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In almost each and every scenario I remember playing, even the PFS modules, I got only one Perception check to detect the approach of a stealthy NPC (or even a stealthy group of NPC). And that was usually just before the surprise round when the enemy just seems to materialize out of thin air, sometimes in the square adjacent to yours.
In almost each and every scenario I remember playing, even the PFS modules, the stealthy PC got to roll his Stealth vs NPCs' Perception at least once every round if they could hear/see/scent him. And when it was a group of PCs, each and everyone had to succeed on these rolls to avoid discovery.
This is a HUGE discrepancy in favor of NPCs, not to mention a very time-consuming process when a PC tries to sneak on NPCs.
It also results in many groups (including in PFS) just preferring the charging approach to the stealthy one, much to the chagrin of any stealthy PC.
In the coming rehash of the Stealth skill, please find a way to let the sneaking PCs roll once (and only once) to approach their unwitting targets, so that PCs and NPCs can at last play on the same level.
The rules already work the same way for both PCs and NPCs; if a DM runs those rules differently for the different groups, that's not an issue with the rules themselves.
When an NPC group attempts to sneak up on a PC group, each member of the NPC group has to roll Stealth, and each member of the PC group has to roll Perception. Both of these would happen each round if the stealth attempt runs across multiple rounds.
It works the exact same way for PC groups trying to sneak up on NPC groups.
However, remember that most of the time when NPCs use Stealth, it's because they've set up an ambush that the PCs walk into (gaining a large bonus to Stealth for not moving), while when PCs use stealth it's primarily to attempt to sneak past a group of NPCs.
And even in the cases where NPC groups try to actively sneak up on a group of PCs, most of the times those groups wouldn't include a mix of high-stealth Rogues and abysmal-stealth Full-Plate Clerics.
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The rules already work the same way for both PCs and NPCs; if a DM runs those rules differently for the different groups, that's not an issue with the rules themselves.
When an NPC group attempts to sneak up on a PC group, each member of the NPC group has to roll Stealth, and each member of the PC group has to roll Perception. Both of these would happen each round if the stealth attempt runs across multiple rounds.
It works the exact same way for PC groups trying to sneak up on NPC groups.
However, remember that most of the time when NPCs use Stealth, it's because they've set up an ambush that the PCs walk into (gaining a large bonus to Stealth for not moving), while when PCs use stealth it's primarily to attempt to sneak past a group of NPCs.
And even in the cases where NPC groups try to actively sneak up on a group of PCs, most of the times those groups wouldn't include a mix of high-stealth Rogues and abysmal-stealth Full-Plate Clerics.
Sadly, as exemplified by my original post, you still end up with NPCs being both incredibly stealthy and nigh impossible to sneak upon.
That this situation is so common means that the rules as written are not enough to ensure a real equality between PCs and NPCs in the same situation.
Which is why I hope for a rule that will require only one roll from a stealthy character (or group of characters). Note that such a rule will also apply equally to both PCs and NPCs.
Sadly, as exemplified by my original post, you still end up with NPCs being both incredibly stealthy and nigh impossible to sneak upon.
How?
It has just been explained that the rules apply to both parties equally, so wherein lies this 'discrepancy'? - please elaborate how the equal treatment under the rules is favouring the NPCs.
What you are asking for is just to have one roll made as opposed to a few rolls - this doesn't differentiate NPC's or PC's at all, so I'm lost on where you are going with this.
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If your group of PC set up an ambush it should be treated exactly like a group of NPC. Same thing if the NPC are trying to sneak past your group.
As already explained the problem is that your group of PC characters usually has a variety of talents, with low perception an low stealth characters in its middle. Most of the time a group of NPC setting up an ambush is optimized for that, they have good perception and stalth. But they almost certainly lack healing capabilities, spell support and so on.
You trade one thing for the other.
If you want to play on "equal footing" on a stealthy group of NPC you will have to make a stealthy group of PC. That mean that almost certainly you will have to renounce to some of the other advantages of a PC group.
As I allow PC and NPC to take 10 when doing a stealth roll most of the time my NPC are taking 10 to reduce the numbers of rolls, so I make my players roll only when the distance modifier is low enough that the PC can succeed in the opposed perception roll.
As I allow PC and NPC to take 10 when doing a stealth roll most of the time my NPC are taking 10 to reduce the numbers of rolls, so I make my players roll only when the distance modifier is low enough that the PC can succeed in the opposed perception roll.
