Five Things You Should Never Do in Epic Fantasy


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Someone (Shaun Farrell?) posted an interesting article on adventuresinscifipublishing.com entitled: Five Things You Should Never Do in Epic Fantasy.

It is technically about writing fiction, but I think the advice could just as easily apply to writing PF adventures.

The list is summarized as follows, but see the article for the full explanation:

1) Do not put baled hay into a world that has not had its Industrial Revolution.
2) Don’t throw in obvious gibberish and pretend it’s a language.
3) Don’t use extremely modern slang and glaringly modern words.
4) Don’t use primary-world proper nouns that have become adjectives or metaphoric nouns.
5) Don’t fail to consider the economic complexities of your world.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.

1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

Scarab Sages

W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

HEAR HEAR!


7 people marked this as a favorite.

0) Do not assume that term "Epic Fantasy" means the same to everyone.

Cases in question:
- Urth of New Sun
- Dark Tower

Pathfinder specific examples:
- Numeria
- Mana Wastes

Regards,
Ruemere


ruemere wrote:

0) Do not assume that term "Epic Fantasy" means the same to everyone.

Cases in question:
- Urth of New Sun
- Dark Tower

Pathfinder specific examples:
- Numeria
- Mana Wastes

Regards,
Ruemere

+1

Also King's book on writing has some really good suggestions.

Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.

Sovereign Court

W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...

Liberty's Edge

Hama wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...

I agree as well.

I also think that psionics has no place in fantasy. Sci fi yes, but not fantasy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

All of this presupposes a fairly narrow view of what fantasy is and means.

Gnomes are sometimes presented as fairly steampunkish, which carries with it a fair bit of technological innovation.

Language is how we communicate and think. Its easier for me to describe something as similar to what you already know than to teach you a completely new concept.

Literature writing advice sometimes fall flat for running a game.


Hama wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...

Magic has no place in heroic fantasy! Same for: swords, elves, hobbits, halfings, orcs, castles, dragons, trolls, tea, the word "haughty" or the letter Z.

Silver Crusade

ruemere wrote:

0) Do not assume that term "Epic Fantasy" means the same to everyone.

Cases in question:
- Urth of New Sun
- Dark Tower

Pathfinder specific examples:
- Numeria
- Mana Wastes

Regards,
Ruemere

This.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

Ugh, still with this?

I like guns in my fantasy, I, and my players all think it's pretty epic and fantastic. One of whom has a pair of pistols called Hocus and Pocus. So this "rule" can climb in a pirate cannon and get fired into R'Lyeh.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

Ugh, still with this?

I like guns in my fantasy, I, and my players all think it's pretty epic and fantastic. One of whom has a pair of pistols called Hocus and Pocus. So this "rule" can climb in a pirate cannon and get fired into R'Lyeh.

Amen. Heck there are even instances in the Pathfinder campaign setting book that mention guns...


W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.


5 people marked this as a favorite.

Don't forget the most important rule of all!

Don't have fun.

Fun is the enemy! In its blissful cavorting about the fantasy world it tramples the incredibly precise and exhaustively researched historical accuracy we so adore! Some might tell you that some slack can be allowed for modern conventions for usability and accessability. Don't listen to this hideous temptation! In fact, don't use modern English at all! From now on, not only should your roleplaying be in archaich precursors to English, but the rulebooks should be written in the same!

:P


Wow, tough crowd. I didn't realize some guy's list of suggestions for ways to avoid possible mistakes in world-building and storytelling would provoke so much vitriol for guns in PF. Especially since it isn't even about guns. My bad?

I rarely post on here, but I found his thoughts on (4) and (5) to be particularly stimulating so I thought I'd share. I never considered the way terms like "vandalize" or "champagne" could break verisimilitude for a reader (player) before. And the comments on the economy aren't about figuring out the economics of your fake-world, but instead gives us a way to identify how much accuracy is needed. I thought it was interesting.


