Normally I'd consider sacred and profane to be "like-named bonuses," so they wouldn't stack.
But you're talking about a 20th-level character, so he/she should be able to do outrageous, potentially game-breaking things. Then again, since I normally get fed up by 15th level or so and start a new campaign at 1st, I'm probably not the best one to advise you on this...
Personally, I would consider them to cancel each other out to at least some degree. Yes, technically, they are two distinct types of bonuses, but as polar opposites, they would still have some effect on each other. I'd probably cut each of the bonuses in half to reflect this; that still lets the player get a decent benefit, but doesn't let them get away with something that the rules say is fine, but logic and the story say is a bit dubious.
Hi,
Concept
Neutral Deity + Versatile Channeler + Holy Vindicator, Lvl 10 Cleric, Level 10 Holy Vindicator
Character normally Channels negative Energy, versatile channeler (Ultimate Magic) allows to channel the other type at -2 Levels, Vindicator shield Class Ability allows to give up a channel energy use to load a shield with a profane/sacred bonus up to the channel dice expended. Vidicator and Cleric levels stack for calculating channel dice.
Can the versatile channeler now spend a 10d6 negative channel to empower his shield with a +10 profane bonus and then a 9d6 postive channel to add a +9 sacred bonus?
Putting this on a +5 Tower Shield would add up to a total shield bonus of
+28 (+4+5+10+9)???
RAW I think the answer is yes, but I don't think they were ever intended to work that way.
Creatures that normally use profane bonuses would never use sacred in most cases, and the devs can't account for every rules combo. I will be houseruling sacred and profane into the same bonus type so they don't stack now that this has been brought to my attention.
We would have counted it as opposing magics. Like putting both frost and fire on the same sword and would not have allowed it.
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Like putting both frost and fire on the same sword...
...which is explicitly allowed in the rules...
We would have counted it as opposing magics. Like putting both frost and fire on the same sword and would not have allowed it.
What!? Than how am I supposed to make the "Sword of Ice & Fire" that encases whatever it strikes in steaming ice?
On the topic at hand, I agree that it does appear to work by RAW.
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Some ideas on this:
from the PRD on the Holy Vindicator's shield ability:
A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator's channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first.
So, I bolded a few parts that may be important for this one:
the choice is either a sacred bonus or a profane bonus, and it lasts 24 hours or until they are struck in combat.
The first seems to spell out that it is an either/or thing and not a both thing. Even if you allow both, something like a melee touch attack (via brilliant energy or alchemist bombs, or any number of things by that level), which bypass any shield bonus, would end the effect.
I personally do not view it as a legal combo per RAW, but if allowed, is not too hard to break.
Two Points.
1) It gives the SHIELD a huge bonus, not a profane/sacred bonus to AC. Getting struck while using a shield is not that hard...just make a touch attack to grab the shield, or something.
2) Since Vindicator Shield is the 'source' of the ability, the two bonuses won't apply...they are same 'source', even if the bonus is different. Basically, you're just giving him the choice of which bonus to use...if he tries to stack them, the newest one will cancel out the previous.
This is akin to the old Artificer ability which could grant up to +1, +3, +5 abilities. You couldn't stack ten different abilities, because they all came from the same spell. This power is exactly identical.
===Aelryinth
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Round 1 Quickend True strike Full Attack I rule!!!!!!!
Swing 1 base attack 20 +20 for True strike, Woo hoo I owned that AC 45 Take that.
Swing 2 Base Attack 10 -5 Second attack +0 True strike says FIRST attack of the round NOT every attack... what do you mean I need a natural 20 to hit... I bought true strike at will and quickened it.GM Sorry, you only quicken 1 spell a round and True strike works on your first attack after it is cast within a round...
Player but I wasted all that gold on a true strike sword.
