that has stopped the PCs at every turn of the 6-part AP, finally awaiting to get his comeuppance as he threatens to absorb the soul of the Tyrant into himself to usher in the rebirth of the most powerful horror to ever walk the world, and it is up to your party to stop him.
And this is just the stuff on the outside!
But, Bookkeeper, you read that and see a boring finale where your PCs are "just walking up stairs," and as a result nix an entire AP experience for your group?
Kids these days. Spoiled rotten. =-)
The finale of the adventure is 8 pages. If you read all the action above, and do truly see it as a leisurely stair-stroll, then replace it. You've got your aforementioned Ptolus. You've got Dungeons of Golarian that details Gallowspire's inner core and tells you exactly what you need to stat up Tar-Baphon. You've even got a couple of pages with suggested adventures connected to the AP in the back.
The fact is, the Tyrant is far too great a foe for PCs at the conclusion of this AP, and the interior of Gallowspire is way too great a challenge for PCs at the level this AP terminates. And top-or-bottom down design has nothing to do with it. It was scripted as such before a single freelancer set pen to paper, and the story that begins its tale in Chapter 1 concludes, as exactly planned a year in advance, in Chapter 6. The true destruction of the Tyrant will have to await another day...
My point is, if you like everything else about the AP enough to run it, and truly see the finale as boring and blasé as you propose, then call in one of your favorite towers of doom off the bench and replace it. Should be pretty easy to just plop it down in the middle of Adorak. Better yet, pick up Dungeons of Golarian, crack open those seals, and get your PCs to work stopping the Tyrant once and for all! Carrion Crown is a fantastic AP, and you do your players a disservice skipping it over disappointment of 8 pages. Don't miss out! =-)
Top-Down AP design is the way to go to have great part 6's. It seems to me Paizo designs the APs bottom up, I really wish they would reverse this. ... I still say the part 6's should be the best part of the AP so groups are inspired to get to it and not just slog through to finish the campaign.
This is one of the greatest posts I've read on Paizo in quite a while.
Top-Down AP design is the way to go to have great part 6's.This is one of the greatest posts I've read on Paizo in quite a while.
Cibet and I have had this conversation before in another thread, and I'm sure one of my Paizo bosses will step in here for a more thorough breakdown. While this idea is fantastic in concept, it is flawed with its base assumption. APs aren't designed from the top OR bottom down. They are comprehensively outlined by the lead designer, who plots out the entire AP, chapter by chapter, long before we freelancers get to work on our individual sections. So, the events of the finale ARE known to the writers of each other chapter from the minute they receive their assignments, and often in pretty good detail. Wes probably won't mind me revealing that the outline for Carrion Crown was in the neighborhood of 30 pages.
All that being said, since I started on APs, I've been pushing for more collaboration between authors. It isn't easy, because writers for the early chapters are furiously typing away trying to meet deadlines when oftentimes the writer for the finale hasn't been assigned yet, so it doesn't always work like you think, but that's the reality of publishing. When I was called in to write SoG, I think Chapter 4 was being wrapped up and Neil was neck-deep in Chapter 5 already, so the ship had sort of sailed on that, and it becomes the developer's job to incorporate the collaborative elements they think are important.
I'm paying very keen attention to the reception for the Carrion Crown finale to see what worked or didn't, but mostly from actual play. You never know when you might be called upon to do the next one! ;-)
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I confess that I was planning to run Carrion Crown until I read Shadows of Gallowspire.
** spoiler omitted **
I really want to understand your critique of the finale properly:
** spoiler omitted **
But, Bookkeeper, you read that and see a boring finale where your...
My apologies, I should be clearer.
I had restarted my AP subscription based on CC. Yet, as each book came out, my enthusiasm for it dwindled. I had resolved to make changes to several adventures and to replace Ashes at Dawn entirely - I think the developers gave Neil Spicer an impossible task and he wrote a very good adventure that is practically unplayable if your party includes Pharasmins or Paladins. So it was not that Gallowspire killed overwhelming enthusiasm, it was, no pun intended, the nail in the coffin.
For me, The final eight pages felt a bit like a cheat: a cult that called the Whispering Way, the home of the most dreaded necromancer in Golarion's history, and, after all that their final battle is with....a wanna-be. A powerful and dangerous wanna-be, to be certain, but still a guy [i]wishing[i/i] he was the dread lord.
I will still make use of a lot of that adventure. I think Renchurch is probably one of the best dungeons of undead I have read in a long time and presents a fantastic challenge to players who think their 15th level Cleric is going to solve all of their undead problems for them. I'm also presently playing in a PbP CC campaign to see how other GMs handle what I see as serious story challenges.
The bottom line for me is this: the more editing and writing of an AP I have to do myself, the less reason I have to buy the AP. The conclusion of CC made the amount of editing I would need to to do for my players more trouble than it was worth.
Thank you for the response and the critique of my answer. You're right: I haven't yet run it and therefore my opinion shod be taken with a healthy dollop of salt. Best of luck to you.
Well reasoned and expertly stated, BK. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify, not only for myself, but for those reading with an interest in the AP and how it might play out at their own game table. And that input helps us designers a lot for future AP considerations, so thank you! =-)