Ayronis wrote:


I rarely post on here, but I found his thoughts on (4) and (5) to be particularly stimulating so I thought I'd share. I never considered the way terms like "vandalize" or "champagne" could break verisimilitude for a reader (player) before. And the comments on the economy aren't about figuring out the economics of your fake-world, but instead gives us a way to identify how much accuracy is needed. I thought it was interesting.

And yet one of the best selling authors of the 20th century says use the accessible language which seems to contradict #4 as vandalize and champagne will be discreet information packets readily absorbed by the reader. Ok, maybe not in the specific spoken lines of a character but when describing a scene why not?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ayronis wrote:
Wow, tough crowd. I didn't realize some guy's list of suggestions for ways to avoid possible mistakes in world-building and storytelling would provoke so much vitriol for guns in PF. Especially since it isn't even about guns. My bad?

One of the things I find great about these forums is that lots of posters don't just read and accept, but challenge and question. As often as I'm frustrated by it, I'm more often encouraged and educated by it, and it's always valuable to me.

Ayronis wrote:
I rarely post on here, but I found his thoughts on (4) and (5) to be particularly stimulating so I thought I'd share. I never considered the way terms like "vandalize" or "champagne" could break verisimilitude for a reader (player) before. And the comments on the economy aren't about figuring out the economics of your fake-world, but instead gives us a way to identify how much accuracy is needed. I thought it was interesting.

I think the problem here is that though the article is indeed interesting, it's only useful or stimulating if you accept its presuppositions, no? Me, for example; "verisimilitude" is the last thing my players want in most of my games. They could give a crap what the root of a word is or if its existence assumes industrialization or whatever. So for them, "how much accuracy" generally equals zero. This, obviously, rather torpedoes the article before it even leaves the dock since the basic question the author seeks to answer is not a question I'm interested even in asking, much less having answered.

Or, for the tl;dr crowd: YMMV


Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy 7; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.

FTFY

Hey now, I grew up with Final Fantasy as well, and there were no guns in the first 6 (I started with the first one on NES).

Also, I thought guns are what made plate mail obsolete? I thought plate mail was developed mostly for jousting and melee?


Josh M. wrote:
Good stuff

Those games didn't come out until I was in my late teens and they along with Dark Tower and Bakshi's Wizards made me see a great place where guns and swords and sorcery all are happy partners.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

1st: Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

Fantasy is anything that does not exist in reality. That's a pretty wide assortment of things. And just because something does exist in reality, that's no reason to exclude it.

Shadow Lodge

CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Hama wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...

I agree as well.

I also think that psionics has no place in fantasy. Sci fi yes, but not fantasy.

I would be interested to see how L.E. Modesitt's Saga of Recluce and Corean Chronicles affect your views.

Liberty's Edge

I find that Orson Scott Card's "How to write in science fiction and fantasy" to be a very informative read.


Josh M. wrote:
Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy 7; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.

FTFY

Hey now, I grew up with Final Fantasy as well, and there were no guns in the first 6 (I started with the first one on NES).

Also, I thought guns are what made plate mail obsolete? I thought plate mail was developed mostly for jousting and melee?

*laughinggirls.png*

He never encountered the WarMech/Death Machine!

Also, the magitek suits and a number of enemies from FF6 would like a word about a lack of guns. Even if they aren't necessarily using standard bullet layouts - bioblaster as an example, though they at least kept Edgar using crossbows at first, rather than a hand cannon.


Josh M. wrote:
Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy 7; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.

FTFY

Hey now, I grew up with Final Fantasy as well, and there were no guns in the first 6 (I started with the first one on NES).

Also, I thought guns are what made plate mail obsolete? I thought plate mail was developed mostly for jousting and melee?

Actually the term bulletproof came about because an armorer would often fire a pistol or musket at close range into their full plate to test it's ability to stop it. If it could, the plates were "bulletproof" and were good enough to be sold. Armorers would point out the dent to show they were shot at.


TheAntiElite wrote:


*laughinggirls.png*

He never encountered the WarMech/Death Machine!