GM: YEs you did, btw if you spent that money on a resist cloak you might not be dominated now. Activate true strike and attack the Cleric.
read it again, it doesn't say first attack, it says next single attack. you could rule that this means that you can only use it if you take a single attack in the round, but if his second attack only hits on a nat 20 anyways as you posed, then he needed the sword to begin with.
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Some ideas on this:
from the PRD on the Holy Vindicator's shield ability:
A vindicator can channel energy into his shield as a standard action; when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (if positive energy) or profane bonus (if negative energy) to his Armor Class equal to the number of dice of the vindicator's channel energy. This bonus lasts for 24 hours or until the vindicator is struck in combat, whichever comes first.So, I bolded a few parts that may be important for this one:
the choice is either a sacred bonus or a profane bonus, and it lasts 24 hours or until they are struck in combat.
The first seems to spell out that it is an either/or thing and not a both thing. Even if you allow both, something like a melee touch attack (via brilliant energy or alchemist bombs, or any number of things by that level), which bypass any shield bonus, would end the effect.
I personally do not view it as a legal combo per RAW, but if allowed, is not too hard to break.
The profane or sacred is only there to stipulate the difference between using negative energy or positive energy. It is not there as a limitation.
As an example the imaginary feat follows:
Choosing this feat gives you a +5 bonus to AC if you are a rogue or a +5 to reflex if you are a fighter.
As written a fighter/rogue should be able to double dip even if that was not the intent.
I know a bonus to AC is not a bonus to reflex, but a profane bonus is not a sacred bonus either.PS:I am not saying that both AC bonuses should be allowed, but as written it is hard to argue against.
Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses. He can't have both bonuses active at the same time any more then he could have two of the same bonuses active and overlapping. The most recent one replaces the one before it, as normal for such uses of things.
==Aelryinth
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That's very straight forward.
No its not. It is saying if you use X you get Y, but if you use A you get B.
It never says you can't use X and A to be B and Y.In short the versatile channel ability was never accounted for, and another limitor needs to be written in since the way it was written assumes you would only be able to channel one or the other.
Another example is this.
I can go to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower or I can go to New York to see the Statue of Liberty.
Does that mean if I find a way go to New York and Paris the Statue of Liberty is going to be invisible if I find a way to make it to both places?
Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.
Like putting both frost and fire on the same sword......which is explicitly allowed in the rules...
I know, but most groups I have seen, do not allow it.
The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
The rules also say same effects don't stack.
The rule you're quoting is because untyped bonuses normally DO stack. This is a specific call out that if they come from the same source, they do NOT (i.e. you can't get 3 bonuses to AC from Wisdom).
The rule I'm speaking of is that different effects from the same source don't stack, because only the most recent casting of such an effect applies.
Example: Imbue Greater Magic Weapon. You can give a weapon any effect up to +5. So, you can make a Brilliant Vorpal Greater Wounding Avenger and stack it on your +5 Holy Axiomatic Keen sword for effective +28 bonuses or so, right?
No. If the DM allows you to exceed the +10 limit, each casting of Imbue Greater Magic Weapon Overrides the casting before it...it's the same spell, even though all the effects and bonuses are different, and only the most recent one applies.
It's a fairly universal rule (think Polymorph Self and Alter Self...the bonuses don't stack, only the most recent one) for flexible spells, preventing stacking of the same spell to cumulative effect.
===========================
Ergo, he's using His Vindicator Shield power. The point is not that sacred stacks with profane. It's that Vindicator Shield does not stack with Vindicator Shield...they are the same spell. Only the most recent casting would apply.
===Aelryinth
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It is saying if you use X you get Y, but if you use A you get B. It never says you can't use X and A to be B and Y.It says "when worn, the shield gives Y bonus or B bonus".
It never says you can get Y bonus and B bonus at the same time. You can get Y bonus or B bonus, but you just can't get them at the same time.
Actually, you're both wrong. It says "if you have A ability you get B, if you have X ability you get Y." But the person in question has both A and X, making them capable of getting both B and Y, which isn't mentioned by the ability because normally A and X are mutually exclusive.