My GM does this. Only he doesnt allow us to take 10. He doesnt seem to realise the discrepency when they have no chance at dismal failure and we do.
Anyway, there's not much I can contribute that hasn't been said already. Most GMs have a lot on their plate, and many tend to fall flat in areas like this (while I tend to be lacking in foresight and a certain diabolicalness...)
I probably wouldn't ask for more than one stealth roll no matter the circumstances. As they close into an area where the distance modifiers wouldnt apply you can easily just scribble down the stealth score and how close they could get. Alternatively, if your players dont like this method, just demand a reroll as they come into that 30ft. radius?
I think its more a matter of trying to reduce dice rolls than being actively out to get you.
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Just to add:
if the hiding side is "passive" (for example guys waiting in ambush and staying put) I use only one roll.
The ambushers set up their trap and make their roll.
The guys walking into the ambush make their roll. The best modified roll determine when and if they spot the ambush.
If ambushers decide to move around to get to better positions, call for reinforcement through some hard to detect mean and so on, essentially making any action, both side must make a new roll.
Obviously if the guys entering the ambush site are suspecting something and actively searching for sign of an ambush they get to roll every round against the DC of the ambush.
A "passive" perceiving guy (like a soldier on guard duty) generally take 10 in his perception roll, with possible negative situational modifiers. Only if an alarm is raised he will start to be more attentive and roll for detecting something.
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I think its more a matter of trying to reduce dice rolls than being actively out to get you.
I believe so too, but the end result is that in every case I can remember, we indeed rolled Perception only once, while when a PC tried sneaking, the GM asked for a check at least once every round of movement when the PC was close enough for the NPCs to notice.
Needless to say, the probability of failure is astronomically higher in the second case (especially if you have a Small character with a speed of 20', even worse if you are climbing).
Just to add:
if the hiding side is "passive" (for example guys waiting in ambush and staying put) I use only one roll.The ambushers set up their trap and make their roll.
The guys walking into the ambush make their roll. The best modified roll determine when and if they spot the ambush.If ambushers decide to move around to get to better positions, call for reinforcement through some hard to detect mean and so on, essentially making any action, both side must make a new roll.
Obviously if the guys entering the ambush site are suspecting something and actively searching for sign of an ambush they get to roll every round against the DC of the ambush.
A "passive" perceiving guy (like a soldier on guard duty) generally take 10 in his perception roll, with possible negative situational modifiers. Only if an alarm is raised he will start to be more attentive and roll for detecting something.
This is a good solution. However, it is also completely a houserule. I hope for a rewriting that completely kills the discrepancy and makes PCs and NPCs equal in reality as well as theory.
However, remember that most of the time when NPCs use Stealth, it's because they've set up an ambush that the PCs walk into (gaining a large bonus to Stealth for not moving), while when PCs use stealth it's primarily to attempt to sneak past a group of NPCs.
What is the bonus to stealth for not moving in an ambush situation? I've been trying to find something about it in the rules, but I can't. It does seem to me that ambushers who are hidden and not moving should get a big bonus to their stealth.
What is the bonus to stealth for not moving in an ambush situation? I've been trying to find something about it in the rules, but I can't. It does seem to me that ambushers who are hidden and not moving should get a big bonus to their stealth.However, remember that most of the time when NPCs use Stealth, it's because they've set up an ambush that the PCs walk into (gaining a large bonus to Stealth for not moving), while when PCs use stealth it's primarily to attempt to sneak past a group of NPCs.
I would think that the bonus for the ambush resides in the fact that those ambushing have had time to set up and get hidden. If you have a lot of time and are not threatened you can take a 20 on a stealth roll. Which is a bonus. Perhaps they are also getting circumstance bonuses. I'm not sure what the specific instance is, but having prep time is usually advantageous.
What is the bonus to stealth for not moving in an ambush situation? I've been trying to find something about it in the rules, but I can't. It does seem to me that ambushers who are hidden and not moving should get a big bonus to their stealth.There isn't one. Stealth already assumes that your character is standing still, or at most walking very slowly. Sneaking at speed gives you a big penalty, but the reverse isn't true.
Its possible someone's thinking of the greater bonus granted by Invisibility while standing still. It is +40 while standing still as opposed to +20 while moving, which does imply that being still is stealthier than moving.
However, as you've said, there's no actual benefit to standing still for normal stealth.