Also, the magitek suits and a number of enemies from FF6 would like a word about a lack of guns. Even if they aren't necessarily using standard bullet layouts - bioblaster as an example, though they at least kept Edgar using crossbows at first, rather than a hand cannon.

Oh, I encountered Warmech. Walked back and forth on that walkway for a good 2 hours to get him to attack. But the PC's didn't use guns. All that crazy technology was the stuff of a lost civilization.

And up to 6, yeah Edgar had some spiffy machines, but he didn't use a "gun." The autocrossbow was pretty close, but crossbows existed way before that. My point being, that "gun" technology was rare, only handled by the military, and even then, relied on magic as ammunition. It wasn't until 7 that we saw player characters actually using guns(Barret, for example).

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
CapeCodRPGer wrote:
Hama wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
I completely agree...guns have no place in heroic fantasy. whatsoever...

I agree as well.

I also think that psionics has no place in fantasy. Sci fi yes, but not fantasy.

And what is sci-fi, if not fantasy redressed in chrome?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

One of my pet peeves, more in fantasy fiction than in gaming:

If it looks like an elf, talks like an elf, and is sparkly like an elf, then call it a frakking elf.

I've read too many fantasy stories, whether written by friends or by published authors, where they describe a tall (or very short), slender, pale-skinned (or black-skinned), pointy-eared being--normally who lives in the forest and is at one with nature and/or really good at magic--and then they proceed to call them a "sidhe" or a "sylvan" or a "smeerf" or what have you.

Dude. It's fantasy. It's an elf. If you're ashamed of using elves, DON'T USE THEM. If you're not ashamed of using elves, then don't try to change the name and hope nobody will notice (or will praise you for how "different" you're being). Not to mention, elves come from a lovely portion of northern European mythology and it's not like you're violating someone's IP by using them.

I know this isn't quite the kind of complaint you were looking for, but it pops up in newer attempts at high fantasy a lot and it's annoying as hell.

Liberty's Edge

When was the worlds first gun invented? I think it was in china wasnt it? People used guns in medievel times. Primitive tubes with stone balls and crude black powder, but they still existed.

(I just checked wikipedia)

"The earliest depiction of a firearm is a sculpture from a cave in Sichuan, China. The sculpture dates to the 12th century and is of a figure carrying a vase-shaped bombard with flames and a cannonball coming out of it.[1] The oldest surviving gun, made of bronze, has been dated to 1288 because it was discovered at a site in modern-day Acheng District, Heilongjiang, China, where the Yuan Shi records that battles were fought at that time."


Ion Raven wrote:
I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Yes, and for quite along time too. To be fair however, 'guns' were for a long time not portable by one person and 'cannon' would have been a more appropriate term.

Ion Raven wrote:
Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns

This I refute however

As for fantasy, even Tolkien's the Hobbit and LotR have insinuations to guns, bombs and cannons (devilries from Saruman).

That being said, I prefer sword and sorcery type of fantasy OR sword and black-powder fantasy. It's the cohabitation of magic and technology (especially when technology recreates magic and magic recreates technology) that I have a problem with. So I would add:

6) Don't mix magic with technology, unless it becomes central part of the setting.

'findel


The funny thing is if you view this from a caveman a magical iron sword would be mixing magic and technology. As a sword is an invention and something developed so it is technology.

Sovereign Court

Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

So? I do not really care about real world historical accuracy when i design my campaign setting. I don't care that guns existed in medieval times (if guns they could be called), to me, guns have no place in heroic fantasy simply because it feels wrong. To me they mesh horribly with swords and bows.


Josh M. wrote:
TheAntiElite wrote:


*laughinggirls.png*

He never encountered the WarMech/Death Machine!

Also, the magitek suits and a number of enemies from FF6 would like a word about a lack of guns. Even if they aren't necessarily using standard bullet layouts - bioblaster as an example, though they at least kept Edgar using crossbows at first, rather than a hand cannon.

Oh, I encountered Warmech. Walked back and forth on that walkway for a good 2 hours to get him to attack. But the PC's didn't use guns. All that crazy technology was the stuff of a lost civilization.