Quite frankly, if you spent the time and effort to possess what are normally mutually exclusive abilities, I don't have a problem as DM with allowing you to make use of them.
I DO think that it would technically be the same source (same ability giving both bonuses) and so would not work by RAW.
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It is saying if you use X you get Y, but if you use A you get B. It never says you can't use X and A to be B and Y.It says "when worn, the shield gives Y bonus or B bonus".
That changes nothing. The issue is the use of positive and negative energy, which is assumed to be limited by the ability in question, but due to versatile channel is not.
It never says you can get Y bonus and B bonus at the same time. You can get Y bonus or B bonus, but you just can't get them at the same time.
It never says you can't either, but only because one option was available at the time of the printing.
The logical OR means that when you are in New York, you will not see the Eiffel Tower and when you are in Paris, you will not see the Statue of Liberty.
I agree with you on the RAI, but RAW just has or in this case is nonspecific. The "or" is valid both ways.
This is the logical AND statement form.
We agree on this part. RAW does not account for common sense, which you are trying to do with your argument, RAI does. Putting common sense aside there is nothing in the rules preventing this. Once we start using anything than the rules as written we are in RAI territory which is not part of my argument,since I said in my first post the ability was not intend to use both. :)
If you find a way to be in both places at the same time, then you are going to be a very rich person... grin
That would be akin to the ability stating I had to active the channel to use negative and positive energy all at the same time. The OP was channeling twice to get both, and I am making two separate trips, one to Paris, and one to New York.
The limitation in my example was supposed to limit me to one city or the other, but I found a way to make it to both. <---So I ask again is the Statue of Liberty now invisible?
The problem is you're no longer in New York, not that the statue is invisible. Now, if they could move the Statue to Paris after your jet ride (the use of the power) you'd be all set.
==Aelryinth
I say its not RAI and I would read it as non-RAW as well. You simply can not be both holy and unholy. Its one or the other. In the case above you have a +1 profane shield. As the rest cancelled each other out.
I'd say it is too silly to think on it too long, it probably should need a rule for the RAW loving crowd to be able to accept it as not legal though...
The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
The rules also say same effects don't stack.
The rule you're quoting is because untyped bonuses normally DO stack. This is a specific call out that if they come from the same source, they do NOT (i.e. you can't get 3 bonuses to AC from Wisdom).
The rule I'm speaking of is that different effects from the same source don't stack, because only the most recent casting of such an effect applies.
Example: Imbue Greater Magic Weapon. You can give a weapon any effect up to +5. So, you can make a Brilliant Vorpal Greater Wounding Avenger and stack it on your +5 Holy Axiomatic Keen sword for effective +28 bonuses or so, right?
No. If the DM allows you to exceed the +10 limit, each casting of Imbue Greater Magic Weapon Overrides the casting before it...it's the same spell, even though all the effects and bonuses are different, and only the most recent one applies.
That +5 does not hand out differing bonuses either. That is why it does not stack. It also specifically calls out a +5 limit, and has anything from the +5 coming out of the same purse for lack of a better word.
It's a fairly universal rule (think Polymorph Self and Alter Self...the bonuses don't stack, only the most recent one) for flexible spells, preventing stacking of the same spell to cumulative effect.
Polymorph effects can't stack though. You can't be a fish and a giant at the same time.
Ergo, he's using His Vindicator Shield power. The point is not that sacred stacks with profane. It's that Vindicator Shield does not stack with Vindicator Shield...they are the same spell. Only the most recent casting would apply.===Aelryinth
Vindicator Shield is not a spell, not that it matters since the same rules would still apply.
Vindicator Shield allows you to use your channel to power your AC. Your channel in turn then provides a particular bonus to your AC. In this case the particular bonuses are different.What is needed is needed is language that says something like-->If you channel positive or negative energy to power the Vindicator Shield the last one takes precedence.