And up to 6, yeah Edgar had some spiffy machines, but he didn't use a "gun." The autocrossbow was pretty close, but crossbows existed way before that. My point being, that "gun" technology was rare, only handled by the military, and even then, relied on magic as ammunition. It wasn't until 7 that we saw player characters actually using guns(Barret, for example).

So by your estimation the beam attacks from the magitek suits do not sufficiently constitute firearms? That I would grant, as their implementation is more akin to more sci-fi laser/cryolaser/whatever effects, the way they were handled in Dragonstar. The autocrossbow is definitely a crossbow, and not a gun; the Air Anchor, however, is as gun as gun can be, even though its damage component was a bit of a twist.

Also - guns in the hands of an enemy are still guns, even if the protagonist didn't use them. They still have their place.

The snippet from the GMG about magic and technology keeps coming to mind.


So do people know fantasy when they see it?

Let us not get into the other aspects of thinking that way when it is used as that would start a flamewar.


DeathQuaker wrote:

One of my pet peeves, more in fantasy fiction than in gaming:

If it looks like an elf, talks like an elf, and is sparkly like an elf, then call it a frakking elf.

I've read too many fantasy stories, whether written by friends or by published authors, where they describe a tall (or very short), slender, pale-skinned (or black-skinned), pointy-eared being--normally who lives in the forest and is at one with nature and/or really good at magic--and then they proceed to call them a "sidhe" or a "sylvan" or a "smeerf" or what have you.

Dude. It's fantasy. It's an elf. If you're ashamed of using elves, DON'T USE THEM. If you're not ashamed of using elves, then don't try to change the name and hope nobody will notice (or will praise you for how "different" you're being). Not to mention, elves come from a lovely portion of northern European mythology and it's not like you're violating someone's IP by using them.

I know this isn't quite the kind of complaint you were looking for, but it pops up in newer attempts at high fantasy a lot and it's annoying as hell.

Meh I'm good with Sidhe, the others... sure I can go with you on.


Anyway, I'm done talking about guns,

Quote:
1) Do not put baled hay into a world that has not had its Industrial Revolution.

To be honest, this is probably the only rule that I would take without any real scrutiny. It's less about the baled hay and making your world feel complete. It's important for the players to feel that things have sources even if the sources are contrived (such as an ancient ruined but technologically advanced civilization). Otherwise observant players will question where it came from, and some will even try to get some for themselves.

Quote:
2) Don’t throw in obvious gibberish and pretend it’s a language.

In a book or something where the 'gibberish' can be repeated exactly, you might want to know what the 'gibberish' means; the only reason for this is for those people who like to decipher things. If you really don't care about them, then don't worry about it. Not everyone can be Tolkien and make their own languages, and a lot of people don't want to bother borrowing another language to use (There could be a lot of unfortunate unintentional associations because of such). If you're gaming, and you're on the fly, gibberish works just fine if you don't want to break character to say, "the character speaks gibberish".

Quote:
3) Don’t use extremely modern slang and glaringly modern words.

This depends on your group. The whole reason to use slang in a performance is to give off a personality. In writing, slang doesn't come off right anyway, and the best thing is to describe how the character speaks. While gaming though, most people will try to put the feel directly into the character they are speaking as; it's called acting. The only reason to not use modern slang (when the archetype calls for slang) is if the world is complete in such a way that the even the common slang is described (this is up to the GMs).

Quote:
4) Don’t use primary-world proper nouns that have become adjectives or metaphoric nouns.

That is just being nit picky. This is only good advice if you are writing yet another psuedo-medieval time novel. What is important is to use clear language. I will smack anybody who raises their nose at me when I use the word, 'pants' to describe trousers. The people I talk to and GM for know what I'm talking about and that's what is important. It's called Translation Convention.

Quote:
5) Don’t fail to consider the economic complexities of your world.

This will forever fail on Pathfinder and any Game System that uses Dungeons and Dragons Econonomy. Great advice for creating a world, but it's something that most gamers graciously overlook.

Grand Lodge

TOZ wrote:
1st: Never get involved in a land war in Asia.

wins thread

Shadow Lodge

Dragonsong wrote:

And yet one of the best selling authors of the 20th century says use the accessible language which seems to contradict #4 as vandalize and champagne will be discreet information packets readily absorbed by the reader. Ok, maybe not in the specific spoken lines of a character but when describing a scene why not?

Fiction Rule of Thumb.


TOZ wrote:
Dragonsong wrote:

And yet one of the best selling authors of the 20th century says use the accessible language which seems to contradict #4 as vandalize and champagne will be discreet information packets readily absorbed by the reader. Ok, maybe not in the specific spoken lines of a character but when describing a scene why not?

Fiction Rule of Thumb.

Only funny because it's true.

Liberty's Edge

Ayronis wrote:

Someone (Shaun Farrell?) posted an interesting article on adventuresinscifipublishing.com entitled: Five Things You Should Never Do in Epic Fantasy.

Thanks for posting. I don’t agree in all cases, but they are some interesting thoughts.

Liberty's Edge

W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.


Dragonsong wrote:
ruemere wrote:

0) Do not assume that term "Epic Fantasy" means the same to everyone.

Cases in question:
- Urth of New Sun
- Dark Tower

Pathfinder specific examples:
- Numeria
- Mana Wastes

Regards,
Ruemere

+1

Also King's book on writing has some really good suggestions.

Does the bread magically make you full after 2 bites, does it give you the visions of the dead whose bones were used to make it? No, then call it bread dot give it a special name unless it is special.Is perhaps one of the best ones for aspiring writers.

Not sure I entirely agree.

If the bread has special social significance, or is a regional variation, different from the normal bread of the world, calling it by other names should be fine. In the real world, not all bread is called bread. Just make sure the reader is aware it is a subset of bread.

Talking about Nash loafs, which are an unleaven bread, made for holy days, or sophan, a regional soda bread, with poppy seeds and sun dried tomatos, as long as the read is made aware that they are breads, shouldn't be to big a deal


Dragonsong wrote:
Josh M. wrote:
Good stuff
Those games didn't come out until I was in my late teens and they along with Dark Tower and Bakshi's Wizards made me see a great place where guns and swords and sorcery all are happy partners.

Gunpowder and wizardry have happily co-existed in my world view of fantasy almost form the earliest point. Only the hobbit and narnia came before warhammer for me, and warhammer had guns, cannons and gunpowder.

Guns do not work in all fantasy. I wouldn't want to see them in dark sun(though this might just be relatively limited knowledge of the setting). But that doesn't mean they have no place in any fantasy setting.


Abraham spalding wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:

One of my pet peeves, more in fantasy fiction than in gaming:

If it looks like an elf, talks like an elf, and is sparkly like an elf, then call it a frakking elf.

I've read too many fantasy stories, whether written by friends or by published authors, where they describe a tall (or very short), slender, pale-skinned (or black-skinned), pointy-eared being--normally who lives in the forest and is at one with nature and/or really good at magic--and then they proceed to call them a "sidhe" or a "sylvan" or a "smeerf" or what have you.

Dude. It's fantasy. It's an elf. If you're ashamed of using elves, DON'T USE THEM. If you're not ashamed of using elves, then don't try to change the name and hope nobody will notice (or will praise you for how "different" you're being). Not to mention, elves come from a lovely portion of northern European mythology and it's not like you're violating someone's IP by using them.

I know this isn't quite the kind of complaint you were looking for, but it pops up in newer attempts at high fantasy a lot and it's annoying as hell.

Meh I'm good with Sidhe, the others... sure I can go with you on.

I am okay with Sidhe, especially if the setting is celtic(irish) inspired.

I am also okay with sith, but generally only if it is Celtic scottish inspired.

Sovereign Court

Mothman wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.

Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.


Hama wrote:
Mothman wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.
Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.

Doesn't make "1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy." a good generalised rule though, does it? Especially not in reference to Pathfinder, which explicitly does contain such elements.