I am trying to think of another ability that potentially provides two bonus types that can be applied at the same time.
Actually, you're both wrong. It says "if you have A ability you get B, if you have X ability you get Y." But the person in question has both A and X, making them capable of getting both B and Y, which isn't mentioned by the ability because normally A and X are mutually exclusive.I agree completely you can gain the ability to put a sacred bonus and a profane bonus on the shield (this is Wraith's being in Paris and New York at the same time).
Despite both bonuses being on the shield, the shield by RAW only gives one of the bonuses to the Vindicator's AC (this is the ability restricting Wraith of only seeing the Statue of Liberty OR the Eiffel Tower, even though he is in both places at the same time).
"when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (...) or profane bonus (...) to his Armor Class"
No where does it ever say...
""when worn, the shield gives the vindicator a sacred bonus (...) and profane bonus (...) to his Armor Class"
By RAI, I think most are in agreement that the intent is that they don't stack. That's enough for me.
Cheers!
I think we all agree on the RAI. We disagree on whether or not it needs errata. :)
With +17 to your Touch AC that might be rather problematic.
==Aelryinth
Activating your class ability twice simply shuts off the first instance.
I say that if the hit would hit your touch AC, you are struck.
I support this view.
How are they getting a +17 touch AC. Profane and Holy are not deflection or dodge bonuses, and nothing states that the ability adds to your touch AC.With +17 to your Touch AC that might be rather problematic.
==Aelryinth
Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus.
It only excludes shield, natural armor and armor bonuses -- not profane or sacred bonuses.
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Personally, I would rule that not only do profane and sacred bonuses not stack, but they actually cancel each other out. So under my ruling, all that twinking resulted in a shield with a +1 profane bonus to AC.
Polymorph effects can't stack though. You can't be a fish and a giant at the same time.
But you can be a giant fish. :P
So I can cast haste 10 times for a +10 to AC?The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
yes cause haste is dodge bonus and dodge bonus stack
So I can cast haste 10 times for a +10 to AC?The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
Nice :).
RAW I guess so since dodge bonuses stack, but not RAI.
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So I can cast haste 10 times for a +10 to AC?The rules say untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack.Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses.
==Aelryinth
Nope, it states in the spell that multiple haste effects do not stack.
Haste
School transmutation; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a shaving of licorice root)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
The transmuted creatures move and act more quickly than normal. This extra speed has several effects.
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature's modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject's normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for increased speed. Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow.
Sweet! So I can make a use-activated item that gives me a +1 dodge bonus to AC for 24 hours, activate it once a round for 10 minutes at the start of the day, and be basically immune to attacks (+60 AC and touch AC) for the entire day. Awesome.
Technically, I would rule that as continuous, not use-activated. (24 hours later you'd have your use back, so calling it "use-activated" is just misleading semantics.)
The ability to apply a continuous effect more than once to the same target would be so prohibitively expensive (due to DM fiat, if nothing else) that I guarantee you you could ransack several kingdoms and never afford such an item. You described what would be essentially a minor artifact, and one that requires nothing from the character in way of skills/feats/class levels. So while I get your point and maybe even agree, you're comparing apples to oranges.
Multiple haste effects don't stack. Haste dispels and counters slow. .
I knew that line was there, but I temperarily went blind I guess. Vindicator's shield needs a similar line.
And it all comes crumbling down to a single magic missle....god I love that spell. It would be even better if it was a toppling maggic missle for a total AC swing of 23.
Oh, so it's not a bonus to the Shield. That means it works against Touch Attacks. heh!
Still, it's all from the same source, and same source doesn't stack, even if different bonuses. He can't have both bonuses active at the same time any more then he could have two of the same bonuses active and overlapping. The most recent one replaces the one before it, as normal for such uses of things.
==Aelryinth
This.
Stacking EffectsSame Effect with Differing Results
The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.
Only the last use of Vindicator's Shield will function