I don't much like vancian casting, but you'll not catch me saying "1} No one should ever bring a vancian casting (or "vancian wizards") into Pathfinder fantasy."


Ayronis wrote:

Wow, tough crowd. I didn't realize some guy's list of suggestions for ways to avoid possible mistakes in world-building and storytelling would provoke so much vitriol for guns in PF. Especially since it isn't even about guns. My bad?

I rarely post on here, but I found his thoughts on (4) and (5) to be particularly stimulating so I thought I'd share. I never considered the way terms like "vandalize" or "champagne" could break verisimilitude for a reader (player) before. And the comments on the economy aren't about figuring out the economics of your fake-world, but instead gives us a way to identify how much accuracy is needed. I thought it was interesting.

It is a good article, but it's really geared towards writers. Advice for writers sometimes contains useful information for gamers, but not always. Talking about syntax or word selection is of minimal value for a game, but it's huge for writing.

One area that is useful to both is the art of storytelling. Learning why we like some great books/movies/etc, like the elements that make up those stories may shed light on how we can bring them into our games, both as a GM and a player. I find as my understanding of how a good story can develop, my skill as a player is growing faster than my skill as a GM. It's helped me move from making choices to "win" to making choices that make a cool story.

Liberty's Edge

Zombieneighbours wrote:
Hama wrote:
Mothman wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.
Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.

Doesn't make "1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy." a good generalised rule though, does it? Especially not in reference to Pathfinder, which explicitly does contain such elements.

I don't much like vancian casting, but you'll not catch me saying "1} No one should ever bring a vancian casting (or "vancian wizards") into Pathfinder fantasy."

Exactly. “I don’t like guns in fantasy”, “I don’t allow guns when I run Pathfinder”, or even “Putting guns into Pathfinder is the worst decision Paizo has ever made and I’ll put that opinion to all who want to hear it and many who don’t”, are all perfectly valid comments. The ‘rule’ that was proposed is not.

The Exchange

Josh M. wrote:
Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy 7; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.

FTFY

Hey now, I grew up with Final Fantasy as well, and there were no guns in the first 6 (I started with the first one on NES).

Also, I thought guns are what made plate mail obsolete? I thought plate mail was developed mostly for jousting and melee?

Guns were in the gameboy titles from the first one, The Final Fantasy Legend on. Along with robots and other technological things.

The Exchange

Zombieneighbours wrote:
Hama wrote:
Mothman wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.
Considering that Pathfinder fantasy specifically includes rules for guns (and “gunslingers”) that seems like a poor rule.
Not really, some people just don't want guns messing up their fantasy, others think it's ok and third love it. It's the approach.

Doesn't make "1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy." a good generalised rule though, does it? Especially not in reference to Pathfinder, which explicitly does contain such elements.

I don't much like vancian casting, but you'll not catch me saying "1} No one should ever bring a vancian casting (or "vancian wizards") into Pathfinder fantasy."

:-D

I rarely agree with ZN, but this is awesome!


Wolfthulhu wrote:
Josh M. wrote:
Ion Raven wrote:
W E Ray wrote:
1} No one should ever bring a gun (or "gunslinger") in Pathfinder fantasy.

I don't understand the hate for guns in fantasy... Historically, Firearms and Full Plate existed side by side...

Full Plate was developed to protect soldiers from guns, thus the term bullet proof; though armor in D&D / Pathfinder is ridiculous and unrealistic what with it slowing down its soldiers and being completely useless against guns. :\

Also I grew up with Final Fantasy 7; further compounding my confusion for the hate of guns in Fantasy.

FTFY

Hey now, I grew up with Final Fantasy as well, and there were no guns in the first 6 (I started with the first one on NES).

Also, I thought guns are what made plate mail obsolete? I thought plate mail was developed mostly for jousting and melee?

Guns were in the gameboy titles from the first one, The Final Fantasy Legend on. Along with robots and other technological things.

Oh yeah! I forgot about those. I only had FFL 1 and 3, and FF Adventure(the zelda clone). I really did forget those had guns in them.

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